Fair warning, this is going to be very ranty...
Anwho, So... I'm a Tank. I enjoy it so much that 4 of my 8 characters are tanks. Or at least I enjoy leveling it. I don't know what it is, but at Endgame, it seems like all the lessons of the last 49 lvls just go out the window at 50.
I've been running the High Level Dungeon roulette for a week or so lately and more often than not, I'm realizing that I'm taking up a valuable DPS slot in the other players' mindset. They open with AoE's, marking is a waste of time and they're all quite happy with themselves for ripping hate off me. Its like levelling in Sastasha but without the excuse that they're learning. Now they just dont seem to care.
I'm probably becoming a Tanking Diva, but I've never viewed my role as Tank as the Party's shield, I see my role as tactical coordinator. I direct the flow of each battle. And I want each fight to go smoothly. And yet, it feels as though the rest of my parties are just want to put out high damage and play Take Hate From Le Tank. Even healers are playing this little game now. Over-healing and DPS'ing at the same time. Where did all the skill these guys had go? Am I just along to handle boss fights?
I'm pretty much done with High Level dungeons. Its just to frustrating to try and bring order to fights that no one else cares about.
>.>;; Yeah.. its whiney, but its just annoying, I feel like I wasted 50 levels trying to get to the where are the really skilled players are and all I've found are over-geared nublets.
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I think this is just indicative of high level players. And where the community is leveling wise.
As a ilvl78 MNK I can easily pull hate off of a new (usually poor) tank in AK or WP. There are people who are obviously ilvl90. That's 12 levels higher. Get a whole group of ilvl90s and you can see where they are coming from.
However I haven't really seen this happen too much. I personally don't go all AoE unless I know the tank can handle it. And I never attack an off mob (on purpose) and if I do, I try to run back to the tank to him or her to regain hate.
Again I don't see it as a big issue but then again I don't tank and I've only run CT and low level dungeons as a DD for the past couple weeks. It'd be interesting to see if other tanks feel the way you do.
As a ilvl78 MNK I can easily pull hate off of a new (usually poor) tank in AK or WP. There are people who are obviously ilvl90. That's 12 levels higher. Get a whole group of ilvl90s and you can see where they are coming from.
However I haven't really seen this happen too much. I personally don't go all AoE unless I know the tank can handle it. And I never attack an off mob (on purpose) and if I do, I try to run back to the tank to him or her to regain hate.
Again I don't see it as a big issue but then again I don't tank and I've only run CT and low level dungeons as a DD for the past couple weeks. It'd be interesting to see if other tanks feel the way you do.
Well I can't really speak for WAR since mine is only 31. I can tell you, though, that my WAR has excellent AoE threat compared to my PLD. And I'm not going to sell PLD short: if you know what you're doing, you have plenty of tools at your disposal to deal with situations like this.
As a SCH, I find it amusing when a tank lets their guard down just because the two DPS in the group aren't AoE intensive classes. If you think scorn and one flash will hold the attention of a mob over my bane and shadowflare, you're in for a rude awakening.
As a player who does all three roles, I find there are many situations that can be explained if you were to look at it from a different perspectives.
As a healer, I do not need you to keep threat 100% of the time in a high level roulette. I can keep myself alive and everyone in the party without you holding the attention of the mobs. In fact, I could heal 3 DPS just fine in almost all dungeons but never get to do so except rare occasions. It isn't the end of the world if you lose threat on trash mobs.
As a DPS, an i70 tank will never be able to hold threat off of my i90 BLM and i85 MNK. It's simply a gear issue. I can only use quelling strikes every so often on BLM. I cannot use any threat reduction on MNK. I have the tools to survive on both jobs should I pull threat (manawall/ward and featherfoot/second wind). I can also increase healing received to myself and others in case the healer needs to heal me.
As a tank, I have several tools at my disposal that ensure I only lose threat in very specific instances. Those specific instances occur when provoke is down. If you are having difficulties with AoE threat on PLD, you are not alone. Many people find this challenging. However, it isn't hopeless. Try opening with flight > scorn > flash > spirits within any target the DPS are currently focusing. If one mob does run off towards a DPS and your provoke is down, simply shield bash him and that will render him unable to move for 6 seconds. Another shield bash will incur another 3 seconds. You also have an ability called cover that I have seen 2% of the PLD population use....ever. It allows you to be that party member's shield for 12 seconds.
Just don't use provoke. Make sure you follow up with a high-threat attack afterwards. I find shield lob works most of the time.
If you notice your DPS like to AoE a lot, keep to scorn > flash spam while halone combo-ing any mobs you can in between. You won't always have the MP to flash spam so you'll just have to deal with the situation. Either use cover or allow them to tank. The healer should have no problem keeping up.
So far, as a WAR, I just spam overpower a few times and am able to keep up with threat. Does this not work in the end?
Edited, Feb 15th 2014 1:35am by HitomeOfBismarck
As a SCH, I find it amusing when a tank lets their guard down just because the two DPS in the group aren't AoE intensive classes. If you think scorn and one flash will hold the attention of a mob over my bane and shadowflare, you're in for a rude awakening.
As a player who does all three roles, I find there are many situations that can be explained if you were to look at it from a different perspectives.
As a healer, I do not need you to keep threat 100% of the time in a high level roulette. I can keep myself alive and everyone in the party without you holding the attention of the mobs. In fact, I could heal 3 DPS just fine in almost all dungeons but never get to do so except rare occasions. It isn't the end of the world if you lose threat on trash mobs.
As a DPS, an i70 tank will never be able to hold threat off of my i90 BLM and i85 MNK. It's simply a gear issue. I can only use quelling strikes every so often on BLM. I cannot use any threat reduction on MNK. I have the tools to survive on both jobs should I pull threat (manawall/ward and featherfoot/second wind). I can also increase healing received to myself and others in case the healer needs to heal me.
As a tank, I have several tools at my disposal that ensure I only lose threat in very specific instances. Those specific instances occur when provoke is down. If you are having difficulties with AoE threat on PLD, you are not alone. Many people find this challenging. However, it isn't hopeless. Try opening with flight > scorn > flash > spirits within any target the DPS are currently focusing. If one mob does run off towards a DPS and your provoke is down, simply shield bash him and that will render him unable to move for 6 seconds. Another shield bash will incur another 3 seconds. You also have an ability called cover that I have seen 2% of the PLD population use....ever. It allows you to be that party member's shield for 12 seconds.
Just don't use provoke. Make sure you follow up with a high-threat attack afterwards. I find shield lob works most of the time.
If you notice your DPS like to AoE a lot, keep to scorn > flash spam while halone combo-ing any mobs you can in between. You won't always have the MP to flash spam so you'll just have to deal with the situation. Either use cover or allow them to tank. The healer should have no problem keeping up.
So far, as a WAR, I just spam overpower a few times and am able to keep up with threat. Does this not work in the end?
Edited, Feb 15th 2014 1:35am by HitomeOfBismarck
I feel your pain. As a fellow tank(all I was interested in playing) I feel like the importance of our role in a group isn't nearly as pronounced as it should be. I feel it's more a product of the game mechanics than community.
In XI, DPS and heals didn't have the defenses to survive pulling threat off of the tank. It was a lesson learned early and one that stayed with you through endgame. Groups fought mobs much higher level that actually posed a threat. If DPS were impatient and ripped aggro, their healer's MP was exhausted and time was wasted waiting on them to /heal enough back to resume. If healers weren't spreading out their cures and pulled aggro, everyone sat on their hands for the 5 minutes it took weakness to wear off. If a puller was impatient they could pick up links and wipe the group or outpace themselves and ruin an exp chain. Grouping was more dynamic because everyone had to stay on their game or it was clear where the problem was.
For what it's worth I don't think you're whiney at all. Not everyone enjoys tanking enough to know, but what you've said here is probably pretty damn close to how any tank feels.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 1:36am by FilthMcNasty
In XI, DPS and heals didn't have the defenses to survive pulling threat off of the tank. It was a lesson learned early and one that stayed with you through endgame. Groups fought mobs much higher level that actually posed a threat. If DPS were impatient and ripped aggro, their healer's MP was exhausted and time was wasted waiting on them to /heal enough back to resume. If healers weren't spreading out their cures and pulled aggro, everyone sat on their hands for the 5 minutes it took weakness to wear off. If a puller was impatient they could pick up links and wipe the group or outpace themselves and ruin an exp chain. Grouping was more dynamic because everyone had to stay on their game or it was clear where the problem was.
For what it's worth I don't think you're whiney at all. Not everyone enjoys tanking enough to know, but what you've said here is probably pretty damn close to how any tank feels.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 1:36am by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
I am willing to acknowledge it might just be me and that I'm not good enough or that I'm outgeared by the other DPS and that's just the magic of the Duty Finder.
Disregarding that, I still get times when the rest of the party says "This dungeon is easy, don't worry about it," which I guess is a bit of a let down for me, since up until this point, it did matter. And I took a little pride in doing well in my role. It just seems like a lot of people don't really want to bother.
Its not as magically overpowering as it is even at lvl 44. I start off with two or three OPs, but that advantage will usually be used up before the first mob dies and then its a matter of managing the hate, which is usually not an issue.
But its also a matter of alignment. If the DDs fire off or pull first (which happens from time to time) or the Healer times a buff after I Tomahawk and the adds run to them, Overpower won't catch them all. And no one will run back to me to help me grab aggro, so I end up chasing mobs. And then there is the penchant of BRDs to kite, which can make things more hectic.
Basically, its a smooth fight up until after Tomahawk lands.
I"m always hesitant to use Provoke at the start of any fight, because I like to save it for when a DD has built up hate.
I also don't want to sound like I"m picking on non-Tanks, because there are good parties, but they feel like CT drops, I only seem to get them about once a week.
Disregarding that, I still get times when the rest of the party says "This dungeon is easy, don't worry about it," which I guess is a bit of a let down for me, since up until this point, it did matter. And I took a little pride in doing well in my role. It just seems like a lot of people don't really want to bother.
Quote:
So far, as a WAR, I just spam overpower a few times and am able to keep up with threat. Does this not work in the end?
Its not as magically overpowering as it is even at lvl 44. I start off with two or three OPs, but that advantage will usually be used up before the first mob dies and then its a matter of managing the hate, which is usually not an issue.
But its also a matter of alignment. If the DDs fire off or pull first (which happens from time to time) or the Healer times a buff after I Tomahawk and the adds run to them, Overpower won't catch them all. And no one will run back to me to help me grab aggro, so I end up chasing mobs. And then there is the penchant of BRDs to kite, which can make things more hectic.
Basically, its a smooth fight up until after Tomahawk lands.
I"m always hesitant to use Provoke at the start of any fight, because I like to save it for when a DD has built up hate.
I also don't want to sound like I"m picking on non-Tanks, because there are good parties, but they feel like CT drops, I only seem to get them about once a week.
The only thing i'm slightly butthurt about as a tank is joining an instance and finding out the second tank in the party doesnt put in even half the effort that i am putting in.
For instance i was in a CT not too long ago getting my last few myths, my paladin is, outside of my belt and head, a full ilvl90 Paladin. In perspective, that gives me about 6700 HP at the moment.
The other paladin in the group had 3600 HP, and i couldnt help but cringe. Not a single piece of Darklight on him, nothing, some cruddy Grand Company weapon and NQ accessories he should have replaced 20 levels ago. And still he expected everyone to basicly pull him through CT since he apparently hit the ilvl50 requirement somehow. We did, basicly carried him the entire way as his damage was poor, hate keeping was poor, and he wasnt even willing to learn.
It just pisses me off if people play the job i like but dont put in any effort what so ever. I changed to bard right after it was done and happily ate the 45 minute queue for my final 50 points instead :/
For instance i was in a CT not too long ago getting my last few myths, my paladin is, outside of my belt and head, a full ilvl90 Paladin. In perspective, that gives me about 6700 HP at the moment.
The other paladin in the group had 3600 HP, and i couldnt help but cringe. Not a single piece of Darklight on him, nothing, some cruddy Grand Company weapon and NQ accessories he should have replaced 20 levels ago. And still he expected everyone to basicly pull him through CT since he apparently hit the ilvl50 requirement somehow. We did, basicly carried him the entire way as his damage was poor, hate keeping was poor, and he wasnt even willing to learn.
It just pisses me off if people play the job i like but dont put in any effort what so ever. I changed to bard right after it was done and happily ate the 45 minute queue for my final 50 points instead :/
[XI] Surivere of Valefor
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
On that note, I will sympathize with you despite my reasoning above.
I joined a roulette guildhest last week on my WAR. Not the most terribly difficult thing to do, right? But still: you would expect people to use common courtesy.
We entered the hest and within 5 seconds, the DPS had pulled. Could they have tanked it just fine? Yes. Was it rude to not let the tank do my job? Extremely. I just left the hest.
I feel this ties into what Filth has mentioned: trash mobs pose little threat to just about everyone. When I think about it, I think I find dungeons boring because there is very little chance of wiping...even on bosses. I know some don't find wiping fun but most people like to be challenged here and there.
I joined a roulette guildhest last week on my WAR. Not the most terribly difficult thing to do, right? But still: you would expect people to use common courtesy.
We entered the hest and within 5 seconds, the DPS had pulled. Could they have tanked it just fine? Yes. Was it rude to not let the tank do my job? Extremely. I just left the hest.
I feel this ties into what Filth has mentioned: trash mobs pose little threat to just about everyone. When I think about it, I think I find dungeons boring because there is very little chance of wiping...even on bosses. I know some don't find wiping fun but most people like to be challenged here and there.
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I feel this ties into what Filth has mentioned: trash mobs pose little threat to just about everyone. When I think about it, I think I find dungeons boring because there is very little chance of wiping...even on bosses. I know some don't find wiping fun but most people like to be challenged here and there.
I wish this were true. Maybe I could get Pharos Sirius cleared in DF a couple of times then...
Hehe I thought about that instance when I was writing that post.
I think Pharos is one of those dungeons that shouldn't be lumped into what I wrote. :P
At first I wrote: low level dungeons/endgame starting dungeons to make sure Pharos wasn't implied in the blanket statement. After a DF run through Pharos last night on SCH, I thought that most of the trash didn't pose much of a threat. I meant to make 'even on bosses' more of a qualifier than anything.
I do like Pharos and find players are more cautious in this type of dungeon. However, what responses does the playerbase give SE on the OF? "Pharos is too hard; nerf plz" And what does the dev team do? Cave in. They've already mentioned reworking Pharos' difficulty. :(
I will say that Pharos is more of a healing check than anything which may result in failed runs due to healers not being prepared for that type of style of play.
Just not enough dungeons where there is a substantial penalty for pulling over the tank. I'd like to increase difficulty but feel it is impractical. Who knows? Maybe they'll implement extreme dungeons. :P I would honestly prefer difficulty like in WoW heroic dungeons. Most of the mobs in those hit like trucks where only tanks could generally survive.
I think Pharos is one of those dungeons that shouldn't be lumped into what I wrote. :P
At first I wrote: low level dungeons/endgame starting dungeons to make sure Pharos wasn't implied in the blanket statement. After a DF run through Pharos last night on SCH, I thought that most of the trash didn't pose much of a threat. I meant to make 'even on bosses' more of a qualifier than anything.
I do like Pharos and find players are more cautious in this type of dungeon. However, what responses does the playerbase give SE on the OF? "Pharos is too hard; nerf plz" And what does the dev team do? Cave in. They've already mentioned reworking Pharos' difficulty. :(
I will say that Pharos is more of a healing check than anything which may result in failed runs due to healers not being prepared for that type of style of play.
Just not enough dungeons where there is a substantial penalty for pulling over the tank. I'd like to increase difficulty but feel it is impractical. Who knows? Maybe they'll implement extreme dungeons. :P I would honestly prefer difficulty like in WoW heroic dungeons. Most of the mobs in those hit like trucks where only tanks could generally survive.
Pharos is a group play check. You have to play nicely with others in that one.
Went in last night with 2 DPS who vastly outclassed the tank in terms of gear.Which made it hell on earth for me as an i83ish WHM (I have i90 SCH and i79 SMN too). The tank couldn't cope with the DPS output, let alone adds. Made healing a nightmare, far worse than almost anything I've done to date. Add in the DPS being a BLM and SMN who AoE constantly it led me to vote Abandon then leave when apparently I was the only one who thought the wipes we had were acceptable. Yes, I need to do my job too but in this case I really felt the tank didn't have a hope.
Went in last night with 2 DPS who vastly outclassed the tank in terms of gear.Which made it hell on earth for me as an i83ish WHM (I have i90 SCH and i79 SMN too). The tank couldn't cope with the DPS output, let alone adds. Made healing a nightmare, far worse than almost anything I've done to date. Add in the DPS being a BLM and SMN who AoE constantly it led me to vote Abandon then leave when apparently I was the only one who thought the wipes we had were acceptable. Yes, I need to do my job too but in this case I really felt the tank didn't have a hope.
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Its honestly just the play style is much different.
People dont need leaders at level 50, they have run that place 40+ times and know what to do, they need a meat shield to hold down the mobs while they kill it so they can get their tomes and get out.
After you run HM 50+ times you dont need a tactical leader, you want some guy to run in and go:
Flash flash flash flash flash flash out of mp, start the agro comes and rotate targets
Or if a war
Flash flash flash (align the mobs to be in front of you) overwhelm overwhelm start the agro combos.
Honestly i find pld to be FAR better at ae agro than war simply because they can flash 10 times, then do mp combo flash mp combo flash and basically ae agro the whole time. War will either run out of mp or tp depending on the move they use.
The first 49 levels were to get your skills/abilities and figure out how they work, and then 50 is to figure out the best way to do your job in each different instance.
People dont need leaders at level 50, they have run that place 40+ times and know what to do, they need a meat shield to hold down the mobs while they kill it so they can get their tomes and get out.
After you run HM 50+ times you dont need a tactical leader, you want some guy to run in and go:
Flash flash flash flash flash flash out of mp, start the agro comes and rotate targets
Or if a war
Flash flash flash (align the mobs to be in front of you) overwhelm overwhelm start the agro combos.
Honestly i find pld to be FAR better at ae agro than war simply because they can flash 10 times, then do mp combo flash mp combo flash and basically ae agro the whole time. War will either run out of mp or tp depending on the move they use.
The first 49 levels were to get your skills/abilities and figure out how they work, and then 50 is to figure out the best way to do your job in each different instance.
I will give you my experience in Tanking so far, up to Brayflox it has been generally easy going, marking mobs, controlling the temp with the DPS following the markings. This included high level players that were synced and probably from roulette.
Now comes Brayflox, I remember a while back or heard horror stories as tanks had a problem toward the end of the encounter (final boss). In all my runs of the encounter as dps (BRD) I've never encountered any issues completing the dungeon without a problem. This is sitting in the back of my mind as I finish my first run without a problem, group worked together with following markings, sleep rotation and it went off without a hitch.
My 2nd run........ No one says anything when I say good afternoon in the chat
I get 2 BRD dps......
Within the first 2 sets of mobs before the 1st boss I'm noticing that they aren't attacking the mobs in the order I marked and are hitting everything that was pulled, I struggled to maintain control of the 1st two encounters. I came right out and asked in chat is it even worth my time to mark kill order if they aren't going to follow it........ no reply. Okay 1st boss with add's..... I'm thinking let them go crazy on the adds are they are more annoying than a threat. The encounter finishes at a faster rate than my previous run, I'm thinking to myself if they aren't going to follow the order I'm marking I'm going to have to adjust my rotations and mob I pull 1st. Next set of pulls and they are still doing the same thing, at this point I've concluded they didn't want to be there and wanted to finish as soon as possible.
I adjust my rotations and pulling to try and suit their playstyle. I run the rest of the dungeon at an extremely faster pace without marking mobs, larger pulls, the rest of the dungeon went like this with no rest in between pulls as the healer wasn't having MP issues. After we finish the encounter, ** gasp ** the BRD's spoke praising me for doing such a outstanding job during the whole encounter. I finally found out their method to their madness and could quite possible be the same stories I've heard about BRD always ripping hate of tanks. Their reply was we were just adding dot's onto the other mobs pulled to help speed up their untimely death, this was before hate could be established on the whole group of mobs pulled.
Now Jinny don't try and let people who do that type of thing get you down, if you can try to adjust to their playstyle do it and see how it goes. If you would prefer not to than that is your choice, I've only seen up to Brayflox encounters as far as tanking with now seeing a slower pace and a faster pace where things are borderline out of control. Everyone is there for one reason or another, if it isn't going well just tell them its noting going to work with the setup you have. Asked to either be kicked to avoid the penalty for leaving, abandon the duty and everyone goes on their merry way or just leave. Then take a 10 minute break doing something else, and then come back with focus and determination once again.
This is but one experience that sticks out in my mind tanking and I'm sure there will be more like this on my route to 50 and beyond.
Now comes Brayflox, I remember a while back or heard horror stories as tanks had a problem toward the end of the encounter (final boss). In all my runs of the encounter as dps (BRD) I've never encountered any issues completing the dungeon without a problem. This is sitting in the back of my mind as I finish my first run without a problem, group worked together with following markings, sleep rotation and it went off without a hitch.
My 2nd run........ No one says anything when I say good afternoon in the chat
I get 2 BRD dps......
Within the first 2 sets of mobs before the 1st boss I'm noticing that they aren't attacking the mobs in the order I marked and are hitting everything that was pulled, I struggled to maintain control of the 1st two encounters. I came right out and asked in chat is it even worth my time to mark kill order if they aren't going to follow it........ no reply. Okay 1st boss with add's..... I'm thinking let them go crazy on the adds are they are more annoying than a threat. The encounter finishes at a faster rate than my previous run, I'm thinking to myself if they aren't going to follow the order I'm marking I'm going to have to adjust my rotations and mob I pull 1st. Next set of pulls and they are still doing the same thing, at this point I've concluded they didn't want to be there and wanted to finish as soon as possible.
I adjust my rotations and pulling to try and suit their playstyle. I run the rest of the dungeon at an extremely faster pace without marking mobs, larger pulls, the rest of the dungeon went like this with no rest in between pulls as the healer wasn't having MP issues. After we finish the encounter, ** gasp ** the BRD's spoke praising me for doing such a outstanding job during the whole encounter. I finally found out their method to their madness and could quite possible be the same stories I've heard about BRD always ripping hate of tanks. Their reply was we were just adding dot's onto the other mobs pulled to help speed up their untimely death, this was before hate could be established on the whole group of mobs pulled.
Now Jinny don't try and let people who do that type of thing get you down, if you can try to adjust to their playstyle do it and see how it goes. If you would prefer not to than that is your choice, I've only seen up to Brayflox encounters as far as tanking with now seeing a slower pace and a faster pace where things are borderline out of control. Everyone is there for one reason or another, if it isn't going well just tell them its noting going to work with the setup you have. Asked to either be kicked to avoid the penalty for leaving, abandon the duty and everyone goes on their merry way or just leave. Then take a 10 minute break doing something else, and then come back with focus and determination once again.
This is but one experience that sticks out in my mind tanking and I'm sure there will be more like this on my route to 50 and beyond.
FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nghthawk Evenfall
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FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nytehawk Evenfall
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Death is but a doorway,
I'll Be Back
I have mixed feelings on this issue.
Being a SMN main the vast majority of my skills are geared towards dealing sustained AoE damage. If I am restricted to not using AoE abilities things will drag out much longer than they need to. It is not necessarily the case that I am purposely trying to "rip hate" from tanks but rather just trying to push out as much DPS as possible. I can understand the frustration of a tank who has hate ripped off of them, as I am also currently leveling a tank to be my second class.
That being said, AoE damage is no less of a tactical control situation than fighting one mob at a time - as was suggested you just need to adapt your playstyle. It is much more efficient to kill all the things all the time than it is to focus down on one mob then move to the next. So instead of killing things in order and maintaining hate on a specific mob, focus more on your AoE threat skills also. Weave more and more flash into the rotation. Use riot blade more frequently to regain MP. Riot blade + flash spam can be more useful in a multiple mob situation than RoH.
You can still direct the flow of battles and make fights go smoothly, but it is not via kill order. It is now in how large/how many groups to pull, knowing how many mobs you can survive wailing on you with proper timing of your defensive CDs without stressing the healers to the point they can't keep up. There is still a tactical need for a tank to know his role well even in high AoE damaging situations. It is just a different set of skills.
Being a SMN main the vast majority of my skills are geared towards dealing sustained AoE damage. If I am restricted to not using AoE abilities things will drag out much longer than they need to. It is not necessarily the case that I am purposely trying to "rip hate" from tanks but rather just trying to push out as much DPS as possible. I can understand the frustration of a tank who has hate ripped off of them, as I am also currently leveling a tank to be my second class.
That being said, AoE damage is no less of a tactical control situation than fighting one mob at a time - as was suggested you just need to adapt your playstyle. It is much more efficient to kill all the things all the time than it is to focus down on one mob then move to the next. So instead of killing things in order and maintaining hate on a specific mob, focus more on your AoE threat skills also. Weave more and more flash into the rotation. Use riot blade more frequently to regain MP. Riot blade + flash spam can be more useful in a multiple mob situation than RoH.
You can still direct the flow of battles and make fights go smoothly, but it is not via kill order. It is now in how large/how many groups to pull, knowing how many mobs you can survive wailing on you with proper timing of your defensive CDs without stressing the healers to the point they can't keep up. There is still a tactical need for a tank to know his role well even in high AoE damaging situations. It is just a different set of skills.
Just got my zenith on my war relic last night.
War isn't really like paladin. I mark targets like a madman on paladin, because I only have so much mp to spam flash.
As warrior, on normal groups of enemies I set up defiance, I run in, overpower, infuriate, steel cyclone, overpower, and I have enough hate that they arent ripping it from me no matter what I do.
On groups I will then use the maim combo (heavy swing > Maim > Storm's Path) to build back up to infuriate, using overpower for crowd control when needed. Warriors move around more than paladins. Since i use the overpower crowd control, you might as well be aoe'ing as dps. I have enough damage mitigation in foresight, inner beast, blood bath, vengeance and thrill of battle to keep me afloat.
Now when there is a single enemy or a boss (a 'la Titan) I can't use maim or I will lose hate. Overpower is a waste since it is only for one guy and costs a bit to cast. So I tomahawk, then use heavy swing > skull sunder > butcher's block in a combo pattern, building up to an eventual berserk > inner beast > infuriate > inner beast for damage, unless I need inner beast for the 20% damage mitigation on a big move (like everybody's grudge from the Tonberry King in Wanderer's Palace or Titan's Mountain Buster). I just save the inner beast for right up unitl that point I need it, and if necessary combo it with a cd.
I like warrior. You really don't have to slow it down, mark targets, and take things one at a time. Aoe away, and your groups will go a lot faster. I know as blm, when I see a warrior, I use flare a lot more, and aoe sleep is basically useless. Its just how the job is played by most folks.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 8:31am by Valkayree
War isn't really like paladin. I mark targets like a madman on paladin, because I only have so much mp to spam flash.
As warrior, on normal groups of enemies I set up defiance, I run in, overpower, infuriate, steel cyclone, overpower, and I have enough hate that they arent ripping it from me no matter what I do.
On groups I will then use the maim combo (heavy swing > Maim > Storm's Path) to build back up to infuriate, using overpower for crowd control when needed. Warriors move around more than paladins. Since i use the overpower crowd control, you might as well be aoe'ing as dps. I have enough damage mitigation in foresight, inner beast, blood bath, vengeance and thrill of battle to keep me afloat.
Now when there is a single enemy or a boss (a 'la Titan) I can't use maim or I will lose hate. Overpower is a waste since it is only for one guy and costs a bit to cast. So I tomahawk, then use heavy swing > skull sunder > butcher's block in a combo pattern, building up to an eventual berserk > inner beast > infuriate > inner beast for damage, unless I need inner beast for the 20% damage mitigation on a big move (like everybody's grudge from the Tonberry King in Wanderer's Palace or Titan's Mountain Buster). I just save the inner beast for right up unitl that point I need it, and if necessary combo it with a cd.
I like warrior. You really don't have to slow it down, mark targets, and take things one at a time. Aoe away, and your groups will go a lot faster. I know as blm, when I see a warrior, I use flare a lot more, and aoe sleep is basically useless. Its just how the job is played by most folks.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 8:31am by Valkayree
Love your post Valk...hits on a lot of the same things I feel about WAR. Especially stuff like your OP -> Infuriate -> SC -> OP combo. Back when I got Steel Cyclone and pre-patch where you wanted to keep your stacks of Wrath at 5 constantly, I overlooked it and missed out on a lot. Now, anytime I'm in a batch of mobs that have to be burnt down or if I need AoE hate fast, SC has become my best friend :)
And I feel you on the single-target and having to stick with your BB combo, at least for a significant time. Titan (HM) I think I have to wait until just before the heart phase before I'm confident enough on hate to mix stuff in, and that's with spamming the hell out of combos and buffs off the GCD.
Back to the OP...I feel the same way about being the coordinator for the run, and always drove me crazy when people would ignore marks, pull when they were ready and not let me. I've eased down a bit, a lot because it's inevitable it'll happen, but it's also why I love FC runs for anything I'm not doing in a roulette :p
And I feel you on the single-target and having to stick with your BB combo, at least for a significant time. Titan (HM) I think I have to wait until just before the heart phase before I'm confident enough on hate to mix stuff in, and that's with spamming the hell out of combos and buffs off the GCD.
Back to the OP...I feel the same way about being the coordinator for the run, and always drove me crazy when people would ignore marks, pull when they were ready and not let me. I've eased down a bit, a lot because it's inevitable it'll happen, but it's also why I love FC runs for anything I'm not doing in a roulette :p
Leveling up mainly, learning your abilities.
Players that you have just hit level 50 have a great deal of learning to do concerning what different party makeups will be doing to kill mobs.
Do you have a SMN and a BLM in your party? Don't bother marking. These guys are going to AoE and DoT the whole run.
Do you have a BRD and DRG. Sure you can mark, but maybe there is no Sleep. Do you have a WHM or SCH? Maybe WHM will sleep. Then Mark. If not, don't bother. The DRG can Doom Spike (Line-Based multi-target) for huge Damage and the BRD can Burning Circle AoE DoT.
DRG's at i85+ have more DEF than fresh 50-60 tanks. So they're not going to be that worried about pulling hate. Hell the BLM can tank the dungeon. It's totally true.
So yes, one issue is these players have more gear and know some things newer level 50's don't know yet. Also, they have run the dungeon 30+ times, so they feel they have earned the right to play how they want to. It's hard to disagree. After 30 more runs, see how you feel about it yourself.
Secondly, dungeon runs are not the hard stuff. You want a run where coordination is actually important and respected? Get the gear gear ya need and head out to Ultima > Garuda EX > Titan HM/EX etc. or even CT.
Have you done Coil yet? THAT is where the tanks get to be the most important job. Everyone will focus and listen to you. That is, after you have the gear and knowledge to be the leader.
I've seen so many players get to level 50 tank and feel as if the transition to end-game is frustrating. Actually everyone feels that way at first. Maybe if you realize that level 50 is not even close to the highest level in FFXIV, it will help you understand how far you have to go still. Level 75+ is a different story entirely. Level 80+ still different again. Level 85+ is the tier I'm STILL trying to bust into. 82 does not cut it for a 85+ activities, a.k.a. Turn 4.
Level 50 is the Level 1 of End-Game. It's just the end of the tutorial.
Players that you have just hit level 50 have a great deal of learning to do concerning what different party makeups will be doing to kill mobs.
Do you have a SMN and a BLM in your party? Don't bother marking. These guys are going to AoE and DoT the whole run.
Do you have a BRD and DRG. Sure you can mark, but maybe there is no Sleep. Do you have a WHM or SCH? Maybe WHM will sleep. Then Mark. If not, don't bother. The DRG can Doom Spike (Line-Based multi-target) for huge Damage and the BRD can Burning Circle AoE DoT.
DRG's at i85+ have more DEF than fresh 50-60 tanks. So they're not going to be that worried about pulling hate. Hell the BLM can tank the dungeon. It's totally true.
So yes, one issue is these players have more gear and know some things newer level 50's don't know yet. Also, they have run the dungeon 30+ times, so they feel they have earned the right to play how they want to. It's hard to disagree. After 30 more runs, see how you feel about it yourself.
Secondly, dungeon runs are not the hard stuff. You want a run where coordination is actually important and respected? Get the gear gear ya need and head out to Ultima > Garuda EX > Titan HM/EX etc. or even CT.
Have you done Coil yet? THAT is where the tanks get to be the most important job. Everyone will focus and listen to you. That is, after you have the gear and knowledge to be the leader.
I've seen so many players get to level 50 tank and feel as if the transition to end-game is frustrating. Actually everyone feels that way at first. Maybe if you realize that level 50 is not even close to the highest level in FFXIV, it will help you understand how far you have to go still. Level 75+ is a different story entirely. Level 80+ still different again. Level 85+ is the tier I'm STILL trying to bust into. 82 does not cut it for a 85+ activities, a.k.a. Turn 4.
Level 50 is the Level 1 of End-Game. It's just the end of the tutorial.
I remember one particular AK run a while ago. On the second set of mobs (the 3 hippogryphs), I decided to test the waters with AoE. Some tanks easily hold hate through my constant AoE. Others are just on the edge of holding hate. Some can't hold the mobs off me at all. I figure trying it out early on the run when the risk is low is the best time to gauge how I should play.
Either during that fight or immediately after, the tank utters his first words of the run: "I mark the mobs for a reason." Not that he needed to say that. I was pulling hate off of him before I even finished a single rotation, so I already knew I wasn't going to get away with AoE nuking the whole run. In fact, I was tearing hate off of him routinely just with single target nuking.
There's no single correct way to play most of the content in this game, particularly ones that aren't dangerous. Most of the high level roulette becomes less and less challenging the better your gear becomes. I ran Tam-Tara with some friends in my LS and the tank wanted to pull multiple packs of mobs like we were doing a speed run of WP. We didn't have much in the way of AoE damage nor did we have a Sleeper. But we pulled it off, and it at least felt a little more challenging than the usual way to run Tam-Tara.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 12:33pm by svlyons
Either during that fight or immediately after, the tank utters his first words of the run: "I mark the mobs for a reason." Not that he needed to say that. I was pulling hate off of him before I even finished a single rotation, so I already knew I wasn't going to get away with AoE nuking the whole run. In fact, I was tearing hate off of him routinely just with single target nuking.
There's no single correct way to play most of the content in this game, particularly ones that aren't dangerous. Most of the high level roulette becomes less and less challenging the better your gear becomes. I ran Tam-Tara with some friends in my LS and the tank wanted to pull multiple packs of mobs like we were doing a speed run of WP. We didn't have much in the way of AoE damage nor did we have a Sleeper. But we pulled it off, and it at least felt a little more challenging than the usual way to run Tam-Tara.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 12:33pm by svlyons
Jjnnyrr wrote:
Anwho, So... I'm a Tank. I enjoy it so much that 4 of my 8 characters are tanks. Or at least I enjoy leveling it. I don't know what it is, but at Endgame, it seems like all the lessons of the last 49 lvls just go out the window at 50.
I can't help but ask about your choice of having 8 characters. That's a lot! It doesn't sound like each of those is a different job/class, since you said 4 of them are tanks (and there are only 2 tank jobs).
Did you wind up leveling so many characters because you enjoy the experience during the leveling phase more than you enjoy end game? It's hard to tell how much end game experience you have at this point. With 8 characters, I don't imagine you've had much time to do end game stuff and improve your gear set. With better gear (and perhaps some tweaking of your play style), even fights where you have a BLM and BRD AoE'ing everything can still go smoothly with you keeping control of all of the mobs.
dawgdchi wrote:
Love your post Valk...hits on a lot of the same things I feel about WAR. Especially stuff like your OP -> Infuriate -> SC -> OP combo. Back when I got Steel Cyclone and pre-patch where you wanted to keep your stacks of Wrath at 5 constantly, I overlooked it and missed out on a lot. Now, anytime I'm in a batch of mobs that have to be burnt down or if I need AoE hate fast, SC has become my best friend :)
Thanks! Guess that is one of the perks of leveling warrior post buff =)
Gnu wrote:
DRG's at i85+ have more DEF than fresh 50-60 tanks. So they're not going to be that worried about pulling hate. Hell the BLM can tank the dungeon. It's totally true.
Manawall + Manaward = A thing of beauty.
Gnu wrote:
I've seen so many players get to level 50 tank and feel as if the transition to end-game is frustrating. Actually everyone feels that way at first. Maybe if you realize that level 50 is not even close to the highest level in FFXIV, it will help you understand how far you have to go still. Level 75+ is a different story entirely. Level 80+ still different again. Level 85+ is the tier I'm STILL trying to bust into. 82 does not cut it for a 85+ activities, a.k.a. Turn 4.
Make sure he knows that anything you refer to above lvl 50 refers to your combined item level. And yeah, I tanked t4 at ilvl 80 with paladin and either I had a really bad healer or I need to level my whm so I can cross class stoneskin or something. Died to a triple crit on the last set of dreadnaughts. My CD that prevents crits was ... used inappropriately... Tank is the hardest job in the game which is why there are so few willing to do it and they are often in shortage. Healers are also difficult to play, especially endgame healers. Anything with a pet is really hard on a console setup (due to pet micromanagement).
But, like me tanking titan hm for hours on my lv 71 warrior, finally understanding that I could indeed be healed through the busters once I got a decent healer and learned how to properly apply my cooldowns, these things will automatically click at some point the moment you see them, and once that time comes, you will never forget. Its just getting there that is challenging, but that is what makes your accomplishment so much more rewarding.
svlyons wrote:
Either during that fight or immediately after, the tank utters his first words of the run: "I mark the mobs for a reason." Not that he needed to say that. I was pulling hate off of him before I even finished a single rotation, so I already knew I wasn't going to get away with AoE nuking the whole run. In fact, I was tearing hate off of him routinely just with single target nuking.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 12:33pm by svlyons
The tank has to learn enmity to be effective. That a tomahawk or a shield lob will give 3x the enmity of a regular attack. That Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block will hit for 5x enmity and how many times to cast Flash or use Overpower.
I used my favorite line of all time as a lvl 80 paladin once when the blm would consistently point nuke my off target that I had a few flashes on (think it was in haukke hm). I would switch over to his target as my main, re-mark, and he would then target something else. He just wanted the mobs to go over to him to show he was OP I guess. He was geared and didnt take much damage so I didnt mind but when we got to Ash (the second boss) I had to say something.
Hey XXXX (whatever his name was), "Would you mind tanking the boss here, I can get the adds if you like" I got a few rofls and he said "Ok, what the hell" He stopped doing it after that and followed along.
Edited, Feb 14th 2014 12:12pm by Valkayree
Just to piggy back and go off topic a bit...
The irony off all of this is that gameplay without a tank, in certain instances (pun) is just a lot more fun.
FATEs are even more interesting now that they aren't zergfests like they used to be.
I was in a Haukke Manor (regular) last night and the tank has to drop for family reasons. The healer/mnk and I (BRD) were 3 manning it easily until a replacement tank was found.
It was easy, but at the same time quite a bit more skill was needed than just tanking and spanking trash. And again this is only possible with skill and gear...and a little impatience.
Sharing hate, off tanking and mage CCing is just more fun. AoE and actually using BRD songs in a dungeon is just fun, especially if you're moving along nicely in a dungeon and wanting to do these things instead of having to do them.
I'd like to have the option to 3 or 2 man dungeons in the future. Or have new dungeons to cater to this sort of more unorthodox crowd.
The irony off all of this is that gameplay without a tank, in certain instances (pun) is just a lot more fun.
FATEs are even more interesting now that they aren't zergfests like they used to be.
I was in a Haukke Manor (regular) last night and the tank has to drop for family reasons. The healer/mnk and I (BRD) were 3 manning it easily until a replacement tank was found.
It was easy, but at the same time quite a bit more skill was needed than just tanking and spanking trash. And again this is only possible with skill and gear...and a little impatience.
Sharing hate, off tanking and mage CCing is just more fun. AoE and actually using BRD songs in a dungeon is just fun, especially if you're moving along nicely in a dungeon and wanting to do these things instead of having to do them.
I'd like to have the option to 3 or 2 man dungeons in the future. Or have new dungeons to cater to this sort of more unorthodox crowd.
svlyons wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
Anwho, So... I'm a Tank. I enjoy it so much that 4 of my 8 characters are tanks. Or at least I enjoy leveling it. I don't know what it is, but at Endgame, it seems like all the lessons of the last 49 lvls just go out the window at 50.
I can't help but ask about your choice of having 8 characters. That's a lot! It doesn't sound like each of those is a different job/class, since you said 4 of them are tanks (and there are only 2 tank jobs).
Did you wind up leveling so many characters because you enjoy the experience during the leveling phase more than you enjoy end game? It's hard to tell how much end game experience you have at this point. With 8 characters, I don't imagine you've had much time to do end game stuff and improve your gear set. With better gear (and perhaps some tweaking of your play style), even fights where you have a BLM and BRD AoE'ing everything can still go smoothly with you keeping control of all of the mobs.
The two characters in my sig are the highest. I've actually been at Endgame for about 2 months, more or less. First as a PLD, then SCH, and now WAR. At first it was all shiney and new and I assumed a lot of the chaos of fights was just that I had reached a new stage of the game and had some learning to do. But this past week it dawned on me its still chaotic. And all the work I was trying to do was pretty much... "lolnoob".
Vrrynn is an i69 WAR and Vrrelle is an i70 PLD. And its not all of Endgame that I find disappointing. Just the High Level Dungeons, particularly through DF, which I know is a "join at your own risk" sort of venture to start with. I enjoy CT immensely and pretty have relegated myself to that. I don't know why, but I can't succeed at primals... well just Ifrit, 12 fails and I took the hint. Now its just too stressful so I stay away.
I did take note of Valk's suggestions, which are definitely helpful to me. I use Steel Cyclone like a co-dependent lover, but had forgotten about Infuriate, which I should probably try to make room for on my crossbars ;p.
As to the idea that I'll feel like its no big deal after 30+ runs... I've racked up at least 50 runs in WP, and probably 30-ish on the rest (Save Pharos, no one has anything good to say about it). But I've come to hate the Speed Run mentality that is seems to be spreading through DF dungeon runs. I get it, we all want tomes. I want them too, but... I dunno, does it have to be just a mad dash?
As a paladin main i can tell you that being a good paladin isn't just as simple as spamming your 1-2-3 combo and using flash. Clearly paladin can easily hold hate against a single target, but where skill really comes into play is handling bunches of enemies.
The first thing you need to know is what can you handle, and what can the party handle. If your going into a high level dungeon and get hate ripped off you because your under geared compared to the other DPS in the team, let them take the hate they can handle it if there gear is that high. It also isn't hard for a healer to manage the little damage that a few mobs do.
The second thing to know is how to hold hate on large groups of mobs. This can be a bit tricky but even with less gear you can hold hate decently well on maybe not all the mob, but most of them. what I do, is run to the center of the group of mobs i want to pull and cast flash and keep running if theres more mobs i want to pull. Since those mobs are running with you, the DPS shouldn't be able to rip hate off you just yet. Proceed to grab all the mobs you want this way, while using shield lob to grab single targets. Once you have your group of mobs, spam flash on the group about 5-6 times so you have a decent amount of hate on the mobs.
Now here comes the tricky part. What you want to do is to split your main 1-2-3 combo between multiple mobs and NOT just on one mob at a time. The second and third part of your combo generate the most hate, so by switching your targets mid combo you can greatly increase your hate on those mobs. How i manage this is by using my 1-2 combo on the mob the DPS are focusing, and switch targets to use rage of halone on either a different mob a DPS is targeting or any mob you see has taken more damage than the others that you havent done anything to for awile. I like to use spirits within on different targets as well to boost hate on them. Every now and then use flash in between your combos to continue to hold hate on all the mobs. DON'T use shield lob to try and get hate off a target if it runs away, it doesn't give that much hate as compared to a combo. If a mob looses hate, run over to it and combo it and it should turn back to you.
Shield lob is appropriate to use AFTER you provoke a mob since you will most likely be using provoke when a mob is at a distance. Keep in mind though that anything you do before a provoke is a waste since all provoke does it put you at max hate +1. so always make sure your using actions after a provoke to not waste your skills and hate generation. Shield bash is good to use to stun enemies so you have some time to use a combo before the mob continues to eat the face of whoever it's on. Just be cautious though, when handling a large group of mobs every action counts so you need to weigh how important it is to waste an action on shield bash if it wasn't really neccessary.
My last bit of advice is for cooldowns. When you go into a fight against a large group of mobs, depending on how many mobs you fight (generally in WP 8 mobs is considered the most that can be tanked at once safely at i70), you need to be aware of which cooldown skills will benefit you the most. I like to pop a sentinel then a rampart after to ensure that the most damage reduction is applied when the most mobs are alive. Poping both those cooldowns one after another gives you a good 30 seconds of improved damage reduction ans is more than enough time to drop a few of those mobs down to a manageable level. Don't pop all your cooldowns tough or you will be without buffs on the next set of mobs making it signifficantly more difficult.
I want to add one last thing on cooldowns for boss fights. When you know what is going to happen in a fight, it is always a good idea to keep cooldowns and use them during times where the healers are going to get the most stress. For my first example i'll use titan. the best time to use a cooldown is when he does bombs, since right after those bombs your going to get mountain bustered. poping a cooldown will almost guarantee you will survive. Sentinel is great to use here, and if done at the right time (right as the landslide indicators dissapear), you will take reduced damage from the bomb AND the mountain buster. the second mountain buster you don't need cooldowns for because the healers have plenty of time to keep you topped off...unless one healer is down and the other one is in a rock, then i would consider poping a cooldown or hollowed ground. My second example is for ultima hard. Cooldowns are great to use in a few places, but i can't stress enough the importance of saving hollowed ground or sentianl/rampart + convalesence for the second wave of lasers/meteors. the healers here have to dodge lasers preventing them from casting spells, and after the meteors hit they also have to get the party ready for the incoming tank purge a few seconds after. It's not easy to do both keep the tank alive while making sure the party has enough HP to eat a tank purge, while also dodging lasers. Ultima hits hard and defractive laser is a pain in the *** while dealing with all the other crap thats happening at the same time. (i'm only mentioning this because i got ******* out for the tank dying because he didn't have any cooldowns ready for this part of the fight). All this to say that as a tank, you dying is not just on the healer, but on you as well because you are the one with the ability to reduce your damage taken. learn when the best time to use your cooldowns are to ensure the party runs as smoothly as possible.
The first thing you need to know is what can you handle, and what can the party handle. If your going into a high level dungeon and get hate ripped off you because your under geared compared to the other DPS in the team, let them take the hate they can handle it if there gear is that high. It also isn't hard for a healer to manage the little damage that a few mobs do.
The second thing to know is how to hold hate on large groups of mobs. This can be a bit tricky but even with less gear you can hold hate decently well on maybe not all the mob, but most of them. what I do, is run to the center of the group of mobs i want to pull and cast flash and keep running if theres more mobs i want to pull. Since those mobs are running with you, the DPS shouldn't be able to rip hate off you just yet. Proceed to grab all the mobs you want this way, while using shield lob to grab single targets. Once you have your group of mobs, spam flash on the group about 5-6 times so you have a decent amount of hate on the mobs.
Now here comes the tricky part. What you want to do is to split your main 1-2-3 combo between multiple mobs and NOT just on one mob at a time. The second and third part of your combo generate the most hate, so by switching your targets mid combo you can greatly increase your hate on those mobs. How i manage this is by using my 1-2 combo on the mob the DPS are focusing, and switch targets to use rage of halone on either a different mob a DPS is targeting or any mob you see has taken more damage than the others that you havent done anything to for awile. I like to use spirits within on different targets as well to boost hate on them. Every now and then use flash in between your combos to continue to hold hate on all the mobs. DON'T use shield lob to try and get hate off a target if it runs away, it doesn't give that much hate as compared to a combo. If a mob looses hate, run over to it and combo it and it should turn back to you.
Shield lob is appropriate to use AFTER you provoke a mob since you will most likely be using provoke when a mob is at a distance. Keep in mind though that anything you do before a provoke is a waste since all provoke does it put you at max hate +1. so always make sure your using actions after a provoke to not waste your skills and hate generation. Shield bash is good to use to stun enemies so you have some time to use a combo before the mob continues to eat the face of whoever it's on. Just be cautious though, when handling a large group of mobs every action counts so you need to weigh how important it is to waste an action on shield bash if it wasn't really neccessary.
My last bit of advice is for cooldowns. When you go into a fight against a large group of mobs, depending on how many mobs you fight (generally in WP 8 mobs is considered the most that can be tanked at once safely at i70), you need to be aware of which cooldown skills will benefit you the most. I like to pop a sentinel then a rampart after to ensure that the most damage reduction is applied when the most mobs are alive. Poping both those cooldowns one after another gives you a good 30 seconds of improved damage reduction ans is more than enough time to drop a few of those mobs down to a manageable level. Don't pop all your cooldowns tough or you will be without buffs on the next set of mobs making it signifficantly more difficult.
I want to add one last thing on cooldowns for boss fights. When you know what is going to happen in a fight, it is always a good idea to keep cooldowns and use them during times where the healers are going to get the most stress. For my first example i'll use titan. the best time to use a cooldown is when he does bombs, since right after those bombs your going to get mountain bustered. poping a cooldown will almost guarantee you will survive. Sentinel is great to use here, and if done at the right time (right as the landslide indicators dissapear), you will take reduced damage from the bomb AND the mountain buster. the second mountain buster you don't need cooldowns for because the healers have plenty of time to keep you topped off...unless one healer is down and the other one is in a rock, then i would consider poping a cooldown or hollowed ground. My second example is for ultima hard. Cooldowns are great to use in a few places, but i can't stress enough the importance of saving hollowed ground or sentianl/rampart + convalesence for the second wave of lasers/meteors. the healers here have to dodge lasers preventing them from casting spells, and after the meteors hit they also have to get the party ready for the incoming tank purge a few seconds after. It's not easy to do both keep the tank alive while making sure the party has enough HP to eat a tank purge, while also dodging lasers. Ultima hits hard and defractive laser is a pain in the *** while dealing with all the other crap thats happening at the same time. (i'm only mentioning this because i got ******* out for the tank dying because he didn't have any cooldowns ready for this part of the fight). All this to say that as a tank, you dying is not just on the healer, but on you as well because you are the one with the ability to reduce your damage taken. learn when the best time to use your cooldowns are to ensure the party runs as smoothly as possible.
I agree with the above wall o' text, concerning knowing what the party can and can't handle. I know that I can open with a 1200 fire 1 crit on a mob and there is NOTHING you can do about it esp if you happen to crit fire III procs after. Some of the similarly i90 tanks just keep their target and I burn it down in a couple more nukes. The less experienced ones run to me and try to save me, and end up losing hate on the other eventually. (madd cute) As a dps it's my job to not be an mp sink and to do MAX DEEPS. So as long as I'm not opening with flare (which is dumb to begin with), It's usually ok. When I'm on sch I am in cleric 100% of the time and simply use lustrates while i let my pet do all the work.
In regards to mechanics learning for 1-49, pulling threat in Turn 4 and on Garuda EX and Titan Ex is bad(Adds). So all the things you learned aren't wasted. Some tanks can't hold an add for their life. So don't worry too much, you just might prove better, Good luck!
In regards to mechanics learning for 1-49, pulling threat in Turn 4 and on Garuda EX and Titan Ex is bad(Adds). So all the things you learned aren't wasted. Some tanks can't hold an add for their life. So don't worry too much, you just might prove better, Good luck!
GDLYL wrote:
I agree with the above wall o' text
sorry :(
It was a good wall of text. Especially the advice about Ultima. I feel really helpless when I'm playing MNK and see the usual wipe on the 2nd airship phase due to lack of cooldowns used (or hallowed...which is the ideal time to use it). On SCH, you can at least lustrate your tanks if you know defractive is coming up but even then, you have to heal the raid as well. Usually what I do is place my fairy and soil the middle at the same time, fey cov./rouse + whispering dawn right before the airships land, and adlo + prep lustrate for when defractive + ships land. It usually is enough.
But my job is made soooo much easier when a tank pops a big cooldown during that phase.
So, like others have mentioned, maybe tanking is a drag for you in dungeons but once you get into the harder content, it can be extremely rewarding to pull it off properly. My favorite is seeing OT PLDs who will cast stoneskin on the MT to help the healers out. It is something I had never even considered doing until I saw it done. Since then, I've been experimenting with things when OTing like popping cooldowns and then using cover on the MT when I know his cooldowns are down.
Edited, Feb 15th 2014 1:54am by HitomeOfBismarck
But my job is made soooo much easier when a tank pops a big cooldown during that phase.
So, like others have mentioned, maybe tanking is a drag for you in dungeons but once you get into the harder content, it can be extremely rewarding to pull it off properly. My favorite is seeing OT PLDs who will cast stoneskin on the MT to help the healers out. It is something I had never even considered doing until I saw it done. Since then, I've been experimenting with things when OTing like popping cooldowns and then using cover on the MT when I know his cooldowns are down.
Edited, Feb 15th 2014 1:54am by HitomeOfBismarck
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
My favorite is seeing OT PLDs who will cast stoneskin on the MT to help the healers out. It is something I had never even considered doing until I saw it done. Since then, I've been experimenting with things when OTing like popping cooldowns and then using cover on the MT when I know his cooldowns are down.
I mean, it's not like I'm doing anything else between button presses.
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