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#1 Apr 20 2014 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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...is the stupidest boring 1995 roadblock sh*t Yoshi ever managed to pull out of his ass.
We`re right back to 2010, where people wasting away their youth pressing the same two
buttons while running around naked to receive maximum healing exp were considered
the realm`s finest warriors. Only that we now are warriors of light that run around the
realm reborn to two-shot squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours. Because, like, one
of those squirrels will have an atma stuffed right inside its bowels. Like, because that`s
what true warriors of light do.

There, I said it.
#2 Apr 20 2014 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I don't disagree.

I'm all for long term goals, but maybe set an upper end cap, say...250 FATE's complete in an area also yields the Atma, OR the 1% drop rate it currently is. That would be nicer.
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#3 Apr 20 2014 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Agreed. I don't mind having to put in the time. I just wish that time could be spent doing something less mind numbingly boring than grinding low level FATEs on max level jobs.
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#4 Apr 20 2014 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really get the hate. Zodiac weapon quest is only a single progression path in a game with multiple progression paths.

Believe it or not, this kind of progression style has its niche and SE is not stepping on anyone's toes by offering this progression path as long as alternatives exist. Hell, the weapons are fairly weak too in comparison to the alternatives.

This kind of "if I don't like it, it shouldn't exist!" mentality in the community is seriously a let down.
#5 Apr 20 2014 at 7:39 AM Rating: Default
Yep. This is 14 players and modern MMO players. "This is too hard!" "I want the easy route!" "I don't want to play this game for years, I want to get the best stuff without working all the damned time for it" (and say the same thing a month or so after each new patch.)

Why not just start people out at LV50.. with LV50 gear, and let's all go from there.

Anyway who cares. I don't play this game anymore.
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#6 Apr 20 2014 at 7:40 AM Rating: Default
Yep. This is 14 players and modern MMO players. "This is too hard!" "I want the easy route!" "I don't want to play this game for years, I want to get the best stuff without working all the damned time for it" (and say the same thing a month or so after each new patch.)

Why not just start people out at LV50.. with LV50 gear, and let's all go from there.

Anyway who cares. I don't play this game anymore.
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#7 Apr 20 2014 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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You've piqued my curiosity.

For what reason do you need this animus weapon ASAP? I want to know where this huge gear wall is that requires them so I can try it. I too wish I didn't have to do mindless, repetitive tasks in a MMO. You know? Like idling around town waiting for a dungeon queue to pop so I can do a dungeon with a bunch of deaf mutes for the 827th time this month with zero chance of dying because the dungeon was designed to be idiot-proof. Or idling around town some more when there isn't any content left to do because they neglected to put a grind into the game.

Or is this just another thread with bitching from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?

Edited, May 8th 2014 4:20am by HitomeOfBismarck
#8 Apr 20 2014 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
...is the stupidest boring 1995 roadblock sh*t Yoshi ever managed to pull out of his ass.
We`re right back to 2010, where people wasting away their youth pressing the same two
buttons while running around naked to receive maximum healing exp were considered
the realm`s finest warriors. Only that we now are warriors of light that run around the
realm reborn to two-shot squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours. Because, like, one
of those squirrels will have an atma stuffed right inside its bowels. Like, because that`s
what true warriors of light do.

There, I said it.


Let's see..in 1995 I wasn't even playing MMOs as no MUDs that I did play I recall never even had 'Atmas' let alone 'farming' and were just glorified RP sessions. In 2010 WoW and variant clones were running rampant all of which had that "pressing same two buttons" type of system you speak of, which exists today, don't kid yourself, you'll always be hitting the same "few buttons over and over and over." So basically, what you said hasn't changed at all in the MMO universe from "1995" to now besides companies handing you everything for very little work.

Besides, for the amount of Animus weapons I see compared to Leviathan, Allagan or High Allagan weapons...pretty damn sure more people are happily going about this than you assume. I like the Zodiac quest because it shows exactly which generation of MMO gamers are playing this MMO. No one likes FATE spamming as NO ONE suggested it, not even the most casual 10 minute a day player, but the "grind" was pretty standard in MMOs for so long and should be mentioned that MMOs with 'said grind' lasted long and some still exist today compared to MMOs "without the grind" that tend to fail within a year, sometimes months after launch. ARR is a pure gear grind, this shouldn't be surprising.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 7:47am by Theonehio
#9 Apr 20 2014 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Finished up my last 3 Atma yesterday and today and bought my book early this morning. I already have all 3 Fates and leves done and most of the groups of 10. Once I actually started straight grinding them out I did 10 or so Fates and they dropped.

Regarding Fates for the book I waited 3 minutes for Giant Seps (it popped while I had the leve there going) then ported in and the Rain one was up so no waiting at all, and waited maybe 10 or so minutes for the Enemies one in East Shroud.

Did it take awhile? Yes. Do I think it was worth it? Yes.
If you don't then use the other upgrade paths. Then you can come back on here and bitch about the abysmal drop rate of the mirrors and unidentified tomestones.

If I could find a group that could clear turn 5 or Titan ex I'd be doing the other upgrade paths but there you go. And I'm guessing there are a lot of others in the same boat. Without turn 6/7 drops or Levi drops you're pretty much stuck with the zodiac. Now maybe once I've got my 4 books done for WHM I'll go after getting those clears on my MNK for the harder stuff.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 5:23pm by LebargeX
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#10 Apr 20 2014 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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@Hitome, TheOnehio
The point is not that it takes long, the point is that two-shotting squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours as a @LV 50 hero of the realm is insulting; it was already insulting at LV 3, btw.
This is BS; and you just have to see it?
No matter how you twist it, this "dedication wall" is so stupidly implemented, I wonder whether Yoshi can still sit straight after pulling that one out of his rear.
But I guess you two can only see the glorious wall, and not how ugly it is?

P.S.: I did over 200 fates. 1 Atma. Oh glorious fun.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 8:23pm by Rinsui
#11 Apr 20 2014 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not going to claim to know exactly which aspect of atma farming the thread creator takes issue with, but it seems like a lot of people are focused on the fact that it's a grind.

A grind can be handled in lots of different ways, and disliking atma farming doesn't necessarily mean the same player is against all forms of grinding in MMOs, or that they want everything handed to them. Sure, there's some people who are just against grinds in general (and that, in itself, is a valid opinion) but there's also people who'd love to grind but want it to be attached to engaging content. And for a lot of people I've seen in game and around forums, FATEs are not very engaging or enjoyable in their current form. I saw a decent amount of people complaining about how prominent they were as a form of leveling your classes back when the game came out, and those issues are magnified now that those same players are steamrolling those same low level FATEs all over again, except now with an extreme case of RNG attached and at the max level possible for each FATE. From what I've seen, even most people advocating for atma farming agree that repeating FATEs for hours on end is, well, not all that fun.

Granted, that FATEs aren't enjoyable is a subjective opinion, but it seems to be a fairly popular one, and subjective factors can still be worth discussing considering that anything related to enjoyment is subjective and that is one of the biggest factors in any video game or form of entertainment.
#12 Apr 20 2014 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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I moved around a lot. If I did 8 or 10 and didn't get anything I would change zones. I grinded out one of the la nocsea zones for awhile then changed zones and got one on the third fate. So maybe try that.

I'm sorry that you're so upset about it. Buy lots of venture coins :)

In reply to susanoh I treated it like a scratcher lotto ticket. Most of the time nothing but a rush when you'd see that message in the chat log lol. That was my 'entertainment'.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 5:40pm by LebargeX

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 5:40pm by LebargeX
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#13 Apr 20 2014 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
In reply to susanoh I treated it like a scratcher lotto ticket. Most of the time nothing but a rush when you'd see that message in the chat log lol. That was my 'entertainment'.


Actually I agree with you on that. That's one of the things I do like about RNG, the feeling when you get it can be a lot more emotional than if you're just doing a mundane "do 100 of this" type of grind. (Edit: I do want to point out though, that this same feeling can be achieved in any RNG based grind, whether it's the most enjoyable event in the game or the most mundane)

Not even saying some people don't get enjoyment out of FATEs in themselves. There may be some that do, and those people can chime in on why they enjoy them so much. I'm not one of them (although I'm not necessarily against grinds either), but if some people love doing FATEs and want to talk about it, more power to them.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 8:53pm by Susanoh
#14 Apr 20 2014 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
You've peaked my curiosity.

For what reason do you need this animus weapon ASAP? I want to know where this huge gear wall is that requires them so I can try it. I too wish I didn't have to do mindless, repetitive tasks in a MMO. You know? Like idling around town waiting for a dungeon queue to pop so I can do a dungeon with a bunch of deaf mutes for the 827th time this month with zero chance of dying because the dungeon was designed to be idiot-proof. Or idling around town some more when there isn't any content left to do because they neglected to put a grind into the game.

Or is this just another thread with bitching from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?


Edited, Apr 20th 2014 10:06am by HitomeOfBismarck


Nice assumption there.

This thread is about how RNG-based grindy mechanics are great when you're a no-life teenager/college student living at home with your parents, and how if you *aren't* one of those (i.e. has kids, works outside the home, is married) it's a bitch to have to rely on random chance for progress.

Some people had their Atma weapons in under 10 hours after the patch dropped. Others have grinded for 30+ hours without receiving a single Atma drop. If we're going to have about "entitlement" then the guy who has worked for 30+ hours has definitely put more effort into it than the <10 hours guy. But that doesn't matter, because it's random. There's nothing we can do to control it. I have found five Atma since patch. A friend of mine who has been trying for about as long as I have (around 37 hours total, dedicated to FATEing), has received one. Meanwhile, another friend of mine who started (as in, had done no FATE's outside of beast dailies) Monday of last week now has 7. RNG gods amirite?

Which has nothing to do with "entitlement" and everything to do with aspects outside of player control. Removing control from the player is one of the worst decisions you can make as a game developer. The whole point of the game is to give the player control of something out of the ordinary. Thus far, SE has done a great job of giving players alternate means of acquiring progression. Not getting lucky in Coil, or can't run it for whatever reason? Well, you can put myth tomes towards comparable gear. Maybe it's not BiS, but you're not dependent on RNG to progress your character.

With Atma, you are. And for people who can't make time for static EX and BC groups, much less dedicate the time to learning and executing the fights, you want to have something attainable that's within the control of the player, not random chance. It doesn't have to be the most powerful thing in the game, it just has to be something where it feels like meaningful work is being made towards the goal.
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#15 Apr 20 2014 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a kind of "now" person for this sort of thing, I want the glowing blazing mighty lion fists of destruction for Monk now, right now!.

However between them and me stood/stand...

12 Atmas
13500 Mythology
900 mobs
30 dungeon runs
30 fates hunts
30+ leves

It is quite a lot, I was hoping to finish the animus by the 3rd week after the path, sadly it didn't happen, but now on my 6th book and quite close to the goal, I realize that it was really intended to be a marathon not a race, a way to put all those extra Mythology tomes that you will farm anyway to some use and complete the weapon in 2 or 3 months at a reasonable peace, unfortunately it was unreasonable to think that your average MMORPG player would look at it that way.

In my opinion, the Zodiac weapon quest line is a good example of a good design in paper that translates in an awful implementation once it's actually live.
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#16 Apr 20 2014 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Or is this just another thread with bitching from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?


Another person that doesn't get it, what a surprise.

Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based, at least makes some attempt to be level-appropriate (why are we blasting away at all these level 10 fates with our level 50, ilvl 90~ characters?) and isn't completely goddamn boring (because games should be, y'know, fun?).

Aside from the luck involved in getting a semi-competent group for HM primals, nothing in the relic quests up to this point was a huge, luck-based grind.
#17 Apr 20 2014 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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Or is this just another thread with bitching from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?


Another person that doesn't get it, what a surprise.

Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based,.


Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based", so the ironic thing is, those who still bitch about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?

Quote:
Aside from the luck involved in getting a semi-competent group for HM primals, nothing in the relic quests up to this point was a huge, luck-based grind.


Exactly, Relics were HANDED OUT unless you utterly failed at Hard Mode primals or even Chimera/Hydra. Why on earth would people think the next step would have been the exact same handouts? People (including those who had every relic) wanted the next step to feel more like an actual progression rather than extension to your job quest, however no one asked for FATE grinding, but the portion after FATE grinding is exactly what people wanted unless, of course, they were indeed asking for handouts.

:)

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 10:30pm by Theonehio
#18 Apr 21 2014 at 12:48 AM Rating: Default
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Theonehio wrote:


Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based", so the ironic thing is, those who still bitch about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?



I don't care if it's luck based, I don't care if it takes a year to get it. I just want something more than grinding mind numbing level 10 FATEs. Grinding level 50 content would ATMA farming less painful.
#19 Apr 21 2014 at 1:04 AM Rating: Default
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Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based",


Too bad animus progression is completely meaningless to anyone who doesn't get past the atma step.

It's kinda like all the "oh, you can just spam Leviathan EX / coil v2 instead!" blabbering is completely meaningless to the people still stuck on Titan EX and coil v1.

Quote:
so the ironic thing is, those who still bitch about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?


Tbh the only people I really see bitching about the books are doing so for... the FATE sections.

Apparently, standing around waiting for a specific FATE that often takes hours to spawn is boring as hell. Who would have thought.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 3:17am by Fynlar
#20 Apr 21 2014 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Apparently, standing around waiting for a specific FATE that often takes hours to spawn is boring as hell. Who would have thought.
To be fair people waiting for hours for a specific FATE are Google impaired, after my first 45 minutes waiting for the infamous "Giant Seps", I decided to google it and found that the number of FATE's per area are caped and you have to clear the current FATE's to let new ones pop, otherwise you are waiting for the timers to expire.

Afterwards I just started clearing and... bingo! 30 minutes later I was already looking for the next one.

Edit: typo

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 8:04am by kenage
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#21 Apr 21 2014 at 2:21 AM Rating: Default
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To be fair people waiting for hours for a specific FATE are Google impaired, after my first 45 minutes waiting for the infamous "Giant Seps", I decided to google it and found that the number of FATE's per area are caped and you have to clear the current FATE's to let new ones pop, otherwise you are waiting for the timers to expire.


So... how exactly does this information help anyone? You still have to wait. You can't exactly run around and help clear out the current FATEs either, or else the people who are waiting for the specific one needed will zerg it and kill it before you can get back. You also still have no exact indication of when it'll pop again.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 4:21am by Fynlar
#22 Apr 21 2014 at 2:42 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based, at least makes some attempt to be level-appropriate (why are we blasting away at all these level 10 fates with our level 50, ilvl 90~ characters?) and isn't completely goddamn boring (because games should be, y'know, fun?).

This so much.

Most people have no problem with a large time commitment. The biggest problem most people have is the fact that grinding low level FATEs on high level jobs for a very low drop rate item is one of the most annoying and boring things imaginable. It's not entitlement to expect a game to be fun, not boring. At least let me do those FATEs on a lower level job for exp, or guarantee me a drop if I hit X number of FATEs in an area and still don't have it, or something. Something, ANYTHING, to make it feel like I'm not totally wasting my time for nothing.
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#23 Apr 21 2014 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
It's not entitlement to expect a game to be fun, not boring.


Why yes it is when you are given the choice to do many things for similar (or better!) results and you choose to spend your time hunting atmas.

The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.

*Quote marks used due to the complete subjectivity of the words "fun" and "boring".
#24 Apr 21 2014 at 5:30 AM Rating: Good
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The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because of something like this?

There's quite a few people who don't like the system, that I've been hearing. I, myself, don't think it is so bad but I do agree it could use a few tweaks to improve the QoL a bit (such as allowing you to use other classes, that's the big #1 one for me).
#25 Apr 21 2014 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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kenage wrote:
I'm a kind of "now" person for this sort of thing, I want the glowing blazing mighty lion fists of destruction for Monk now, right now!.

However between them and me stood/stand...

12 Atmas
13500 Mythology
900 mobs
30 dungeon runs
30 fates hunts
30+ leves

It is quite a lot, I was hoping to finish the animus by the 3rd week after the path, sadly it didn't happen, but now on my 6th book and quite close to the goal, I realize that it was really intended to be a marathon not a race, a way to put all those extra Mythology tomes that you will farm anyway to some use and complete the weapon in 2 or 3 months at a reasonable peace, unfortunately it was unreasonable to think that your average MMORPG player would look at it that way.

In my opinion, the Zodiac weapon quest line is a good example of a good design in paper that translates in an awful implementation once it's actually live.


Wow... It looks different put all out on paper, never really realized I did all that! I guess that's why I've been taking a break from playing this week. LOL But all in all, booo to the man that made this thread. I use to brag that these threads hadn't popped up on Zam yet... But here we are...

You know they say that only a small percentage of the population actually voice their concerns on forums, while the rest of the Atma farming people are to busy farming atma, and playing the game to post on the threads complaining about it. I guess my question to the OP is.... What did you hope to achieve by making this thread?

Now don't get me wrong, I do agree that maybe there should have been some other way of getting the 12 Atma's besides doing old low level Fate's, but Fate's are kinda like our today's NM's. And since there is no NM's to camp, we must camp the Fate's. They could have made it drop from particular fates, or boss fates only, then instead of doing the sheer amount we do now for them to drop, you could be left with doing these particular ones that don't pop much, having the whole server camped out at particular fates downing them in mere seconds. Then you might complain about how its to hard to get silver or gold. Or to long waiting on fate's and how you wish you could get the atma's from any fate.

I think it really reflects on how fast people want things done, and how entitled people are to their opinions in this new internet based world. I remember I told my cousin, lets go back and look at old forums and see how many people use to get mad at some of the stuff that was required in FFXI... We searched for two hours, going far back as to 2002 looking for people's thoughts on FFXI before the first expansion, decoding Japanese text, and looking at generally how people felt about doing certain things like the Dynamis grind to get their relics. And you know what... they were very hard to find.

No one got mad about farming Dynamis over and over and over, and said their AF drop rate sucks, and all this about this needs to be fixed, and that needs to be changed. The old MMO'ers of old were fierce, and they went out and tried to accomplish these things because the game asked them to. They didn't huddle around forums hoping that the game developers would hear their cries, and change the process.

It's kinda how media changed games. Back in the day we didn't wait to see review scores before we went out to buy a game. You were just in the store, and looked at the back of the box, and was like hmmm this looks good, and you bought it. You fell off the side of that cliff 20 times, and thought to yourself this stage is hard as hell, but you didn't hit internet forums saying the game was broken, and that cliff needed to be looked into. Times have changed and so have people, and I can only hope that Yoshi P doesn't listen to every moan about these type of things. Like someone else said I welcome that he gave us 3 different paths to get good, great, and better weapons. All these things take time, it's kinda sucky, but you will feel good once you've accomplished it... I guarantee it!! I did....

And believe me, the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. I know people who's fought Leviathan extreme 50+ times and haven't seen the mirror drop, some people have fought him 30 times and haven't seen their weapon drop. Not to mention that the Weathered weapon takes a drop from turn 8, and about 4 weeks of Soldiery to get it, and lets not even talk about beating turn 9 in hopes your weapon will drop. You'll need that bad boy on farm status. MMORPG's take time... Matter fact... They take perseverance, determination, skill, and patience, sprinkled with luck. You need luck to see the drop, you need luck to win the lot... Patience my friend, wax on, wax off!!!



Edited, Apr 21st 2014 8:12am by SirLuciousLeftfoot
#26 Apr 21 2014 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:
The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because of something like this?

There's quite a few people who don't like the system, that I've been hearing. I, myself, don't think it is so bad but I do agree it could use a few tweaks to improve the QoL a bit (such as allowing you to use other classes, that's the big #1 one for me).


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because they don't like it?

Um... Yes. I agree that a few QoL improvements would be nice but let's not pretend many of these people would leave it at that.

Then again, this game is full of people who clearly hate the game and themselves but still play. So maybe that's not such a good advice after all.

Quote:
And believe me, the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. I know people who's fought Leviathan extreme 50+ times and haven't seen the mirror drop, some people have fought him 30 times and haven't seen their weapon drop. Not to mention that the Weathered weapon takes a drop from turn 8, and about 4 weeks of Soldiery to get it, and lets not even talk about beating turn 9 in hopes your weapon will drop. You'll need that bad boy on farm status. MMORPG's take time... Matter fact... They take perseverance, determination, skill, and patience, sprinkled with luck. You need luck to see the drop, you need luck to win the lot... Patience my friend, wax on, wax off!!!


The difference with the content you're talking about is that you don't have to do low level content to accomplish these goals. Clearly this content is a great alternative to people who don't like playing low level content but they still choose to play the low level content and then bitch about it. What a complete nonsense.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 12:22pm by Hyanmen
#27 Apr 21 2014 at 7:04 AM Rating: Default
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Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:
The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because of something like this?

There's quite a few people who don't like the system, that I've been hearing. I, myself, don't think it is so bad but I do agree it could use a few tweaks to improve the QoL a bit (such as allowing you to use other classes, that's the big #1 one for me).


Yes.

For example I @#%^ing despise FATEs because even PSO2 does them better, thus I never touched them until I HAD to, otherwise I chose to skip them as it was my choice to deal with fate grinding or dungeon/dailies. It kind of makes sense not to use other classes as you're trying to power up the Animus you started the quest on, however, you can indeed use any Zenith'd class and obtain it.

Now, if you dislike the Animus, skip it, don't do it, don't sit there and expect SE to pander to your likes/dislikes and make an actual process that lasts longer than 4 hours to be nerfed down to a 30 minute - 4 hour process like the Relic quest was and people were right when they said you usually have a group of people huddle around crying to get stuff nerfed so they can spend as little time as possible obtaining what they want. For as much as you say there being quite a few people...

I keep tabs on the official forums, it's usually the same people who bitch about everything and typically the same people who wants things handed to them. Whether you agree or disagree or try to spin it in whatever fashion you want, people really are asking for things to be handed to them. Do you know how quick the portion is after Atmas?

There are so many Animus weapons now I don't see the "huge dislike" for this progression, if you personally dislike it, don't do it. I'm not even saying you personally, I'm saying the general "you". It's that simple. I disliked the way coil progression was so I didn't really bother with it beyond getting my clear achievements, when it became farmable, then I dealt with it. See how easy it is to skip what you don't care for? People use 'QoL' as an excuse to: "Hand this to me!" Btw, it's also the same people who bitch about nothing to do when you can clear patch content within a week since there's so little of it. The only people with "tons of content" to do now either just joined FFXIV, have almost no time to play it or purposefully stretch out content to the point they're 3 patches behind, maybe even 4-7 if you count 1.x.

2.2 is the FIRST patch since 2.0 that lasted longer than a week to full clear it, and this is ignoring Second Coil. People should be happy about that. I said it before and I'll say it again, this change shows exactly which generation of MMO gamers are playing this, as cool as it makes someone to mock "old school gamers" or "archaic design", it doesn't help you progress any further.


Oh, btw, in 2 days the Zodiak quest line continues unless Yoshi P lied, so if you really didn't want to bother with it, pray that they nerf down the first 2 steps (so people stop complaining), otherwise those who finished it will be continuing with the questline while the other OPTIONS you have are farming Tidal weapons, Allagan weapons and High allagan Weapons...HAW btw, are BiS and even AW are BiS for some if the high ones are unobtainable to you.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 6:25am by Theonehio
#28 Apr 21 2014 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based",


Too bad animus progression is completely meaningless to anyone who doesn't get past the atma step.

It's kinda like all the "oh, you can just spam Leviathan EX / coil v2 instead!" blabbering is completely meaningless to the people still stuck on Titan EX and coil v1.

Quote:
so the ironic thing is, those who still bitch about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?


Tbh the only people I really see bitching about the books are doing so for... the FATE sections.

Apparently, standing around waiting for a specific FATE that often takes hours to spawn is boring as hell. Who would have thought.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 3:17am by Fynlar


Boring content is boring.

Very boring.

Very very boring and I'm bored of talking about it. I can't believe anyone at all would defend this nonsense. It's a horrible game mechanic and did I mention boring?

Players who defend boring content should expect more of the same. Now is the time to decide if you want to be spamming 1000's of FATEs with each new patch, or if you want to tell Yoshi his decision to make FATES part of the relic upgrade process is a huge mistake and should be fixed ASAP.

If you like spamming 1000's of FATES then you are simply not the same kind of player as I am. I expect battles with challenging monsters and strategy at level 50+. I expect weapon upgrades to come from completing something with meaning, something that requires the gear I've collected and the skill to use it.

BTW, if you got your 12 ATMA with less than 1000 FATES then you really shouldn't get to have a single opinion on the system whatsoever. Just because it was only partially carppy system for you personally deosn't mean it doesn't ABSOLUTELY SUCK BALLS for others.

You think moving around has increased your drop rate? YOU ARE WRONG. It doesn't help for piss. It helped you, because RANDOM. Didn't help others. Not to mention it's BORING AS HELL.

Do I sound mad? I am. Because this nonsense is horse sh*t and still players are defending it.


#29 Apr 21 2014 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Gnu wrote:
Boring content is boring.

Very boring.

Very very boring and I'm bored of talking about it. I can't believe anyone at all would defend this nonsense. It's a horrible game mechanic and did I mention boring?

Players who defend boring content should expect more of the same. Now is the time to decide if you want to be spamming 1000's of FATEs with each new patch, or if you want to tell Yoshi his decision to make FATES part of the relic upgrade process is a huge mistake and should be fixed ASAP.

If you like spamming 1000's of FATES then you are simply not the same kind of player as I am. I expect battles with challenging monsters and strategy at level 50+. I expect weapon upgrades to come from completing something with meaning, something that requires the gear I've collected and the skill to use it.

BTW, if you got your 12 ATMA with less than 1000 FATES then you really shouldn't get to have a single opinion on the system whatsoever. Just because it was only partially carppy system for you personally deosn't mean it doesn't ABSOLUTELY SUCK BALLS for others.

You think moving around has increased your drop rate? YOU ARE WRONG. It doesn't help for piss. It helped you, because RANDOM. Didn't help others. Not to mention it's BORING AS HELL.

Do I sound mad? I am. Because this nonsense is horse sh*t and still players are defending it.


The fact that you are trying to feed your opinion and feelings down our throats is incredibly insulting. Nobody out there is denying that your opinion about the Atma quest being boring is "wrong" or "flawed". Yet you are trying to pass that opinion as an objective fact and simultaneously disregarding all the people that do not feel or think this way. That is incredibly rude and completely wrong and flawed type of thinking.

Many people in this thread and other threads have already explicitly mentioned that the Zodiac questline is one progression path out of many progression paths to acquire gear of similar or even worse value. You completely disregard this fact however and act like SE somehow doesn't offer you the possibility to grind the challenging high-end content for a similar (or better) outcome. They do offer you that option so go and do it instead of bitching that one out of four progression paths does not cater to your particular interests. With that said it is clear that SE still cares more about "your type of player" since the majority of progression paths for the best weapons actually require us to beat the current high-end contents.

If Atma path was the only way to get gear of similar or better value then there would definitely be a problem in the system and you would have an actual argument. But with the way it is now? Entitlement. Pure and distilled.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 2:41pm by Hyanmen
#30 Apr 21 2014 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
@Hitome, TheOnehio
The point is not that it takes long, the point is that two-shotting squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours as a @LV 50 hero of the realm is insulting; it was already insulting at LV 3, btw.
This is BS; and you just have to see it?
No matter how you twist it, this "dedication wall" is so stupidly implemented, I wonder whether Yoshi can still sit straight after pulling that one out of his rear.
But I guess you two can only see the glorious wall, and not how ugly it is?

P.S.: I did over 200 fates. 1 Atma. Oh glorious fun.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 8:23pm by Rinsui


No: we just have insight about the future of the game because we experienced the end of 2.1.

I remember twiddling my thumbs at the end of the 2.1 patch because we had nothing to do. These atma weapons fill in that slot.

I don't find doing dungeons for leveling fun either, Rinsui, but will not bitch to you about it. I don't find idling around town, waiting for a queue to pop fun either. I don't find doing Satasha/Tam Tara/Copperbell for the 437th time to be fun either.

Guess what I do? Avoid all of those situations. I play the game for fun. If something makes me miserable, I stop.

If these weapons somehow enabled players to clear endgame content and were the make or break difference between killing it or not, then we'd have something to discuss.

As it stands, none of that is necessary. T9 was downed with people that didn't have an animus. That is why I see no gear wall and why these complaints are pointless.

The weapon quest isn't going anywhere. No need to rush through it. Killing squirrels may not be fun but at least you are not being left out of the loop when it comes to endgame weapons like you were last time (don't remember the extreme primal weekly quest, do you?). It's also clear they wanted to revive FATEs since most have been dead since 2.1.

Quor wrote:
This thread is about how RNG-based grindy mechanics are great when you're a no-life teenager/college student living at home with your parents, and how if you *aren't* one of those (i.e. has kids, works outside the home, is married) it's a bitch to have to rely on random chance for progress.


Yes because clearly those of us who grind have no life, are college students, or live with our parents.

Didn't you say something early about this?

Quor wrote:
Nice assumption there.


Ah right: there it is.

I've been casually working on my weapon since it was released. I may have put 15~20 hours into the whole thing. That's less than an hour a day from 2.2 to now.

What's more funny is that you think the 'no life' content is the atma/animus crap. No: the 'no life' stuff (lol) is actually the T7 and T8 weapon and weapon upgrade plus the high allagan weapon. Wouldn't really consider Levi Ex 'no life' content.

What's even more hilarious is that you don't realize that this is SE's attempt to include casual players in the loop. No, you do not deserve a weapon on par with a raid weapon for killing level 3 crap over and over. Instead of the situation in 2.1 where casual players were completely screwed when it came to obtaining high end weapons, they actually give you a chance at a weapon on par with a non-upgraded drop from turn 7 and an upgraded weapon from an extreme primal.

Or we could just go back to requiring Titan Ex to obtain something like this.

Quor wrote:
Some people had their Atma weapons in under 10 hours after the patch dropped. Others have grinded for 30+ hours without receiving a single Atma drop. If we're going to have about "entitlement" then the guy who has worked for 30+ hours has definitely put more effort into it than the <10 hours guy. But that doesn't matter, because it's random. There's nothing we can do to control it. I have found five Atma since patch. A friend of mine who has been trying for about as long as I have (around 37 hours total, dedicated to FATEing), has received one. Meanwhile, another friend of mine who started (as in, had done no FATE's outside of beast dailies) Monday of last week now has 7. RNG gods amirite?

Which has nothing to do with "entitlement" and everything to do with aspects outside of player control. Removing control from the player is one of the worst decisions you can make as a game developer. The whole point of the game is to give the player control of something out of the ordinary. Thus far, SE has done a great job of giving players alternate means of acquiring progression. Not getting lucky in Coil, or can't run it for whatever reason? Well, you can put myth tomes towards comparable gear. Maybe it's not BiS, but you're not dependent on RNG to progress your character.


Shall I define RNG for you?

Do you bitch when you don't get your loot from coil due to RNG? Do you curse your luck when you get Copperbell for the 87th time because RNG stuck you in that dungeon? Did you bitch about raid gear drops in WoW too?

The whole point of this game is design it the way Yoshi P' deems fit. Everything thus far has been obtainable up front with no RNG attached to it besides coil drops. Want to complain about RNG? Why weren't you complaining about coil RNG prior to 2.2? Know what it's like to go 25 weeks without seeing a piece of gear you want?

Every single MMO to date has had RNG elements attached to it. Why then is it such a big deal when these elements appear in 14? In fact, RNG elements that can be solo'd are a good thing. When we near 2.3, there should be substantially less complaining over lack of content like there was at the end 2.2.

Do you know why? Because 2.2 did not have any grindy elements.

Quor wrote:
With Atma, you are. And for people who can't make time for static EX and BC groups, much less dedicate the time to learning and executing the fights, you want to have something attainable that's within the control of the player, not random chance. It doesn't have to be the most powerful thing in the game, it just has to be something where it feels like meaningful work is being made towards the goal.


You know what soldiery is, right? It pretty much nullifies your argument.

Like I said: animus weapons are not required for progression. If you don't put in the time to grind them, who cares? I'm on my first book only. Getting my animus will do nothing for me except make my staff look purple and demonic.

Even those who play casually end up with their atma weapon (if not their animus). It's more than obtainable and you have plenty of time to do it in.

Fynlar wrote:
Another person that doesn't get it, what a surprise.


Couldn't agree more. No surprise that you are one of them.

Fynlar wrote:
Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based, at least makes some attempt to be level-appropriate (why are we blasting away at all these level 10 fates with our level 50, ilvl 90~ characters?) and isn't completely goddamn boring (because games should be, y'know, fun?).

Aside from the luck involved in getting a semi-competent group for HM primals, nothing in the relic quests up to this point was a huge, luck-based grind.


Your idea of boring is, gasp, subjective.

Apply to SE's development team. Show them your (clearly) superior designs. I'm sure they'll snatch you up and all this business with atma/animus weapons will be cleared up within days.

Perhaps it's you who doesn't get it. Funny because you already highlighted the reason. Nothing in this game outside of coil so far has been based on RNG. Result? Content dries up quickly and people become unhappy because there's nothing to do.

Could have sworn the crowd that was telling those of us who were dissatisfied with the lack of content a few weeks ago that this isn't the case because you play casually and have plenty of stuff to do. Nothing has changed. You can play casually and still end up with something very powerful in the end. Powerful enough to be on par with many endgame weapons.

You can't clear Titan Ex or Levi Ex? No problem: here's another path to obtain a weapon that is as powerful as the weapon Levi Ex drops. But you expect to be able to obtain this weapon (that is almost equivalent to a raid-type boss drop) in an easy fashion.

So basically what you want is raid-level loot without having to do the raid itself. You also think that grinding for this raid-level loot is a terrible thing when learning the raid fight that drops the raid level loot can be more difficult at times, previously admitted by you. Do you think you deserve the raid level loot despite not putting in the effort that others have to learn the fights while all you have to do is whack a level 3 bunny?

Sure: makes complete sense. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 12:14pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#31 Apr 21 2014 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I just got back into the game Friday after being away for a month... and i've already seen people use BOTS to get their Atma's in FATEs, that's how bad it gets for some people apparently. The ones that stand around the entire time and use one spell on a monster and then walk (not even chocobo) away in between FATEs with a set path, and always the same path, and repeat that process for days.

I spend my entire sunday grinding Atma's from 7:20 AM till about 1 AM on monday night, something close to 18 hours of doing nothing but FATEs. I capped out my seals for Ventures, that's good. I didnt get a single Atma, that's bad. That's very VERY bad. I cant imagine how it would be if i were to spend the entire month grinding with nothing to show for it. Heck, i'd want to result to botting too at that point...

Atma system is terrible. I can imagine SE wants people doing FATEs in the lower area's so the game doesnt seem deserted for the new Playstation 4 players, but yeah... There should have been another way to do this.
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#32 Apr 21 2014 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
[Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based...

Luck based gameplay (i.e. you have to be lucky to win) is bad. Luck based rewards, on the other hand, adds some excitement and is probably good for a game.
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#33 Apr 21 2014 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
The real issue most people dont seem to get is.....the future. There's nothing hard about grinding for hours to get atma drops, taxing on the morale yes, but actual difficulty....absent. It's honestly just a massive time sink for most people. Back to the "future" (like wut i dead thar?!) that I was talking about. Alternative weapons are great, but we all know the Animus weapons will be upgraded further down the line. If we don't get it accomplished before then, we will still be lagging behind once the next upgrade is available. That is my main issue with Atma. I've done all the different grinds in older/other MMOs. I've never minded grinding, its just when its RNG GRINDING, with MONOTONOUS content, tagging along with no end in sight. Some people have Animus while many others have done much more grinding and still dont have 12 atma to show for it.

Another issue I see, what if I decided (or even needed) to change mains after I turned in all 12 atma and upgraded my zenith? Does that mean another massive grind all over again? Of course. I've never been one to ask for handouts, I'm not much of a complainer either but do when something truly bothers me. I've always had a good "work ethic" and love a good challenge or the occasional grind, but this one has to be the most frustrating and depressing. I could go on and on and on, but it's only going to fall on deaf ears much like the rest of this will.
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#34 Apr 21 2014 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can't commit to the schedule required to be in a static. So, I'm still stuck on Titan EX and turn 5, hence that upgrade path is closed to me. You wanna talk boring? Spend some time queueing up in DF or joining PF runs and watch people die the same way over and over. And guess what, even if you COULD clear the most difficult content in the game, you'd still be on here complaining about the drop rate... Hitome said they'd been lucky and got 4 mirrors in 70 runs. And what do you get for clearing Levi besides the weapon? A few tomes?

Now let's imagine the atma/animus system wasn't in place? I can get the weathered weapon, sure. But that's it. I can't upgrade it. I can't even get the wave or allagan/high allagan weapons.

So, where's the trade off? If you can't clear the most difficult content in the game, the trade off is that you have to spent lots of time doing little menial taks.

Am I super happy about grinding fates all the live-long day? No. Am I glad I didn't get excluded from getting good stuff? Yes.
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#35 Apr 21 2014 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Seraphknight777 wrote:
The real issue most people dont seem to get is.....the future. There's nothing hard about grinding for hours to get atma drops, taxing on the morale yes, but actual difficulty....absent. It's honestly just a massive time sink for most people. Back to the "future" (like wut i dead thar?!) that I was talking about. Alternative weapons are great, but we all know the Animus weapons will be upgraded further down the line. If we don't get it accomplished before then, we will still be lagging behind once the next upgrade is available. That is my main issue with Atma. I've done all the different grinds in older/other MMOs. I've never minded grinding, its just when its RNG GRINDING, with MONOTONOUS content, tagging along with no end in sight. Some people have Animus while many others have done much more grinding and still dont have 12 atma to show for it.

Another issue I see, what if I decided (or even needed) to change mains after I turned in all 12 atma and upgraded my zenith? Does that mean another massive grind all over again? Of course. I've never been one to ask for handouts, I'm not much of a complainer either but do when something truly bothers me. I've always had a good "work ethic" and love a good challenge or the occasional grind, but this one has to be the most frustrating and depressing. I could go on and on and on, but it's only going to fall on deaf ears much like the rest of this will.


Most likely what will happen is that atma rates will be increased when the next set of upgrades comes along (if not sooner).

Lagging how, exactly? Because you can't obtain an animus weapon that, realistically, will take you around a month or two to obtain if you are extremely casual?

Remember: major patches occur every 3 months about. So if you've completed it by the 2nd month, I fail to see how you are going to be lagging behind.

Nobody has really answered the question. Why do you require this animus weapon so soon? If you play casually, then you aren't really raiding. The only people who would really have a right to complain about this are those progressing through the 2nd turn right now because they might need the extra boost in damage the animus weapon gives and have not received a Levi mirror yet.

Go ahead: answer me this time.

LebargeX wrote:
I can't commit to the schedule required to be in a static. So, I'm still stuck on Titan EX and turn 5, hence that upgrade path is closed to me. You wanna talk boring? Spend some time queueing up in DF or joining PF runs and watch people die the same way over and over. And guess what, even if you COULD clear the most difficult content in the game, you'd still be on here complaining about the drop rate... Hitome said they'd been lucky and got 4 mirrors in 70 runs. And what do you get for clearing Levi besides the weapon? A few tomes?

Now let's imagine the atma/animus system wasn't in place? I can get the weathered weapon, sure. But that's it. I can't upgrade it. I can't even get the wave or allagan/high allagan weapons.

So, where's the trade off? If you can't clear the most difficult content in the game, the trade off is that you have to spent lots of time doing little menial taks.

Am I super happy about grinding fates all the live-long day? No. Am I glad I didn't get excluded from getting good stuff? Yes.


Bingo. And yes: Levi gives crap myth and soldiery and usually requires 8+ minutes to complete (assuming no wipes). Oh did I mention? Levi also requires a group to do. Most PF groups fail so this means you either have to get lucky and get FC members to do it with you or you're up the creek. Last time I checked, atma didn't require a group and the books only require small groups and/or can be done with DF.

Where is Seriha when you need him? Pretty sure this is his area of expertise.

Do you all want to go back to the system where you have to clear three extreme primals (w/o an echo buff) to obtain a weapon on par with what people who clear T5 have?

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 11:49am by HitomeOfBismarck
#36 Apr 21 2014 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
There's a clear difference between low level fates and EX primals/coil though. I'm not saying attach it to the hardest things in the game, but I feel it shouldn't be attached to the easiest and most boring content in the game either. Something I'd like to see come back is solo story/class/job duties/instances (if anyone knew how hard the Warlock Fel Fire quest was in WoW when it was first released, I'd use that for difficulty measurement). Few of those , some mildly difficult group content, a mild amount of grinding, and a Boss specific to the questline (think Chimera/Hydra/Gilgamesh type of fight that was somewhat difficult).

Hitome: The post wasn't aimed towards you or any specific person. I'm really not in the mood to argue or debate as I'm just stating my opinion.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 12:03pm by Seraphknight777
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#37 Apr 21 2014 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Your idea of boring is, gasp, subjective.


So is every other one, but there is still a lot of agreement on this one. People have been complaining about *single* FATEs being required for quests since before 2.2. It was crystal clear what the reception to atma would be like.

Quote:
You can't clear Titan Ex or Levi Ex? No problem: here's another path to obtain a weapon that is as powerful as the weapon Levi Ex drops. But you expect to be able to obtain this weapon (that is almost equivalent to a raid-type boss drop) in an easy fashion.


Again, no, nobody is saying it should be "easy". Please learn to read.

Quote:
Do you think you deserve the raid level loot despite not putting in the effort that others have to learn the fights while all you have to do is whack a level 3 bunny?


That's basically what the FATE spam that you're defending is, so...

Quote:
Luck based gameplay (i.e. you have to be lucky to win) is bad. Luck based rewards, on the other hand, adds some excitement and is probably good for a game.


Excitement? Surely not when it's attached to boring, mindless, level 10-20 content that is well beneath a zenith relic owner.
#38 Apr 21 2014 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Turn 1 was challenging... until it wasn't. Now it's on autopilot. What you're looking for is a repetitive challenge, which is difficlut to provide because it's difficult to script randomness. If you already know exactly what to expect, there's not much of a challenge anymore, right?
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#39Quor, Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 10:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I assumed nothing. You took that on yourself. All I mentioned was some distinct sub-groups that often have the time necessary to dedicate to extremely grind-oriented goals.
#40 Apr 21 2014 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Seraphknight777 wrote:
There's a clear difference between low level fates and EX primals/coil though. I'm not saying attach it to the hardest things in the game, but I feel it shouldn't be attached to the easiest and most boring content in the game either. Something I'd like to see come back is solo story/class/job duties/instances (if anyone knew how hard the Warlock Fel Fire quest was in WoW when it was first released, I'd use that for difficulty measurement). Few of those , some mildly difficult group content, a mild amount of grinding, and a Boss specific to the questline (think Chimera/Hydra/Gilgamesh type of fight that was somewhat difficult).

Hitome: The post wasn't aimed towards you or any specific person. I'm really not in the mood to argue or debate as I'm just stating my opinion.


Yes, I know. I am glad you express your opinion in an objective way because I'm more likely to see your point opposed to some of the other posters in this thread.

I liked the warlock quests quite a bit and think they were a great idea...but this is kind of the purpose the books serve at the moment. Complete a few FATEs, go nuke some mobs, do a few level capped dungeons and maybe a higher level dungeon, etc. It's variety that you desire and you'll find that in the books.


Fynlar wrote:
So is every other one, but there is still a lot of agreement on this one. People have been complaining about *single* FATEs being required for quests since before 2.2. It was crystal clear what the reception to atma would be like.


And yet people still do them and seem to be enjoying them, especially after they get into the book phase.

It's crystal clear that people enjoy whining. Try doing it a little less?

Fynlar wrote:
Again, no, nobody is saying it should be "easy". Please learn to read.


No: what you said is that you shouldn't have to do mindless repetitive tasks. So you don't want to do the primal fights or the coil progression...I fail to see why you think you have any say in the matter. You want a weapon on par with the other two paths? Hope you're ready to jump through some hoops.

Looks like you're not.

Fynlar wrote:
That's basically what the FATE spam that you're defending is, so...


So learning T8 is just the same as doing low level FATEs. Will be sure to inform my FC so we can practice T9 by doing Camp Drybone FATEs. We should be prepared after 15 or so hours of that.

Guarantee you your retort will contain the following, "LOLz learning fights is simple and require no skill. I've been on the internets/playing MMOs for so many years so naturally my opinion is accurate. A level 5 FATE requires the same amount of skill. Since I can do a level 5 FATE, I can do T6-9."

Quor wrote:
I assumed nothing. You took that on yourself. All I mentioned was some distinct sub-groups that often have the time necessary to dedicate to extremely grind-oriented goals.

What you made of it reflects more on you than on me.


What I made of it was that you think it requires no life to obtain animus weapons which is not the case.

Quor wrote:
More to the point, I'm not one of the many people who have come in here throwing words such as "whiny" or "entitled" around when referring to people I disagree with. Which, again, reflects more on you than it does on the people you direct such words too.


When you come up with a better way to describe the attitudes like those expressed in this thread that boil down to 1) I want my loot and I want it within 3 weeks of the patch being released and 2) I don't want to do mindless, repetitive tasks in a MMO because I don't find them fun but also want to obtain raid-level equipment.......let me know.

Till then, I think those descriptors are pretty accurate.

Oh, and let's try to bring in the full quote next time for posterity:

Hitome wrote:
Ah right: there it is.

I've been casually working on my weapon since it was released. I may have put 15~20 hours into the whole thing. That's less than an hour a day from 2.2 to now.

What's more funny is that you think the 'no life' content is the atma/animus crap. No: the 'no life' stuff (lol) is actually the T7 and T8 weapon and weapon upgrade plus the high allagan weapon. Wouldn't really consider Levi Ex 'no life' content.

What's even more hilarious is that you don't realize that this is SE's attempt to include casual players in the loop. No, you do not deserve a weapon on par with a raid weapon for killing level 3 crap over and over. Instead of the situation in 2.1 where casual players were completely screwed when it came to obtaining high end weapons, they actually give you a chance at a weapon on par with a non-upgraded drop from turn 7 and an upgraded weapon from an extreme primal.

Or we could just go back to requiring Titan Ex to obtain something like this.


Edited, Apr 24th 2014 2:43am by HitomeOfBismarck
#41 Apr 21 2014 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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What I don't understand is - if you could Grind Higher level Fates, then that would mean they would take longer to complete (much longer than the mere seconds it would take to kill the squirrels or ladybugs etc) - so if SE changed it so you could do all High Level Fates and kept the Drop Rates the same - that would be more painful would'nt it?

Isn't the idea of Farming to do an instance / task as fast as you possibly can? If you know the drop rates in an area are really low, then you would want to be able to beat it as fast as possible - because if you know your chances of success are low - it's LESS painful than if you had to take longer doing it - and then leave with nothing.

This is personally why I liked the low level fate idea - because, even though I was always synched - it could be done in mere seconds and then on to the next one. Once you get a decent group to run with, you can do so many. Yes, after hours you can get frustrated with no drops - but it would be more painful to have to spend too much time on each one on average. It's much LESS efficient if all the fates were all high level (especially if most were the High Level Boss battles).

So, what to say here -.... be careful what you wish for ........

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 2:47pm by blitz004
#42 Apr 21 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Well put, blitz. I hadn't thought about that.

Certain high level FATEs (especially boss-level ones) were buffed quite a bit. Even before that, trying to solo the level 50 FATEs in the beastmen strongholds was damn near impossible. You usually didn't have enough DPS.

If you seek to farm atma, your goal should be to down as many FATEs as possible within the shortest duration of time to maximize your chance at an atma.

While I understand the complaints about people being limited in the skills they can use in low level FATEs, I'd rather keep it that way rather than the alternative.
#44 Apr 21 2014 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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I would like to know which low level fates you are referring to that would take too long? As well as the high level BOSS fates you are referring to that take less than a minute?. As I said, with the right FATE group you can easily burn through it in seconds - but if you are talking about just soloing this then yes it could take longer.

My point is - even if SE decided to add brand new high level FATES to this - with the same drop rate. It would still not be fun to go through for many people. Especially if the high level FATES you were doing were of the "Svara-type" fight quality (not the multiple parts mind you, but the last fight). It's fights that can go on like that for several minutes, and have you end up with nothing after it's over that can be very frustrating. If they did create harder / higher level fates - there would have to be a mass ZERG on those FATES (much like there is on Odin) to be able to get it down as quickly as possible, so people could move onto the next one. This would not really be something someone could try to solo. So, I can see that being a possibility too. But, look at how disappointed people are after they finish Odin and get nothing?.

So what do people want? Just New high level FATES so they can have all their skills or more of a challenge or both?

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 1:12pm by blitz004
#45 Apr 21 2014 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
so if SE changed it so you could do all High Level Fates and kept the Drop Rates the same - that would be more painful wouldn'nt it?


I dunno, you get ~40 GC seals out of a Lv5 FATE, and ~200 out of a Lv35 FATE.

Also, the gil. What is it for a Lv5 FATE, like 20-30gil? Lv35 FATEs can give almost 150, depending on which one.

The low level FATEs just don't reward very much whatsoever.

Also, I'd like to point out that at Lv5 you are hitting the same 2 hotkeys over and over and over again. Gladiator, for example, has Fast Blade and Riot Blade at Lv5. Woo. That's fun, isn't it? FB RB FB RB FB RB until it is finally done. At Lv35+, however, you've got things like Rage of Halone, abilities from other classes, Shield Bash, Shield Swipe, Shield Lob, all of that stuff.

Quote:
Perhaps it's you who doesn't get it. Funny because you already highlighted the reason. Nothing in this game outside of coil so far has been based on RNG. Result? Content dries up quickly and people become unhappy because there's nothing to do.


Hint: There's a way to make something take a long time WITHOUT RNG. RNG is a band-aid, RNG is that thing people fall back to when they just can't think of any better way to do it.

Instead of RNG drops, why not make each fate give X number of Points/Seals/Tomes/Coins/whatever? Maybe... instead of praying for 1 drop out of each area that has 0.00001% chance to drop, why not instead make it so that the weapon requires you to feel the sense of victory X number of times until you empower it with enough of your spirit of victory in different areas? Instead of 1 RNG drop you could instead set it to, I don't know, 100 FATEs in 4 different major areas.

That way, we KNOW we will get it after 400 FATEs. Right now, you could get it in a handful of FATEs, or if your luck absolutely stinking sucks, you could potentially do Thousands of FATEs. The reason RNG blows so much is because it can be so damn unfair. Player A might get it in 50, Player B might have to do it 500 times.

How can that possibly be fair, that Player B had to do 10x the work to get the same thing?

That's why RNG is a crap way to do Solo Progression.

Dungeon Drops in a group is different: All bosses drop SOMETHING. Everybody in the group has a chance to get this Something.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 1:10pm by Lyrailis

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 1:15pm by Lyrailis
#46 Apr 21 2014 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I see your point - and I recall many of us in my FATE group were always trying to cheer up others in the team who were not getting the drop by saying "but you still get Gil and Seals" (it didn't help, as I'm sure you have guessed :) ) - not as much on average, but it is good to stockpile it so you can at least feel you achieved something at the end of the day.

It is not fair I agree - at some point SE may make the adjustment - but it would have to be across the board to be fair to everyone (including Levi Mirror Drops etc)

For me, and many others it is difficult to get a static team together - so as another poster mentioned, Zodiac is the only alternative for now anyway. When I find myself comparing the alternatives (wiping endlessly in PUGS with really 0 to show for it) - I still prefer this method, until something else opens up.



Edited, Apr 21st 2014 1:32pm by blitz004
#48 Apr 21 2014 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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FFXI says hi ;)
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#49 Apr 21 2014 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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FeroXs wrote:
FFXI says hi ;)


I can force Atma drops in XI, though.
#50 Apr 21 2014 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
FeroXs wrote:
FFXI says hi ;)


I can force Atma drops in XI, though.


Yeah, but you also forget in FFXI, to get your relic weapon you cleared old content over, and over. To get your Mythic weapon you had to do Nyzul isle over and over, and to do your Empy weapons like the Almace you had to.... Wait for it....

Go kill this level 8 NM 3 times, that pops once every 1 hour... if you kill the proper place holders...

Go kill this level 15 NM's 3 times, that pops once every 1 hour... if you kill the proper place holders...

Go kill this level 30 NM's 3 times, that pops once every 1 hour... if you kill the proper place holders...

Go kill this NM 4 times, that pops once every 1 and a half hours.... if you kill the proper place holdlers...

Go kill another NM 4 times, that pops once every 1 and a half hours... if you kill the proper place holders...

Go kill another NM's 4 times, that pops once every 1 and a half hours... if you kill the proper place holders...

Go kill this NM's 8 times, in 4 different zones that pops in one zone 1 hour.... if you find the proper place he is by kneeling down on the ground if someone in the zone hadn't just killed him previously... Who knows...

And I just stopped there, didn't mention the zone bosses you had to kill at least 25-50 times, and just for the chance to kill him, you had to kill 3 other NM's in the area and hope they dropped that said atma with a proc that was available to you, just to be able to pop the man you have to fight 25 times, once.

Not to mention if some other player ran through and killed your guy before you got him, or killed him without you seeing him pop, you had to wait another hour, not even knowing which part of the hour you were in because you didn't have time of death... Way more brutal than killing Fates, lol.... Did people complain? Not much.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 4:00pm by SirLuciousLeftfoot
#51 Apr 21 2014 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Atma in XI also was a key item that granted bonuses, not an upgrade item.

Yeah, being able to force it was awesome, but even then the random number generator could screw you over if you were short a job. When working on Dharp, my farming team for the pop item KIs (same requirements as atma KIs) consisted of a WAR, a BLM, a BRD, WHM/RDM, a BLU, and a THF. Sometimes a second WHM if I bothered logging in my extra account. Without a NIN or SAM, there was always a 15%-ish chance the required weapon skill would be one we couldn't do. That was, essentially, a wasted NM.
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