Greed Party and Loot thievesFollow

Making crazy demands is indeed wrong, and never in this thread did I say otherwise.

I was only asking for a little respect thrown in the tanks' direction if they are acting like a decent person. What I hate is being a tank, and being a good, decent polite person, then something minor goes wrong, and every DPS in the group starts cursing me out (even if it was their own dumb fault).

I never meant to defend tanks who think they own the group; I was only trying to explain why its wrong to fly off the handle at the tank and treat them like crap over every little mistake.



In games like Battlefield, Snipers are given a very limited toolkit that is tuned for... you guessed it... sniping.

They get a Sniper Rifle, a Pistol, a Knife, and a piece of equipment related to sniping.

When they run out of Sniper Ammo.... what do you expect them to do, jump into the fray with a peashooter? Of course they don't want to jump into the fray; they're staring down people with assault rifles while using a pistol and a knife.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2014 10:37am by Lyrailis

He's talking about Teamwork Responsibility. A DPS job is to target whatever needs to die and do your rotation and keep yourself alive by dodging AoE attacks.

That's it.

A Tank has to make sure the mob ain't attacking anybody else, the Tank is the one who should be pulling, the Tank is the first one into the fray (which means he needs to know where to go in the Dungeon, because everybody else should be following him since first aggro = more hate), the Tank has to control the facing of the mob, so that dragon ain't horking fire all over the group, etc etc while staying out of AoE himself. Also, some bosses (like the last one in Brayflox) need to be moved around according to environmental cues.

A healer has to watch everybody else's health, he has to know who to heal when, when to use AoE heals, etc.

A DPS, though... he doesn't have to care about the rest of the group. He targets the mob and deals damage. That's it. His responsibility lies upon "Attack the #1 target" and occasionally "Kill adds when they spawn" during a boss fight.

That's a lot less responsibility than Tank or Heals.

The bolded part is what this all breaks down to. Its not a tank issue, its not a DPS issue, its not a Healer issue. Its a HUMAN issue. I have seen tanks call out healers and dps, Healers call out tanks and dps, and dps call out tanks and healers. Everyone roll in the game has something to do. DSP kill stuff before enrage and explosions, tanks soak damage, healers keep people alive. Everyone does their part every one is happy. But when an **** is behind the controller we all suffer.

/endsoapbox

Healing in the baby dungeons is pretty easy. Things get considerably rougher by level 30, though, mostly due to MP issues. Brayflox and Qarn are just awful for healers. Things get a little better at 38 with Shroud of Saints, which restores MP as well as sheds enmity. But it's never easy again after that. WHM in FFXI was actually much easier at endgame.

I agree that tanking is harder at lower level dungeons, though. DPS doesn't really get difficult until the late 40s, when you start encountering DPS checks in dungeons. Remember all the whining we did regarding Demon Wall just a few months back?

Edited, Apr 22nd 2014 10:54am by Catwho

In my experience in ffxiv on both drg and pld for most events playing tank is way more involved then dps, even tho drg is my main unless you just like looking at numbers playing dps is kinda boring and requires you to do a lot less.
Just last night doing T 5 as a tank is way harder more involved at every phase then dps specially when you are main tanking popping CD for death sentence dodging twisters and if a dps dies oh well pick him up when you get the chance, as opposed to when the tank dies well more then likely a wipe is coming.

Those DPS just skip conflages right? and no need to target the big snake. The tank and healer can kill it. O and those Knights, We'll just let the tank and Healer take those out as well. Shoot I'm not even going to target Twin during the liquid hells, The tank and healer can DPS it while I lay dead and get carried to a win YAY!

/sarcasm

DPS is not trivial in THIS game. No job is trivial. Boring =/= easy. I try to hit that 23344322345 combo on DRG all the time. Again, what a job is depends on the HUMAN playing it not the job itself.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2014 11:20am by nonameoflevi

Why is it that people can still get by on some content even with a dead DPS or 2? If in your words DPS has the most responsibility out of any class in this game, as that's what you're basically stating.

You're right though, DPS can tank and heal every content in this game and keep the party flowing. :)

You do realize like every other MMO DPS have the least party responsibility, right? In heavily scripted MMOs, the only thing that even gives DPS an iota of responsibility are when the script tells it to enrage after x amount of time has passed or throw in instant kill mechanics (i.e Conflags.) As much as you want to believe otherwise, DPS has the least responsibility when it comes to a party.

Tank or healer goes down? What usually happens?

Edited, Apr 22nd 2014 8:27am by Theonehio

Not what im saying or said at all. What I have said is that everyone has a role to do and you can't trivialize any of them in FFXIV. Now what you have said is everyOTHER MMO and I'm talking about FFXIV. How can people get by with two dead DPS? I'm going to say cus they have 2 more and someone is going to raise the dead one soon so they can win. If we are talking about post echo buff then there's that. Before, losing 2 DPS meant losing the fight.

That's a lie I have beating titan ex with two dps dead, I even beat ifrit ex with all dps dead after last nail phase.

In an 8 man party you can absolutely finish with two dead DPS. That's how I got past Titan HM the first go round. 2/4 DPS were on the ground by the very end. Yeah, you need the DPS to get past the heart phase, but once that's done it's basically just wearing Titan down and not getting kicked off the platform.

Even in XI and previous FF games the party roles were fluid, though. Sure XI had 6 people, but it was not "x4 DPS a tank and a healer" - it was always something a bit weirder. A tank, two DPS, a healer, a buffer, a nuker (burst damage DPS and DoTs only.) Or x3 DPS, a tank, and two healers. X3 DPS and triple support/healers for the lulz. x5 BLMs and a bard, anyone?

Heck, playing through X with your max of 3 party members out at a time meant you had to choose between your speed and accuracy guy, your piercing guy, your ranged guy, your healer, your nuker, your stealer, and your slicing guy - since you could swap em out like chess pieces the choices are brain dead, but playing with "all DPS all the time" in X would probably get your team killed.

So then by that logic its OK to join a Greed Only party and have the leader change it to a need once you join and that's perfectly acceptably to you.

What's acceptable to me is purely personal, and it depends on the situation. Once the pt leader tells me he's changing the rules, I have the choice to drop out and look for some other opportunity that better suits my needs (and make a personal note that I run a similar risk int he future if I join one of his groups), or to live with the new rules (which I might be fine with if clearing the content is more important to me than the loot that can potentially drop).

I could also choose to announce to the party that I refuse to abide by the new rules. In your example, no one would care that I'm going to try and Greed on their job's loot, since they could just Need on it and my Greed lot would be meaningless. In fact, if I choose to Greed on loot for my job, others could Need their stuff and still Greed my job's loot. So it would be a silly pronouncement on my part.

If the change is in the other direction though, that the party has gone from the simple Need lot to a trust based Greed only lot, and I announce to the party that I refuse to Greed and will Need anything that I can, what do you think the outcome will be? Either the pt leader boots me, or the high demand player who wanted the greed lot setup (likely a tank) will drop. If the tank drops, I get my way but the group is stuck seeking longer for the tank that they need. The situation may even snowball into other players dropping (we don't have the tanks we need, and "that guy" isn't doing the group any favors to help line up a tank).

Alternatively, if one of the melee DPS drops and another BLM joins, I can't just announce to the group that he can't lot against me on any BLM drops, because when I joined I was the only BLM in the group. That's essentially the same situation. I went from being the only person who could lot the gear I want to having competition for it. Whether it was due to the pt leader changing lotting rules or the party setup changing is immaterial. The outcome is the same. Well, the difference being that I could be a total jerk by just acting like I am willing to accept the new rules with the full intent that I will Need stuff if the right loot drops.


And you're not bound by these rules (since the game can't enforce it), which is the root of the conflict. You could simply not say anything and just Need your loot. But one **** move does not undo a previous **** move. It just breeds more conflict and potentially sullies your reputation among players on your own server.

If you don't plan to abide by the new Greed lotting rules, openly tell your party that before you enter the duty. See what happens.