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Some people prefer to pay (less or more) as they go; others prefer to pay a flat fee once, and then never need to worry about how much they're paying for as long as they're playing.

I definitely fall under the later category. For me, the thought of spending money is often more stressful than actually spending money. That's why I'm at peace with P2P models. You put in your card number, then forget about it until you want to unsubscribe.

So true! I always feel better about saving for single big purchases, rather than buying lots of little stuff.

I still don't understand why you don't just do that for a F2P game, though? That's seriously confusing me.

I mean, I'm the exact same type. I'm fine paying $15 a month to just not have to think about buying experience boosters, medical probes, flashpoint passes, whatever.

But, I mean, I have that option. The option exists, and I take it. I don't get why I should dislike the F2P model.

I mean, having played TOR before and after the F2P transition (and having spent time playing as a F2P and a P2P player since the transition), I can't note any difference in my play experience, at all, in the before/after. I mean, excepting there's more content to access, since time has passed. My experience overall is actually far better, because populations are up which makes group activities much easier to access.

F2P was sort of annoying when I died, because no medical probes, but literally everything else was about the same.

So I just don't understand, to be honest.

[EDIT]

I mean, is the existence of an RMT store really such a deal breaker for you? Because I see literally no difference between an RMT store and something like the digital CE upgrade. Or WoW's RMT store which sells non-combat pets, mounts, and armor skins. Etc.

Frankly, between the housing system and the coming cosmetic system, I'd be absolutely SHOCKED if FFXIV didn't end up with an RMT shop that sold unique skins, P2P and all.

Edited, Feb 10th 2014 6:03pm by idiggory

They are. Analogous doesn't have to be mirror, just comparable in some aspects. Every waiter expects compensation for the service they provide, but there is no guarantee. The fact that there is no guarantee of compensation motivates them to provide excellent service. Much the same way, F2P developers allow players to play for free in hopes that players enjoy their game enough to buy into it.

I've already shown that it's possible to restrict cash shop content solely to aesthetics. I'm not certain why you feel that creating obstacles with shortcuts to bypass them in the cash shop is necessary. It isn't. People are more than willing to pay for things that have nothing at all to do with progression.

Even in XIV, I recall several threads with people asking how they could get their veteran rewards faster. They wanted minions and mounts. Is that an unfair assessment? They were willing to spend more money up front to get their xxx day veteran status so they could get their rewards immediately. If SE had gone the F2P route they could easily have implemented things like this in their cash shop. They're items that have no value outside of aesthetics and there is clearly a demand for them.

I really don't understand why people refuse to accept that there is a middle ground here.

I got the harpsichord too and wasn't even expecting it, I just loved the music from XI that much. A lot of SE's revenues come from things like figurines and toys so they're in the prime position to make that sort of thing happen. Most game companies focus only on games though so it's much easier to sell coded goods rather than contract someone else to create physical goods.

Tidal talisman? Catwho P2W - confirmed

Yes, be sure not to drop any names or people just might actually be able to compare the games.

I hope nobody is so evil as to go there with FFXI. That's a slaughter if there ever was one. But still, for Matsui's sake it is good they have players like Theonehio.

A different mount skin isn't the same as content to me. You can get a mount in game that is just as serviceable as any of the other mounts - you can get multiple mounts, in fact, if you include the unicorn. And they all go as fast as each other.

The argument might have more weight if, say, the couerl mount went any faster, or the new behemoth mount coming out made you invulnerable to attack, or the upcoming Fat Chocobo stored items for you like it did in FFIII.

The little minions aren't content, either.

If different armor skins are content, then different mount skins are content.

Right now, F2P games are thriving by selling cosmetic skins, not by gating their content. Gating content alienates players away from the game, and makes them more meh about it.

Giving them access to the content, thus making them invest enough into the game (emotionally) that they'd want to really make their character theirs (and more unique) by purchasing cosmetic options is what is making games thrive under the F2P model.

I'm going to reiterate that point: Gating play content behind a paywall alienates players, and ultimately diminishes profits due to a lower player population. The real money in a F2P game is the cosmetic purchases, which is why each new F2P game that comes out is increasingly generous with their content, and increasingly broad in their cosmetic offerings.

The game where you need to pay $5 for the new dungeon just doesn't exist anymore in the Western market, because no one likes to feel like they need to pony up cash to have fun. Even things like exp boosters are becoming more of a bonus, and less of a crutch (with TOR being an example of a crutch, and GW2 being an example of a true bonus).

That's just not how the modern F2P model works, because that model doesn't work well.

At the end of the day, the way to make a profitable game is to make RMT content that people want to buy. Forcing people to buy some content just to enjoy the game is a hurdle that vastly culls the population of players.

Just to use an example:

Imagine FFXIV as it is right now, but it was F2P.

There are two ways this could go. They could go the paywall route, where (say) BC was $5 to unlock, the next Primal would be $3, etc.

The population would suck, because you go through the game feeling like the game isn't complete. You feel like you're being sold to, and that isn't fun.

Now imagine FFXIV where all of that stuff is freely available, but there were some cool armor skins, Chocobo Barding, weapon skins, etc. in the RMT shop. You still have the armor skins you earned from the hard fights (and those are the only way to earn those), and your job armor skins are still unique to those in-game quests/purchases, but there are some other cool things, too. Like imagine if the Infantry set look was a purchased skin and had never existed in the game. Some people have blue/red/green chocobos.

These are all things they COULD have purchased from the RMT shop, or they COULD have purchased them off the market (because someone else bought them to sell for some quick gil).

That's typically what the F2P model looks like.

Now, if you're the type of person who is going to froth at the mouth because the only way you can access that stuff is by paying in-game money or real money, then I don't know what to tell you. The F2P model isn't going to work for you, yeah, and I doubt you have much longer where the P2P model is going to, either. The sheer number of non-combat pets and mounts that WoW offered through its store is pretty large, now. I have a couerl mount from my CE, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a FFXIV RMT store soon.

This just shows there are differences of opinion, even among people who prefer P2P models.

For all the reasons I laid out in my earlier post, I think of mounts/skins as content. At the very least, sometimes I prefer the look or music of one mount over another, thus experiencing the game in a different way. At best, the quests/requirements to obtain these trivial things get me involved in other content in the game... and if these things are just RMT'd, then games (and players) are deprived of that content potential.

The drawbacks of the RMT approach could be mostly negated, though, if there were still several cool mounts/skins that you could get through questing/dungeons in the game, so people who disliked F2P wouldn't have to feel pressure to use the cash shop.

I'm ignoring nothing.

I'm simply discussing my own personal experiences. You certainly won't find me experimenting with new games just because they're F2P.

My comments are geared only toward games that have heavy RMT elements, or that strongly incentivize players to use the RMT elements rather than in-game options.

I'm not referring to F2P games that avoid this.

Also,



Again, you and I seem to disagree on the value of certain types of content, which means we will never see eye-to-eye on this issue.


Edited, Feb 11th 2014 10:52am by Thayos

I don't find your "personal experience" with F2P games all that impressive an argument, when the only modern F2P game you seem to have played is GW2 (which uses a completely different economy mechanic than others on the market), and you also seem to be aggressively revising the function there. GW2 has a ton of amazing armor and weapon skins in-game. You're definitely not required to buy anything from the BLTC (via RMT or in-game currency) if your purpose is to look awesome.

I mean, the RMT store in GW2 has 5 unique skins per armor level. The number of in-game skins for each armor level vastly outnumbers those. I mean, VASTLY. Just selecting from non-dungeon, easy to find sets gives you a massive number of customization options.

Yes, there are 5 skins in the game you can't access for your gear without using the RMT system in some way (converting gold to gems or buying gems). But it's just 5 skins.

My problem with your comments geared "only" towards games that heavily incentivize those RMT elements is that those games don't exist in the modern Western market. They just don't.

What you're actually doing is trying to argue against the model by attempting to conflate the modern model with an antiquated notion of what it looks like. You can pretend otherwise, but it's obvious. Why do I know that? Because literally not one person in this entire thread has defended an RMT model that heavily incentivizes the RMT store that way. So you're either just talking to yourself, or you're trying to create an argument through conflation. And I'm not buying it.

You continue to talk around my simple statement that, with my payment, I prefer access to 100 percent of content. The goal isn't looking awesome. The goal is access to all content. You and I clearly have different definitions about what "content" is, which seems to be the source of a lot of our "disagreement."

Also, several people in this thread have made the points I am making. I have also quoted a game designer who shares my concerns. You can't say with a straight face that so many gamers are wary of F2P models because of blind ignorance. The more logical reasoning for our varying opinions is our different experiences and reactions when faced with different types of games.

Also, again, I am not discrediting the F2P model. I have no problems with its existence. I am simply stating what I don't prefer the F2P games I have played. I have played three F2P games (GW1, GW2, EQ2), all set up differently, and didn't like either of them for various reasons. Nothing you say will change the past.

In addition, I don't decide to play new games depending on whether it's P2P or F2P, so I don't really feel the need to focus on the payment models of games that I'm not playing. I do follow MMO news, but I don't obsess over whether games are P2P or F2P. A payment model is just one of many factors.

For that reason, I also don't get why this is such a big issue.

EDIT



That makes much better sense than what I've read elsewhere. Modified above post to reflect this.

EDIT 2

Yes, I know GW1 and GW2 are technically B2P, but the crux of the argument people seem to get entrenched in is whether you should or shouldn't pay a subscription. I see extremely little player-side difference between B2P and F2P (but that's also because I will never buy anything from a cash shop).

Edited, Feb 11th 2014 12:01pm by Thayos