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Haukke Manor HM boss questionFollow

#1 Dec 31 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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So I had an awful DF party there last night. 20+ runs, Ive never failed, and I guess this had to be the first.

2 Bards (both about 4k hp, decent amount of DL, and I70+ weapons)
1 sch (2.7k hp, i45 weapon, mostly af gear, 2-3 pieces of DL jewlery)
1 pld (me) 6.1k, i75 (relic +1, 2i80 from CT, and rest i70)

We struggle our way through the first 2 bosses, dieing 1x each from a bard that cant dodge anything, and a sch who gets one shotted when they dont dodge. Get to last boss, and normally, blasting the adds isnt an issue, but wow. You really learn the mechanics of a fight when you have an under leveled group.

So blood rain was killing the sch every time on the 2 add spawn, (3k dmg, 2.7k hp sch, easy math) because the 2 bards couldn't kill the 2 adds. So i help them kill them, and tell them to just split the dmg on the 2 adds, its much easier to live through 2x 1.5k ae then 1x 3k because the second add was getting eaten at 100%.

We finally get past the two adds, but it took a level 2 tank limit break for the sch to survive. But then the next 3 attempts we keep dieing on the 4th add (the named lady) because my hp is never above 40% and then i get a thunder on me for 3k and die. Mind you no one in the group is above half hp, and sch is sitting at over 50% mp.

Needless to say, we are down to 10 minutes left,
We kill the solo add, we kill the twin adds (tank lb so sch can live), we finally kill the named add.
We are 'burning' the named down and she is at 5% and she sucks in a brd then does a 6k blood rain, and we all die.

How do you counter that blood rain when they suck in a 4k hp dd? Every other mechanic we found a way to do with a crap DD group and a sch that doesnt heal. Is it just like an enrage check, where if the fight goes too long you get killed?

Do you actually stop her from getting buffs if you kill fast enough? I ask because even on the solo add, when it hits 0% hp she was auto sucking it in, getting the buffs, then doing a weak blood rain (like 500 dmg instead of 3k it does when the mob is full hp). I am at work or id run it again to check this one, was just curious, cause it looked like to me that no matter what she was getting buffed. And i cant tell if this was just casue we had 2 so-so bards, or if it happens every time.
#2 Dec 31 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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The pull-in/kill/bloodrain called "Final Allure" happens after the third Beguiling Mist. It's basicly a DPS-race once the last Succusbus pop is dealt with. If you cant put out the required amount of damage quickly enough, she wipes you. That's all there's to it.

Hence why i never understood why the minimum requirement is ilvl48 for this dungeon. Whenever someone shows up in a Grand Company weapon and/or AF gear, the run is usually over already.
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#3 Dec 31 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Okay thats what I thought, the only other thing would be a lvl 2 tank lb, but if you are using it to survive the 3k blood rain at the 2 adds, its barely 1 bar at that time, so nothing you can do.
#4 Dec 31 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Things that have helped me with this and under geared people are the "V". The eye spawns in top right area and casts stoneskin fairly quickly upon its spawn. The two adds spawn near the entry point and are stunnable. Lady Amandine (sp?) spawns in the northleft corner (also stunnable). This forms the V.

If you move her to the Add spawn locations before they pop, you can put good DPS on the adds as well, and after the eye, you can't stun her anymore, so if threat isn't an issue you can focus on the adds and help out. That has made the difference in some of my runs.

Edited, Dec 31st 2013 3:45pm by desmar
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#5 Dec 31 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing I've heard is that if you use a LB during the last phase (or maybe any other phase) that it forces the boss to move her rotation up a step, making that final blood rain come sooner.

Either way, I was in the same boat and didn't beat the last boss either because of a lack of damage.

I would love to see a group of ilvl48s pull it off.
#6 Dec 31 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not i48, so I can't say definitively, but I feel this may be more of a player issue than a gear issue. My friends and I tend to run parsers, and I consistently out-damage DD with better gear than I have by 50 dps or more... Just because people are doing it wrong. I can't count the number of times I've seen dragoons who don't combo and monks who don't move, for instance. Bard is typically a little more forgiving, but it's still lacking a win button. No DD should pull under 100 dps by 50, but I've seen egis do more damage than some players.

Still, bad times; sorry you had to endure it. It might be possible to pass with mediocre gear though, depending on people and comp. Might have to whip out GC gear and try!

Edited, Dec 31st 2013 10:47pm by Kouren
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#7 Jan 01 2014 at 8:30 AM Rating: Default
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/133797-Haukke-Manor-%28Hard%29-too-low-minimum-ilvl-requirement-for-the-amount-of-DPS-needed.
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#8 Jan 01 2014 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
I hate to say it, but a low level group could probably beat her with strategy.

How to survive Final Allure? Intentionally stand in her AOE spells and get everyone's HP down to triple digits. Stop healing the tank when Allure is coming up (its on a timer) and let his HP drop also.

As soon as she singles out who to eat and starts charging Blood Rain, everyone else spam cures including using potions to get their HP back up. If the victim is eaten at <1000HP, everyone else should survive. Finish beating her down.

That's unless her Final move, for whatever reason, doesn't go off the HP% of her victim like the others and just always does a flat 9k+ damage. Obviously I don't think anyone has ever tried this strat, so I wouldn't know.
#9 Jan 01 2014 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is with the DPS check which SE seems to have a hardon for. Not every fight should have one, and it shouldnt be up to the dps alone to determine a wipe or success. If the tank and healer is stron enough, why cant they carry the team like a dps could. Of course healers and tanks have their own version of a gear check, its not nearly as unforgiving as it is for DPS.

In ff11 there was no bosses where you had to put out a ton of DPS to win, and it helped lesser geared players experience content. People didnt usually condemn people as much as they do in ff14. The only drawback in ff11 was that you had to deal with the fight mechanics for a longer period of time. I dont think that was an unreasonable way of handling things since some fights were hard even without DPS checks. i can even argue ff14 is much harder than ff11 ever was because of how ff14 works. Because of this, i find DPS checks an uneccesary evil.
#10 Jan 01 2014 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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Not exactly a fan of DPS checks, either. Unfortunately, even if you change an outright "Game Over" to one you'll more gradually face if DPS isn't high enough, it could still be argued a check if healer resources also can't be maintained indefinitely through skilled play. But in general, a more gradual approach should be more friendly to the learning process. There's also the event timer serving as an overall cap, which I'm sure we've had something somewhere during our play where it's hit 0 and we've just felt kinda blah about it.

Without this, difficulty would likely need to rely more on mechanics, but this then introduces potential hassles with complexity and lag. Being a caster sucks when you have to move a lot. Being a melee sucks when the mob is all over the place. Being a tank sucks when you have to handle numerous adds and the attacks of the big boss itself. There's really no easy solution, but I do agree some of the DPS checks are a bit too tight or out of line with suggested ilvl requirements. Perhaps an alternative to punishing harshly would instead be to up rewards at the end, but I realize this will also fuel the negative aspects of the community when it comes to setting up groups or PUG expectations.
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#11 Jan 01 2014 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
The problem is with the DPS check which SE seems to have a hardon for. Not every fight should have one, and it shouldnt be up to the dps alone to determine a wipe or success. If the tank and healer is stron enough, why cant they carry the team like a dps could. Of course healers and tanks have their own version of a gear check, its not nearly as unforgiving as it is for DPS.

In ff11 there was no bosses where you had to put out a ton of DPS to win, and it helped lesser geared players experience content. People didnt usually condemn people as much as they do in ff14. The only drawback in ff11 was that you had to deal with the fight mechanics for a longer period of time. I dont think that was an unreasonable way of handling things since some fights were hard even without DPS checks. i can even argue ff14 is much harder than ff11 ever was because of how ff14 works. Because of this, i find DPS checks an uneccesary evil.


If you (collective) fail at DPS checks, then you fail at performing at an adequate level for that class/job. They exist solely to ensure you can play at an absolute bare minimum, and so others aren't carrying you.
#12 Jan 02 2014 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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While that might be true if the ilevel for HM manor was i70, but its not, its like i48. So if an i48 group cannot meet the dps check it is eihter too hard for i48 and needs to be nerfed, or they need to increase the ilevel to something more reasonable.

#13 Jan 02 2014 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah this fight sucks, I just got it with a fairly well geared group (mostly AF+1, glowy weapons, etc). My iLevel is 58, I have the DL body, AF everything else, Astral accesories, and an http://xivdb.com/?item/2051/Alkalurops.

We could NOT beat this fight to save our lives. I'm not sure who was at fault, the BRD was keeping my MP up until right after Amadine spawned, then turned that off, the BLM was having issues avoiding the targetted AOE at times, but we managed to kill Amadine each time and then she starts spamming the final move and usually I would drop first and the rest would follow. She cast it several times on us as well. Am I correct in assuming Blood Rain doesn't fire if you kill the adds fast enough? It could be we weren't killing quickly enough then.

I parsed the fights, the last one which we got the furthest on the BRD was 161 and the BLM 181. No idea what those numbers mean though Smiley: laugh
#14 Jan 02 2014 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Yeah this fight sucks, I just got it with a fairly well geared group (mostly AF+1, glowy weapons, etc). My iLevel is 58, I have the DL body, AF everything else, Astral accesories, and an http://xivdb.com/?item/2051/Alkalurops.

We could NOT beat this fight to save our lives. I'm not sure who was at fault, the BRD was keeping my MP up until right after Amadine spawned, then turned that off, the BLM was having issues avoiding the targetted AOE at times, but we managed to kill Amadine each time and then she starts spamming the final move and usually I would drop first and the rest would follow. She cast it several times on us as well. Am I correct in assuming Blood Rain doesn't fire if you kill the adds fast enough? It could be we weren't killing quickly enough then.

I parsed the fights, the last one which we got the furthest on the BRD was 161 and the BLM 181. No idea what those numbers mean though Smiley: laugh

Blood Rain always goes off. And the adds cannot be properly killed, just brought down to 0%. The boss will absorb the adds, use the amount of HP they have left to boost her own HP Value, and uses that amount to increase her Blood Rain damage. That said, Blood Rain still has a base damage of roughly 500 points of damage depending on Magic Defense. If she absorbed an eye with 2000 HP left, you're in for trouble if you're a mage. But if she absorbs a "dead" add, very little will change and you should survive her blood rains quite easily.

Still, Beguiling Mist and her eventual Final Allure on a player are the real killers in that fight :/
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#15 Jan 02 2014 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Beguiling Mists is easy to 'evade' if your party spreads out. Only one of your party should ever get hit by the Fire IV if done right.

Final Allure is a DPS check, sadly. I can't give any tips on how to manage it because my groups are usually over-geared. It may be a matter where you have to save your single limit break for the boss instead of Amadine, and just be prepared to take the one hard hit from her in order to finish the fight.

Keeping DoTs on her is essential, all players at all times need to keep their dots on her in order to down her before she 'rages', as we call it, as it will help you deal damage even as she's hitting everyone with Beguiling Mists.

I'm not looking forward to doing this on my Arcanist, and I might hold off to get some Darklight pieces first.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2014 4:12pm by Hyrist
#16 Jan 02 2014 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, I may not try the High level DF again until I have a few more DL pieces. I'm sure the right group could do it with me geared as I am, but I'd rather not be the reason we fail Smiley: tongue
#17 Jan 02 2014 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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How long did the fight attempts take Wint?
#18 Jan 02 2014 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Less than 10 min each I think. We died a couple of times through the dungeon before her, and tried 4-5 times and quit with 7 min left.
#19 Jan 02 2014 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh...

If that's closer to 10 minutes than 5, then yes, it's definitely really low DPS, especially if they are using relics, zenith versions or not. There's not too much you can do about that. BLM and BRD gurus (of which I am neither) could probably figure out why from the parse.
#20 Jan 02 2014 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even factoring in movement, that number feels a bit low for a decently geared BLM. I wouldn't put much stock in Thunder from BLM as a DoT, either. It's a relatively underpowered ability at the moment and I'm hoping since they removed it as a cross-class option, it'll see some buffs. If you do cast it, it should be in the UI phase while waiting on the 2nd MP tick, but a Fire crit is likely to match or exceed T3's total damage instantly short of lucky TS procs. Overall, one shouldn't be in UI for more than 2-3 GCDs while hopefully they're geared enough to get 5-6 F1s before hopping back. And of course, use B3 and F3 to toggle between modes instead of Transpose.

Could maybe see the BRD DPS hurting if they kept songs up during adds, but I'm not a pro there, either.
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#21 Jan 02 2014 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Finally beat this fight. DPS was the key.

It was like night and day. At the time I was about ilvl72 and I'm pretty sure the rest of the group was about the same. I would assume that there is some more strategic version for lower levels but...I don't think there is.

-----

One thing I did notice (for all of the new dungeons) is that DPS especially melee, needs to be very, very active in order to win.





#22 Jan 03 2014 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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So there is a way around it, and it is a lot harder.

1) Either tank limit break the blood rain (only works once)
2) make sure everyone is sub 1k hp when she does fatal allure (healer needs to stop healing/people need to gather together for the 3rd charm so they all get hit by fire ae.)
#23 Jan 03 2014 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
In ff11 there was no bosses where you had to put out a ton of DPS to win


Dynamis Lord* in Xarcabard at level 75 might disagree with you. Smiley: dubious

XI also had better mechanics for providing a quick DPS boost to ordinary melee, though. The DPS requirements in XI were not solely on the individual player's gear, but also how well they were supported during the fight. Even the most well geared and tricked out DPS required the support of multiple bards, red mages, corsairs, white mages and even other DPS to reach maximum damage potential during the DPS check fights like Dyna Lord. 18-36 players had to work in pretty close coordination to take him down.

We don't have anything quite on that scale in XIV yet.

(For the non-XI players: Failure to kill Dynamis Lord in one minute caused him to split into copies. Failure to kill Dynamis Lord in two minutes meant that the THF that had sacced the dragons was probably dead and they were coming back to eat you. You pretty much had a little over two minutes to output 100,000 HP of damage or it was over.)
#24 Jan 03 2014 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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To this day, I feel like XI players never really discovered the right way to do DL. CS Stun zerging was effective, yes, but I just can't bring myself to believe that was the trick. Though knowing Tanaka, it was probably designed with having 64 people present in mind with no actual 64-man testing.
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#25 Jan 03 2014 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
My understanding that even a group with 64 people in it could lose, because with that many character models around targeting became a nightmare and everyone lagged.

A double alliance was the sweet spot. One melee and tank alliance with a bard rotation on the ground, and one alliance up on top of the cliff, within casting range but out of AOE range.

Bard rotations came back into favor last year, actually, with Seekers of Adoulin. Then people got all picky and started demanding 3-4 song only bards, much to my dismay (I had a relic, not an Empyrean!) SE responded by giving bard a new 1-hour (they shortened the timer on 2 hours) that allowed them to cast a third song. So everyone was now a 3-5 song bard. And it was good.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2014 7:36pm by Catwho
#26 Jan 03 2014 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
To this day, I feel like XI players never really discovered the right way to do DL. CS Stun zerging was effective, yes, but I just can't bring myself to believe that was the trick. Though knowing Tanaka, it was probably designed with having 64 people present in mind with no actual 64-man testing.

As much as people complain about boss fight mechanics and gimmicks in XIV, I'm glad it's not Absolute Virtue.
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