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#77 Apr 22 2014 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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#78 Apr 22 2014 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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#79 Apr 22 2014 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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#80 Apr 22 2014 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aha! My sock detector senses were correct!

Back on topic: Atma farming sucks, the drop rate sucks, I'm still only 1/12 because I spent way too much time crafting and leveling other jobs, and I really hope SE increases the drop rate once they add in the next infusion of stuff.
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#81 Apr 22 2014 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Back on topic: Atma farming sucks, the drop rate sucks, I'm still only 1/12 because I spent way too much time crafting and leveling other jobs, and I really hope SE increases the drop rate once they add in the next infusion of stuff.


They have to. Or, at least, you'd THINK they have to... but I'm not sure it will happen this soon. We'll see, though.
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#82 Apr 22 2014 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Drop rate is one way, but I'm still of the mind that having a set number would work out better, if only because it gives a tangible goal. You could crush them all out in the span of a day, or take your time and do a zone or two whenever you have the time and get it in a few weeks or a month.
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#83 Apr 22 2014 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
Drop rate is one way, but I'm still of the mind that having a set number would work out better, if only because it gives a tangible goal. You could crush them all out in the span of a day, or take your time and do a zone or two whenever you have the time and get it in a few weeks or a month.


What drove me to do it is the chance that the next one could be it, even if I had only been there for 5 minutes. It can be a great motivator. On the other hand I am not finding myself so motivated to grind myth since there is nothing to look forward to on a single run of contents. I know what I'm getting, and I know I need to do 15 more runs to reach my goal.

I'm not saying that one system is better than the other. I'm just saying that it's not so black and white.
#84 Apr 22 2014 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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It's only a great motivator until you just stop caring after not getting the drop for so long that you have every single FATE in the zone memorized. Once you reach that point, you pretty much just hope they do something in the next update to make it suck less. I absolutely refuse to keep grinding FATEs until something is done. Sadly, I don't have a group capable of taking down the EX primals, so I'm stuck with my Zenith weapon for now. At least it still has a neat glow instead of a lame blue finish.
#85 Apr 22 2014 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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#86 Apr 22 2014 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm really surprised people sub defaulted this when it is absolutely sound advice.

The particular FATE in question when this reply was made, "Giant Seps," was downed in no time at all by just a few players and their chocobos when I got my clear. Unless I was at a FATE that was extremely close to this one (and even then, it would be cutting it close), there's no way I'd have been able to get to it in time to get credit. Doing other FATEs in the area is most definitely a gamble which may or may not pay off.


Sometimes FATEs are done way too fast.

Earlier today I was in Oakwood and that coeurl FATE popped, the boss one where you fight, I think its name is Slasher. It is that area right next to where that Male Crab pops that the Qiqirn were wanting to harvest eggs from (lol!).

It popped while I was mining Lightning Rocks (since that was the GC quest). As soon as it popped, I switched to CNJ and went in ASAP.

Here comes a stampede of about 10-12 players and I was tapping my fingers on the desk waiting for that stupid ability lockout to cycle and when it finally did, I started throwing Stone and Aero at it as fast I could.

It died about 20 seconds later and I got Bronze.

So....

1). See FATE pop.
2). Switch to CNJ.
3). Wait for the ability lockout.
4). 20 seconds to get any damage in at all.
5). End up with Bronze.

That's what... 90-120 seconds and it was over? And I was standing right next to it when it began, even!
#87 Apr 22 2014 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quor wrote:
Drop rate is one way, but I'm still of the mind that having a set number would work out better, if only because it gives a tangible goal. You could crush them all out in the span of a day, or take your time and do a zone or two whenever you have the time and get it in a few weeks or a month.


What drove me to do it is the chance that the next one could be it, even if I had only been there for 5 minutes. It can be a great motivator. On the other hand I am not finding myself so motivated to grind myth since there is nothing to look forward to on a single run of contents. I know what I'm getting, and I know I need to do 15 more runs to reach my goal.

I'm not saying that one system is better than the other. I'm just saying that it's not so black and white.


This is pretty much where I sit as well.

It is tied to your personality. Perhaps I should not go gambling because I seem to like RNG-type systems. The thought that I could get my drop on the very next FATE kept me going for 5 hours when I said, "OK I swear the next one will be the last and I'll log off to go to bed/study."

I have yet to go back into Mythflox. I just can't grind that way anymore. It's super boring to me and is the reason I obtained my first book two weeks after obtaining my atma. I had to rely on farming coil to supply me with myth among other things. lol And you know why coil didn't burn me out? The drops at the end are based on RNG.

You're welcome to complain about the drop rates just as I will complain about the tedious grind of 1500 myth every time I want a **** book. It's unrealistic and probably should have been 500. 13500 would easily let me upgrade 2~3 jobs with myth gear.

I do think that changing up the grind from atmas to books was a wise choice, though. It would be a lie to say I enjoyed every minute of the atma camping just like it'd be a lie to tell me you enjoy every minute of the myth farming. What I don't understand: why are we so quick to debase a system that actually requires some work and isn't barred, at all, by a one week lockout or wall of any type? Why are we so quick to judge a system that actually has a really cool reward at the end and isn't just a waste of time? I don't get it.

When you got your first relic weapon in 14, didn't you feel something? After you had killed Titan and farmed that pain in the *** 900 philosophy, didn't you feel like you had actually accomplished something amazing?

I know I did. I know I will feel the same way once my animus is complete. "Boy, that was one long grind that I'd never want to do again. But, the journey was worth it because in my hands I hold a staff THAT WILL CONSUME YOUR SOUL...and is purple."


So in your opinion...how do you think SE should swing to appease both of us? Because I don't think appeasing both sides will happen.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 1:38am by HitomeOfBismarck
#88 Apr 23 2014 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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So in your opinion...how do you think SE should swing to appease both of us? Because I don't think appeasing both sides will happen.


Easy.

Every time you fail, X is added to your chance until you succeed.

You COULD get it sooner, but if your luck stinks, you are guaranteed to hit 100% eventually.

Just pulling some numbers out of thin air, let's say the starting drop chance is 1%.

Every time you fail to get the Atma, this rises 0.5%. Your second would be 1.5% chance, your third would be 2% chance. That way, 198 times later you hit that 100% and you'll get your Atma. Or if you think ~200 times is too fast, make it 0.3% increases, that way it'd take about 300 times to get 100%.
#89 Apr 23 2014 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
So in your opinion...how do you think SE should swing to appease both of us? Because I don't think appeasing both sides will happen.


Create new level 50+ dungeons. 12 of them. Each with unique mechanics like the doors in Ampador or the bombs in Brayflox. Each of them short like Braxflox, and also fun and unique.

Make the 12 Atmas drop from the new dungeons.

Drop rate can be the same. Random, whatever. Just as long as the new high-level weapon is gained by completing high-level content. Casual content, fine. 4 man, light party content.

Is it too much to ask the developer of the game to create new content to play? Are 2 Primals and 3 dungeons enough to satisfy the players base for 3-6 months? If you add in a despicable time-sink RNG low-level repetitive BS then sure. We can debate the merits of this system all day but you can't deny it's ******* off players. 100% of the players I play with actually.

You asked if I enjoyed getting my relic after Titan. Yes, because Titan is not a low-level FATE. You said yourself you did not exactly enjoy farming ATMAs. That's because NOBODY DOES!! You don't want to farm Braflox all day? Hot **** me neither. I want to farm 12 new dungeons for 3-months and then get 12 more.

It not the destination, it's the journey, right? Well this journey blows goats.


#90 Apr 23 2014 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
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So in your opinion...how do you think SE should swing to appease both of us? Because I don't think appeasing both sides will happen.


Easy.

Every time you fail, X is added to your chance until you succeed.

You COULD get it sooner, but if your luck stinks, you are guaranteed to hit 100% eventually.

Just pulling some numbers out of thin air, let's say the starting drop chance is 1%.

Every time you fail to get the Atma, this rises 0.5%. Your second would be 1.5% chance, your third would be 2% chance. That way, 198 times later you hit that 100% and you'll get your Atma. Or if you think ~200 times is too fast, make it 0.3% increases, that way it'd take about 300 times to get 100%.


Obviously this is another way of doing it but there's one massive difference you have to take into account.

That is, the fact that in your model people are going to get their Atmas at a faster rate than in the current model. At that point it's not really a fair comparison because it goes against the developer's intended pace of progress. To make it fair the current drop rate should be higher % by default too, in which case the necessity for a system like in your proposal can be argued against.

Basically if you're going to see higher drop rates for every successive fate then the initial drop rate (and the successive drop rates) must start from a point where you're progressing at the same pace (on average). Considering the current drop rate seems to be somewhere around 1% your model simply can't start at that percentage if we want to keep things equal. And if we don't want that, why not just raise the current drop rate since the end result is more Atmas in circulation regardless?

Quote:
Is it too much to ask the developer of the game to create new content to play? Are 2 Primals and 3 dungeons enough to satisfy the players base for 3-6 months? If you add in a despicable time-sink RNG low-level repetitive BS then sure. We can debate the merits of this system all day but you can't deny it's ******* off players. 100% of the players I play with actually.


Then do the plethora of content available that gets you to the same end result without having to do a single low-level repetitive "BS". You have been called out many times on this board, yet you keep acting like you have no choice. If we're talking about BS, that assumption is a great contender.


Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 2:44pm by Hyanmen
#91 Apr 23 2014 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Then do the plethora of content available that gets you to the same end result without having to do a single low-level repetitive "BS". You have been called out many times on this board, yet you keep acting like you have no choice. If we're talking about BS, that assumption is a great contender.


Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 2:44pm by Hyanmen


What plethora of content...? The only content that gets you the "same result" is:

Second Turn 6-9 (This isn't a plethora.)
Leviathan Extreme (This isn't a plethora)
First Turn 5 (This isn't a plethora)
Spamming Brayflox for Solid every few weeks for a weathered then restoring it via Turn 7 item.

.....

Yeah, so what plethora of content? Second turn is on a week lockout, so it's not like you can continually focus on it once you're through. Leviathan Extreme Yoshi P admitted has a ****** up drop rate due to a system not implemented in 2.2 that got pushed back, spamming 1 dungeon and turn 5 doesn't equate to a ton of content.
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#92 Apr 23 2014 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Then do the plethora of content available that gets you to the same end result without having to do a single low-level repetitive "BS". You have been called out many times on this board, yet you keep acting like you have no choice. If we're talking about BS, that assumption is a great contender.


Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 2:44pm by Hyanmen


What plethora of content...? The only content that gets you the "same result" is:

Second Turn 6-9 (This isn't a plethora.)
Leviathan Extreme (This isn't a plethora)
First Turn 5 (This isn't a plethora)
Spamming Brayflox for Solid every few weeks for a weathered then restoring it via Turn 7 item.

.....

Yeah, so what plethora of content? Second turn is on a week lockout, so it's not like you can continually focus on it once you're through. Leviathan Extreme Yoshi P admitted has a @#%^ed up drop rate due to a system not implemented in 2.2 that got pushed back, spamming 1 dungeon and turn 5 doesn't equate to a ton of content.

"Plethora" is not a strictly defined amount. All 4 of those activities you listed together could constitute plethora. Of course any single activity by itself isn't a plethora. That's like El Guapo saying he doesn't have a plethora of pinatas because no single pinata on its own is a plethora.

As far as spam-able content, you are only limited to one Hard Mode dungeon if you insist on doing the most efficient one. There could be a dozen dungeons that reward soldiery, but if you limit yourself to the one that you can speed run, of course the game is going to feel like there's limited content.
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#93 Apr 23 2014 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Then do the plethora of content available that gets you to the same end result without having to do a single low-level repetitive "BS". You have been called out many times on this board, yet you keep acting like you have no choice. If we're talking about BS, that assumption is a great contender.


Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 2:44pm by Hyanmen


What plethora of content...? The only content that gets you the "same result" is:

Second Turn 6-9 (This isn't a plethora.)
Leviathan Extreme (This isn't a plethora)
First Turn 5 (This isn't a plethora)
Spamming Brayflox for Solid every few weeks for a weathered then restoring it via Turn 7 item.

.....

Yeah, so what plethora of content? Second turn is on a week lockout, so it's not like you can continually focus on it once you're through. Leviathan Extreme Yoshi P admitted has a @#%^ed up drop rate due to a system not implemented in 2.2 that got pushed back, spamming 1 dungeon and turn 5 doesn't equate to a ton of content.


I don't know what EQ clone you are comparing the game to but 5 different progression paths for the best weapons available is great by any standards. Especially when only one out of said five progression paths are guilty of offering low-level repetitive "BS". Clearly the focus is on grinding the top end high level stuff for the best rewards.

And more importantly it is infinitely better to grinding gil for 2 years in outdated easy content as the single means of obtaining the best weapon available. These FFXI comparisons are so unfair yet so hilarious.
#94 Apr 23 2014 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
...you keep acting like you have no choice.


Is the relic weapon going to be part of a larger permanent weapon progression?

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Naoki Yoshida states that the Zodiac Weapons are a form of upgraded Relic Weapon which will take a considerable amount of time to complete, and will be upgraded in the form of phases in each patch. Yoshida goes on to mention that not many players will have the first phase completed before the second one launches in 2.25, and that this is a very overtime goal for players to work on and that their viability as future weapons will remain for some time.


Completing boring content is now a required step on the path to upgrade relic. And it's boring. I'm asking for actual fun gameplay.

What exactly is your point besides that you don't like my opinion? Do you have something to say about the direction of game development or the hidden benefits of the Atma system? Stop making this personal. I'm not attacking you, I'm not attacking FFXIV as a whole. Requiring players to suffer through boring content as a path to the most powerful weapon upgrade is a bad design choice that is making players (not just me) unhappy.


Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 2:33pm by Gnu
#95 Apr 23 2014 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm also in the camp that players don't HAVE to suffer through this... and those who do can also limit the depth of their suffering.

Unless you're Nashred, and then SE just hates you.... sorry, Nash.

This just reminds me a lot of the Trials system they implemented in FFXI. Boring as ****? Yes, at times it can be. But a good alternate progression path that at least made gear accessible to people not fortunate enough to have statics? Yep, it's that too.

I'm doing the Zodiak/Animas/whatever quest for my paladin, but I plan on getting weapons for my other jobs when I start farming coil/primals later on. I view that as a pretty rational, non-stressful way to play the game.

EDIT:

Here's the problem...

A lot of players seem to want the Zodiak quest to be gated by more "challenging" content, or they want the RNG to be mostly removed from the equation.

The problem with the first part of that is gating the quest with what players deem as challenging -- usually extreme primals or advanced stages of coil -- would alienate the players who this quest was implemented for. Also, we already have weapon progression paths through that "challenging" content, so using that to gate the Zodiak quest would be somewhat redundant.

As for the RNG, I really believe people would just blow through the content if the RNG were largely taken out of the equation, UNLESS they made their calculations so you'd need to do an ungodly number of FATEs to progress. Again, this would really alienate the people who this quest was probably designed for. People who have way more free time would have a huge advantage over dedicated players with busier lives.

The RNG definitely isn't fair... just ask Nash... but it is somewhat of an equalizer. Most people who put their heads down and farm for a week straight will probably get all of their atma, with a small percentage of unlucky souls stuck in atma ****. Seems there should be some way to prevent Nashred situations from happening, but I totally get why the RNG is such a big piece of this, as opposed to making set numbers or locking the quest behind fights that only a small percentage of players can farm.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2014 12:20pm by Thayos
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#96 Apr 23 2014 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
I'm also in the camp that players don't HAVE to suffer through this...


Are you saying that you don't need the upgraded relic weapon for the next step in the relic quest? Yoshi says you do.




#97 Apr 23 2014 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Are you saying that you don't need the upgraded relic weapon for the next step in the relic quest? Yoshi says you do.


No, I'm saying that players can choose whether to pursue a relic weapon or another type of weapon that doesn't require this quest.... kind of like how in XI, a red mage didn't HAVE to suffer through Dynamis to get a duelist chapeau (even though plenty of suckers like myself insisted on doing so anyway).
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#98 Apr 23 2014 at 1:27 PM Rating: Default
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Gnu wrote:
Thayos wrote:
I'm also in the camp that players don't HAVE to suffer through this...


Are you saying that you don't need the upgraded relic weapon for the next step in the relic quest? Yoshi says you do.


No, you got the option to either go after Leviathan, spend your tomes or do actual end-game progression. Relics only exist now because people would ***** if their "hard work" was meaningless, just like they were when leviathan's gear was revealed and people were ******** Levi Hard Mode could potentially drop i95 weapons when relics weren't even that.

So every major patch or so he just lets you continue to upgrade them, but there will always be for intents and purposes, better options.
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#100 Apr 23 2014 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
That hat destroyed more friendships in FFXI than any other virtual object in the history of virtual worlds.

Some people still don't speak to me in XI.


Specially when that infamous "0" lot bug came about and many people lot 0 on it when it finally dropped lol.
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#101 Apr 23 2014 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Took me more than two years of grinding away in three different linkshells before I finally got it.

Really puts the Zodiak quest in perspective.
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