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#1 Apr 20 2014 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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...is the stupidest boring 1995 roadblock **** Yoshi ever managed to pull out of his ***.
We`re right back to 2010, where people wasting away their youth pressing the same two
buttons while running around naked to receive maximum healing exp were considered
the realm`s finest warriors. Only that we now are warriors of light that run around the
realm reborn to two-shot squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours. Because, like, one
of those squirrels will have an atma stuffed right inside its bowels. Like, because that`s
what true warriors of light do.

There, I said it.
#2 Apr 20 2014 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I don't disagree.

I'm all for long term goals, but maybe set an upper end cap, say...250 FATE's complete in an area also yields the Atma, OR the 1% drop rate it currently is. That would be nicer.
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#3 Apr 20 2014 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Agreed. I don't mind having to put in the time. I just wish that time could be spent doing something less mind numbingly boring than grinding low level FATEs on max level jobs.
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#4 Apr 20 2014 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really get the hate. Zodiac weapon quest is only a single progression path in a game with multiple progression paths.

Believe it or not, this kind of progression style has its niche and SE is not stepping on anyone's toes by offering this progression path as long as alternatives exist. ****, the weapons are fairly weak too in comparison to the alternatives.

This kind of "if I don't like it, it shouldn't exist!" mentality in the community is seriously a let down.
#5 Apr 20 2014 at 7:39 AM Rating: Default
Yep. This is 14 players and modern MMO players. "This is too hard!" "I want the easy route!" "I don't want to play this game for years, I want to get the best stuff without working all the damned time for it" (and say the same thing a month or so after each new patch.)

Why not just start people out at LV50.. with LV50 gear, and let's all go from there.

Anyway who cares. I don't play this game anymore.
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#6 Apr 20 2014 at 7:40 AM Rating: Default
Yep. This is 14 players and modern MMO players. "This is too hard!" "I want the easy route!" "I don't want to play this game for years, I want to get the best stuff without working all the damned time for it" (and say the same thing a month or so after each new patch.)

Why not just start people out at LV50.. with LV50 gear, and let's all go from there.

Anyway who cares. I don't play this game anymore.
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#7 Apr 20 2014 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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You've piqued my curiosity.

For what reason do you need this animus weapon ASAP? I want to know where this huge gear wall is that requires them so I can try it. I too wish I didn't have to do mindless, repetitive tasks in a MMO. You know? Like idling around town waiting for a dungeon queue to pop so I can do a dungeon with a bunch of deaf mutes for the 827th time this month with zero chance of dying because the dungeon was designed to be idiot-proof. Or idling around town some more when there isn't any content left to do because they neglected to put a grind into the game.

Or is this just another thread with ******** from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?

Edited, May 8th 2014 4:20am by HitomeOfBismarck
#8 Apr 20 2014 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
...is the stupidest boring 1995 roadblock sh*t Yoshi ever managed to pull out of his ***.
We`re right back to 2010, where people wasting away their youth pressing the same two
buttons while running around naked to receive maximum healing exp were considered
the realm`s finest warriors. Only that we now are warriors of light that run around the
realm reborn to two-shot squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours. Because, like, one
of those squirrels will have an atma stuffed right inside its bowels. Like, because that`s
what true warriors of light do.

There, I said it.


Let's see..in 1995 I wasn't even playing MMOs as no MUDs that I did play I recall never even had 'Atmas' let alone 'farming' and were just glorified RP sessions. In 2010 WoW and variant clones were running rampant all of which had that "pressing same two buttons" type of system you speak of, which exists today, don't kid yourself, you'll always be hitting the same "few buttons over and over and over." So basically, what you said hasn't changed at all in the MMO universe from "1995" to now besides companies handing you everything for very little work.

Besides, for the amount of Animus weapons I see compared to Leviathan, Allagan or High Allagan weapons...pretty **** sure more people are happily going about this than you assume. I like the Zodiac quest because it shows exactly which generation of MMO gamers are playing this MMO. No one likes FATE spamming as NO ONE suggested it, not even the most casual 10 minute a day player, but the "grind" was pretty standard in MMOs for so long and should be mentioned that MMOs with 'said grind' lasted long and some still exist today compared to MMOs "without the grind" that tend to fail within a year, sometimes months after launch. ARR is a pure gear grind, this shouldn't be surprising.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 7:47am by Theonehio
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#9 Apr 20 2014 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Finished up my last 3 Atma yesterday and today and bought my book early this morning. I already have all 3 Fates and leves done and most of the groups of 10. Once I actually started straight grinding them out I did 10 or so Fates and they dropped.

Regarding Fates for the book I waited 3 minutes for Giant Seps (it popped while I had the leve there going) then ported in and the Rain one was up so no waiting at all, and waited maybe 10 or so minutes for the Enemies one in East Shroud.

Did it take awhile? Yes. Do I think it was worth it? Yes.
If you don't then use the other upgrade paths. Then you can come back on here and ***** about the abysmal drop rate of the mirrors and unidentified tomestones.

If I could find a group that could clear turn 5 or Titan ex I'd be doing the other upgrade paths but there you go. And I'm guessing there are a lot of others in the same boat. Without turn 6/7 drops or Levi drops you're pretty much stuck with the zodiac. Now maybe once I've got my 4 books done for WHM I'll go after getting those clears on my MNK for the harder stuff.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 5:23pm by LebargeX
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#10 Apr 20 2014 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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@Hitome, TheOnehio
The point is not that it takes long, the point is that two-shotting squirrels for hours upon hours upon hours as a @LV 50 hero of the realm is insulting; it was already insulting at LV 3, btw.
This is BS; and you just have to see it?
No matter how you twist it, this "dedication wall" is so stupidly implemented, I wonder whether Yoshi can still sit straight after pulling that one out of his rear.
But I guess you two can only see the glorious wall, and not how ugly it is?

P.S.: I did over 200 fates. 1 Atma. Oh glorious fun.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 8:23pm by Rinsui
#11 Apr 20 2014 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not going to claim to know exactly which aspect of atma farming the thread creator takes issue with, but it seems like a lot of people are focused on the fact that it's a grind.

A grind can be handled in lots of different ways, and disliking atma farming doesn't necessarily mean the same player is against all forms of grinding in MMOs, or that they want everything handed to them. Sure, there's some people who are just against grinds in general (and that, in itself, is a valid opinion) but there's also people who'd love to grind but want it to be attached to engaging content. And for a lot of people I've seen in game and around forums, FATEs are not very engaging or enjoyable in their current form. I saw a decent amount of people complaining about how prominent they were as a form of leveling your classes back when the game came out, and those issues are magnified now that those same players are steamrolling those same low level FATEs all over again, except now with an extreme case of RNG attached and at the max level possible for each FATE. From what I've seen, even most people advocating for atma farming agree that repeating FATEs for hours on end is, well, not all that fun.

Granted, that FATEs aren't enjoyable is a subjective opinion, but it seems to be a fairly popular one, and subjective factors can still be worth discussing considering that anything related to enjoyment is subjective and that is one of the biggest factors in any video game or form of entertainment.
#12 Apr 20 2014 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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I moved around a lot. If I did 8 or 10 and didn't get anything I would change zones. I grinded out one of the la nocsea zones for awhile then changed zones and got one on the third fate. So maybe try that.

I'm sorry that you're so upset about it. Buy lots of venture coins :)

In reply to susanoh I treated it like a scratcher lotto ticket. Most of the time nothing but a rush when you'd see that message in the chat log lol. That was my 'entertainment'.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 5:40pm by LebargeX

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 5:40pm by LebargeX
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#13 Apr 20 2014 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
In reply to susanoh I treated it like a scratcher lotto ticket. Most of the time nothing but a rush when you'd see that message in the chat log lol. That was my 'entertainment'.


Actually I agree with you on that. That's one of the things I do like about RNG, the feeling when you get it can be a lot more emotional than if you're just doing a mundane "do 100 of this" type of grind. (Edit: I do want to point out though, that this same feeling can be achieved in any RNG based grind, whether it's the most enjoyable event in the game or the most mundane)

Not even saying some people don't get enjoyment out of FATEs in themselves. There may be some that do, and those people can chime in on why they enjoy them so much. I'm not one of them (although I'm not necessarily against grinds either), but if some people love doing FATEs and want to talk about it, more power to them.

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 8:53pm by Susanoh
#14 Apr 20 2014 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
You've peaked my curiosity.

For what reason do you need this animus weapon ASAP? I want to know where this huge gear wall is that requires them so I can try it. I too wish I didn't have to do mindless, repetitive tasks in a MMO. You know? Like idling around town waiting for a dungeon queue to pop so I can do a dungeon with a bunch of deaf mutes for the 827th time this month with zero chance of dying because the dungeon was designed to be idiot-proof. Or idling around town some more when there isn't any content left to do because they neglected to put a grind into the game.

Or is this just another thread with ******** from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?


Edited, Apr 20th 2014 10:06am by HitomeOfBismarck


Nice assumption there.

This thread is about how RNG-based grindy mechanics are great when you're a no-life teenager/college student living at home with your parents, and how if you *aren't* one of those (i.e. has kids, works outside the home, is married) it's a ***** to have to rely on random chance for progress.

Some people had their Atma weapons in under 10 hours after the patch dropped. Others have grinded for 30+ hours without receiving a single Atma drop. If we're going to have about "entitlement" then the guy who has worked for 30+ hours has definitely put more effort into it than the <10 hours guy. But that doesn't matter, because it's random. There's nothing we can do to control it. I have found five Atma since patch. A friend of mine who has been trying for about as long as I have (around 37 hours total, dedicated to FATEing), has received one. Meanwhile, another friend of mine who started (as in, had done no FATE's outside of beast dailies) Monday of last week now has 7. RNG gods amirite?

Which has nothing to do with "entitlement" and everything to do with aspects outside of player control. Removing control from the player is one of the worst decisions you can make as a game developer. The whole point of the game is to give the player control of something out of the ordinary. Thus far, SE has done a great job of giving players alternate means of acquiring progression. Not getting lucky in Coil, or can't run it for whatever reason? Well, you can put myth tomes towards comparable gear. Maybe it's not BiS, but you're not dependent on RNG to progress your character.

With Atma, you are. And for people who can't make time for static EX and BC groups, much less dedicate the time to learning and executing the fights, you want to have something attainable that's within the control of the player, not random chance. It doesn't have to be the most powerful thing in the game, it just has to be something where it feels like meaningful work is being made towards the goal.
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#15 Apr 20 2014 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a kind of "now" person for this sort of thing, I want the glowing blazing mighty lion fists of destruction for Monk now, right now!.

However between them and me stood/stand...

12 Atmas
13500 Mythology
900 mobs
30 dungeon runs
30 fates hunts
30+ leves

It is quite a lot, I was hoping to finish the animus by the 3rd week after the path, sadly it didn't happen, but now on my 6th book and quite close to the goal, I realize that it was really intended to be a marathon not a race, a way to put all those extra Mythology tomes that you will farm anyway to some use and complete the weapon in 2 or 3 months at a reasonable peace, unfortunately it was unreasonable to think that your average MMORPG player would look at it that way.

In my opinion, the Zodiac weapon quest line is a good example of a good design in paper that translates in an awful implementation once it's actually live.
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#16 Apr 20 2014 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Or is this just another thread with ******** from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?


Another person that doesn't get it, what a surprise.

Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based, at least makes some attempt to be level-appropriate (why are we blasting away at all these level 10 fates with our level 50, ilvl 90~ characters?) and isn't completely ******* boring (because games should be, y'know, fun?).

Aside from the luck involved in getting a semi-competent group for HM primals, nothing in the relic quests up to this point was a huge, luck-based grind.
#17 Apr 20 2014 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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Or is this just another thread with ******** from entitled brats who want their stuff now or they'll quit the game?


Another person that doesn't get it, what a surprise.

Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based,.


Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based", so the ironic thing is, those who still ***** about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?

Quote:
Aside from the luck involved in getting a semi-competent group for HM primals, nothing in the relic quests up to this point was a huge, luck-based grind.


Exactly, Relics were HANDED OUT unless you utterly failed at Hard Mode primals or even Chimera/Hydra. Why on earth would people think the next step would have been the exact same handouts? People (including those who had every relic) wanted the next step to feel more like an actual progression rather than extension to your job quest, however no one asked for FATE grinding, but the portion after FATE grinding is exactly what people wanted unless, of course, they were indeed asking for handouts.

:)

Edited, Apr 20th 2014 10:30pm by Theonehio
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#18 Apr 21 2014 at 12:48 AM Rating: Default
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Theonehio wrote:


Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based", so the ironic thing is, those who still ***** about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?



I don't care if it's luck based, I don't care if it takes a year to get it. I just want something more than grinding mind numbing level 10 FATEs. Grinding level 50 content would ATMA farming less painful.
#19 Apr 21 2014 at 1:04 AM Rating: Default
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Animus progression is as far from luck based as possible, even the FATES related to it 99% of the time have triggers. Only the Atmas are "luck based",


Too bad animus progression is completely meaningless to anyone who doesn't get past the atma step.

It's kinda like all the "oh, you can just spam Leviathan EX / coil v2 instead!" blabbering is completely meaningless to the people still stuck on Titan EX and coil v1.

Quote:
so the ironic thing is, those who still ***** about even the Book portion are indeed asking for handouts because you're given a CLEAR CUT GOAL with the books, you know, nothing luck based?


Tbh the only people I really see ******** about the books are doing so for... the FATE sections.

Apparently, standing around waiting for a specific FATE that often takes hours to spawn is boring as ****. Who would have thought.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 3:17am by Fynlar
#20 Apr 21 2014 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Apparently, standing around waiting for a specific FATE that often takes hours to spawn is boring as ****. Who would have thought.
To be fair people waiting for hours for a specific FATE are Google impaired, after my first 45 minutes waiting for the infamous "Giant Seps", I decided to google it and found that the number of FATE's per area are caped and you have to clear the current FATE's to let new ones pop, otherwise you are waiting for the timers to expire.

Afterwards I just started clearing and... bingo! 30 minutes later I was already looking for the next one.

Edit: typo

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 8:04am by kenage
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#21 Apr 21 2014 at 2:21 AM Rating: Default
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To be fair people waiting for hours for a specific FATE are Google impaired, after my first 45 minutes waiting for the infamous "Giant Seps", I decided to google it and found that the number of FATE's per area are caped and you have to clear the current FATE's to let new ones pop, otherwise you are waiting for the timers to expire.


So... how exactly does this information help anyone? You still have to wait. You can't exactly run around and help clear out the current FATEs either, or else the people who are waiting for the specific one needed will zerg it and kill it before you can get back. You also still have no exact indication of when it'll pop again.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 4:21am by Fynlar
#22 Apr 21 2014 at 2:42 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Most folks aren't asking for handouts. They're asking for an upgrade process that isn't luck-based, at least makes some attempt to be level-appropriate (why are we blasting away at all these level 10 fates with our level 50, ilvl 90~ characters?) and isn't completely ******* boring (because games should be, y'know, fun?).

This so much.

Most people have no problem with a large time commitment. The biggest problem most people have is the fact that grinding low level FATEs on high level jobs for a very low drop rate item is one of the most annoying and boring things imaginable. It's not entitlement to expect a game to be fun, not boring. At least let me do those FATEs on a lower level job for exp, or guarantee me a drop if I hit X number of FATEs in an area and still don't have it, or something. Something, ANYTHING, to make it feel like I'm not totally wasting my time for nothing.
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#23 Apr 21 2014 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
It's not entitlement to expect a game to be fun, not boring.


Why yes it is when you are given the choice to do many things for similar (or better!) results and you choose to spend your time hunting atmas.

The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.

*Quote marks used due to the complete subjectivity of the words "fun" and "boring".
#24 Apr 21 2014 at 5:30 AM Rating: Good
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The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because of something like this?

There's quite a few people who don't like the system, that I've been hearing. I, myself, don't think it is so bad but I do agree it could use a few tweaks to improve the QoL a bit (such as allowing you to use other classes, that's the big #1 one for me).
#25 Apr 21 2014 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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kenage wrote:
I'm a kind of "now" person for this sort of thing, I want the glowing blazing mighty lion fists of destruction for Monk now, right now!.

However between them and me stood/stand...

12 Atmas
13500 Mythology
900 mobs
30 dungeon runs
30 fates hunts
30+ leves

It is quite a lot, I was hoping to finish the animus by the 3rd week after the path, sadly it didn't happen, but now on my 6th book and quite close to the goal, I realize that it was really intended to be a marathon not a race, a way to put all those extra Mythology tomes that you will farm anyway to some use and complete the weapon in 2 or 3 months at a reasonable peace, unfortunately it was unreasonable to think that your average MMORPG player would look at it that way.

In my opinion, the Zodiac weapon quest line is a good example of a good design in paper that translates in an awful implementation once it's actually live.


Wow... It looks different put all out on paper, never really realized I did all that! I guess that's why I've been taking a break from playing this week. LOL But all in all, booo to the man that made this thread. I use to brag that these threads hadn't popped up on Zam yet... But here we are...

You know they say that only a small percentage of the population actually voice their concerns on forums, while the rest of the Atma farming people are to busy farming atma, and playing the game to post on the threads complaining about it. I guess my question to the OP is.... What did you hope to achieve by making this thread?

Now don't get me wrong, I do agree that maybe there should have been some other way of getting the 12 Atma's besides doing old low level Fate's, but Fate's are kinda like our today's NM's. And since there is no NM's to camp, we must camp the Fate's. They could have made it drop from particular fates, or boss fates only, then instead of doing the sheer amount we do now for them to drop, you could be left with doing these particular ones that don't pop much, having the whole server camped out at particular fates downing them in mere seconds. Then you might complain about how its to hard to get silver or gold. Or to long waiting on fate's and how you wish you could get the atma's from any fate.

I think it really reflects on how fast people want things done, and how entitled people are to their opinions in this new internet based world. I remember I told my cousin, lets go back and look at old forums and see how many people use to get mad at some of the stuff that was required in FFXI... We searched for two hours, going far back as to 2002 looking for people's thoughts on FFXI before the first expansion, decoding Japanese text, and looking at generally how people felt about doing certain things like the Dynamis grind to get their relics. And you know what... they were very hard to find.

No one got mad about farming Dynamis over and over and over, and said their AF drop rate sucks, and all this about this needs to be fixed, and that needs to be changed. The old MMO'ers of old were fierce, and they went out and tried to accomplish these things because the game asked them to. They didn't huddle around forums hoping that the game developers would hear their cries, and change the process.

It's kinda how media changed games. Back in the day we didn't wait to see review scores before we went out to buy a game. You were just in the store, and looked at the back of the box, and was like hmmm this looks good, and you bought it. You fell off the side of that cliff 20 times, and thought to yourself this stage is hard as ****, but you didn't hit internet forums saying the game was broken, and that cliff needed to be looked into. Times have changed and so have people, and I can only hope that Yoshi P doesn't listen to every moan about these type of things. Like someone else said I welcome that he gave us 3 different paths to get good, great, and better weapons. All these things take time, it's kinda sucky, but you will feel good once you've accomplished it... I guarantee it!! I did....

And believe me, the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. I know people who's fought Leviathan extreme 50+ times and haven't seen the mirror drop, some people have fought him 30 times and haven't seen their weapon drop. Not to mention that the Weathered weapon takes a drop from turn 8, and about 4 weeks of Soldiery to get it, and lets not even talk about beating turn 9 in hopes your weapon will drop. You'll need that bad boy on farm status. MMORPG's take time... Matter fact... They take perseverance, determination, skill, and patience, sprinkled with luck. You need luck to see the drop, you need luck to win the lot... Patience my friend, wax on, wax off!!!



Edited, Apr 21st 2014 8:12am by SirLuciousLeftfoot
#26 Apr 21 2014 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:
The game gives you plenty of opportunities to have "fun"; you choose to ignore them and do something you find "boring". Which you then want changed because you don't find it "fun"*.


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because of something like this?

There's quite a few people who don't like the system, that I've been hearing. I, myself, don't think it is so bad but I do agree it could use a few tweaks to improve the QoL a bit (such as allowing you to use other classes, that's the big #1 one for me).


So people are supposed to just skip a good chunk of progression because they don't like it?

Um... Yes. I agree that a few QoL improvements would be nice but let's not pretend many of these people would leave it at that.

Then again, this game is full of people who clearly hate the game and themselves but still play. So maybe that's not such a good advice after all.

Quote:
And believe me, the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. I know people who's fought Leviathan extreme 50+ times and haven't seen the mirror drop, some people have fought him 30 times and haven't seen their weapon drop. Not to mention that the Weathered weapon takes a drop from turn 8, and about 4 weeks of Soldiery to get it, and lets not even talk about beating turn 9 in hopes your weapon will drop. You'll need that bad boy on farm status. MMORPG's take time... Matter fact... They take perseverance, determination, skill, and patience, sprinkled with luck. You need luck to see the drop, you need luck to win the lot... Patience my friend, wax on, wax off!!!


The difference with the content you're talking about is that you don't have to do low level content to accomplish these goals. Clearly this content is a great alternative to people who don't like playing low level content but they still choose to play the low level content and then ***** about it. What a complete nonsense.

Edited, Apr 21st 2014 12:22pm by Hyanmen
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