This is something I've been thinking about lately as a lot of our FC members who joined at the PS4 launch have dinged 50 over the last few weeks. Think about how much has changed since when a lot of us probably hit 50. If you hit level 50 today, you can pretty much immediately unlock all of the following:
-Wanderer's Palace
-Amdapor Keep
-Pharos Sirius
-Lost City of Amdapor
-Haukke Manor HM
-Copperbell Mines HM
-Brayflox Longstop HM
-Halatali HM
-Crystal Tower
(Granted, there are iLVL requirements for some of these but they are very low and easy to hit pretty quick)
Now, as a fresh 50, think about your options for gearing up as soon as you get there. WP and AK drop i55 gear. Pharos, Haukke, and Copperbell drop i60. Brayflox, Halatali, and Amdapor drop i70, or you can buy a set of i70 gear if you've got the cash. Crystal Tower drops i80. All of these drop myth tomes that can be used to purchase i90 gear, or you can spend gil to buy i90 pieces, or you can run the first coil for i90 drops (after a bit of gearing). All of these drop soldiery tomes as well which can be used to purchase i100 gear.
It just seems really odd to me that you instantly have access to a range of 50 iLVLs worth of gear as soon as you ding 50, and I wonder if maybe these things shouldn't be staggered a bit for fresh 50s so that they have to progress their way up to the good stuff. Thinking back to when I first hit 50, I can remember wearing Hoplite pieces for a while as I farmed the tomes needed to get Darklight pieces. At that point I was starting to buy my Valor gear, while supplementing my gear with the odd piece from CT. Then, I could work on buying the i100 stuff. It's a nice reasonable progression... I had to work myself up to the good stuff. Nowadays I don't think that's necessarily the case - since you pretty much unlock everything at once there's no real need to bother with the i55 or i60 stuff when you can pretty much jump straight to i90 or i100.
Now the solution to this is in the game already, it's just not implemented very well... all of these have iLVL requirements to run. If you've ever been paired up with a DPS using a level 46 weapon in Haukke, though, you know that these iLVL requirements are set awfully low. I'd like to see these iLVLs bumped up a bit so that newer players at 50 can work their way up through the gear progression a bit. You can't run the dungeons that drop i60 gear until you've got a few pieces over i50, you can't run the dungeons that drop i70 gear until it's a little bit higher, etc. I think this breathes a bit more life into some of the dungeons at the lower end of the scale (WP/AK, CT), holds players attention over time a bit better (it gives them more to work towards instead of just - BAM - i100), and maybe helps keep lvl 50 from being so overwhelming at first ("I just hit 50, what do I do first?").
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that any of this is negatively impacting my playing of the game in any way. I also realize that there's really no putting that horse back in the barn at this point... it's not likely to change. I'm also aware of the fact that a lot of people will probably disagree with me 100% and think I'm an idiot. I'm just interested in hearing what people think about it.
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Hitting 50 These DaysFollow
You want to be really careful about making it hard to catch up. Even if what you're suggesting might be fine now, think about 3 or 4 patches down the line towards the end of the expansion... you're potentially making a fresh 50 work for months straight just to qualify to do current content.
I just recently came back to the game myself. And while I had a couple darklight pieces rattling around, I was pretty much a fresh 50 for all intents and purposes. Over the last few weeks I've gotten myself to about i80. That's pretty reasonable, and I'm playing very casually too, so that feels like about the right catch-up rate.
Also I did have to go through the progression to do this. I started in WP and AK until I had a little bit more i60 gear and some myth stones. I moved to the tier 1 hard mode dungeons and the hard mode primals as required by my relic quest until I had stuff from there (mostly myth stones). Then I moved to the tier 2 hard modes (expert dungeons) and CT. I still had to go through the process, it just didn't need to take forever to do it.
I just recently came back to the game myself. And while I had a couple darklight pieces rattling around, I was pretty much a fresh 50 for all intents and purposes. Over the last few weeks I've gotten myself to about i80. That's pretty reasonable, and I'm playing very casually too, so that feels like about the right catch-up rate.
Also I did have to go through the progression to do this. I started in WP and AK until I had a little bit more i60 gear and some myth stones. I moved to the tier 1 hard mode dungeons and the hard mode primals as required by my relic quest until I had stuff from there (mostly myth stones). Then I moved to the tier 2 hard modes (expert dungeons) and CT. I still had to go through the process, it just didn't need to take forever to do it.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
You want to be really careful about making it hard to catch up. Even if what you're suggesting might be fine now, think about 3 or 4 patches down the line towards the end of the expansion... you're potentially making a fresh 50 work for months straight just to qualify to do current content.
This is an MMO after all. There should be things for people to do and work for. Allowing people to always be caught up to current content just makes it faster to be finished and get bored.
The roullete helps a ton with lower levels runnng dungeons. As long as its done intelligently it shouldnt be an issue for people to catch up.
The required iLVLs are fine.
The issue isn't the gear, it's the people and their performance. You've seen them and I've seen them: full i90 geared players that pull less damage than would be needed to even get past Demon Wall back in the day during 2.0 - 2.1.
It's a Japanese game and it's tuned fairly well in terms of getting in. That iLVL is fine, with a decent challenge, IF you're actually capable of looking up and refining your job's rotations/performance before you even step in. If you're not keeping up Greased Lightning, or chain casting Fire III, doing nothing once you put up DoTs on SMN, or not even bothering with the Chaos combo on DRG then you're going to have a bad time. They expect a certain level of competence and outside of throwing a small bone like Echo they're not too willing so far to bend over backwards to cater to terrible players.
Plus, despite all the idiots decrying it, Echo only helps groups get over a hurdle to a moderate extent (and is why they've stopped increase Coil's % so far). Knowing your job's mechanics and the fights mean more than any iLVL required to get in at all; if you can't dodge a Landslide 50,000 health isn't going to save you from lethal fall damage nor will it save you from falling off the edge on Leviathan EX.
Requiring a higher iLVL isn't going to change a damned thing.
Edited, May 24th 2014 7:07pm by Viertel
The issue isn't the gear, it's the people and their performance. You've seen them and I've seen them: full i90 geared players that pull less damage than would be needed to even get past Demon Wall back in the day during 2.0 - 2.1.
It's a Japanese game and it's tuned fairly well in terms of getting in. That iLVL is fine, with a decent challenge, IF you're actually capable of looking up and refining your job's rotations/performance before you even step in. If you're not keeping up Greased Lightning, or chain casting Fire III, doing nothing once you put up DoTs on SMN, or not even bothering with the Chaos combo on DRG then you're going to have a bad time. They expect a certain level of competence and outside of throwing a small bone like Echo they're not too willing so far to bend over backwards to cater to terrible players.
Plus, despite all the idiots decrying it, Echo only helps groups get over a hurdle to a moderate extent (and is why they've stopped increase Coil's % so far). Knowing your job's mechanics and the fights mean more than any iLVL required to get in at all; if you can't dodge a Landslide 50,000 health isn't going to save you from lethal fall damage nor will it save you from falling off the edge on Leviathan EX.
Requiring a higher iLVL isn't going to change a damned thing.
Edited, May 24th 2014 7:07pm by Viertel
I wouldn't mind seeing iLevel being a little more restrictive. I've tried doing CT recently to get the BRD hat I don't even need (I really just want to complete the set) and it's some of the most awful runs I've ever done. Most people aren't geared well at all, not even wearing AF or better. They also have no clue about any mechanics and come in expecting to be carried. Not even the first run I ever did, right after the patch when no one knew what to do was this bad. The problem is that people level quick, maybe do the story and then jump right into content that they just aren't ready for. Making them work for better gear to get their iLevel up a bit would go a long way to training new players to just suck less.
Raylo wrote:
It just seems really odd to me that you instantly have access to a range of 50 iLVLs worth of gear as soon as you ding 50, and I wonder if maybe these things shouldn't be staggered a bit for fresh 50s so that they have to progress their way up to the good stuff. Thinking back to when I first hit 50, I can remember wearing Hoplite pieces for a while as I farmed the tomes needed to get Darklight pieces. At that point I was starting to buy my Valor gear, while supplementing my gear with the odd piece from CT. Then, I could work on buying the i100 stuff. It's a nice reasonable progression... I had to work myself up to the good stuff. Nowadays I don't think that's necessarily the case - since you pretty much unlock everything at once there's no real need to bother with the i55 or i60 stuff when you can pretty much jump straight to i90 or i100.
New players today are in a fairly similar situation to where you were when you hit 50. There are some minor differences, but they still have all the same options you did. Collect dungeon equipment (for you, it was hoplite, for them, it's "expert" dungeons or CT), while collecting unlimited tomes to upgrade to tome gear (your darklight, their i90 myth gear) and collecting capped tomes to slowly upgrade to an even higher level (your i90 myth, their i100 soldiery). All that happened was a shift in item levels from every form of content and some minor tweaks to exactly where they fall in terms of progression, though so far it's still uncapped tomes > capped tomes > dungeon drops for the most part.
Granted, they could do what you're proposing and expect people to slowly make their way up the ladder as they create more and more content, but this creates a pretty severe sense of gear gating (you have to do content A so you can do content B so you can do content C so you can do content D so you can...) that only gets worse every time a new batch of content comes out. Not everyone appreciates hitting the max level only to be met with a mountain of old content to wade through before they can try out what's current.
On the other hand, I can see why one might not want to see old content become worthless and for the most part, completely skipped over by both old and new players only months after it has come out, but I don't really see any solid solution to fix all of these issues as long as the game follows a very basic vertical progression model. They can use little tricks like forcing players to run content that they vastly overperform in to complete new quest lines and things like that, but I wouldn't expect a game that builds upon itself with content that stays prosperous and relevant for a great number of players, new or old, under the current FFXIV design.
Viertel wrote:
The required iLVLs are fine.
The issue isn't the gear, it's the people and their performance. You've seen them and I've seen them: full i90 geared players that pull less damage than would be needed to even get past Demon Wall back in the day during 2.0 - 2.1.
It's a Japanese game and it's tuned fairly well in terms of getting in. That iLVL is fine, with a decent challenge, IF you're actually capable of looking up and refining your job's rotations/performance before you even step in. If you're not keeping up Greased Lightning, or chain casting Fire III, doing nothing once you put up DoTs on SMN, or not even bothering with the Chaos combo on DRG then you're going to have a bad time. They expect a certain level of competence and outside of throwing a small bone like Echo they're not too willing so far to bend over backwards to cater to terrible players.
Plus, despite all the idiots decrying it, Echo only helps groups get over a hurdle to a moderate extent (and is why they've stopped increase Coil's % so far). Knowing your job's mechanics and the fights mean more than any iLVL required to get in at all; if you can't dodge a Landslide 50,000 health isn't going to save you from lethal fall damage nor will it save you from falling off the edge on Leviathan EX.
Requiring a higher iLVL isn't going to change a damned thing.
Edited, May 24th 2014 7:07pm by Viertel
The issue isn't the gear, it's the people and their performance. You've seen them and I've seen them: full i90 geared players that pull less damage than would be needed to even get past Demon Wall back in the day during 2.0 - 2.1.
It's a Japanese game and it's tuned fairly well in terms of getting in. That iLVL is fine, with a decent challenge, IF you're actually capable of looking up and refining your job's rotations/performance before you even step in. If you're not keeping up Greased Lightning, or chain casting Fire III, doing nothing once you put up DoTs on SMN, or not even bothering with the Chaos combo on DRG then you're going to have a bad time. They expect a certain level of competence and outside of throwing a small bone like Echo they're not too willing so far to bend over backwards to cater to terrible players.
Plus, despite all the idiots decrying it, Echo only helps groups get over a hurdle to a moderate extent (and is why they've stopped increase Coil's % so far). Knowing your job's mechanics and the fights mean more than any iLVL required to get in at all; if you can't dodge a Landslide 50,000 health isn't going to save you from lethal fall damage nor will it save you from falling off the edge on Leviathan EX.
Requiring a higher iLVL isn't going to change a damned thing.
Edited, May 24th 2014 7:07pm by Viertel
Yeah... I don't think I agree with this. Haukke HM is the perfect example as the final boss there is a DPS check. If you can't bring down the adds fast enough, you will die. Even after the adds are gone, the boss starts doing her whole area covering completely unavoidable charm/stun move and if you can't dps here down fast enough, she will wipe you. Perfect example of this: a couple of weeks ago roulette put me in Haukke HM. I was above i90 at the time, and there was a monk who was also i90+. We were paired with a bard and whm using mostly artifact gear. I remember the bard had a level 46 NQ bow. Neither of them had ever run the dungeon before. I don't know what the actual iLVL requirement for Haukke HM is, but these two had to have just barely made it. Right away I knew that completing the dungeon was going to be an uphill battle but I didn't want to abandon them and I figured I'd give it a chance. We did okay (better than I expected, honestly... I made life easier on the WHM and the MNK was putting out killer damage numbers) and made it to the final boss. We absolutely could not get past here, and we tried 5+ times. The DPS couldn't get the second set of adds down in time, but eventually we were able to change our strategy so that they switched from add to the other leaving it with just little enough HP that we could all survive Blood Rain which gave them enough time to wittle down the other. But even when we got through the adds we couldn't survive her room-wide charm move... she'd charm us all, target the healer with a fireball spell, and one shot him/her (and the bard if he/she was too close). Me and the monk could survive just fine, but once the WHM was dead the two of us couldn't bring the boss down faster than she could kill us. We tried everything we could, used every trick we had in the bag... we just couldn't do it. Finally we just admitted defeat and decided to call it, explaining that it just couldn't work. The BRD actually apologized to us as he knew he was part of the problem, but he figured he had to have been geared enough since the game let him enter. I wasn't mad at him for that exact reason.
Haukke seems to be the worst offender in this regard as none of the other dungeons have such a fierce DPS check. We had a hell of a time getting the adds down enough not to kill us with one DPS at the minimum iLVL and one DPS well above it... you can't convince me that two DPS at the minimum iLVL would have any chance of doing it.
Raylo wrote:
Yeah... I don't think I agree with this. Haukke HM is the perfect example as the final boss there is a DPS check. If you can't bring down the adds fast enough, you will die. Even after the adds are gone, the boss starts doing her whole area covering completely unavoidable charm/stun move and if you can't dps here down fast enough, she will wipe you.
And yet, surprisingly, none of that has anything remotely to do with their gear. If you're at the gear level for Haukke and you *can't* kill the final boss that isn't a gear issue. That's a performance and rotation issue.
Is she difficult? Not really in terms of mechanics, but the damage needed on the adds means the tank needs to pick up the adds instead of ignoring them (performance issue) so that casters aren't interrupted and melee can actually do positionals. Ranged need to know to move and still do damage (Ruin II/Scathe or waiting on a proc --- performance) and melee need to know how to get back in and not lose any pertinent buffs (Greased Lightning -- performance).
Absolutely none of that is related to gear. At all.
Raylo wrote:
Perfect example of this: a couple of weeks ago roulette put me in Haukke HM. I was above i90 at the time, and there was a monk who was also i90+. We were paired with a bard and whm using mostly artifact gear. I remember the bard had a level 46 NQ bow....... We did okay (better than I expected, honestly... I made life easier on the WHM and the MNK was putting out killer damage numbers) and made it to the final boss. We absolutely could not get past here, and we tried 5+ times.
You had an i90 MNK post melee adjustments. Even if the Bard was dinking around if the boss wouldn't die he wasn't doing "killer damage". Even at that low level a Bard can easily do 120-150 and a MNK of that gear should be doing, bare minimum, 200 if they're terrible at movement fights (a lot of dodging AoE so being generous). Even the NQ bow (lack of GC weapon is dumb but whatever) should have still put the BRD at enough to easily wipe the floor.
Crap gear + crap player = bad situation. Crap gear + good player = more than enough to get by.
If you couldn't kill the adds gear wouldn't have helped much more. That's a performance problem.
Raylo wrote:
Haukke seems to be the worst offender in this regard as none of the other dungeons have such a fierce DPS check.
Except that she isn't that much of a DPS check so much as being able to hop on the adds as soon as possible check -- performance. In fact, if you have *too* much damage going out she can literally spawn the final add and instantly eat it, wiping the floor with you anyway.
The iLVLs aren't the problem. The people are.
Quote:
but the damage needed on the adds means the tank needs to pick up the adds instead of ignoring them (performance issue) so that casters aren't interrupted and melee can actually do positionals
...which I absolutely was, but way to make an assumption!
Quote:
If you couldn't kill the adds gear wouldn't have helped much more.
We *could* get through the adds (barely), which I mentioned but evidently you didn't bother to read. What we *couldn't* get through was the fact that once she started using Beguiling Mist and throwing fireballs she was one shotting our WHM and BRD (with stoneskin up). Not really sure what else we could've done there,but whatever, I'm sure we were just performing terribly, right?
...and like I said, that was only with 2/4 people at the minimum iLVL. With a full party of people at the minimum iLVL it would only go way worse.
I don't know, is this like your way of beating your chest or something? Trying to convince yourself it's not your gear that affects your performance so much as you're just that much better than everyone else? "It's not my gear, I'm just awesome at this game." Whatever...
Raylo wrote:
...which I absolutely was, but way to make an assumption! 
It was a generalized statement. If *you* bothered to read you'll notice I listed several examples, as when I'm not tanking it's as though tanks can't be bothered to pick them up.
Assumptions indeed.
Raylo wrote:
We *could* get through the adds (barely), which I mentioned but evidently you didn't bother to read. What we *couldn't* get through was the fact that once she started using Beguiling Mist and throwing fireballs she was one shotting our WHM and BRD (with stoneskin up). Not really sure what else we could've done there,but whatever, I'm sure we were just performing terribly, right?
Considering that the attack won't do more health than *BOTH* of those with Stoneskin and Protect? No, you're just talking out of your ***. It does about 2-2.2K. I seriously doubt somehow, with base health and minor amounts of VIT AND stoneskin, that they're getting one-shot. It flat out doesn't happen.
Raylo wrote:
I don't know, is this like your way of beating your chest or something? Trying to convince yourself it's not your gear that affects your performance so much as you're just that much better than everyone else? "It's not my gear, I'm just awesome at this game." Whatever... 
No, it's the fact that you seem to believe gear will magically solve people performing badly. It won't, and it never has. Titan Extreme DF should have pointed this out clearly enough.
Edited, May 25th 2014 1:28pm by Viertel
You want to see a really good example of performance vs gear? Do T4. I assure you, i90 doesn't mean anything other than you were good at farming currency or get carried often. Gear is important, yes, but if you can't dodge or are unfortunate with your internet connection speed/hardware you play the game on and lag, then even 15% echo on top of food and i90 gear isn't going to get you a win.
Some bosses just require strategy. Not knowing the strategy makes your ilv irrelevant. Remember the good old days in FFXI, when these arguments were reversed? These Player vs Gear debates never get old.
Some bosses just require strategy. Not knowing the strategy makes your ilv irrelevant. Remember the good old days in FFXI, when these arguments were reversed? These Player vs Gear debates never get old.
Quote:
Considering that the attack won't do more health than *BOTH* of those with Stoneskin and Protect? No, you're just talking out of your ***. It does about 2-2.2K. I seriously doubt somehow, with base health and minor amounts of VIT AND stoneskin, that they're getting one-shot. It flat out doesn't happen.
I saw what I saw, dude. And just to make sure I wasn't crazy I DF'd Haukke today and paid particular attention to how much damage our healer took(who had about 4k hp so had to have been well above the minimum iLVL requirement) and she took 2900 from the fireball (with protect for sure, didn't notice whether Adlo was up). Gotta figure that means someone right at the minimum iLVL can definitely be one shotted by it since they'd probably be around what, 2800 hp?
Quote:
No, it's the fact that you seem to believe gear will magically solve people performing badly. It won't, and it never has.
I fail to see how being hit by a charm move that is unavoidable and being oneshotted by a fireball right afterwards even with stoneskin up is a reflection of that healer's performance, but whatever. Clearly they were just terrible...
Quote:
You want to see a really good example of performance vs gear? Do T4. I assure you, i90 doesn't mean anything other than you were good at farming currency or get carried often. Gear is important, yes, but if you can't dodge or are unfortunate with your internet connection speed/hardware you play the game on and lag, then even 15% echo on top of food and i90 gear isn't going to get you a win.
Actually I was in a T4 farm party the other night... it was my first time doing in probably 2 months and was definitely my first time doing it with the echo. Some of our runs were far from perfect (people in the wrong position, aggro problems, wrong kill order in a particular phase) and we still managed to clear it no problem whatsoever every time. The upgraded gear definitely helps and the echo buff even more so. I was actually really surprised at how easy it has become because it used to kick our butts.
Edited, May 25th 2014 4:23pm by Raylo
Exodus wrote:
You want to see a really good example of performance vs gear? Do T4. I assure you, i90 doesn't mean anything other than you were good at farming currency or get carried often. Gear is important, yes, but if you can't dodge or are unfortunate with your internet connection speed/hardware you play the game on and lag, then even 15% echo on top of food and i90 gear isn't going to get you a win.
Some bosses just require strategy. Not knowing the strategy makes your ilv irrelevant. Remember the good old days in FFXI, when these arguments were reversed? These Player vs Gear debates never get old.
Some bosses just require strategy. Not knowing the strategy makes your ilv irrelevant. Remember the good old days in FFXI, when these arguments were reversed? These Player vs Gear debates never get old.
I don't know, I joined several groups for T4 to get a few pieces for my mnk and war and went at least 30/30 with several groups. Was there a general strategy? Sure. Was it followed properly, hardly. With i90 for everyone and 15% echo buff, mobs were dropping so fast, they don't have time to dmg enough people for the healers to get in a bad spot. Not to mention, the tank can easily handle all the dreads with very little worry of being 1-2 shot.
It's definitely become a need 5-6 people doing their job properly vs all 8 have to be on point to win.
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I don't know, I joined several groups for T4 to get a few pieces for my mnk and war and went at least 30/30 with several groups. Was there a general strategy? Sure. Was it followed properly, hardly. With i90 for everyone and 15% echo buff, mobs were dropping so fast, they don't have time to dmg enough people for the healers to get in a bad spot. Not to mention, the tank can easily handle all the dreads with very little worry of being 1-2 shot.
It's definitely become a need 5-6 people doing their job properly vs all 8 have to be on point to win.
It's definitely become a need 5-6 people doing their job properly vs all 8 have to be on point to win.
I'd second this. I've had friends who haven't been playing a lot lately come back and do a little T4 farming and they were laughing about how easy it's become now. I've had groups that have no coordination whatsoever (half the damage dealers think we're doing one strategy and half think we're doing another), I've had groups where a member disconnects, and it generally doesn't matter. We still win just fine. And this is with mostly pickup players. IIRC, SE actually mentioned on the official forums that they opted not to increase the echo buff in coil further due to the ease at which players have been clearing the content with the current echo buff in place, so that should only further put into perspective how much of an effect it's had.
Raylo wrote:
Now the solution to this is in the game already, it's just not implemented very well... all of these have iLVL requirements to run. If you've ever been paired up with a DPS using a level 46 weapon in Haukke, though, you know that these iLVL requirements are set awfully low. I'd like to see these iLVLs bumped up a bit so that newer players at 50 can work their way up through the gear progression a bit.
I will agree that I am surprised there aren't more iLvl restrictions on certain content. I have gone through the nerfed version of Pharos where we couldn't win the Siren fight because the healer was simply under-geared and couldn't keep up with preventing the charm effect through which we kept killing each other.
But at the same time, I was surprised I could tank the final boss of CT wearing AF and armed with only an HQ Mailbreaker. It's sometimes surprising what you can do even when you don't have the ideal gear for it. It certainly makes for a more thrilling win than simply sleeping through a fight with overwhelming force, at least.
That said, apart from getting a good weapon, all you really need is CT to get geared up when you're freshly at 50. Even as a tank, you can take on anything in there. The iLvl 80 gear you get is a great start for when you're ready to move on to the harder stuff, and you can use the currency drops for some cheap Myth accessories.
Well, this would be pointless.
Needing ilvl gear x before being able to advance to the next tier...
What if no one runs old content anymore, we already have that problem now with any dungeon that isnt brayflox. When was the last time you ran through Pharaos Sirius? Heck, Cutter's Cry? Or even Copperbell Mines (Hard)?
If you're a fresh 50 in your scenario, you wont ever be able to get any current level gear anymore since you need to advance through tiers. You'd be stuck there till you quit. Imagine being a Fresh lv.50 tank? You wont be able to keep hate off anyone then, and thus wont be able to do even later dungeons.
Atleast now with points and some work you can get the second/third best tier of items. You wont be unbeatable, but atleast you can do things and work towards the better things :/
Needing ilvl gear x before being able to advance to the next tier...
What if no one runs old content anymore, we already have that problem now with any dungeon that isnt brayflox. When was the last time you ran through Pharaos Sirius? Heck, Cutter's Cry? Or even Copperbell Mines (Hard)?
If you're a fresh 50 in your scenario, you wont ever be able to get any current level gear anymore since you need to advance through tiers. You'd be stuck there till you quit. Imagine being a Fresh lv.50 tank? You wont be able to keep hate off anyone then, and thus wont be able to do even later dungeons.
Atleast now with points and some work you can get the second/third best tier of items. You wont be unbeatable, but atleast you can do things and work towards the better things :/
[XI] Surivere of Valefor
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
KojiroSoma wrote:
Well, this would be pointless.
Needing ilvl gear x before being able to advance to the next tier...
What if no one runs old content anymore, we already have that problem now with any dungeon that isnt brayflox. When was the last time you ran through Pharaos Sirius? Heck, Cutter's Cry? Or even Copperbell Mines (Hard)?
If you're a fresh 50 in your scenario, you wont ever be able to get any current level gear anymore since you need to advance through tiers. You'd be stuck there till you quit. Imagine being a Fresh lv.50 tank? You wont be able to keep hate off anyone then, and thus wont be able to do even later dungeons.
Atleast now with points and some work you can get the second/third best tier of items. You wont be unbeatable, but atleast you can do things and work towards the better things :/
Needing ilvl gear x before being able to advance to the next tier...
What if no one runs old content anymore, we already have that problem now with any dungeon that isnt brayflox. When was the last time you ran through Pharaos Sirius? Heck, Cutter's Cry? Or even Copperbell Mines (Hard)?
If you're a fresh 50 in your scenario, you wont ever be able to get any current level gear anymore since you need to advance through tiers. You'd be stuck there till you quit. Imagine being a Fresh lv.50 tank? You wont be able to keep hate off anyone then, and thus wont be able to do even later dungeons.
Atleast now with points and some work you can get the second/third best tier of items. You wont be unbeatable, but atleast you can do things and work towards the better things :/
I guess my view is based on two thoughts:
1) You won't be the only person running those things because there will be other players in the same boat as you, PLUS duty roulette will fill any gaps with higher level players.
2) If you're a fresh 50 tank it might actually be beneficial to you to party with players around the same iLVL as you where you will have an easier time managing hate than it would be to get stuck in a high level dungeon with DPS that are 30-40 iLVLs higher than you where you're going to really be struggling.
Quote:
You want to be really careful about making it hard to catch up. Even if what you're suggesting might be fine now, think about 3 or 4 patches down the line towards the end of the expansion... you're potentially making a fresh 50 work for months straight just to qualify to do current content.
And you make it meaningless to play in the current way.
Seriously, it removes all motivation to play the latest content knowing it will all be nerfed to holy hell in 2 months and be casual fodder.
I'm not even motivated to max iLVL currently because of all the echo bs. I like the thinking but hate the implementation. You bust your balls getting 1 job to 90. new patch hits and you can get a job to 90 in 2 days.... Whats the point?
And what is the point to a new player of having all this content that has no purpose? When you hit 50, why ever do WP? Why do AK? Why do CT? Why do Primal EX? Just buy the craftable ilvl 70 gear with the money you earned from the story, get your relic in a day, then queue for DF Coil. Voila, you are as good as me now!
Edited, May 31st 2014 2:33am by Louiscool
[ffxivsig]1183812[/ffxivsig]
Quote:
And what is the point to a new player of having all this content that has no purpose? When you hit 50, why ever do WP? Why do AK? Why do CT? Why do Primal EX? Just buy the craftable ilvl 70 gear with the money you earned from the story, get your relic in a day, then queue for DF Coil. Voila, you are as good as me now!
When I came back to the game after several months, I did WP and AK. Not just for the gear but for the tomestones. Even though the tomestone gear is better than both of those dungeons, the gear that drops in there helped bridge some gaps and fill in missing pieces I didn't have. I still had to do the ilvl progression, I just got to do it faster and catch up to current content.
The primary reason I caution people about wanting catching up to be too hard is because when catching up is hard, endgame dies. Endgame communities are largely a zero-sum or negative-sum game when it comes to player burnout. Let me give you a WoW example...
Sunwell Plateau. Final tier of BC. Guilds losing players to burnout, but catching up for a fresh 70 was nearly impossible as it required progression through the entire rest of the expansion's raid content first (which meant having guilds that were doing that content). So while guilds in Sunwell were able to transfer players around a bit, as players dropped off there were no new players to replace them (or at least not enough to meet the demand). Guilds died because of this phenomenon and it led to Blizzard implementing better catch-up mechanisms in the following expansions.
Endgame can't be this gated community that no one can enter without the proper papers and three recommendations. It has to be easy to reach or it dies. Once reached, the current content can go ahead and be hard, that's perfectly fine, it just can't be as hard to get to.
NB: Let me also say that I'm not crazy about the Echo buff in the first Coil. You can reach it easily enough and progress through it without the Echo being there. Maybe if they'd waited until the third Coil was released to nerf just the first Coil, that might've been a better choice.
Edited, May 31st 2014 11:14pm by Callinon
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
And what is the point to a new player of having all this content that has no purpose? When you hit 50, why ever do WP? Why do AK? Why do CT? Why do Primal EX? Just buy the craftable ilvl 70 gear with the money you earned from the story, get your relic in a day, then queue for DF Coil. Voila, you are as good as me now!
When I came back to the game after several months, I did WP and AK. Not just for the gear but for the tomestones. Even though the tomestone gear is better than both of those dungeons, the gear that drops in there helped bridge some gaps and fill in missing pieces I didn't have. I still had to do the ilvl progression, I just got to do it faster and catch up to current content.
The primary reason I caution people about wanting catching up to be too hard is because when catching up is hard, endgame dies. Endgame communities are largely a zero-sum or negative-sum game when it comes to player burnout. Let me give you a WoW example...
Sunwell Plateau. Final tier of BC. Guilds losing players to burnout, but catching up for a fresh 70 was nearly impossible as it required progression through the entire rest of the expansion's raid content first (which meant having guilds that were doing that content). So while guilds in Sunwell were able to transfer players around a bit, as players dropped off there were no new players to replace them (or at least not enough to meet the demand). Guilds died because of this phenomenon and it led to Blizzard implementing better catch-up mechanisms in the following expansions.
Endgame can't be this gated community that no one can enter without the proper papers and three recommendations. It has to be easy to reach or it dies. Once reached, the current content can go ahead and be hard, that's perfectly fine, it just can't be as hard to get to.
NB: Let me also say that I'm not crazy about the Echo buff in the first Coil. You can reach it easily enough and progress through it without the Echo being there. Maybe if they'd waited until the third Coil was released to nerf just the first Coil, that might've been a better choice.
Edited, May 31st 2014 11:14pm by Callinon
Nailed it. Well said.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
And what is the point to a new player of having all this content that has no purpose? When you hit 50, why ever do WP? Why do AK? Why do CT? Why do Primal EX? Just buy the craftable ilvl 70 gear with the money you earned from the story, get your relic in a day, then queue for DF Coil. Voila, you are as good as me now!
When I came back to the game after several months, I did WP and AK. Not just for the gear but for the tomestones. Even though the tomestone gear is better than both of those dungeons, the gear that drops in there helped bridge some gaps and fill in missing pieces I didn't have. I still had to do the ilvl progression, I just got to do it faster and catch up to current content.
The primary reason I caution people about wanting catching up to be too hard is because when catching up is hard, endgame dies. Endgame communities are largely a zero-sum or negative-sum game when it comes to player burnout. Let me give you a WoW example...
Did FFXI lose endgame players for forcing progression instead of handing the keys to new content over? No.
Imagine if you could go right into Sky without completing Zilart, Not need to complete the CoP questline to unlock Sea, and every time they did this, the gear you worked so hard to unlock was outclassed by a new set that was just slightly better than the old one, with no gear decisions or sidegrades.
The current endgame is a recipe for burning out. Hold out a steak in front of your dogs, then hand that steak to the puppies, eventually you're gonna get your hand bit.
[ffxivsig]1183812[/ffxivsig]
I wasn't aware that you no longer had to progress through the storyline in XIV in order to access endgame content.
Catwho wrote:
I wasn't aware that you no longer had to progress through the storyline in XIV in order to access endgame content.
List of obsolete content that you are in no way required to do to obtain the best gear currently available:
Halitali
Sunken Temple of Qarn
Cutter's Cry
Darkhold
Aurum Vale
Wanderer's Palace
Copperbell Hard
Haukke Hard
Pahros Sirius
Halitali Hard
Lost City of Amdapor
Crystal Tower
Amdapor Keep needs to be done 1 time for relic, primals 1 time for relic, then you are free to grind Coil. Brayflox isn't required, except for soldiery and myth grinding, but it would just be easier to buy the ilvl 70 gear to meet the coil requirements.
Coil is the only content that is done right, in that you can't access the Second turn until clearing it, and has high gear reqs.
But yeah, the storyline is a tough 7 hours...
Edited, Jun 3rd 2014 10:00am by Louiscool
[ffxivsig]1183812[/ffxivsig]
What I'm seeing is anyone that is not already playing FFXIV is not likely to become a long-time active player.
The casuals trickling in are hitting End-Game, have no chance at all on Titan and then they quit. There are exceptions I'm sure, but this seemingly casual-friendly-fun-game has a learning curve that just smacks you in the face. I haven't seen any players that weren't playing at launch participating in anything other than leveling up. Then they disappear.
The casuals trickling in are hitting End-Game, have no chance at all on Titan and then they quit. There are exceptions I'm sure, but this seemingly casual-friendly-fun-game has a learning curve that just smacks you in the face. I haven't seen any players that weren't playing at launch participating in anything other than leveling up. Then they disappear.
Louiscool wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I wasn't aware that you no longer had to progress through the storyline in XIV in order to access endgame content.
List of obsolete content that you are in no way required to do to obtain the best gear currently available:
Halitali
Sunken Temple of Qarn
Cutter's Cry
Darkhold
Aurum Vale
Wanderer's Palace
Copperbell Hard
Haukke Hard
Pahros Sirius
Halitali Hard
Lost City of Amdapor
Crystal Tower
Amdapor Keep needs to be done 1 time for relic, primals 1 time for relic, then you are free to grind Coil. Brayflox isn't required, except for soldiery and myth grinding, but it would just be easier to buy the ilvl 70 gear to meet the coil requirements.
Coil is the only content that is done right, in that you can't access the Second turn until clearing it, and has high gear reqs.
But yeah, the storyline is a tough 7 hours...
Edited, Jun 3rd 2014 10:00am by Louiscool
I'm sorry, but you've oversimplified things.
You can't skip any of that stuff. A fresh 50 isn't suddenly able to run Coil as soon as they ding.. it doesn't work that way. The non-story dungeons you've listed above are still required for your GC promotions which, make no mistake, are not going away. The high-level dungeons are done repeatedly in roulettes for tomestones while gearing up towards current content levels. And Crystal Tower is still a great stepping stone to fill in gear gaps (and is still done by quite a lot of people right now).
I'm actually a little surprised you didn't list Turns 1-5 in there too as they only drop i90 gear and not i110.
Also 7 hours for the entire story? What? You can't possibly be serious with that number.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Yeeeeaaah a fresh 50 player with just the relic weapon who is in AF and who doesn't have the cash to buy iLvl 70 gear off the market boards is not going into Coil right off the bat. The game won't let you.
Hell, I still can't run Titan EX on my week old BLM because iLvl 66 isn't high enough!
Hell, I still can't run Titan EX on my week old BLM because iLvl 66 isn't high enough!
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