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Warrior vs Paladin Difference in tanking/ player behavior??Follow

#1 Mar 09 2014 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Sooo I've taken to leveling up all the DoM and DoW Classes. I started the game back in beta with Gladiator > Paladin. I've never played a tank in an MMO so it was definitely a great learning experience. I made plenty of rookie mistakes, and I'll admit I wasn't nearly the best tank out there. After reaching 50 I leveled up Conjurer > White Mage, Arcanist > Scholar/ Summoner, Thamaturge > Black Mage, and then Archer > Bard.

So now I've decided to level up Marauder > Warrior.

Obviously by now the low level dungeons are routine for me. All those duty roulettes have really made me the Sastasha Pro. -_-

Anyways, I've noticed that when I'm playing as Paladin people wait for me to make the first move. They wait for me to mark my targets and follow the order, but when I'm playing as Warrior....It's like I'm taking a bunch of kids on a field trip. The DPS run ahead of me, no one attacks the targets I mark, no one listens to my explanations of dungeon bosses, it's very weird!

And this isn't just low level dungeons, it's carrying all the way up to Sunken Temple of Qarn so far (haven't finished leveling yet.)

And YES I understand trolls are out there, but these people are actually playing to advance through dungeon not just be a douche..

Did any one else experience this shift in respect?
#2 Mar 10 2014 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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It's not a PLD vs WAR thing, it's just the shift in player mentality that's occurred in that time span.

And yes, I've noticed it too. I haven't even been playing as long.
#3 Mar 10 2014 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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monkyzway wrote:

Did any one else experience this shift in respect?


I don't always see warriors mark targets. But when I do, I attack them in order. Smiley: schooled

Edited, Mar 10th 2014 9:02am by Valkayree
#4 Mar 10 2014 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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That's actually funny, I just had my first occurance of that happening NON-STOP as pld. It's awesome because their mentality is, "Don't worry about it, we got this". Then when people die ya kinda feel like crap cause it is impossible to hold hate on two single target DDs fighting two mobs you didn't mark (aka not the mob you focused on to start).

My favorite is now people feel that tanks pull to slow, so they will pull everything they see, and think it's ok and everyone can kill everything (ignoring the fact that 1/2 the party isn't even at level cap, let alone in any end-game gear).
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#5 Mar 10 2014 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
That's actually funny, I just had my first occurance of that happening NON-STOP as pld. It's awesome because their mentality is, "Don't worry about it, we got this". Then when people die ya kinda feel like crap cause it is impossible to hold hate on two single target DDs fighting two mobs you didn't mark (aka not the mob you focused on to start).

My favorite is now people feel that tanks pull to slow, so they will pull everything they see, and think it's ok and everyone can kill everything (ignoring the fact that 1/2 the party isn't even at level cap, let alone in any end-game gear).


While leveling drg, I could sometimes gear to the point where I would have more HP than a weakly geared gladiator or paladin. The tank died a few times and I could sub tank the rest of the group. Once, on Ifrit normal, in my duty roulette, I came across a tank that simply ran circles the entire battle. Drg tank ftw.

From experience, meele dps should switch mentality for end game dungeons.
#6 Mar 10 2014 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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It seems the trolls have moved into the low level dungeons lately. I have seen less trolling lately in even stuff like titan and end game.. CT has been really good lately other than on a rare occasion...

This weekend we had a troll tank in Sastasha. this guy would run and pull to many mobs and run around like crazy so you could not heal him.. Then when their was boss fights he would run in start the fight and run out locking us in with the boss with no tank.. I was leveling dragon.. Well we beat the first two bosses with out a tank.. What is weird is no one would kick him, people would say I hate to say it but we need him. What can you do about this stuff. He only finished the last fight because I threatened to get a gm in..

What can you do about this kind of stuff?.. SE needs to have some sort of consequences or this will never stop... They need some kind of list that these people end up on so you dont have to play with hem and eventually the trolls end up only playing with each other. why can we recommend people but not give negative feedback..
I was a beta tester for xbox live way back when and they have a method built in to xbox live. You can avoid certain people and it will never throw you into party with them. It also shows their ratings to people if you look them up... They have a avoidance rating . You know then it would make it hard for these people even to get in a fc.. Because FC could look this person up and see if he is trouble.







Edited, Mar 10th 2014 10:32am by Nashred
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#7 Mar 10 2014 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I mean, i'm a paladin myself, but I dont know, when i'm on a DPS my playstyle does differ whenever i end up in a dungeon with a Warrior instead of a Paladin.

With a warrior i know there's no point in binding or sleeping monsters, since they hit everything. I feel more inclined to just AoE as well, or attack whenever. I know they can keep hate regardless, and just pick whatever target is hurt the most or whatever target i feel poses the most risk to the party by staying alive.

If i were to have a paladin in that same dungeon/group, i'd be careful, fight only the target he would be fighting. Bind or Sleep the ones he isnt targeting, and keep an eye out for my hate on all the targets he isnt currently attacking.

Its a pretty extreme change for me.
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#8 Mar 10 2014 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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You guys are acting like its impossible to deal with a situation like this. As a main tank i can tell you marking targets is only truly usefull if people follow it, and on fights where theres a reason to follow it. A lot of people don't tend to care about the markings in dungeons however there are ways to deal with it.

First, you need to understand how hate works. (I'm sure you know this already but this is the most important part) If people are fighting whatever mob they want, regardless of what you want them to fight, you need to make sure that you are tryin to tank the right mobs. This means switching your target and fighting what they are fighting. Whether you want to or not. If you are appropriatley geared, you shouldnt have any trouble getting the attention of their mob. When starting a fight, flash and overpower are great for getting initial enmity on mobs. Once you have that, switch to the specific mobs that need attention and rotate your combo between the two, using flash and overpower in between to hold hate on mobs not being focused. Periodically switch to the non-focused mobs and use a combo to make sure healers dont grab hate, because they eventually will if your not doing anything about those mobs.

Obviously there are trolls and trying to deal with them is pointless so just kick and move on. But those DPS trying to go faster isn't neccessarily a bad thing. You can use that situation as a good way to improve yourself as a tank. Learning how to manage larger groups of mobs as well as people fighting multiple things at once will be a good experience. Once you learn to deal with situations like this, they will no longer be a problem.

My pholosophy when going in solo to a dungeon is this: everyone is a tard, and its my job to carry them. This way i give my best, and do whatever i need to do to make the fight as easy as possible for the team.
#9 Mar 10 2014 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
The only time I see a difference is at T4 fighting Dreadnaughts, or sometimes in Garuda EX mitigating the damage of Double Wicked Wheel.

Paladin simply has a deeper supply of Defensive cooldowns for damage mitigation, while WARs simply do more damage. It's the design intent, and it shows clearly.

A good WHM who reapplies Stoneskin for the critical moments can make there be very little difference indeed between the two tanking styles, or how they need to be healed. In which case the damage from the WAR tank is a nice bonus. Healing a PLD using cool-downs efficiently IS easier.

For 8-man, one of each is nice. For 4 man, WAR has a small edge on PLD by spamming Overpower for both hate and damage. A good PLD can maintain hate no matter what the DD's throw at the mobs, as explained above, just less of the extra AoE damage.

Also, there is no viable spec where a PLD can suddenly become on par with DD. Let me tell you, the Marauder DD Spec is a real thing, and the damage they can do is on par with well geared DD, especially for grouped mobs. (Did you know WHM still wins for most AoE damage in a mid-range burst? Even after the Holy nerf. Holy FTW! The sustained AoE damage puts Holy spam higher than double Flare BLM's for a medium-to-long period of time.)

And as noted above. Most DD in 4-mans dungeons are so overgeared that don't really even need a tank, so strategies for Tanking in 4-man dungeons are not a critical as I would prefer. That yet another reason I would like to see 4-man dungeons be more relevant/challenging at End-game.
#10 Mar 10 2014 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:

Also, there is no viable spec where a PLD can suddenly become on par with DD. Let me tell you, the Marauder DD Spec is a real thing, and the damage they can do is on par with well geared DD, especially for grouped mobs. (Did you know WHM still wins for most AoE damage in a mid-range burst? Even after the Holy nerf. Holy FTW! The sustained AoE damage puts Holy spam higher than double Flare BLM's for a medium-to-long period of time.)


If I Fire III, then swiftcast Flare, I deal 2.5k to everything. That's quite a burst. Not sure if any amount of holy can match that. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are trying to get at.
#11 Mar 10 2014 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I'm marking mobs and people are clearly and blatantly not following it, I let them tank that mob (and die, if it's something hard enough). I call it a moron tax, or stupidity beatings.
#12 Mar 11 2014 at 6:13 AM Rating: Excellent
If it's in the lower lvl dungeon I wonder if the other players see War as an "Spam Overpower" beast
#13 Mar 11 2014 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Valkayree wrote:
Gnu wrote:

Also, there is no viable spec where a PLD can suddenly become on par with DD. Let me tell you, the Marauder DD Spec is a real thing, and the damage they can do is on par with well geared DD, especially for grouped mobs. (Did you know WHM still wins for most AoE damage in a mid-range burst? Even after the Holy nerf. Holy FTW! The sustained AoE damage puts Holy spam higher than double Flare BLM's for a medium-to-long period of time.)


If I Fire III, then swiftcast Flare, I deal 2.5k to everything. That's quite a burst. Not sure if any amount of holy can match that. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are trying to get at.


Oh well off-topic, it's in map parties where I see this most, and we have tried side-by-side testing to verify. Over the course of a 30-45 second battle, you can cast Holy the entire time, plus one Swiftcast to get in one extra at the end of the fight. At around 575 damage, and 750 crits not only does Holy do more sustained damage, it also NEVER misses, because it is self-targeted and the specific mob dying will not interrupt your cast. (That's with 83 WHM gear.)

After Swiftcast is down, Flare takes 4 seconds to cast, and the mana regen time is significant. Now for fights that matter, like T4 and Garuda EX, Flare wins for a small 15-20 second window, there is no doubt. In map parties, where multiple groups of mobs are coming back-to-back, Holy's sustained 575+ every 2.5 seconds ends up with more damage on the board. At least we haven't found any combination of Transpose (?) + Blizzard 2 (3?) > Fire 3 (?) > Fire 2 that can prevent the down-time that inevitably occurs in the Flare cycle from dropping the overall sustained AoE damage below Holy spam. Not to mention sometimes the mob dies and interrupts your Flare cast completely, which any BLM would have to admit happens at least some of the time during a 4 second Flare cast.

Too bad we aren't on the same server. Would be fun to test more.




#14 Mar 11 2014 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If it's in the lower lvl dungeon I wonder if the other players see War as an "Spam Overpower" beast


Isn't that basically what it is?

It's not like it's gonna have enough MP to keep hate through Flash like GLA/PLD can.
#15 Mar 11 2014 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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being a bit more on-topic, I brought up my discontent with the nature of parties lately. I don't think its a difference in tanks, I believe its that the DPS community (which I know is a broad generalization) has pretty figured out that they don't have to adhere to any of the old party mechanics anymore.

In fact, I've noticed a trend in instances at all levels that DPS seem to view it as a mark of skill to make fights as chaotic as possible and survive. Or feel that established party mechanics are too slow. Regardless, the result, seems to be a downgrade in party group quality. At least in my opinion.

I know some tanks don't mind or like that sort of thing, but its totally turned me off tanking.

At least to me, when people are rushing its like that person behind you a line telling you to hurry up. It just annoys me and tenses me up. And the attitude also says that the rest of the party thinks "Hey, I don't have to be good at my job, the Tank will pick up my slack." Which... is just not cool.

That's at least how I see things going. And sadly, I think its because of the competitive nature of DPS to get high damage numbers as opposed to taking pride in being part of a functioning group.

Getting kinda ranty, so I'll cut myself off here and just say, The quality of groups has definitely gone down.
#16 Mar 12 2014 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have felt like that before, and I definitely know where you are coming from. Especially on dungeons that I am still not so familiar with, so unsure of how much I can or should pull. Complicating the matter is that every group is different depending on jobs, player skill, and gear, therefore making every High Level Duty Roulette you join require a different pace. And it is so hard to please everyone all the time; in fact I've pretty much given up on getting commendations anymore on my tank lol.

Jjnnyrr wrote:
And sadly, I think its because of the competitive nature of DPS to get high damage numbers as opposed to taking pride in being part of a functioning group.

To be fair to dps players, though, most dps jobs in this game would be very dull if they didn't have complicated rotations to master in order to maximize their dps output. Being part of a "functioning group" for a dps merely means holding back at the right time. Maybe if SE included more abilities to reduce enmity instead of the current options (Quelling Strikes and "Don't attack so aggressively), it would be better. Like combo trees that lead into buffs where your enmity is reduced for the next two gcds. Anything to make the role more organic, more group focused. (SMN and BRD are okay though due to pet management and utility...I'm referring to the more strictly damage-oriented classes like BLM/MNK/DRG)

If pure dps didn't have to multi-task surviving mechanics and maximizing dps output, the role would be pretty boring to play I think. Just do some 1-2-3 combos, dodge some stuff. Call it a day for a job well done.

Edited, Mar 11th 2014 11:24pm by fatpolomanjr
#17 Mar 12 2014 at 3:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
being a bit more on-topic, I brought up my discontent with the nature of parties lately. I don't think its a difference in tanks, I believe its that the DPS community (which I know is a broad generalization) has pretty figured out that they don't have to adhere to any of the old party mechanics anymore.

In fact, I've noticed a trend in instances at all levels that DPS seem to view it as a mark of skill to make fights as chaotic as possible and survive. Or feel that established party mechanics are too slow. Regardless, the result, seems to be a downgrade in party group quality. At least in my opinion.


I can definitely see where you're coming from, and I agree with you that sometimes you'll get a DPS that's just doing their own thing. But as someone who plays mostly DPS, I'm not sure it's something that happens necessarily because DPS culture is lazy or ignorant.

I think the way most people out-gear the High-Level dungeons (at least on my server) has had a big impact on the way people look at dungeons in general. Not only is it possible to simply AoE/Multi-DoT/ Zerg most of the High-Level dungeons, but it's usually much faster to do so. Pair that shift in philosophy with the fact that it's usually quite difficult for most DPS to pull hate from a competent, equally geared tank during normal dungeon pulls (outside of things like triple flare, which kills most things anyway), and hate management has become mostly a non-factor. That mentality trickles down into Low-Level Roulette and to the leveling dungeons when people are leveling their alts, and sometimes you just forget that you need to slow down.

In that same vein, most of the complaining I hear about DPS in endgame has to do with not doing enough damage -- to the point that you hear stories about people getting kicked over it. And all of that probably feeds into the idea that DPS needs to be all out Pew Pew all the time.

Additionally, the leveling dungeons aren't tuned to be so difficult that they really punish sloppy play. Whether or not that's a good thing will probably depend on who you ask. Just as an example, once, when I was doing Low-Level Roulette on my MNK, I got Cutter's Cry. My tank decided it wasn't a dungeon he wanted to do, and he left before we even started pulling things. Just to get things moving, I offered to pseudo-tank with Fists of Earth, and we started clearing trash mobs. We ended up clearing the dungeon without ever getting another tank. And certainly, to your point, that group was quite organized. But I think it also illustrates that there's really quite a lot of wiggle room when it comes to dungeon content.

But overall, PUGing dungeons tends to remind me of driving a car. Anyone going slower than you can't drive, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac. Anyone running a dungeon slower than you want can't play their class, and anyone going faster is being a jerk.

To the OP's comments about different attitudes toward different Jobs/Classes:

Though I play mostly DPS and can't comment on the WAR vs PLD conversation, people do seem to treat me differently based on the DPS Job I'm playing. When I play SMN or BLM, people tend to use my name and are pretty polite.

When I play DRG or BRD, though, it's entirely different. Instead, people just call me "BRD" or "DRG". They also seem to feel the need to give me a lot more unsolicited advice -- stuff like "MOAR MANA SONG NAO DUM CAT BRD!!!11!1 I'"M ALMOST OOM!!!1!1 92% LEFT!!11" It's pretty interesting to me since I think BRD and DRG are actually my better Jobs.

Edit: For spelling



Edited, Mar 12th 2014 3:17pm by CrazyLegzMcGee
#18 Mar 12 2014 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Maybe the leveling dungeons should have a difficulty slider of some kind for higher rewards that makes you have to, or at least choose to, play as a group.

75+ melee? 80+ Mage? Do you have a summoner? Then you don't need a tank at all for most encounters in pre-40 dungeons. So if the tank is just learning, instead of being in front of the group he's going to be lagging behind people looking to go at a quicker pace. And there is literally nothing holding them back from charging ahead.

The other day in lowbie dungeon the tank, healer and the other DD died, and my 80 drg, level synched to ~24, just sat there and killed/tanked x3 enemies, taking negligible damage. No heals needed. The tank had pulled, but wasn't using flash or provoke, resulting in the healer getting aggro. Dominos fell and the party died. While I was able to see how that happened and why, I think the party was upset with me because I was running ahead the majority of the run. I still stopped at enemies and waited for the tank to pull. But dam. The tank just stands there staring at the enemies an excessive amount of time for EVERY pull, like this is important or difficult. It's not. Maybe it should be, but it's not.

I can see that a great deal of the posters in this thread are frustrated at the lack of patience shown by higher level DD in low-level dungeons. Even though it's not going to be a popular or appreciated sentiment, if you at least understand where the DD are coming from, then their actions are not so quite so villainous.

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 10:03am by Gnu
#19 Mar 12 2014 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know my last post sounds a bit harsh against DDs, and that has to do with my own frustration at the situation. I completely understand any player wanting to go at their own pace.

Crazy's analogy of driving probably fits me to to a tee. I'm not really one that is in a rush, but I try not to just sit and stare either. I kind of sit in the middle.

Also, I think that Speed Runs have helped to contribute to the current state of affairs in dungeons. Not to say Speed Runs are bad. I don't like them personally, but I can totally see the appeal. Blow through a dungeon at top speed and burn away an insane number of mobs with huge damage. Its a way to up the difficulty and make a routine and possibly boring instance crawl better. And if its still boring, its over faster.

And with more HQ gear and materia available, its possible to over gear for an instance even at low level.

I feel as though Gnu may have hit upon the crux of the problem though. Dungeons work primarily as a practice runs for the Endgame stuff, so the difficulty isn't set as high. I remember when the game first came out, everyone was a bit more... measured in their approach to dungeons. But run a few hardmode dungeons, or even suffer through the painful lessons of clearing Titan and going back to Haukke (lvl 28) and it doesn't seem so hard.

Some kind of difficulty setting, kind of like Battle Leves or even just something that sees a player's job levels and can increase mob count or HP or something to keep things in scale.

I would like to to feel like Tanking is relevant, but with the over-geared nature of other roles, it would be better to just add a third DD to most groups to help them clear faster.

Edited, Mar 12th 2014 9:43am by Jjnnyrr
#20 Mar 15 2014 at 3:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is a bit of a derail related to the running tangent here, so apologies in advance, but I can't help feeling this is more related to the age of the content than anything.

I've run the currently available instances literally hundreds of times. Not one or two hundred; we're talking five hundred or more. Like many others, I'm at least a little tired of them, and I don't like dallying. I want to get in, get things done, and get out, preferably as quickly as possible. Finishing in 20 minutes or less thrills me, and tanks are a big part of that. Standing around taking five or ten seconds to mark targets makes me impatient, and it slows down runs considerably.

So no, I am not the sort of person who actively fights group mechanics and deliberately makes things as chaotic as possible, but I do like to be expedient. I go all in, rarely I pull, and sometimes I will ask tanks to mark just their primary target if they're taking half an eternity to mark everything. It's not that I don't understand wanting to take one's time, or that I think tanks are superfluous. I do, and they aren't. It's just nice to not spend an hour in a thirty minute instance, too.

But then, I'm also the sort of tank who chain pulls, and the healer who spends at least as much time DPSing as curing in most situations. I'm sorry it's sometimes frustrating, but there are lots of people out there like me. PFing might be less hit or miss for more laid-back runs; it does have a 'slow and steady' category.

The main topic itself is a complex issue, and I feel relates to many different factors. (Among them: skill, experience, and gear.) There are people who simply don't care, there are those who realize they can (sometimes) go all out and not take aggro, and there are others who don't have the experience to know better. Part of it I think ties in to an aging of content vs an influx of new players or players on new jobs, but overall it's too faceted and I'm too tired to want to explore it now. In short, I hear you, OP.

(For now, though, it's bedtime.)
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