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#102 Apr 23 2014 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Catwho wrote:
That hat destroyed more friendships in FFXI than any other virtual object in the history of virtual worlds.

Some people still don't speak to me in XI.


I always knew you were the ninja looting type!
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#103 Apr 23 2014 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
ouch!

In my case, it was that I scheduled a Dynamis-Xarcabard on a Tuesday that the people who were at #1 and #2 request for the hat could not make it. I myself was #4 in line at the time. (We used a combo points/waiting list thing via FFDKP - it worked well.)

I didn't know when I set the schedule that #1 and #2 would not be able to make it, because they didn't post their planned non-attendance ahead of time in the forum specifically for that sort of thing (had I known, I might have tried to find a different day for Xarc.) And once I had it scheduled, it was too late to change it because at the time Dynamis scheduling on Seraph was pretty cut throat and Xarc slots went fast.

So of course a hat drops. #3, who was present, was utterly thrilled. And with ten minutes to go, a second hat dropped. Since I was next in line, I got it per the rules. I felt bad, though. I was able to promptly +1 it too since the -1 hat fell like candy in Dyna-Valkurm.

Naturally, we didn't see another hat for three months, when #1 finally got it.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 3:39pm by Catwho
#104 Apr 23 2014 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
Gnu wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
...you keep acting like you have no choice.


Is the relic weapon going to be part of a larger permanent weapon progression?

Quote:
Naoki Yoshida states that the Zodiac Weapons are a form of upgraded Relic Weapon which will take a considerable amount of time to complete, and will be upgraded in the form of phases in each patch. Yoshida goes on to mention that not many players will have the first phase completed before the second one launches in 2.25, and that this is a very overtime goal for players to work on and that their viability as future weapons will remain for some time.


Completing boring content is now a required step on the path to upgrade relic. And it's boring. I'm asking for actual fun gameplay.

What exactly is your point besides that you don't like my opinion? Do you have something to say about the direction of game development or the hidden benefits of the Atma system? Stop making this personal. I'm not attacking you, I'm not attacking FFXIV as a whole. Requiring players to suffer through boring content as a path to the most powerful weapon upgrade is a bad design choice that is making players (not just me) unhappy.


A) There are many alternative progression paths with superior rewards.

B) You keep acting like this isn't the case.

So your only problem is that you can't keep upgrading the same weapon (that is inferior to alternatives) in the following patches? Sure, that's a complaint I can get behind. Just, quite a pancake of a complaint in comparison to what you are trying to constantly imply throughout this and other threads (that you have "no choice" here). You have "no choice" if you don't want a far superior weapon or you want to keep upgrading the same weapon every patch.

Maybe if you ask nicely they can cater to your needs by making you "upgrade" wave stick to ramuh's stick in 2.3. Happy?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 7:43pm by Hyanmen
#105 Apr 23 2014 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
Here's the problem...

A lot of players seem to want the Zodiak quest to be gated by more "challenging" content, or they want the RNG to be mostly removed from the equation.


Thayos, you are completely correct. It is a problem because the rest of the weapon gearing options (a great majority of them) revolve around beating challenging content.

What does it speak of the playerbase's feeling of entitlement that when a single alternative progression method simply exists (for a reward that is fair considering the fact you don't have to beat challenging contents) it must be shot down for the sake of making everything follow the same progression structure?

The Zodiac quest filled a niche that the game severely lacked before. The only players suffering from this are the ones who want to keep upgrading the same weapon every patch. The rest have vastly superior alternatives better suited to their preferences.

But even that's not enough.
#106 Apr 23 2014 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
The problem with the first part of that is gating the quest with what players deem as challenging -- usually extreme primals or advanced stages of coil -- would alienate the players who this quest was implemented for. Also, we already have weapon progression paths through that "challenging" content, so using that to gate the Zodiak quest would be somewhat redundant.


I don't know if everyone who would prefer if atma grinding were more challenging actually want it gated behind content like extreme primals or coil. I think a lot of people would just like to feel at least somewhat engaged in the content they're doing. To feel like they're playing a video game. I mean, even storyline dungeons like Brayflox and Stone Vigil give me a feeling that I should attempt to play my role. Doing low level FATEs at the max level possible for each FATE, on the other hand, is just so far beyond face roll content that it's tough to even put into perspective. FATEs were already considered to be very easy, grindy content when leveling your class, even when you were below the level for each FATE. Now, in order to achieve a prestigious high level weapon, people are doing those same FATEs but at a much higher level.

Essentially, the grind to get your item level 100 weapon at the max level in this game involves the exact same content as the easiest way to level your class in the 20s and 30s, only it's far easier due to hitting the max level in absolutely every FATE. And that really just seems quite odd.
#107 Apr 23 2014 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Gnu wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
...you keep acting like you have no choice.


Is the relic weapon going to be part of a larger permanent weapon progression?

Quote:
Naoki Yoshida states that the Zodiac Weapons are a form of upgraded Relic Weapon which will take a considerable amount of time to complete, and will be upgraded in the form of phases in each patch. Yoshida goes on to mention that not many players will have the first phase completed before the second one launches in 2.25, and that this is a very overtime goal for players to work on and that their viability as future weapons will remain for some time.


Completing boring content is now a required step on the path to upgrade relic. And it's boring. I'm asking for actual fun gameplay.

What exactly is your point besides that you don't like my opinion? Do you have something to say about the direction of game development or the hidden benefits of the Atma system? Stop making this personal. I'm not attacking you, I'm not attacking FFXIV as a whole. Requiring players to suffer through boring content as a path to the most powerful weapon upgrade is a bad design choice that is making players (not just me) unhappy.


A) There are many alternative progression paths with superior rewards.

B) You keep acting like this isn't the case.

So your only problem is that you can't keep upgrading the same weapon (that is inferior to alternatives) in the following patches? Sure, that's a complaint I can get behind. Just, quite a pancake of a complaint in comparison to what you are trying to constantly imply throughout this and other threads (that you have "no choice" here). You have "no choice" if you don't want a far superior weapon or you want to keep upgrading the same weapon every patch.

Maybe if you ask nicely they can cater to your needs by making you "upgrade" wave stick to ramuh's stick in 2.3. Happy?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 7:43pm by Hyanmen


Actually, the problem is that there is no viable alternative for the vast majority of players. Turn 5 weapons are roughly comparable to Zenith weapons. Some are better, some are worse, some are the same, but they are similar enough that you can't say that Turn 5 is the the clear best for everyone. That makes Atma the better choice over Turn 5. As far as Coil 2 drops, didn't we have a huge thread a couple weeks ago about how only two parties had legitimately cleared without cheating? Kind of makes it hard to farm for mirrors when only a very small number of people can actually beat the content. That really just leaves Leviathan. Have you ever tried doing EX runs with a pickup group? If you had, you'd know what an exercise in futility that is. Basically, you either grind Atma, or have a group decent enough to farm Leviathan. Those are the only two real options for most people. People ******** about one of those options being mind numbingly boring is a pretty legitimate complaint, especially if they don't have the means to pursue the other option.
#108 Apr 23 2014 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I've gotten 5 weapons in pickup parties. The key is, make sure you don't get those who say they have a clear or manipulate the item link feature sneaking in and absolutely ruining your farm.

Or go with your FC..that's even easier. While what you say is somewhat true, there's a playerbase problem if people can't reliably farm T5 or Leviathan EX now....High allagan is unobtainable for most currently, but you do have alternates whether you personally can or can't clear the content that's not a design issue.

Can't do Leviathan? Do T5, it's even Duty Finderable now..not that that would help but it's there.
Can't do Levi or T5? Farm the Animus.
Can't do either? Save your tomes of soli and buy a weathered and try to do T7.
Can't do that?

You simply don't deserve a top weapon if every option is out of your grasp.
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#109 Apr 23 2014 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You simply don't deserve a top weapon if every option is out of your grasp.


Harsh, but sometimes the truth hurts. SE provided two clear paths for the best weapons at this moment in time: Either work with people to clear hard content, or grind out boring stuff on your own.

I don't have any of those weapons yet because I am a casual. I don't deserve the best in slot - but I don't need it, either.
#110 Apr 23 2014 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Nobody is saying just give us the weapon without effort. All we're asking is that the process be fun. That's sort of the point of playing a video game, to enjoy it. It boggles my mind that people are against that.
#111 Apr 23 2014 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Nobody is saying just give us the weapon without effort. All we're asking is that the process be fun. That's sort of the point of playing a video game, to enjoy it. It boggles my mind that people are against that.


I don't think anyone is anti-fun. I just don't realistically know how a long, grindy process can ever honestly be made "fun." Grind out FATES, kill hundreds of low-level mobs, wait for Leaping Lizzy to spawn for the 30th time, touch every telepoint in the world until you get a key item, catch 1,000 fish, talk to every NPC...

Whichever poison you pick, a grind is a grind is a grind... especially in a video game. There's a reason why most single-player games could be finished in the time it takes to farm 12 atma.

For people who say "fun" is taking on big NMs, primals and other hard content, then there are already paths in the game to get top-level weapons using that content.

And those paths are grinds, too.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 4:34pm by Thayos
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#112 Apr 23 2014 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Nobody is saying just give us the weapon without effort. All we're asking is that the process be fun. That's sort of the point of playing a video game, to enjoy it. It boggles my mind that people are against that.


I don't think anyone is anti-fun. I just don't realistically know how a long, grindy process can ever honestly be made "fun." Grind out FATES, kill hundreds of low-level mobs, wait for Leaping Lizzy to spawn for the 30th time, touch every telepoint in the world until you get a key item, catch 1,000 fish, talk to every NPC...

Whichever poison you pick, a grind is a grind is a grind... especially in a video game. There's a reason why most single-player games could be finished in the time it takes to farm 12 atma.

For people who say "fun" is taking on big NMs, primals and other hard content, then there are already paths in the game to get top-level weapons using that content.

And those paths are grinds, too.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 4:34pm by Thayos


While that is true, surely you can agree with the sentiment that low-level content is not fun for the high-level player?

Earlier in the thread I used Archer as an example. Lv10 Archer in a non-miniboss FATE is...

2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 (or whatever button your Straight Shot is bound to).

Until FATE is done, because using Venom Bite is not worth the time; everything dies too fast for the DoT to tick.

I can understand wanting to get more people to do fates for the lowbies so they can actually finish FATEs, but as I posted another thread on this a couple weeks ago, said rush of high level players actually makes it harder on lowbies to get anything better than Bronze sometimes.

I think what Turin is trying to say, is that no... we don't necessarily want Atmas in harder DF content. We already have a bunch of DF-type content to do already.

However... d'you think we could at least have these Atmas dropping from Lv30-50 content that actually has better gameplay (instead of mashing the same 1-2 buttons over and over and over again), that can actually drop decent items (instead of lolanimalskins) that might sell for actual gil (Toad/Coeurl/Raptor/Karakul Skins tends to sell far better than Animal Skins, for example judging from prices I see on the Market Board)?

For the lowbies... simply reduce how stinking hard Low-Level FATEs, especially Minibosses, are to solo. Make the Minibosses scale with # of people attacking it at the time to keep it a reasonable challenge no matter how many people are attacking it. Reduce the ridiculous respawns and/or # of items/kills/etc needed to finish the FATE if there's no players currently active in that FATE, etc etc etc.

EDIT: Also, some FATEs (those started by NPCs), the Timer does not start ticking until the NPC has been activated. IMO, all Pre-30 FATEs should work this way. The NPC should remain in the game world for 15min, and the FATE lasts 15min after he's activated. No more "This fate has been untouched for 10min, newbie comes along with 5min left and has no chance whatsoever at actually succeeding it".

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 8:24pm by Lyrailis
#113 Apr 23 2014 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't think anyone is anti-fun. I just don't realistically know how a long, grindy process can ever honestly be made "fun." Grind out FATES, kill hundreds of low-level mobs, wait for Leaping Lizzy to spawn for the 30th time, touch every telepoint in the world until you get a key item, catch 1,000 fish, talk to every NPC...


The books did it well overall IMO, despite still costing a bit too many myths atm (which I'm sure was just to keep people from progressing too fast at first, and will almost certainly be lowered in the near future) but at least you can get myths doing just about any sort of lv50 content in the game. The bits requiring FATEs where you just stand around for hours waiting for it to pop were dumb (standing around doing nothing waiting for a spawn isn't fun, what a SHOCK), but the rest of it at least has you doing a variety of things and keeps it from getting completely stale.

Too bad you can't even get to that part without putting up with the ridiculous atma grind.
#114 Apr 24 2014 at 12:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
I've gotten 5 weapons in pickup parties. The key is, make sure you don't get those who say they have a clear or manipulate the item link feature sneaking in and absolutely ruining your farm.

Or go with your FC..that's even easier. While what you say is somewhat true, there's a playerbase problem if people can't reliably farm T5 or Leviathan EX now....High allagan is unobtainable for most currently, but you do have alternates whether you personally can or can't clear the content that's not a design issue.

Can't do Leviathan? Do T5, it's even Duty Finderable now..not that that would help but it's there.
Can't do Levi or T5? Farm the Animus.
Can't do either? Save your tomes of soli and buy a weathered and try to do T7.
Can't do that?

You simply don't deserve a top weapon if every option is out of your grasp.


"Deserve." There's that word again. Let's just create class differences because reasons. The problem with the RNG, as Thayos and others have stated, is that it does not reward "work" or "effort" in a fair way. You can get completely lucky and be working on your Animus within 8 hours of receiving the quest, or you can be trapped in the Atma Hell for over 40 hours of game time. By that logic, the 40+ hour person has put much more "effort" into getting their Atma than the 8 hour guy.

Much of the reasons listed in this thread revolve around "effort" and "work," with a mention of alternate paths of progression generally linked to the two. The implication being if you're not "good enough" to get a weapon via T5, or Levi EX, or T7, then the option is, of course, Atma. But Atma ignores effort, because it's completely random. If the 40+ hour guy had the option to dedicate time to learn T5 or whatever, then obviously he would, and even if RNG is a **** to him there he at least is gaining tomes, experience, and unlocking further options via weathered weapons. But this guy can't; that's why he's going after Atma. It's something he can do without obligating himself for more than a few minutes at a time. It's something he can hop on and attempt to make progress on even if he only has ten minutes to do so.

Ideally, effort expended for each of these "alternate paths" should be about equal. In other words, it should take about as much "effort" to get Atma as it does to get comparable items (in this case, most likely Levi EX and T5 weapons). But thanks to the RNG nature of things, the amount of "effort" varies wildly.

For example, me and a couple of my friends. I've been hunting Atma since the second day of the patch (couldn't play the first day). I just received my 6th one tonight. It's been about two weeks since patch? Something like that. I've spent over 25 hours between Southern Thanalan, Upper LN, and Western LN, trying to get those Atma. No luck yet, and to give you an idea of the "effort" I've put in, I received the Kill Enemies rank 5 achievement last Saturday (the 19th) and I'm already over 5k deep into the final one. Sure, some of those are trash from roulette runs, but the vast majority are from FATE's. And I don't even stay the whole FATE most of the time! Toss out Overpower's until I bottom out on TP, kill the stragglers attacking me and then move on.

My friend, the Bard, has been farming the Atma since patch day. He has put almost 50 hours into Atma farming since then, basically making it the go-to thing he's doing besides roulette and Titan. He has received one Atma. 50+ hours for one compared to 40+ for six.

Finally, there's my friend, the Paladin. He has spent maybe a total of 5 hours doing FATE's, almost all of them incidental (i.e. he was passing by and "OH! Hey! A FATE!"). He has received seven Atma. He has a wife, toddler, and full time salaried job that usually occupies him for 60-70 hours a week. And with 1/10 of the time put into acquiring Atma, he has received more than I have, and WAY more than my Bard buddy. Great for him of course, but overall it's indicative of a bad system.

Effort put forth towards a goal should rewarded, with greater effort receiving greater rewards. Anything less is blatantly unfair.

And yes, I know the world is not "fair." The fact of the matter is, we get enough of that ******** outside in the real world everyday. I don't know about anyone else, but when I come home and play a video game for the purpose of entertainment I don't want to face the soul-crushing nature of random chance, laughing at me despite my best efforts. I get enough of that in the real world, I sure as hell don't need it in my games.
#115 Apr 24 2014 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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Both sides make good points for and against. I find myself on opposite sides of posters I normally agree with/don't agree with. Smiley: lol I will take the middle path this time around.

The two nice points I like are:

1) Multiple paths, multiple weapons

2) Having your level being capped, losing access to many of your abilities is not fun


Comparing this system with some of 11's older systems (like Dynamis) does kind of put it in perspective and make us seem a little whiny. At the same time, people keep saying they don't want to do that crap anymore. And in 11, your level wasn't capped off in most cases.



However no one has really answered my question that I've asked about 3 times now:

WHY do you need this animus weapon right meow now??!!?!?!

Please, dear god, tell me why.

Edited, Apr 24th 2014 3:13am by HitomeOfBismarck
#116 Apr 24 2014 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
However no one has really answered my question that I've asked about 3 times now:

WHY do you need this animus weapon right meow now??!!?!?!

Please, dear god, tell me why.

You don't, but when the drop rate is this bad there's a good chance your average player will NEVER get it before giving up in disgust.
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#117 Apr 24 2014 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
Turin wrote:
Actually, the problem is that there is no viable alternative for the vast majority of players. Turn 5 weapons are roughly comparable to Zenith weapons. Some are better, some are worse, some are the same, but they are similar enough that you can't say that Turn 5 is the the clear best for everyone. That makes Atma the better choice over Turn 5. As far as Coil 2 drops, didn't we have a huge thread a couple weeks ago about how only two parties had legitimately cleared without cheating? Kind of makes it hard to farm for mirrors when only a very small number of people can actually beat the content. That really just leaves Leviathan. Have you ever tried doing EX runs with a pickup group? If you had, you'd know what an exercise in futility that is. Basically, you either grind Atma, or have a group decent enough to farm Leviathan. Those are the only two real options for most people. People ******** about one of those options being mind numbingly boring is a pretty legitimate complaint, especially if they don't have the means to pursue the other option.


The soldiery weapons do not require you to beat the whole of Coil 2. They are a viable alternative to everyone.

Your post roughly sums up the complaints about the Zodiac quests. The complainers deny/ignore one or more of the alternative progression paths and then claim there is an issue here.

#118 Apr 24 2014 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The soldiery weapons do not require you to beat the whole of Coil 2. They are a viable alternative to everyone.

Your post roughly sums up the complaints about the Zodiac quests. The complainers deny/ignore one or more of the alternative progression paths and then claim there is an issue here.


Soldiery weapons require:
- You beat T5
- You beat T6
- You beat T7
- You beat the RNG on T7
- You farm 1300 Soldiery

They're not particularly easy to get when you consider the lockout, and the fact that you're probably lotting against 7 other people. For me personally I haven't even started progression into coil 2, clearing T7 and getting a drop would likely take weeks, if not months.

Levi Ex weapons require you to:
- Beat Garuda/Titan/Ifrit EX
- Beat the PF unless you have a static
- Beat the tiny chance for a mirror if you're inclined that way

Also not a particularly easy farm, clearing Titan EX in the DF at the moment is a major pain in the ***. Simpler than coil I think for sure, but still not trivial. It took me about 20 runs to get my Axe from Levi EX, with countless terrible parties along the way.


Basically, if you're a casual player and don't have a solid FC or static, then chances are you might be gated behind Titan EX or Turn 5. It's these people who have a very valid reason to be complaining about Atma/Animus grind. Because for them, there actually is no other reasonable path to upgrading their weapons. I'm still not sure why two separate weapon paths are gated behind second coil (Gerolts and High Allagan) but I suspect they'll be adding an alternative to acquire Gerolt's in 2.3.



Edited, Apr 24th 2014 9:07am by blowfin
#119 Apr 24 2014 at 3:39 AM Rating: Good
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Not really because if you are not doing any of the content in the first two paths, you do not need a weapon of that strength to do the third.

The complaint that atma requires low level content is negated by the fact that one of your possible paths consists of high level content (exactly like the original relic quest, actually). After completing the three extremes, you obtain an i90 weapon and have access to Levi Ex: substantially easier than Titan Ex. Then you have the choice to grind Leviathan Ex or grind atmas.

One is grinding low level sh*t (not necessarily all the time) and is apparently boring. The other is grinding high level sh*t and is apparently boring.

Like I said earlier: you want a weapon, that you do not need, to become easier to get (whether that's by modifying drop rate, revamping the system, etc).

And, as we just established, you want it quickly for no apparent reason. "Because new players will never get it" is not a valid reason because atma drop rates will be buffed as new content is released (if not sooner) due to this already large backlash from players seeking powerful weapons for minimum effort.

Let's assume atma drop rates are now at 20%, books now cost 200 myth each, and the FATEs in the books spawn every 30 minutes.

What are you going to do with all of your animus weapons? Sit there and be bored because you've already established the fact that you do not want to do the other two paths which means your journey ends here until the next update.

We've already been down that road: it was called 2.0. Get a bunch of jobs to 50, get a bunch of relics for those jobs, then sit in Mor Dhona because you don't want to do coil and have no need for the weapon you just acquired.

Edited, Apr 26th 2014 5:31am by HitomeOfBismarck
#120 Apr 24 2014 at 4:25 AM Rating: Good
blowfin wrote:
Soldiery weapons require:
- You beat T5
- You beat T6
- You beat T7
- You beat the RNG on T7
- You farm 1300 Soldiery

They're not particularly easy to get when you consider the lockout, and the fact that you're probably lotting against 7 other people. For me personally I haven't even started progression into coil 2, clearing T7 and getting a drop would likely take weeks, if not months.

Levi Ex weapons require you to:
- Beat Garuda/Titan/Ifrit EX
- Beat the PF unless you have a static
- Beat the tiny chance for a mirror if you're inclined that way

Also not a particularly easy farm, clearing Titan EX in the DF at the moment is a major pain in the ***. Simpler than coil I think for sure, but still not trivial. It took me about 20 runs to get my Axe from Levi EX, with countless terrible parties along the way.

Basically, if you're a casual player and don't have a solid FC or static, then chances are you might be gated behind Titan EX or Turn 5. It's these people who have a very valid reason to be complaining about Atma/Animus grind. Because for them, there actually is no other reasonable path to upgrading their weapons. I'm still not sure why two separate weapon paths are gated behind second coil (Gerolts and High Allagan) but I suspect they'll be adding an alternative to acquire Gerolt's in 2.3.


Casual =/= bad player. Actually beating the contents and getting capped soldiery is not that much of a time-consuming task. It just takes skill. Neither is getting your Atma weapon. It just takes patience. I'm a casual player by all definitions of the word. Maybe an hour or two played per day, sometimes I don't play at all. It took me a ~month to get my Atma that way. It's not out of casual's reach, and neither is the rest of the progression paths if the player doesn't suck at the game. They really do not require such a time investment that casuals couldn't pull it off in a reasonable timeframe.

What you're saying is bad players have no resonable path to upgrading their weapons, but why would they deserve them? They don't deserve the weapons if they don't have the patience nor the skill required to do what is asked. Handing out free weapons of equal strength while the rest of us are doing content that requires our patience and skill would be a huge insult.


Edited, Apr 24th 2014 10:27am by Hyanmen
#121 Apr 24 2014 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What you're saying is bad players have no resonable path to upgrading their weapons, but why would they deserve them? They don't deserve the weapons if they don't have the patience nor the skill required to do what is asked. Handing out free weapons of equal strength while the rest of us are doing content that requires our patience and skill would be a huge insult.


I'm not really saying that, maybe it came across a bit wrong. All I'm really trying to say is that the path for more casual (no i'm not calling them bad) players is tedious at best. It's not particularly engaging content. I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Not really because if you are not doing any of the content in the first two paths, you do not need a weapon of that strength to do the third.

Etc.


Look I totally understand where you're coming from, things need to be gated. I just think it could have been done... better? Make FATEs rack up something like goo in a jug when you complete them, trade in said jug full of goo for some Atma? It's not that hard to conceptualise right?

"Easier" is a strong term. I'm thinking along the lines of more "rational".

As to why you'd want to get your **** upgraded, the horse has actually just bolted on that one:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/23uhb8/anybody_got_a_copy_of_famitsu/

#122 Apr 24 2014 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
blowfin wrote:
I'm not really saying that, maybe it came across a bit wrong. All I'm really trying to say is that the path for more casual (no i'm not calling them bad) players is tedious at best. It's not particularly engaging content. I'll leave it at that.


I think we are almost reaching an understanding. Casual players can do the (what you'd call) engaging content because casual players are not necessarily bad players and said engaging content does not require a significant time investment in this game. And if it's not challenging (engaging) then it is going to be easy and tedious (which you can do at your own pace), whether it be about doing FATEs or doing something else.

Edited, Apr 24th 2014 10:55am by Hyanmen
#123 Apr 24 2014 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Like I said earlier: you want a weapon, that you do not need, to become easier to get (whether that's by modifying drop rate, revamping the system, etc).


Less RNG/More Fair/Objective-based Progression != "Easier".

You can't get any "Easier" than killing Lv5 squirrels. The simple fact that Player A can get all of them in 5 hours and player B puts in 50 hours to get 1 (Quor's example above) is just ridiculous. It isn't fair, and it sure doesn't bolster confidence in the players involved. I hate feeling like I'm playing the lottery in a video game, especially not when it comes to major progression.

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And, as we just established, you want it quickly for no apparent reason. "Because new players will never get it" is not a valid reason because atma drop rates will be buffed as new content is released (if not sooner) due to this already large backlash from players seeking powerful weapons for minimum effort.


"No Apparent Reason"? How about......progression, which is... you know, the whole reason to play an (MMO)RPG in the first place? When you start a character, one of your main goals is to "make your character more powerful"? And hey. Weapons tend to do that moreso than most pieces of gear, right? Maybe you want to take that spiffy weapon out and enjoy how powerful it is even in open-world content. Maybe you enjoy being able to roflsmash stuff in the later dungeons? Maybe you're a tank and you very much enjoy the easier, more smooth ride that comes from having a powerful sword (since it is easier for you to hold hate anywhere you're not Level Sync'd?).

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What are you going to do with all of your animus weapons? Sit there and be bored because you've already established the fact that you do not want to do the other two paths which means your journey ends here until the next update.


Uh.....enjoy the weapon in all the things I mentioned above? Just because you don't go to Coil doesn't mean that Lv50 sweet upgraded weapon is suddenly unusable. It isn't like that weapon can't be used in the open world or anywhere else that's not Level Sync'd, right?

And as for why a player would need it "NOW", it isn't so much "Now" as it is "I could get it in 5 hours or I could spend 500 hours and still not have it". There's a type of frustration a player feels when they put in 50, 500 hours and some braggart is going "It ain't THAT hard! The drop Rates are fine! I got mine in 5 hours!"

EDIT: Also like to point out that since this is an MMORPG, it is ever-evolving, new stuff is constantly getting added. Sometimes it is nice to just lean back in the chair and say "I get to take a break for awhile."

Constant slaving away at a game and never feeling that "My Work is Done (at least temporarily)!" feel is not very healthy for a game. Getting small breaks, like finishing this weapon before the next major patch is actually a healthy thing for some people. Now, the die-hards that have to log on 24/7 are gonna get bored and start acting like idiots, sure. Every game has those types. Just log into WoW and take a trip around some of the major populated areas to see all kinds of griefing and general idiocy. But for your average non-idiot, some of us are loving the fact we can take a break and play something else for awhile. Then when the new patch DOES come out, we come back refreshed..... while the die-hard "must play all the time" people are whining about repetition and ho-hum.

Edited, Apr 24th 2014 7:32am by Lyrailis
#124 Apr 24 2014 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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1,556 posts
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Look I totally understand where you're coming from, things need to be gated. I just think it could have been done... better? Make FATEs rack up something like goo in a jug when you complete them, trade in said jug full of goo for some Atma? It's not that hard to conceptualise right?

"Easier" is a strong term. I'm thinking along the lines of more "rational".

As to why you'd want to get your sh*t upgraded, the horse has actually just bolted on that one:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/23uhb8/anybody_got_a_copy_of_famitsu/


I am not saying things should be gated at all.

Reason? Everything in this game is gated. We finally have something that isn't.

If you think Novus weapons will contain the same level as the current endgame dungeon's final turn, you're sadly mistaken.

From that thread:

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Why not? The final upgrade could requires a T9 clear while High Allagan is a random drop. They could be comparable.

WoW's Legendary typically follow this kind of progress. Completing the "grinding" give you a good weapon on par with everything dropped, but it's not until you cleared everything that it become significantly better.


So if it is i155, it's going to require you do a little bit more than grind low level FATEs. Think they're going to add another path of progression for endgame users when we already have several? No, they won't. Requiring a T9 kill? Yeah...gonna say that Zodiark will remain a casual-based progression path.

Edited, Apr 24th 2014 7:58am by HitomeOfBismarck
#125 Apr 24 2014 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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1,556 posts
Lyrailis wrote:
Less RNG/More Fair/Objective-based Progression != "Easier".


Easier to obtain? Yes, I believe easy is implied. You can play with semantics all you like. It is easier, by default, to go the atma/animus route than do Leviathan Ex and a mirror or turn 9.

Lyrailis wrote:
You can't get any "Easier" than killing Lv5 squirrels. The simple fact that Player A can get all of them in 5 hours and player B puts in 50 hours to get 1 (Quor's example above) is just ridiculous. It isn't fair, and it sure doesn't bolster confidence in the players involved. I hate feeling like I'm playing the lottery in a video game, especially not when it comes to major progression.


So don't do what you dislike. Simple as that.

Lyrailis wrote:
"No Apparent Reason"? How about......progression, which is... you know, the whole reason to play an (MMO)RPG in the first place? When you start a character, one of your main goals is to "make your character more powerful"?


For what purpose?

You don't seem to see the link. You have no apparent reason because you have no apparent interest in the other two paths. The other two paths are what would benefit from animus. If you do not have any interest in the other two paths at the moment, any i90 or i95 will get the job done.

Lyrailis wrote:
And hey. Weapons tend to do that moreso than most pieces of gear, right? Maybe you want to take that spiffy weapon out and enjoy how powerful it is even in open-world content. Maybe you enjoy being able to roflsmash stuff in the later dungeons? Maybe you're a tank and you very much enjoy the easier, more smooth ride that comes from having a powerful sword (since it is easier for you to hold hate anywhere you're not Level Sync'd?).


So if MMOs are about improving your character and SE has given you three clear paths to do so, why do you not just put in the work to complete one path?

Learning T6 through T8 will take around 20+30+35 = 85 hours. Farming Leviathan for his weapon and mirror will take anywhere from 20-70+ hours.

So SE can do two things:

1) Make the animus/novus weapon really powerful (on par with some coil (unidentified tome) and Leviathan + mirror drops while making it require an equal amount of time as farming Levi Ex and learning T6-8

or

2) Make the animus/novus weapon pretty weak compared to the other two and, as a result, make it require less time to complete.

I think you know which path SE has in mind. They are clearly trying to make the ilevel on the animus weapons relevant to what drops from coil and Leviathan so that you don't feel like you are wasting time grinding for a weapon that isn't as good as the ones mentioned.

Overall, a wise decision.

Lyrailis wrote:
Uh.....enjoy the weapon in all the things I mentioned above? Just because you don't go to Coil doesn't mean that Lv50 sweet upgraded weapon is suddenly unusable. It isn't like that weapon can't be used in the open world or anywhere else that's not Level Sync'd, right?


Yet none of those situations will ever require it hence why you don't need it ASAP. Nice to have? Sure. Must have ASAP? Definitely not.

Lyrailis wrote:
And as for why a player would need it "NOW", it isn't so much "Now" as it is "I could get it in 5 hours or I could spend 500 hours and still not have it". There's a type of frustration a player feels when they put in 50, 500 hours and some braggart is going "It ain't THAT hard! The drop Rates are fine! I got mine in 5 hours!"


The probability that you spend 500 hours trying to get atmas is extremely low (actually, might as well be zero). You aren't downing raid bosses. You aren't killing extreme primals. So yes: you are going to find variability in the route that requires less work and can be solo'd. On average, it seems most people spend around the following on animus:

13500 myth @ 50 myth every 8 minutes = 270 runs @ 8 minutes each = 2160 minutes = 36 hours
Using myself as a reference point, atmas took me 20 hours to obtain
Doing the content in all the books is probably another 20 - 30 hours

So you're spending around 81 hours total for your animus weapon or around 3.35 days.

That's less than the amount of hours it requires to learn the first 3 turns and I was being pretty generous with the amount of time.

So yes: if you want something, work for it. If you have no interest in coil and no interest in Levi, then there's your alternative which, quite frankly, is less time consuming to obtain than the other two tasks by far.


Lyrailis wrote:
Constant slaving away at a game and never feeling that "My Work is Done (at least temporarily)!" feel is not very healthy for a game. Getting small breaks, like finishing this weapon before the next major patch is actually a healthy thing for some people. Now, the die-hards that have to log on 24/7 are gonna get bored and start acting like idiots, sure. Every game has those types. Just log into WoW and take a trip around some of the major populated areas to see all kinds of griefing and general idiocy. But for your average non-idiot, some of us are loving the fact we can take a break and play something else for awhile. Then when the new patch DOES come out, we come back refreshed..... while the die-hard "must play all the time" people are whining about repetition and ho-hum.


Uh...ok. So basically what I am hearing is that it's healthier to work on your animus in a casual manner instead of burning yourself out grinding for hours. This is kind of what I have been saying the entire time.

Oh well: we can be miserable together. I hate leveling in dungeons but need to level up my MNK. So I'm going to do a silly thing and do something I don't like while playing a video game in my spare time.

Which is honestly what this boils down to.
#126 Apr 24 2014 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
I just made a decision pretty early on that I wasn't going to waste more than an hour a day trying for an atma since my play time is precious and I'm not really in a hurry to get an Animus for content I won't be doing.
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