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Weathered accessory + Oil/Sand version together?Follow

#1 May 09 2014 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.
#2 May 09 2014 at 2:12 PM Rating: Default
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ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.


Giving up 2 INT due to minor secondary stats is foolish.
#3 May 09 2014 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.


Giving up 2 INT due to minor secondary stats is foolish.


Giving up 2 int 2 acc (you should already be at cap) and 13 spell speed (irrelevant for non spell speed build) for 12 crit is foolish? News to me.

I don't really care for a critique, I just want to know if you can wear both.
#4 May 09 2014 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
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ChoochZero wrote:
Viertel wrote:
ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.


Giving up 2 INT due to minor secondary stats is foolish.


Giving up 2 int .... is foolish? News to me.

I don't really care for a critique, I just want to know if you can wear both.


Yes, giving up 2 INT *is* foolish.

And if you want to remain ignorant that's your perogative. However, you stated BiS and unless both rings are i110 due to scaling with primary stat on any job they aren't your BiS no matter what build you're trying to make.

End of discussion.
#5 May 09 2014 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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2 main stat won't push your damage as much as 2 magic damage would, for example. I haven't tried it since I have other stuff to spend Soli on atm instead of rebuying stuff i already had but I guess I'll try next week.

Giving up 2 acc if it takes you out of "acc cap" is foolish, yes, but 2 INT isn't that make or break. You can potentially argue giving up your allocation as follish as 30 INT can be noticeable when you're undergeared. Luckily for people who love XIV, stats don't mean a whole lot in terms of secondary effects.
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#6 May 09 2014 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
ChoochZero wrote:
Viertel wrote:
ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.


Giving up 2 INT due to minor secondary stats is foolish.


Giving up 2 int .... is foolish? News to me.

I don't really care for a critique, I just want to know if you can wear both.


Yes, giving up 2 INT *is* foolish.

And if you want to remain ignorant that's your perogative. However, you stated BiS and unless both rings are i110 due to scaling with primary stat on any job they aren't your BiS no matter what build you're trying to make.

End of discussion.


I stated "Depending on build....it SEEMS" but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.

According to Puro spreadsheet, 12 crit is equivalent to over 2 Int so.....what am I missing then, no other relevant things considered? Why is High Allagan + Evenstar better than Weathered + Evenstar? It's 2 Int vs 12Crit...is there a crit cap you hit? If you want to talk down, back up your reasoning at least.

Item level is irrelevant if the stats aren't better; Atma and Zenith have identical stats but I guess Atma is magically better because it's i100 and "scales" with primary stat better somehow? Yeah ok.
#7 May 09 2014 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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So can he wear both or not?
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#8 May 10 2014 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Stilivan wrote:
So can he wear both or not?

I don't see why not. They're two different items.
#9 May 10 2014 at 2:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Sure you can wear both.

BiS? No. 2 INT + 13 SSPD >>> 12 CRIT

Edit:

ChoochZero wrote:
Giving up 2 int 2 acc (you should already be at cap) and 13 spell speed (irrelevant for non spell speed build) for 12 crit is foolish? News to me.

I don't really care for a critique, I just want to know if you can wear both.


If you don't care for a critique, don't blather on about crap you obviously don't understand. SSPD does not somehow become magically 'irrelvant' for a crit build. You would have experience with this I assume? I built a crit build before obtaining my Laevateinn and was at 375 SSPD. I'd love to see you try turn 9 with such low spell speed and high movement.

Since you took the time to look up stat weights, you'd realize that 1 SSPD ~= 1 CRIT ~= 1 DET for BLMs. Ideally, all three should be in balance: stacking either to the extreme ends up with very poor returns.

Just so you're aware from Puro's chart: he has listed that 1 SSPD = 0.258 INT and 1 CRIT = 0.26 INT.

12 crit ~= .26*12 = 3.12 INT
13 SSPD ~= .258*13 = 3.354 INT

2 INT + 3.354 INT (13 SSPD) > 3.12 INT (12 crit)

AKA

5.354 INT > 3.12 INT

Considering SSPD actually reduces your GCD on spells it's more like:

5.354 INT + reduction in GCD > 3.12 INT

But what would I know. I've only parsed both builds for several weeks doing T6-T9 progression. You'll also notice that Puro has HA ring + Evenstar listed as BiS.

Theonehio wrote:
2 main stat won't push your damage as much as 2 magic damage would, for example. I haven't tried it since I have other stuff to spend Soli on atm instead of rebuying stuff i already had but I guess I'll try next week.
d
Giving up 2 acc if it takes you out of "acc cap" is foolish, yes, but 2 INT isn't that make or break. You can potentially argue giving up your allocation as follish as 30 INT can be noticeable when you're undergeared. Luckily for people who love XIV, stats don't mean a whole lot in terms of secondary effects.


Please stop preaching mediocrity. It was rather annoying in XI, it's not any better here. This is the second time I've seen you state this BS.

Why don't you just go naked or spec 30 into VIT if it matters so little? If 30 INT wasn't such a big loss, you'd see similar DPS on casters in i90 gear with i110 weapons compared to casters in i100-110 gear and i110 weapons. My training dummy tells me you're a little off base considering the difference is around 30 DPS.

"No no...30 DPS doesn't matter." Uh, yes it does. T7 has a 'soft' enrage (easily met) but T8 has a strict hard enrage and is meant to be a huge DPS wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

Edited, May 11th 2014 8:50am by HitomeOfBismarck
#10 May 10 2014 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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That's also not going into the mathematics behind the fact that while stacking anyone stat on BLM is doinitrong the fact remains if you *were* going to stack one stat to the detriment of others it should be Spell Speed. Point for point there are only linear returns on the stats/scaling system they're currently using at the moment.

Mathematically? It's a bit different. Every point of spell speed gives a higher percentage return in damage the previous one. Critical hit gives a lesser percentage of return than the previous one before it. This isn't diminishing returns in say WoW terms in regards to Parry/Dodge but more the fact that as you gain more crit, each bit is worth less in less. As you cast faster each point becomes worth more than the point before it until you hit whatever minimum GCD value they've coded into the game (1.0, 1.5, 0.5, etc.).

That's what the anti-haste people in FFXI never learned back in the '04/05 era.

TL;DR? Don't be a crit sheep.
#11 May 10 2014 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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The OP asked a simple question and the first thing he gets is a series of condescending remarks about his stupidity.
What is this? FFXI no-lifer`s leet forum 2.0?

I think if you guys (Viertel, Hitome) are that frustrated about something that you are unable to just answer a simple question,
maybe you should take a break from the game, and especially this forum, altogether.

Or open up a special section called
"Leet talk only. Must be iL110 to ask questions. And iLV 115 to receive a decent answer."
#12 May 11 2014 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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What's sad Rinsui is Hitome went off multiple times on DuoMax when he kept asking what was BiS (this is the most recent)

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I'm going to lay it out for you once again.

As the above mentioned, BiS is usually used in regards to coil content. What is BiS for primals (that have little to no ACC requirement outside of Leviathan Ex), is definitely not BiS for coil because you lose a lot of ACC. At the same time, if you use your coil gear for primals, you are using unnecessary ACC instead of a piece of gear that doesn't have ACC on it.

Now here is where I'll ask you to think: outside of accuracy, which stat is better for certain jobs as a 'secondary'? What are the stat weights? Does 1 crit equal 2 det? You will not know until substantial testing is done, hence why it is mostly speculative.

There is an exception and that is usually BRD: skill speed seems to do little for them so they have a definite best secondary stat which is critical hit.

What is the best secondary stat for BLM? No one knows, though many claim one is better than the other or that they're all equal.

So as a BLM, I want to pick a stat to focus on. For me, it will be critical hit or determination. The highest amount of critical hit and determination I can get on all my gear while still meeting the ACC caps is what would be considered a BiS set. Any gear with spell speed on it would not be considered BiS if there is an equivalent piece of gear with CRIT/DET on it.

Is this clear?

I would also be careful about making assumptions about certain stats for other classes. DET is actually showing favorable returns for SCHs in 2.2 so they may become like BLM in a sense where DET and CRIT are equally weighted. There is also the concept of soft caps and diminishing returns but I'd rather not get into that.

If I were to pick spell speed as my secondary stat for BLM, my BiS list would look completely different than my BiS list for CRIT/DET.

Many jobs are in the same boat.


And now pretty much it's a complete reversal. Hitome, you actually you went off on Duo multiple times stating that BiS considerations are fluid and should be based on what is attainable for a player not what is simply out there gear wise aka not everyone is clearing Coil content every week. To swing your e-peen around about how you rock it in T9 and parsed all the builds seems rather....inconsistent? And like I said, never claimed it was ever BiS, said it seems and depended on build, then asked what I was not getting. Kinda insane that your response here when I asked for help was constructive and not pandering:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=292&mid=1394500182197815528

.....but in here you're an asshat deluxe for some reason. What a difference a month makes huh?

The only reason it even became a discussion is because Viertel said giving up Int was the only factor (since 'minor secondary stats' didn't matter). But then of course when said secondary stats become the make or break point for the argument, they all of a sudden aren't so minor anymore. Funny how that works out huh?

Once my group clears T7 and if I'm lucky enough to get drop, I'll just see if the npc allows me to buy it or not. Will be awhile but given the response I got for a rather innocuous question, think Id' rather wait the weeks on that than risk wading around in this thread with all the big swinging c*cks around.
#13 May 11 2014 at 5:51 AM Rating: Default
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Hm I'll preface this by stating that my original post, before the edit, simply said yes you could use both and that it wasn't the BiS combination. The fact that this discussion was going on before I posted, though, means that it is actually part of the topic now. If you want to act hurt over discussing something you've already brought up, that's not really my concern.

Potentially wasting 750 soldiery, though, is something you shouldn't necessarily seek to do considering we only get 450 per week and one ring costs 375. If you have the option available to you to get the oil (clearing turn 7), this means you already have potential access to the other ring (turn 6 drop).

That aside...

Rinsui wrote:
The OP asked a simple question and the first thing he gets is a series of condescending remarks about his stupidity. What is this? FFXI no-lifer`s leet forum 2.0?

I think if you guys (Viertel, Hitome) are that frustrated about something that you are unable to just answer a simple question,
maybe you should take a break from the game, and especially this forum, altogether."


Except he: 1) didn't ask a simple question (highlighted below) and 2) tried to spread misinformation. On top of that, he received an answer to all the questions he has asked in this post.

Frustration? This is why forums exist. I do find it humorous that people would try to defend someone who has made gross mistakes in his overarching generalizations and is simply being corrected.

BTW: the forums you are requesting to be created do exist. They're called the job forums that aren't used. This is where most of the discussion based on mathematics and deviations from the mathematical results due to observation should be held: not in general.

ChoochZero wrote:
The only reason it even became a discussion is because Viertel said giving up Int was the only factor (since 'minor secondary stats' didn't matter). But then of course when said secondary stats become the make or break point for the argument, they all of a sudden aren't so minor anymore. Funny how that works out huh?

Once my group clears T7 and if I'm lucky enough to get drop, I'll just see if the npc allows me to buy it or not. Will be awhile but given the response I got for a rather innocuous question, think Id' rather wait the weeks on that than risk wading around in this thread with all the big swinging c*cks around.


My original post was:

Hitome wrote:
Sure you can wear both.

BiS? No. 2 INT + 13 SSPD >>> 12 CRIT


Then I read the crap you spewed towards Viertel when he is absolutely right, you are 100% incorrect, and proceeded to edit my post accordingly last night.

If you don't want to be called out on a forum for stating something incorrectly, then don't attempt to rebut a point.

You stated you used an outside source to determine stat weights. My analysis of your post was based on those stat weights from Puro (whom I don't necessarily agree with) hence my post to Duo about the ambiguity of BiS. Or did this fly under your radar?

Hitome wrote:
Just so you're aware from Puro's chart: he has listed that 1 SSPD = 0.258 INT and 1 CRIT = 0.26 INT.


Like I stated: I've done testing of my own since the beginning of 2.2. I've found that DET is actually overlooked and that stacking one stat is not necessarily the best thing to do due to fights I've encountered where 100 SSPD has made or broke me. You know? Actual testing. Something you haven't done, admittedly.

That said: I actually agree with Puro's recommended BiS list minus the food used because it mixes all of the stats accordingly. Nowhere does he stack crit and say,"Hey, this is BiS."

If you're curious about the ending stats on his build:

w/ HA body:

INT: 575
ACC: 470
CRIT: 554
SSPD: 519

DET: 240

w/ Evenstar body:

INT: 575
ACC: 470
CRIT: 584
SSPD: 490

DET: 240

I wonder why he has the HA body OR the Evenstar body and not one or the other. I also wonder why he didn't neglect SSPD and actually balanced all of the stats.

I also wonder why you neglected to click on the Gear 2.25 tab that has Evenstar Ring + High Allagan Ring of Casting listed as his recommended BiS in every one of his gear recommendation lists. What? You want to use his stat weights but ignore his recommendations for BiS gear? Sure. That makes complete sense.

Instead, you just glossed over his stat weights.

ChoochZero wrote:
Giving up 2 int 2 acc (you should already be at cap) and 13 spell speed (irrelevant for non spell speed build) for 12 crit is foolish? News to me.

ChoochZero wrote:
I stated "Depending on build....it SEEMS" but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.

According to Puro spreadsheet, 12 crit is equivalent to over 2 Int so.....what am I missing then, no other relevant things considered? Why is High Allagan + Evenstar better than Weathered + Evenstar? It's 2 Int vs 12Crit...is there a crit cap you hit? If you want to talk down, back up your reasoning at least.

Item level is irrelevant if the stats aren't better; Atma and Zenith have identical stats but I guess Atma is magically better because it's i100 and "scales" with primary stat better somehow? Yeah ok.

ChoochZero wrote:
.....but in here you're an asshat deluxe for some reason. What a difference a month makes huh?


People actually learn things and adjust their views based on these observations? Gasp. This feels appropriate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

All this really boils down to in the end is you asking a question, getting an answer, making some claims, and then being corrected.

News to you? Glad it has been cleared up as well as your other misconceptions. Grats on obtaining your answer to all the questions you have asked.

VIertel wrote:
Math


Get that stuff out of here. I'm positive he understands how Puro obtained his stat weights, the concept of diminishing returns due to deviation from linearity, and the fact that Puro actually believes SSPD > CRIT despite his stat weights.

I'm positi-

Quote:
13 spell speed (irrelevant for non spell speed build)

Quote:
12 crit is equivalent to over 2 Int so.....what am I missing then

Quote:
It's 2 Int vs 12Crit...


I'd like to retract that statement.

Moral of the story: you can wear both.
BiS? No.
Want to make bold claims on a forum? Be ready to defend them.

Edited, May 16th 2014 1:24pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#14 May 13 2014 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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I dunno, I just try to hit my acc cap, and then treat INT > Spell Speed = Crit > Det.

Ultimately Crit is left up to RNG and Spell Speed is a constant percentage improvement that is not dependant on RNG.

So for a more consistent damage output, Spell Speed is best, but crit can be better or worse, RNG dependant. I tend to side with an even mix of both in my build when I can. I dont like giving anything up to RNG after my atma nightmare.
#15 May 13 2014 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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Ok, let just preface this that A, I'm not a Mage, B, I'm nowhere effing near Second Coil right now.

I'm seeking to educate myself on the aspect of this.

Can you explain to me the reasoning why the human element of Spellspeed is not considered when weighing its stat value?

Granted, this is from the perspective of a Melee DPS, but it seems to me the level of evasive maneuvers and alternate mechanics pretty much rules out the benefits of Spellspeed when it comes to other stats. It would seem that more often or not it is not going to allow you to squeeze another spell before you have to maneuver again, at least when it comes to individual item stats, so in many cases it's not wise to argue that Spell Speed is a static performance increase vs Crit, because those are both situation benefits that are just as intermittent as one another. However, Spellspeed, in my view, is more reliant on lack of human/isp connection error, where Crit is passive and will function it's benefits regardless of them.

Put bluntly: Spell Speed seems irrelevant unless you're absolutely perfect on your spell rotations, and from what I've seen most times people won't be.

Again, just arguing speculatively. If there's a quantitative counter-argument here I'm open to it. I just seem to find that a lot of statistical arguments seem to completely ignore pragmatical context, and I'm just trying to get my bearings here.



Edited, May 13th 2014 4:42pm by Hyrist
#16 May 13 2014 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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A) Unless you're macroing spells, you're queued on the server. As it is, with even marginal spell speed levels you could have gotten with i90 gear set that put emphasis on that instead of crit you're looking at basically an extra spell getting off, on average, every 20 seconds at at minimum 3 extra spells per minute with just 2.3 global. There's no human timing involved because it's queued up and the server fires them off as soon as you're alloted on the GCD, thus "perfection" doesn't even entire the argument at all.

It's queued at the server with the speed you have allocated, and the queue is extremely generous/extremely laggy so the human element really isn't that much of a problem. Hitome can already tell you the dramatic gains he had on Turn 9 once he got the Laevateinn and was able to fully utilize all the gear he's gotten so far. Why? Because he was able to get off spells faster, thus resulting in less Scathe usage.

B) Critical values possible aren't so large as to really allow a pure crit build. This isn't like WoW where 2nd raid tier and you're pushing past 40-45% chance to crit and critting is a major portion of your damage (i.e. raid buffs and procs pushing you nearly over a 60% chance overall). Nor are you doing double damage on crits and are only getting a 50% bonus. I imagine down the road critical hit bonus damage will become a stat and true crit builds will actually be a real possibility but as of right now they're really not.

C) Movement screws over BLM more than SMN (the only other caster) since *everything* you do is built around a casted/fulfillment style combat and not DoT or channeled. Scathe is instant, as are Firestarter/Thundercloud procs, but those are pure RNG and anyone that's played BLM for any serious duration should realize even the 40% chance to get a Firestarter, while high, can still ***** you over.

D) Avoiding spell affects and managing to get off Fire spells before you need to move -- and consequently not having to use resort to using Scathe spam -- is essential to doing as much as you can and not dramatically subpar DPS. Even in the best of situations in Turn 6/7 you're going to be nowhere near anyone else's damage as it is and having spells that cast quickly enough so you can actually get that Fire spell off before needing to adjust helps that much more.

E) Even considering the fact that you can't do anything about how regen ticks land in your recovery phase, Spell Speed is your only stat that has no downside to it at all. It's weighted the same as critical hit in terms of itemization budget in FFXIV and doesn't have an RNG component like crit does. It costs less in the budget than Determination does and has an upward scaling effect in your damage whereas Determination is purely linear.

~~~~

Even above all this the game should have, by the time you hit endgame and at LEAST by Crystal Tower gear, taught you that it's an iLVL driven game. You can argue the pros and cons of say Allagan Coat to Sorceror's Coat because they're the same iLVL. You *can't* argue an i100 versus an i110, and even asking if you can just buy another implies that you're capable of killing the content that drops the High Allagan Ring of Casting and just choose not to use it out of ignorance.

Haste has always been a universally steady increase in damage and the best thing you can use when any movement is needed/possible in any MMO with casters. It's that damned important, and usually why it's almost always heavily taxed or weighted heavily (weighted same in terms of budget FFXIV, but you need more to see returns compared to crit).

Edited, May 13th 2014 6:43pm by Viertel
#17 May 13 2014 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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So the translation of all of this is: "This is Haste, haste is better than everything." Not to take away from your justification, but that's what it boils down to.

The problem here for me is, unlike haste, I really don't know what the stat value runs at. Sure, the scaling may be exponential, as you say, but if the stat increase variance is marginal at absolute best, then nothing short of an absolute build made around it is going to net pratical results.

Even if a skill is queued, if you're not actually making these extra actions you're accounting for on paper in actual combat, then, no, the RNG is going average out better. So really it comes to how quantitative Skill Speed actually is. Though, at that point, it may be a matter of parsing vs arguing stats.

And this is where I need to argue your ilvl statement. iLvl in a vacuum, means nothing.What happens is, ilvl is representative of a base/secondary stat ratio higher on average than gear of a lower tier. That's fine. But if someone is adding a stat that provides insufficient returns comparable to a lesser tiered item, for any reason, then it is not, in fact, an upgrade.

It's not unintelligent to question this, which is why I do so. I'm in a similar situation having to weigh in on my Allegan Visor vs Weathered Astrum Helm. What I gain in 3 Str and 23 Skill Speed. (I'm on Coil 5, wearing Accuracy that's good enough for Coil 9) I lose in 11 Determination and 21 Crit Rate. In multiple moments vs Titan I lose on the advantage of skillspeed too much to justify its marginal increases.

I'm not arguing the particular instance the OP is making, because there are other, more pragmatic points made that I agree with. (use of Soldiery tomes vs availability of gear.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the OP:

While it's possible for you to equip weathered/non weathered, I'm with the others from the perspective of 'don't bother with it.' Ultimately you're wasting nearly two weeks worth of Soldiery for an arguable amount of stat increase. Even if the Weathered ring came on top for you, it would be by such a margin-able amount that any other sort of minor gear shuffling in other slots would render it obsolete instantly.

In the end, if you're clearing second coil, it's probably better to not micro your gear stats too much and stay within your teir. Your situation is different than mine in that I only have 1 set of level 100 Gear to play with. You've got 2 110 sets to switch between, use them and worry more about your execution than your raw stats.

Remember, Second Coil was cleared in mostly ilvl90 gear, so minmaxing stats are not as important as execution.
#18 May 13 2014 at 6:12 PM Rating: Default
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The thing to remember though, Hyrist, is that it's not an actual Haste and you won't see large increases (or rather decreases in gcd) until you have quite a lot of it and as per tests from EA and on we know that we need quite a lot of it (in the 700+ range) to truly see tiers of GCD getting knocked off.

So you'll see subtle increases (spell speed is more weighty than skill speed honestly) but until the cap is raised it's not THE crucial stat that some seem to think, especially considering it's the largest debated stats (Spell/Skill Speed) since there's many more stats that actually does show changes when you equip, e.g weapon/magic damage and crit/det . But yeah, ilvl in XIV doesn't actually do THAT much compared to other games and quite honestly, it's more in if you know your rotations or not since as said, Second coil was cleared long before everyone was even i93+.

So it's nice to have but you WILL need to focus on it to get a true benefit out of it.

Edited, May 13th 2014 5:32pm by Theonehio
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#19 May 13 2014 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
So the translation of all of this is: "This is Haste, haste is better than everything." Not to take away from your justification, but that's what it boils down to.


If you aren't going to bother to actually read and just be combatitive, don't even bother. It's like dealing with the anti-Haste arguments from FFXI all over again. You don't read, and resort to spouting random statements.

At no point did I state it's better. You asked for reasons why you would use it. I gave them.

If that's what you gathered from the reasons that's a reading comprehension issue on your end.

Hyrist wrote:
The problem here for me is, unlike haste, I really don't know what the stat value runs at. Sure, the scaling may be exponential, as you say, but if the stat increase variance is marginal at absolute best, then nothing short of an absolute build made around it is going to net pratical results.


False.

A) It is expontential. It's called math. There is no guesswork or maybe, or "as I say".

B) I hardly call reducing a 2.5 spell to 2.3 "insignificant". And that's just passively grabbing gear nilly-willy. In reality if you're pushing pure Spell Speed you're closer to 2.1/2.15.

Hyrist wrote:
Even if a skill is queued, if you're not actually making these extra actions you're accounting for on paper in actual combat, then, no, the RNG is going average out better. So really it comes to how quantitative Skill Speed actually is. Though, at that point, it may be a matter of parsing vs arguing stats.


Extra.... actions? It's called chain-casting, and if you're any decent at Black Mage you'll be doing that anyway. There is no "on paper, doesn't work in reality" argument. If you aren't applying ABC you don't care enough and shouldn't even be commenting anyway.

Hyrist wrote:
And this is where I need to argue your ilvl statement. iLvl in a vacuum, means nothing.What happens is, ilvl is representative of a base/secondary stat ratio higher on average than gear of a lower tier. That's fine. But if someone is adding a stat that provides insufficient returns comparable to a lesser tiered item, for any reason, then it is not, in fact, an upgrade.


A) Higher iLVL = main stat = highest possible upgrade outside of raw MDMG.

B) There isn't a single stat for BLM that gives "insufficient returns". It's literally the ONLY class that has

Hyrist wrote:
It's not unintelligent to question this, which is why I do so. I'm in a similar situation having to weigh in on my Allegan Visor vs Weathered Astrum Helm. What I gain in 3 Str and 23 Skill Speed. (I'm on Coil 5, wearing Accuracy that's good enough for Coil 9) I lose in 11 Determination and 21 Crit Rate. In multiple moments vs Titan I lose on the advantage of skillspeed too much to justify its marginal increases.


..............why the hell are you even commenting about SKILL SPEED? We're talking, specifically, towards Spell Speed. AKA caster damage, and more specifically Black Mage. Skill Speed has its own traps (TP drain and rotation alteration at high enough levels on Monk and Dragoon) that has absolutely ****zero**** relevance to this thread.

Pay attention.

Hyrist wrote:
I'm not arguing the particular instance the OP is making, because there are other, more pragmatic points made that I agree with. (use of Soldiery tomes vs availability of gear.)


You aren't arguing *anything* because you're commenting on something that hasn't even been mentioned, at all, in this thread! You're barely paying attention.
#20 May 13 2014 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
While it's possible for you to equip weathered/non weathered, I'm with the others from the perspective of 'don't bother with it.' Ultimately you're wasting nearly two weeks worth of Soldiery for an arguable amount of stat increase.

Wouldn't it be less than one week's worth of Soldiery (375 for the 2nd weathered evenstar ring of casting)? Soldiery spent on the first ring is an investment he would make regardless of what he decided to wear in the other ring slot.
#21 May 13 2014 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
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ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.

Yes [/End topic]

See guys, it's not -that- hard to answer someone's question 20 posts down the line without being a massive jerk about it, seriously...
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#22 May 14 2014 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
So the translation of all of this is: "This is Haste, haste is better than everything." Not to take away from your justification, but that's what it boils down to.


If you aren't going to bother to actually read and just be combative, don't even bother. It's like dealing with the anti-Haste arguments from FFXI all over again. You don't read, and resort to spouting random statements.


None of it is random, and most of it you just ignored.

On the matter of quantitative. We're talking the value of a singular piece. You're misconstruing you argument to saying an entire spell build should be designed around it. problem is, that a Spellspeed Build comes at consequences other than simply what you can do by casting faster. Again, as stated before, we cannot compare FFXI's values to FFXIV. Haste could be valued individually above everything else in FFXI, because not only you could simply swap it in and out as needed, as caster or Melee, the primary damage output/input component in that game was passive. IE, you weren't often dodging actively. Here, it comes as a consequence to other stats through the entirety of a fight, and you're moving a whole lot more.

Quote:
Extra.... actions? It's called chain-casting, and if you're any decent at Black Mage you'll be doing that anyway. There is no "on paper, doesn't work in reality" argument. If you aren't applying ABC you don't care enough and shouldn't even be commenting anyway.


Actually, yes, there is. At this point, it may be above your head, because we've passed the scope of simple mathematics.

If a window of attack lasts 10 seconds, and you are attacking every 2.5, you get four attacks. If you are attacking every 2.3 Seconds YOU ARE STILL ATTACKING ONLY FOUR TIMES In fact, you are still only attacking 4 times in a static window of 10 seconds if you're attacking every 2.1 seconds.

And because the windows for available attack both stagger and are varied, and the fact that the lost performance in the previous window is not front-loaded into the next window, that extra performance is lost permanently and the so-called exponential value is marginalized.

So, as I was trying to say: Unless the value is enough to net you an extra attack within your windows consistently, it's actually a wasted stat. So it ultimately comes down to how long your average attack window is before maneuvering, and making sure your spell speed best fits that.

Quote:
..............why the hell are you even commenting about SKILL SPEED? We're talking, specifically, towards Spell Speed. AKA caster damage, and more specifically Black Mage.


... you really are trying my patience. I was drawing parallels of interests when it came to sympathizing the valuing stats on particular gears based off of raw stats vs ilvl, and explaining my own gear mulling circumstances as to why it was a valid question to raise.

As far as being aggressive and berating, you have this entire head so I won't be bothering past this point.

Edited, May 14th 2014 3:32am by Hyrist
#23 May 14 2014 at 2:54 AM Rating: Good
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KojiroSoma wrote:
ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.

Yes [/End topic]

See guys, it's not -that- hard to answer someone's question 20 posts down the line without being a massive jerk about it, seriously...


HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Sure you can wear both.

BiS? No. 2 INT + 13 SSPD >>> 12 CRIT


Yeah, you're right: it isn't. Reading on the other hand...



As far as spell speed being worthless...it's the difference between getting a T2 + Fire 3 off before the first Heavensfall hits after mega flare and not. When I was using 375 SSPD, I was really suffering in T9. Bumped up to 475, DPS suddenly increased by 30. Weapon damage increased? Yeah but not enough to account for 30 whole DPS.

Hyrist wrote:
Ok, let just preface this that A, I'm not a Mage, B, I'm nowhere effing near Second Coil right now.

I'm seeking to educate myself on the aspect of this.

Can you explain to me the reasoning why the human element of Spellspeed is not considered when weighing its stat value?

Granted, this is from the perspective of a Melee DPS, but it seems to me the level of evasive maneuvers and alternate mechanics pretty much rules out the benefits of Spellspeed when it comes to other stats. It would seem that more often or not it is not going to allow you to squeeze another spell before you have to maneuver again, at least when it comes to individual item stats, so in many cases it's not wise to argue that Spell Speed is a static performance increase vs Crit, because those are both situation benefits that are just as intermittent as one another. However, Spellspeed, in my view, is more reliant on lack of human/isp connection error, where Crit is passive and will function it's benefits regardless of them.


I see where you're coming from and this is where I disgree with Puro when it comes to his philosophy on SSPD. However, there are certain tiers for SSPD where it not only lowers your casting time but also your GCD. Every GCD with x amount of spell speed is that much more DPS since you are able to get off more spells.

DET is actually the stat that always applies to your spells no matter what. It's the most linear of the stats and is often seen as a tertiary stat outside of WHMs. CRIT doesn't apply every time, unfortunately. None of the BLM spells benefit mechanic-wise from having more CRIT unlike BRD where crit chance actually affects other abilities you may have.


Hyrist wrote:
Put bluntly: Spell Speed seems irrelevant unless you're absolutely perfect on your spell rotations, and from what I've seen most times people won't be.

Again, just arguing speculatively. If there's a quantitative counter-argument here I'm open to it. I just seem to find that a lot of statistical arguments seem to completely ignore pragmatical context, and I'm just trying to get my bearings here.


Eh when people start to get content on farm, you may have a point which is why I generally switch to SMN once content IS on farm. When you get content on farm, you generally have a perfected spell rotation and deviate very little since you know the fight in advance. BLM is a job that is rewarded for knowing fights in advance to maximize DPS.

Other jobs are like this as well, however.

Like I said: Puro argues from the theoretical situations and praises SSPD for these instead of the reality of the situation which I highly disagree with.


Viertel wrote:
D) Avoiding spell affects and managing to get off Fire spells before you need to move -- and consequently not having to use resort to using Scathe spam -- is essential to doing as much as you can and not dramatically subpar DPS. Even in the best of situations in Turn 6/7 you're going to be nowhere near anyone else's damage as it is and having spells that cast quickly enough so you can actually get that Fire spell off before needing to adjust helps that much more.


I disagree with this first part! BLM is actually a very handy job for T7 but relies entirely on not getting shrieked. However, there is a little movement post 60% in T7 which is where SSPD pays off. The same goes for T6.

Hyrist wrote:
The problem here for me is, unlike haste, I really don't know what the stat value runs at. Sure, the scaling may be exponential, as you say, but if the stat increase variance is marginal at absolute best, then nothing short of an absolute build made around it is going to net pratical results.


Hyrist wrote:
And this is where I need to argue your ilvl statement. iLvl in a vacuum, means nothing. What happens is, ilvl is representative of a base/secondary stat ratio higher on average than gear of a lower tier. That's fine. But if someone is adding a stat that provides insufficient returns comparable to a lesser tiered item, for any reason, then it is not, in fact, an upgrade.


Unfortunately, based on what the OP said and how he obtained his stat weights (PuroStrider), he learned that spell speed and crit are about equal. He also neglected the fact that the HA ring has THIRTEEN spell speed on it so it's not just 12 cRIT > 2 INT..it's 12 CRIT << 2 INT + 13 spell speed.

Hyrist wrote:
It's not unintelligent to question this, which is why I do so. I'm in a similar situation having to weigh in on my Allegan Visor vs Weathered Astrum Helm. What I gain in 3 Str and 23 Skill Speed. (I'm on Coil 5, wearing Accuracy that's good enough for Coil 9) I lose in 11 Determination and 21 Crit Rate. In multiple moments vs Titan I lose on the advantage of skillspeed too much to justify its marginal increases.


Unfortunately, it depends on how your stat weights are for the particular job you play. :) This really should only be a problem with accessories and belts. Body pieces are, hands down, a better upgrade due to the sheer amount of main stat alone.

Hyrist wrote:
Remember, [b]Second Coil was cleared in mostly ilvl90 ilvl 95-98 gear, so minmaxing stats are not as important as execution.

Theonehio wrote:
Second coil was cleared long before everyone was even i93+.


Cleared in avg. i98 gear. BG and other FCs used alt groups to gear up all the mains in the first groups. Basically, they were decked out.

You will not clear T9 without at least 3 sanded weapon DPS.

I cannot stress this point enough.

The GCD tiers can be found here, TheOneHio:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqG_cUArVwt5dExEVEJIRmJHd2lrczg4cnZxTDVkM1E#gid=68

Hyrist wrote:
If a window of attack lasts 10 seconds, and you are attacking every 2.5, you get four attacks. If you are attacking every 2.3 Seconds YOU ARE STILL ATTACKING ONLY FOUR TIMES In fact, you are still only attacking 4 times in a static window of 10 seconds if you're attacking every 2.1 seconds.


This is why experience comes into play here. There are situations in this game where you will not be able to get off a spell at a certain spell speed value before you have to dodge compared to getting off a spell with a high spell speed value before dodging. IDK if you've watched T6-9, but almost every single turn has a random party member selection on it:

T6: The difference between ~100 spell speed is the difference between getting a near full rotation of fire 3 > fire 1 on the bee before blighted bouqet occurs and not. Another example: getting a spell off before you have to move for tether.

T7: Shriek and voice are both random and alter your DPS drasticallyy. Getting shrieked and getting three spells off before I have to run behind the giant is a lot better than 1 or 2 spells.

T8: It's the difference between getting fire 3 > fire 1 till ~350 MP + flare off opposed to just fire 3 + fire 1. The flare cleaves both the dread and the Avatar, increasing DPS substantially.

T9: This really drives home the reason you would want SSPD at least in the upper 400s. She will constantly be up in the air. Many sections of meteor stream (during lunar dynamo > meteor stream) and double meteor stream benefit spell speed since you need to squeeze off as much DPS as possible before she goes up into the air.

BTW, seen the last section of T9? It's constant movement. The faster you can ramp up your fire 3 to get astral fire back up, the better. Due to all the movement, you may not be able to get a fire 1 off before your astral fire 3 runs out opposed to spell speed that will allow this more frequently.

I have around two seconds of astral fire 3 left before I know I will lose it. If I cast fire 1 at 2-3 seconds, I retain astral fire. With 375 spell speed, I could not do this.



You are forgetting many things.

  • Increased spell speed to a certain extent means I can actually get all my spells off DURING the medicated phase of raging strikes + x-pot int + BV foe req just like increased skill speed means I can get DK > twin > snap > snap > demo off on MNK during perfect balance opposed to not.
  • The higher your spell speed, the better you scale with Selene's spell speed buff
  • SSPD allows you to ramp up faster from a stack clear (boss went for a swim, went up in the air)
  • You forget how largely flare is affected by spell speed. The longer the cast, the more noticable the outcome.


  • Basically, the more movement in the fight, the better SSPD performs. Coil 2 is full of movement. Neglecting it entirely is a bad idea...but stacking it entirely can have poor returns as well.

    Edited, May 16th 2014 1:28pm by HitomeOfBismarck
    #24 May 14 2014 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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    ChoochZero wrote:
    If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.


    Yes, you can wear both.

    Additionally, short of High Allagan Ring, the Weathered ring is your BiS for your secondary ring. I think people are not paying attention to the fact that you stated "I haven't downed t7 yet.

    Well, obviously he won't have the ring then, right?

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    Edited, May 14th 2014 8:31am by Louiscool
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    #25 May 14 2014 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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    All weathered rings are actually BiS. :P There are only two rings this time around. I suspect they will add more accessories in the next patch.

    If he hasn't downed T7 or T9, he won't have access to an oil to transform the Weathered Evenstar Ring to Evenstar Ring. You are unable to equip two Weathered Evenstar Rings hence my recommendation to save soldiery. If you're stuck on T7, you'll be downing T6 for a while which drops the HA ring of casting.
    #26 May 14 2014 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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    HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
    You are unable to equip two Weathered Evenstar Rings hence my recommendation to save soldiery.

    Not that he even has a choice. Unique doesn't just mean that you can't equip two. It means that you can't even own two of them. Though I suppose he could put one of them on his retainer until he got the upgrade items.
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