The Wyvern DilemmaFollow

Interesting tidbit in this IGN interview with Yoshi-P.

When asked if dragoons in XIV would be getting wyverns, this was his response:



Looks like they're hesitant to implement wyvern pets because they don't want to water down the dragoon job, which currently provides very solid DPS. I didn't play dragoon in XI, but from what I recall, the common criticism of the job seemed to be the wyvern made them great soloers, but their DPS was compromised because of the actual player's output being balanced with a pet.

So, the question is... is Yoshi-P right to not implement wyverns because of this?

What other powers could wyverns offer without a) unbalancing DRG's DPS capabilities or b) making DRG overpowered?

Would the playerbase stand for a wyvern that's purely cosmetic?

An attack every now and then shouldnt be game breaking, but at the same time it wont really be beneficial to have it to that either.

I'm not a dragoon myself, but if they were to give you a wyvern only to have it not do anything or attack once a minute for half your weapon damage with a breath attack or so, i'd probably be equally as put off as i would have been not having one entirely.

It's probably best not to have it than to have an half-assed version of it that isnt useful in the slightest. Since, as said, if they would have made it usefull, they would have to nerf dragoon into oblivion. While i, since i dont play dragoon, would be fine with that entirely. I dont think that thought is shared by actual players of the job.

Didn't stop them from watering down Summoner and calling it a Summoner for example, it's designed 99% around the "Summoner" and not the egis, egis...Garuda....has a nice support ability for the "Summoner" but let's be real, you can function completely fine with or without an egi and that shouldn't be the case for a pet job. I think with this game's battle system though..it would be pretty weird to have since DRG was perfectly fine until they tried to nerf Penta Thrust and multi hit WS TP return in XI, so they could easily add it.

I've played DRG in XI and when they introduced monsters that disliked piercing damage, e.g Colibri, that didn't stop people falling all over themselves trying to soak up every DRG that existed on your server for their Merit parties, it wasn't until post nerf and many end-game enemies not having piercing weakness but strength against did DRG's Damage suffer. While you do want to keep things balanced, Yoshi has a weird ideology of what is and isn't balance. For example when someone brought up BRD having songs that benefit melee as well he stated basically you have to even further gimp BRD to add even a few % of damage boost to other classes when that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, especially with such a simplistic battle system as this one.

DRG were great soloers because of the Wyvern pet and also decent support (especially in newer updates) but it was just an extension of the DRG's damage since it was there mainly to do additional breath damage based on monster weakness or curing breaths based on your subjob.

I miss Beastmaster and Dragoon from FFXI. I only played them into Chains of Promethea but all BST parties were pretty awesome in Chains and I loved soloing Oozes (puddings, or whatever they were called) in the Sewers or Bombs.

That being said this is a new game and I'd like to see new, interesting, implementations of the oddball FF classes (BST, Chemist, Pirate, Puppetmaster, Dancer, etc).

Also, there is nothing stopping them from adding a Pokeball Wyvern on a long cooldown as we get higher levels.

You parse lower? Cool, but is SMN utterly useless without their egi? It's not the pets pushing out the DoTs and Fester for example, which is why Garuda is pretty much the only useful egi in the long run because it extends your DPS greatly. In order for a proper comparison, DRG would have to lose their jumps (thus taking away what DRGs were known for..) for example. You lose some DPS but your egis aren't that crucial in terms of design with Garuda arguably being the most useful for obvious reasons outside of her own DPS added to yours. (when we're referring to FF summoners, the focus is more on the summons), we can all admit the summoner we have is just a retag of a WoW class.

So yes, it's acceptable design when you realize it's not an actual summoner.

It seems to me in a game with DPS checks losing 1/3rd of your DPS would make you if not useless then a major impediment to completing content.

What do you think the proper balance would be for a pet class? 50/50? 10/90? I know, for me, in games where the pet is 50% or more of my damage that I tend to not play them because inevitably the pet AI causes it to get killed and then it means that I really am worthless without it.

If it is just a matter of flavor, why not change the DRG limit break to summon the Wyvern for an attack instead of the current acrobatics?

I'm fine with dragoon not having a wyvern pet, not just from a balance standpoint but also because I don't really find it to be a staple for the job in the FF series. FFXI's dragoon was an interesting take on the job but I wouldn't say it needs to be the standard going forward.

Dragoon is actually one of the slightly more faithful jobs to the FF series in this game IMO. If I were to try and make this game feel more like a Final Fantasy title through job tweaks, I'd sooner take a look at jobs like summoner, which feels more like a DoT caster with a Tamagotchi pet than what I'd expect from a real summoner, or bard, a job which the vast majority of its skills and virtually all of its equipment are specifically tailored for archery.

I'd say THF was more difficult to master than DRG. I had both at 75 cap back in the day and I know that THF for me was far more complicated. Definitely not saying DRG was easy to play though.

Personally, I'd like to see the wyvern built more as a support to the DRG if they do add it. Like, give it some buffs that change situationally, such as an attack speed aura that happens whenever you're hit with a DoT, or an added effect proc whenever you critically hit, or just stuff like that. Small things that aren't gamebreaking, but still give the wyvern a uniqueness. It'd be cool if these were tied to different wyvern animations as well so that it really brought some synergy between DRG and pet. That's assuming this ever happens of course.

Could make everyone happy by adding a divergent path for DRG's with a wyvern at level 30. So that class could be Dragoon Master (DRM) and would have a pet with damage.

Just as long as both jobs have STR as the main stat (to avoid the SCH/SMN mess).

Generally adding more options without taking anything away has been the most successful in making all the players happy.

I was deep into this debate when Dragoon was offers as a Job for 1.0's addition of it and my stance has not changed.

I am adamantly opposed to the idea of a Wyvern becoming a core mechanic of the class in any form. Just as Yoshida has provided, anything that would promote having the pet as in the class detracts directly from the Dragoon.

It's also thematically conflicting - Dragoons in this game are listed specifically as Dragon Slayers, and the primary storyline revolves around tempering against the inner dragon that could easily usurp you, even as you rouse your powers.

This said, I don't understand the context of having this discussion be an exclusive issue. We already have a solution within the existing confines of the game's mechanics, without any need for class/job adjustments. It's called our Companion system. It already has an integrated leveling component that allows for the use of an additional member of the party accessible in field/solo situations - it can be utilized much in the way players who gain exclusive mounts by leveling certain classes (or in the case of tanks, assisting as certain classes/jobs) and can be provided with it's own progression system.

Sorry if the text tone is rather aggressive, but I do feel strongly that FFXIV's incarnation of Dragoon is actually in a good place right now, both mechanically and thematically, and I don't wish major changes on it at all.

Hm. It occurs to me that a melee pet class would be hard to implement well without a major redesign of the pet AI or damage taken. So much of the game revolves around dodging. A pet would have to either dodge with you instantly, or take massively reduced damage from AoE (like in WoW.)

Wait until new skills are added for each class and job. Make the new DRG skill a DPS cool down that summons a wyvern for 20 to 30th with a 2 or 3 minute CD. Tie the moves the DRG does into the wyvern, with DFD maybe doing a big flame sweep and SSD causing a bad breath - debuffing attack OR something. Each DRG move would equate to something different the wyvern does in addition to its regular AA, which would probably be set at about 150 potency at max.

They could even tie in sub skills to what the wyvern does. BB makes all damage the wyvern does heal the party for 25% of that damage. Foresight provides a party-wide defense boost. Fracture would trigger another dot while IR could buff group crit rate by 10% for the duration. Second wind would cause the wyvern to breath a healing breath on the DRG and nearby friendlies for twice the SW heal amount.

It would be a short term damage/utility buff that shines in clutch situations like DPS checks or recovering after unavoidable damage. The DRG is also now putting forth higher damage as well as potentially buffing himself and his team, but it's being done in a way that doesn't upset balance right now.

Edited, May 22nd 2014 1:52pm by Quor