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#52 Mar 19 2014 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
I won't be buying another retainer unless I actually need the space, and I don't see why I ever would. My character has more than enough inventory space right now.

Actually, I'm about to have even more space... now that DL will be dropping in dungeons, I can toss all of the level 55-60 gear that I've been hoarding on my retainer!

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 11:16am by Thayos
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#53 Mar 19 2014 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Nashred wrote:
So basically what you say is fact and what I say is anecdtoal.. I see...

It really seems that is said when I compare anything in this game to FFXI.

I also thoughT storage was a issue in FFXI and maybe a bigger issue than this game.



No basically what I am saying is show me evidence that I am wrong. Since I am only providing anecdotal evidence, you should be able to debunk it with anecdotal evidence of your own.

Don't even try to back pedal down that road. When we talk about P2W and cash shop, naturally we will look at other MMO models. It just so happens that 11 was made by the same company that made 14 and shares many similarities when it comes to their business model.

Want to speak about WoW? How about GW2? Pick a game and we'll look at their cash shop options.

Want to isolate FF14 and say it's a special case: completely uninfluenced by other MMOs? Then get the @#%^ out. It's useless to debate with people who want to play both sides of the fence when it's most convenient to them. Cherry pick all you want but as it stands, all it looks like is a bunch of whining by the typical crowd of people who do nothing but complain about the game.

Not one of these complaints about this new system has been objective or rational. The closest you got was here:

Nashred wrote:
May not be game breaking but having a extra retainer sure does give you a advantage.. It allows you too make more gil and store more stuff for crafting so there is another advantage.. It allows you to save more drops, it allows you to save more stuff till market conditions change.. Allows you to save more Gear.. If there wasn't a advantage people would not care about having a extra retainer or be one of the most anticipated thing. Are you going to buy one? and why? Because it give you an advantage in the game.


and your points were easily torn down:

Hairspray wrote:
You paid an extra $1/month for "Retainers" (mules)... so over the course of 7 or so years i played I probably paid upwards of $100 just in "retainer" fees. And I was happy to do it, because I was a crafter and I needed the extra storage and the extra sellers on the AH.

This is just a different way of selling us the same thing we were already circumventing the system to get anyways.

Catwho wrote:
I was under the assumption that only one retainer could be used for ventures at a time, in which case someone having more than two is not game breaking.

Mules in XI were absolutely used in the exact same way we use retainers. I leveled one to 25 thf for farming in Sarutabaruta. He did harvesting and killed crawlers and bees. I had no room on my main for that.

Thayos wrote:
This.

If Yoshi-P starts talking about selling armor skins, gear, experience points, tomes, etc., for real money, then I'll start questioning the integrity of the game. But this is a business model SE used in XI, only in XI, we had to log out and log back in to access our mules. This just streamlines the process.


and you have yet another person telling you that inventory is fine as is:

Thayos wrote:
I wouldn't call having more inventory space "winning," especially when we already have 100 slots plus all of our retainer slots plus an armory chest. I've never come close to maxing out space on my character, and I'm sure I'm on the upper end of playtime for a "casual" player.

If we only had like 50 inventory slots PERIOD, and now SE wanted to charge for more space, then that would be a different story... that's the kind of thing that other P2P/P2W games seem to do. However, characters in ARR have more than enough inventory space without needing to worry about buying new retainers... this is purely a luxury, not a "need" being hidden behind a paywall.

Thayos wrote:
Yes, almost daily.

I'm constantly leveling battle and crafting classes, and I craft a small amount, too... I almost always have 25 available slots on my personal inventory, plus around 40 available slots on my retainer, plus about 1/3 of armory slots open.

I can't remember the last time I heard someone in the game complain about inventory space. This isn't like FFXI, when one job required multiple sets of gear for all your different spells and abilities, leaving virtually no space for carrying crafting items. Players are given more than enough inventory space between their personal slots, armory chest slots and retainer slots.

svlyons wrote:
People don't need more storage. They want more storage. It makes their life more convenient. Not having access to the maximum amount of convenience is not a pay wall. This really takes first world problems to a whole new level, since every problem in a MMORPG is already a first world problem.

Gnu wrote:
Don't most people already have a second character? That you pay extra for? That has extra space? To the tune of two extra retainers and a full character inventory? The basic sub is just one character.


Gnu makes a good point: why aren't you throwing a fit about paying for an extra alt that provides even more inventory since this type of microtransaction already exists?

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:14pm by HitomeOfBismarck


Why because you pick people that agree with your so my argument is tore down and your stand.. Give me a break. one other person doesn't have a full inventory so you are automatically right..
I say micro-transactions are not good for this game, so what if they exist in other games. So far not one shred of evidence on how it is good for this game..
I am out of this conversation because it will just go in circles.





Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:20pm by Nashred
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#54 Mar 19 2014 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
I still don't get why Preludes and Lucas are here, on these forums, discussing a game they probably don't even play. If they do play, then why the hell are you complaining about EVERY little thing. You guys keep listing these other games with better options and what not, then go play them!

You people are the equivalent of those Metacritic folk who gives games a 0 just cause you're angry it stole your candy. I can only imagine how depressing it must be being around you guys outside in the real world. If you nitpick an MMO this bad, you must hate EVERYTHING you do. This ice cream is good..but that one over there is better...but I'm gonna keep eating this one and tell people how much it sucks. While that better one is out there....

Don't get me wrong here, there's things I despise about XIV. That being said, there's things I hate about every game I play, but if I hate it enough I don't stick around the games community and keep bashing it. I try to you know, find something else to play that I enjoy!
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#55 Mar 19 2014 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nashred wrote:
I am out of this conversation because it will just go in circles.


Probably a wise decision.

Less you have some awesome rebuttal regarding why controlled microtransactions (that are already in this game) are a detrimental thing.
#56 Mar 19 2014 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Tomes

No more Philosophy after 2.2
Myth will take Philosophy's place
There will be an NPC around to trade Phil for Myth.


So, am I wrong in thinking it would be a good idea to max out Philo just before the patch for an extra boost of Myth?

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:32pm by Xoie
#57 Mar 19 2014 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
Don't most people already have a second character? That you pay extra for? That has extra space? To the tune of two extra retainers and a full character inventory? The basic sub is just one character.

I would be surprised if people made use of the extra space on an alt as commonly as they did in XI. It is far more difficulty to transfer things between your main character and your alt in XIV. You either need to use a trusted friend as an intermediary or use a FC chest to transfer stuff. The FC chest has a limited size, so the more people there are in your FC, the more likely you are to run into conflicts with others trying to do the same thing. My guess is that for every FC, only a few of their members actually use the FC chest to move stuff back and forth.

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I still don't get why Preludes and Lucas are here, on these forums, discussing a game they probably don't even play.

To be fair, Lucas hasn't been exaggeratingly critical or even critical 100% of the time.
#58 Mar 19 2014 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Tomes

No more Philosophy after 2.2
Myth will take Philosophy's place
There will be an NPC around to trade Phil for Myth.


So, am I wrong in thinking it would be a good idea to max out Philo just before the patch for an extra boost of Myth?

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:32pm by Xoie



We were talking about that some where else and it would probably be wise even though it wont be a 1 to1 ratio...
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#59 Mar 19 2014 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
Still waiting on an answer as to why they should be Cash Shop instead of a quest.

Still wondering why you would defend this. At the very least you should all be saying, "I'm against this, but I'm willing to deal with it."

I think we should all be reasonable here. We're acting like MSNBC vs. FOX, we can find some middle ground here. I'm not slamming my pitch fork around calling for Yoshi-P to be strung up. I'm pretty sure that none of like this but yes if it's like 99 cents and similar to the price of a FFXI mule it could be worse. But it's still a slippery slope because this is still a paid character upgrade.

By the way, I do still subscribe, to whoever I said I don't play... my time ingame has definitely gotten lesser with less things for me to do but I do go on from time to time with friends & I'm still paying and actively following the game for when I feel like I have a reason to log in. Since I'm still a customer I think I have the right to say this is wrong.

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:51pm by LucasNox
#60 Mar 19 2014 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
You people are the equivalent of those Metacritic folk who gives games a 0 just cause you're angry it stole your candy.


This is a bullcrap reply and let me tell you why. I have as recently as 2 days ago recommended this game as being worth buying for the PC, on this forum, under this username.

I'm sorry that you're not emotionally confident enough to let your favorite game be criticized but please don't take it out on me and act like I'm some butthurt Metacritic troll when I'm not.

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:48pm by LucasNox
#61 Mar 19 2014 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Of course, I would prefer if extra retainers were free, just like I would have wanted free mules in XI. I just don't see this as a big deal. We barely had any inventory room when XI launched. In this game, we have tons of space. Sure, people who keep everything they ever find with no real plan for optimization may be tight on space, but this just isn't an issue that is on most players' radars.

The fact that myth tomes are going bye-bye and dark light will drop in dungeons is far more notable.
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#62 Mar 19 2014 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Tomes

No more Philosophy after 2.2
Myth will take Philosophy's place
There will be an NPC around to trade Phil for Myth.


So, am I wrong in thinking it would be a good idea to max out Philo just before the patch for an extra boost of Myth?


This is what I was thinking too. :)

Still unsure whether we will actually get phil. tomes or not. If we get phil. tomes, we can simply trade them in for myth. tomes...but kind of a pointless way to go about it I think.

Lucas: of course I don't want to spend extra money. on a game. Therefore I won't. It's not necessary at all for me. Why would I be upset about this, then?

Like Thayos mentioned: if this had been FF11 and they pulled this ****, I would be pretty furious. Inventory was a huge issue in 11. I just am not seeing the same severity in 14, though.

Also, I don't understand why it is such a shock that the same company would use the same model for another game they produce in the same category. I don't understand why people aren't throwing fits about microtransactions like server transfers, soon to be fantasia, and the limitations placed on alt characters atm.

Quote:
I would like to know the fees and billing format for FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn.

The fees for FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn at time of official launch are as follows:

â—†Entry
   Subscription Period: 30 days
   Fee: $12.99
   Number of playable characters: 1 per World and up to 8 per service account

â—†Standard
   Subscription Period: 30 days
   Fee: $14.99
   Number of playable characters: 8 per World and up to 40 per service account

Fees for subscription cycles longer than 30 days require a payment when the subscription option is chosen.

â—†Standard
   Subscription Period: 90 days
   Fee: $41.97 (13.99/Month)
   Number of playable characters: 8 per World and up to 40 per service account

â—†Standard
   Subscription Period: 180 days
   Fee: $77.94 (12.99/Month)
   Number of playable characters: 8 per World and up to 40 per service account


If I ever ran out of room, I could easily toss it in my FC bank and have it on my alt within a few minutes. And I pay $2 for this service. The only reason I pay the fee is because I have an alt character that I play. Storage is just a bonus.

What I'm saying: this issue is already present. Why complain about it now?

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 3:04pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#63 Mar 19 2014 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
Okay but we also need to keep in mind a few other things.

You can downplay the usefulness of a bonus retainer at this time, but we do know for sure that they are to become more useful/significant over time.

I believe missions/quests have been mentioned in this thread and retainer combat functionality has been mentioned by Yoshi-P. Now this could lead to your separate retainers having separate jobs & levels and then we're definitely going into territory where I believe having bonus retainers would be seen as a necessity by many players.

Now let me be clear here, by no means do I believe that Square Enix would have the audacity to focus any development time on retainer functionality moreso because they can now be purchased with extra real money. But, the possibility should be kept in mind.
#64 Mar 19 2014 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
The real question is, do you trust the ffxiv playerbase not to buy many, many retainers and show Square how profitable the cash shop can be? Just look at how infested the game is with gil buyers.

Oh and FFXI isn't a good comparison here, extra characters were always part of the game, they were never meant to be used as mules and they never gave anywhere near as big a benefit as these will.
#65 Mar 19 2014 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Hairspray wrote:
I hate to say it guys, but if you're that opposed to cash shops, you should stop playing MMO's now... this is the only one that didn't have one (up until 2.2 anyways)... they all nickle and dime you now... it's the nature of the beast. Cash shops are extremely profitable.

When I played DCUO I paid a subscription even after it went FTP because I wanted access to all of the expansions and some other perks that came with being a paid subscriber...

And I STILL bought stuff off of the cash shop too.

It's happening whether or not you agree, so you can either buy them or not buy them off the cash shop...

Play the game because you like to, if that changes then stop playing. There's no reason to fret about cash shops, they really don't affect you. FFXIV is not going to be Pay-To-Win... ever. If you don't believe that then you haven't been paying attention.


^^ this 100%

Personally I have no problem with retainer microtransactions. Wouldnt mind vanity gear, more pets/ mounts either. To each his own.
Play the game if it makes you happy ,and the moment you stop enjoying it, for cash shop reasons or any other,..then simply....stop playing it and go.
No forum raging, or hating on others for a different opinion, just be an adult, and go. Some will leave, some stay, neither right nor wrong, just a different perspectives.
SE will do whatever it takes to make the most $$, as all MMOs do currently. This can commonly involve cash shops.
#66 Mar 19 2014 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
LucasNox wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
You people are the equivalent of those Metacritic folk who gives games a 0 just cause you're angry it stole your candy.


This is a bullcrap reply and let me tell you why. I have as recently as 2 days ago recommended this game as being worth buying for the PC, on this forum, under this username.

I'm sorry that you're not emotionally confident enough to let your favorite game be criticized but please don't take it out on me and act like I'm some butthurt Metacritic troll when I'm not.

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 2:48pm by LucasNox


Like I said, I have my issues with this game, quite a few of them in fact. It just seems like EVERY little thing that gets discussed on this forum, is just not up to snuff. Saying a mule from XI and a retainer isn't the same thing cause you could use the mule is a weak point. 99% of the people who had mules used them for retainer purposes, nothing else, and no one had an issue paying that extra $. If you did have an issue, you simply didn't get an extra character and managed with what you had.

XIV offers you plenty of inventory, 2 retainers at no charge, if you want more my guess is you're a hoarder in game and need to drop or sell some stuff off. Sure SE could offer up more inventory space at no charge, but for what, so you can hoard more pebbles in case you need them 3 years down the road for that craft you might start up? Gotta hang on to that darklight gear you're never gonna use again! You just never know! Even XI towards the end, my friends had inventory issues but had crap like o-hat in their inventory. It was utterly useless by that point and was in there out of pure emotional attachment.
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#67 Mar 19 2014 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Oh and FFXI isn't a good comparison here, extra characters were always part of the game, they were never meant to be used as mules and they never gave anywhere near as big a benefit as these will.


I started playing XI a year after the game launched in NA, and by then, everyone had mules. My gaming habits haven't changed at all since then... currently, I have no need for added inventory space. Back in XI, though, I had two or three mules.

Those mules were incredibly useful, too. You could have a mule in each city, so you could use them to check things on the different auction houses. Also, people who were into crafting could level different mules to the max level of crafting (in XI, you couldn't have one character be max level in all crafts). You could also level up each mule and use it for farming or gathering, allowing you to park your main character wherever you need to be for your next open-world pop window... and between pop times, you could switch to your mule and go back to crafting/gathering.

To say XI mules didn't give as big of a benefit is hugely mistaken. You could argue that having a mule during the first few years of FFXI was actually "required" to "win," especially if you played as a rdm. Smiley: smile

Also, regardless of whether mules were ever intended in XI, they were quickly accepted as part of the game by the dev team. Developers frequently talked about players and their mule accounts, and they didn't do anything until much later in the game's life to provide other inventory options.



Edited, Mar 19th 2014 12:06pm by Thayos
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#68 Mar 19 2014 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
You just never know! Even XI towards the end, my friends had inventory issues but had crap like o-hat in their inventory. It was utterly useless by that point and was in there out of pure emotional attachment.


What kind of statement are you saying here? That we should just trash items that we might have some emotional attachment to? Especially ones we can't get later.

What about event items that don't do anything? You're basically saying that events are useless and they should stop making them because we're just going to trash the items.

Please be more clear. Yeah I do like collecting items that I may not necessarily have an immediate, endgame need for. This includes event items & collectibles which expands my need for inventory space. Do you have a problem with how I play the game? I kept a lot of R/EX collectibles in my FFXI storage until the end.

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 3:08pm by LucasNox
#69 Mar 19 2014 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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Most event gear can be stored away in your armoire... AF gear can as well.

You probably shouldn't hoard crap like I do on my mule with the old AK gear. You can obtain that again without too much difficulty if you really like the design that much.
#70 Mar 19 2014 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
What I'm saying: this issue is already present. Why complain about it now?


What I'm wondering is why you feel the need to quote all of the pricing and information about Final Fantasy XIV in your post. I think most of us are lucid enough to know how much we're paying for and what we're paying for. So yes, most of us already know that having a lot of characters raises your subscription fee.

I don't agree with that either, and I have always publicly disagreed with it. HOWEVER, there's a big difference between that and the Cash Shop upgrades which are going to be offered shortly. Slippery slope.

We're talking about a lot of possibilities for future other paid cash shop upgrades now, we're talking about development focuses possibly changing to suit the needs of those who would be willing to buy something such as a bonus retainer, etc., the possibility of some subscribers being seen (maybe not publicly) as less important, which they'll have to see us as if we pay less (they're a business). Up to now we have for the most part all been on equal footing as subscribers over the course of ARR and over the course of XIV's lifetime. Until now.



Edited, Mar 19th 2014 3:16pm by LucasNox
#71 Mar 19 2014 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Yeah I do like collecting items that I may not necessarily have an immediate, endgame need for. This includes event items & collectibles which expands my need for inventory space. Do you have a problem with how I play the game? I kept a lot of R/EX collectibles in my FFXI storage until the end.


I see nothing wrong with this.

However, players don't -need- to keep everything they've ever earned or found. It's a choice. I've kept my special event items, and I've hoarded lots of iLevel 55 and 60 gear for jobs I haven't leveled yet -- and yes, I still have that Ifrit's Blade in my inventory, even though I have my paladin relic -- and I craft, and I level multiple jobs, yet I still have around 70 open inventory slots.

I've made the choice to be a little more selective in what I keep, given the (generous) inventory limitations of this game, and thus I have absolutely no problems with storage space (nor do I struggle to earn gil).

Edited, Mar 19th 2014 12:18pm by Thayos
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#72 Mar 19 2014 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
On FFXI you paid extra money for extra playable characters, FFXIV already has a system like this as you can see below. Mules were never Square cashing in on inventory/bank space, players used them as such but they never envisioned them being as they were used.

What we have here is something above and beyond what FFXI offered.

The system FFXIV has that was like the extra character payments FFXI had.

Membership Price Days Characters - World Characters - Total
Entry £7.69/€10.99/$12.99 30 1 8
Standard £8.99/€12.99/$14.99 30 8 40
#73 Mar 19 2014 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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LucasNox wrote:
What I'm wondering is why you feel the need to quote all of the pricing and information about Final Fantasy XIV in your post. I think most of us are lucid enough to know how much we're paying for and what we're paying for.


Sometimes I wonder.

LucasNox wrote:
I don't agree with that either, and I have always publicly disagreed with it. HOWEVER, there's a big difference between that and the Cash Shop upgrades which are going to be offered shortly. Slippery slope.

We're talking about a lot of possibilities for future other paid cash shop upgrades now, we're talking about development focuses possibly changing to suit the needs of those who would be willing to buy something such as a bonus retainer, etc., the possibility of some subscribers being seen (maybe not publicly) as less important, which they'll have to see us as if we pay less (they're a business). Up to now we have for the most part all been on equal footing as subscribers over the course of ARR and over the course of XIV's lifetime. Until now.


I'll repeat (once again): we already have a model, that SE uses, to which we may make speculations about 14.
#74 Mar 19 2014 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Extra characters in XIV are not nearly the same as mules in XI.

In XI, mules were much more necessary in order to be successful in the game.

In XIV, added retainers are a total luxury.

In my post above, I clearly outline how much more needed mules were in XI. What we are getting in XI is slightly disturbing, but it is far, far, far from p2w.
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#75 Mar 19 2014 at 1:46 PM Rating: Default
Nobody has really argued that FFXI had some P2W elements like the ugly $40 jewelry that they sold just to get people to buy that R/EX teleport cloak, the infamous Mog Satchel which forced people to buy the password token, and other codes for various other random physical purchases that nobody wanted.

I'm pretty sure that we were basically sold quests which should have just been basic patches with those "mini-expansions", weddings used to cost money on FFXI and required a real GM to be your wedding manager, and there's probably other stuff.

FFXIV could potentially be worse though within 6 months considering the market climate and the Mog Station that they've set up. I'll refer back to this post in 6 months for a nice "told you so" if necessary.
#76 Mar 19 2014 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not gonna stick my foot too deep into the P2P mess, but I will say XI's mule model is technically more expensive over time than a one-and-done deal. A lot of people technically ran a mule in each main city with their main's plopped in Jeuno or Whitegate, leading to an additional $36 a year. "Are you really getting your money's worth?" is a question I'd just reiterate again with a dash of "Just because XI did something, doesn't mean it was done well..."
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