Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Classes/Jobs on ReleaseFollow

#1 Jan 21 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
179 posts
Frankly I'm quite depressed with the lack of Thief and Red Mage. These have been staple classes since the first FF what the **** why aren't they going to be playable in FFXIV on release :(
____________________________
Server: Ultros
IGN: Cilia Maroth
Linkshell: Karma Zameleons
#2 Jan 21 2013 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,361 posts
Dunno.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#3 Jan 21 2013 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
They had too many things to fix already, they didn't need to try and add jobs/gear/etc on top of it. They're adding the classic job of Summoner for the re-release, I'm sure something equally nostalgic will be coming down the pipe with the first expansion (assuming we make it that far.)
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#4 Jan 21 2013 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,309 posts
RDM is currently wallowing in the pits of "nobody wants me" over in XI. They may be concerned about that happening in XIV, too.

Funny, because at one point RDM was one of the most popular jobs and everyone wanted it leveled. These days, though, it's just not specialized enough, and the one thing it is really good at (enfeebles) is pointless for the majority of endgame fights.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#5 Jan 21 2013 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
catwho wrote:
RDM is currently wallowing in the pits of "nobody wants me" over in XI. They may be concerned about that happening in XIV, too.

Funny, because at one point RDM was one of the most popular jobs and everyone wanted it leveled. These days, though, it's just not specialized enough, and the one thing it is really good at (enfeebles) is pointless for the majority of endgame fights.


This surprises me. I quit in 2010 and my god, RDM and BRD were virtually required to even AFK... Weird to hear that they've gone by the wayside.

There will always be a flavor of the month job, and with something like 40 different jobs over it's lifetime the series isn't hurting for material. And c'mon, we all know the next Class released totally needs to be Bacon Mage with a Sausage Sage Job.
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#6 Jan 21 2013 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
In FFXI, Red Mage shared a lot of abilities with a lot of other jobs. You had mediocre healing and nuking spells compared to WHM and BLM respectively, and by the end S-E pigeonholed them into a refresh mage.

FFXIV your weapon is tied to your class, Gladiator uses Swords. The classes are versatile in you can equip various spells on your person anyway. So you could create a RDM in theory out of equipped abilities for your GLA.

Pugilist was originally going to get Steal and it was in FFXIV 1.0's DAT files. However, with the revamp of the game, the classes and jobs were too revamped and Pugilist became a magic meleer for the time being. I imagine Steal will be in a future class/job. Don't count it out! But given that XIV 1.0's melee abilities all required positioning, THF wouldn't exist, at least how we knew it in FFXI's flavor.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#7 Jan 21 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
I have this image in my head of THF in ARR doing a special WS where it slashes the mob several times in a streaking motion, and you have to actually guide it through the process of going back, forth, and around the mob to deal maximum damage. It seems way cooler in my head than it does when I read it out loud...
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#8 Jan 21 2013 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,530 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
I have this image in my head of THF in ARR doing a special WS where it slashes the mob several times in a streaking motion, and you have to actually guide it through the process of going back, forth, and around the mob to deal maximum damage. It seems way cooler in my head than it does when I read it out loud...


I dunno... I think it seems kind of neat even when read out loud. Though at the same time we'll certainly end up with something more along the lines of "hit a number key and watch the pretty particle effects" -- especially since not even gathering has any noteworthy interactivity anymore. Smiley: wink
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#9 Jan 21 2013 at 11:40 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
19 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
I have this image in my head of THF in ARR doing a special WS where it slashes the mob several times in a streaking motion, and you have to actually guide it through the process of going back, forth, and around the mob to deal maximum damage. It seems way cooler in my head than it does when I read it out loud...


Port the game to Wii and you could use the Wiimote!!Smiley: lol
____________________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
#10 Jan 21 2013 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
I would like THF's abilities to have some kind of press a button at the right moment - ala Legend of Dragoon for weapon skills. That would be interesting, but unfortunately I wouldn't think it would work in an MMO given lag and latency.

Always cool to dream, though.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#11 Jan 22 2013 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Pretty sure it can be done. You just set up a generic check to send to the server and the actual timing mechanism goes on the client end. That would solve the latency issue; but any kind of timing element is going to be affected by lag. You'd just have to turn down your settings, get an upgrade, or pick a different job :P
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#12 Jan 22 2013 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,309 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
catwho wrote:
RDM is currently wallowing in the pits of "nobody wants me" over in XI. They may be concerned about that happening in XIV, too.

Funny, because at one point RDM was one of the most popular jobs and everyone wanted it leveled. These days, though, it's just not specialized enough, and the one thing it is really good at (enfeebles) is pointless for the majority of endgame fights.


This surprises me. I quit in 2010 and my god, RDM and BRD were virtually required to even AFK... Weird to hear that they've gone by the wayside.

There will always be a flavor of the month job, and with something like 40 different jobs over it's lifetime the series isn't hurting for material. And c'mon, we all know the next Class released totally needs to be Bacon Mage with a Sausage Sage Job.


Even BRD is a boutique job now. I'm a relic BRD and half the time when I'm trying to join a pickup alliance I get asked to come BLM instead.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#13 Jan 22 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,572 posts
Bludot wrote:
Frankly I'm quite depressed with the lack of Thief and Red Mage. These have been staple classes since the first FF what the **** why aren't they going to be playable in FFXIV on release :(


The exact reason:

Yoshi-P stated that they thought of adding new classes but they decided to fix everything first. The only reason Arcanist/Summoner and possibly Musketeer are being added right now is that they are already in the game in some form, so there is less development needed.
____________________________


#14 Jan 22 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
179 posts
I had gone back to FFXI at the end of Nov last year, the first classes I leveled were RDM/BLM, THF/NIN. I have had no issues with people saying these don't work. So I'm a little confused why RDM and THF aren't going to FFXIV. I have read all the posts it just seems like they slacked off personally.

I still don't think these two would have needed much development, but I did stop playing FFXIV after 2 weeks of it being released and was essentially unplayable.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2013 3:04pm by Bludot
____________________________
Server: Ultros
IGN: Cilia Maroth
Linkshell: Karma Zameleons
#15 Jan 22 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,604 posts
Bludot wrote:
I had gone back to FFXI at the end of Nov last year, the first classes I leveled were RDM/BLM, THF/NIN. I have had no issues with people saying these don't work. So I'm a little confused why RDM and THF aren't going to FFXIV. I have read all the posts it just seems like they slacked off personally.

I still don't think these two would have needed much development, but I did stop playing FFXIV after 2 weeks of it being released and was essentially unplayable.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2013 3:04pm by Bludot


Don't worry about FFXIV having direct analogues back to FFXI.

For further reference, not every FF game has included a Red Mage (for example). And there's no rule that says it has to.

About the only things Final Fantasy is required by law to have are chocobos and Cid.

I fully agree with the notion of fixing the game first and THEN adding more cool stuff to it. Make it worth playing first and foremost before adding more things. Time for that later.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#16 Jan 22 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
About the only things Final Fantasy is required by law to have are chocobos and Cid.


Ironically, Final Fantasy is the only violator of that law. Smiley: lol
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#17 Jan 22 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Yeah, it's required to have crystals though. Can't forget the crystals. And a vague presence of the classic classes.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Jan 22 2013 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,361 posts
Eventually this list of requirements grows as every fan of the genre add the thing they require most to make it a FF. Eventually they all end up hating it.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#20 Jan 22 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
RDM other than the awesome AF, never really appealed to me to play.

THF on the other hand was really awesome. AF was kinda meh, but as a class, pulling, putting up big burst numbers to help with enmity was really cool and made you feel a part of the group...that is, when groups realized what you could do.

So yeah I'd like to see a THF type class and hopefully, eventually, an expansion with a NIN or SAM or something with a katana and wakazashi.

#21 Jan 22 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Wint wrote:
Eventually this list of requirements grows as every fan of the genre add the thing they require most to make it a FF. Eventually they all end up hating it.


What? Airships, Chocobos, Moogles, Crystals, Summons... I never get sick of that **** I don't see the list growing that much... a good portion of the list includes things that are in 50% of the games already.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#22 Jan 22 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,309 posts
Don't forget the multiple levels of bad guys: The familiar enemy (frenemy?), the tragic enemy, and the epic godlike enemy. Seymour is probably the creepiest frenemy type since you kill him once and he comes back as a **** zombie on you. And don't get me started on Kefka...
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#23 Jan 22 2013 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
556 posts
I hope they add more classic bosses like they are with Xandes. I can so see Kefka working and manipulating the Garlean Empire!
____________________________
Jayy Submor-Hyperion-Slash Flex
#24 Jan 23 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
931 posts
I don't necessarily think they need to add RDM asap but no thief is strange indeed.
____________________________
MUTED
#25 Jan 23 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
19 posts
Rediculously powerful Weapons (ruby, emerald, ultima, omega)(hell I want em all) pls
and make it so you need an alliance or at least a full party to contend.
____________________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
#26 Jan 24 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
90 posts
My understanding is that Genbu finally got his revenge, and removed rdm's from all future FF's


(Haven't played FFXI in a few years, hope thats still as funny as it was back then)
#27 Jan 24 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,235 posts
catwho wrote:
Don't forget the multiple levels of bad guys: The familiar enemy (frenemy?), the tragic enemy, and the epic godlike enemy. Seymour is probably the creepiest frenemy type since you kill him once and he comes back as a **** zombie on you. And don't get me started on Kefka...


You know I've often wondered if a random "HQ encounter" would spice things up a bit. It would be something or someone like a Seymour who has it out for you and can do a surprise take over of your event. Like say you were jumping into a standard guildleve and instead you get attacked by Seymour's henchmen. Or you're off to fight Garuda and you find Seymour who already killed her and fights you instead.

Of course winning the challenge has its share of cash and prizes, and bragging rights around the virtual water cooler.

But part of me thinks people would just get angry they didn't get the fight they wanted.
#28 Jan 24 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
19 posts
That would be an awesome experience in my book what better
way to make you hate your archenemy than for them to slay
a mob that drops something you want. Yes it would be an inconvenience
but it would give you those "YOU BASTARD" moments and imo
as long as it was not a "frequent" occurance and you had the option
of redoing the leve with a drastically lowered or zilch chance of
encounter to allow you to fight the mob you were after then it would be
cool and add some life and emersion to the game especially if it were a
randomly generated model to give some uniqueness.

Maybe even to the point that even the entire party you were with
Would have a chance at encountering them as you would
Have a chance to encounter theirs , however that may become
very problematic as I can see so might it just be a better option
to restricta chance of encounter to solo leves then it would also
present a bonus to swapping up the ol routine of partying if
the party concept and bonuses actually pan out that is.
____________________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
#29 Jan 24 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Xoie wrote:
You know I've often wondered if a random "HQ encounter" would spice things up a bit. It would be something or someone like a Seymour who has it out for you and can do a surprise take over of your event. Like say you were jumping into a standard guildleve and instead you get attacked by Seymour's henchmen. Or you're off to fight Garuda and you find Seymour who already killed her and fights you instead.

Of course winning the challenge has its share of cash and prizes, and bragging rights around the virtual water cooler.

But part of me thinks people would just get angry they didn't get the fight they wanted.


That's one of the best ideas I've ever heard.

Also, while people may complain, as long as a game is good, people will put up with any amount of trouble. Look at Dark Souls; looks at Elder Scrolls / Fallout; look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R.; look at Final Fantasy XI. If the game is worth playing, people will stick around for a long time, showing no small amount of dedication -- and the kind of surprise events like you suggest would become part of the FFXIV culture in the best possible way.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#30 Jan 24 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
***
2,232 posts
Yeah i really like that idea too. Somebody get on that :)
____________________________
Character: Urzol Thrush
Server: Ultros
FC: The Kraken Club

Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#31 Jan 24 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
You know I've often wondered if a random "HQ encounter" would spice things up a bit. It would be something or someone like a Seymour who has it out for you and can do a surprise take over of your event. Like say you were jumping into a standard guildleve and instead you get attacked by Seymour's henchmen. Or you're off to fight Garuda and you find Seymour who already killed her and fights you instead.

Of course winning the challenge has its share of cash and prizes, and bragging rights around the virtual water cooler.

But part of me thinks people would just get angry they didn't get the fight they wanted.


That's one of the best ideas I've ever heard.

Also, while people may complain, as long as a game is good, people will put up with any amount of trouble. Look at Dark Souls; looks at Elder Scrolls / Fallout; look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R.; look at Final Fantasy XI. If the game is worth playing, people will stick around for a long time, showing no small amount of dedication -- and the kind of surprise events like you suggest would become part of the FFXIV culture in the best possible way.


I agree that it's a great idea, but Xoie is spot on with his(?) concerns that players might grow to resent the mechanic. As with any good idea or premise, it's the execution that really matters. It would be incredibly easy for a designer to thoughtlessly turn this into a feature that either ends up being an unwelcome interruption to the player's activities, or even more likely, to be such a desirable event that players end up pursuing it intentionally.

The key to what makes this idea great, like so many others, is that it comes as a cool surprise. But it's easy to imagine something as a cool surprise without regard for the context of the player's experience. If the reward is too great or desirable, then players will seek it out and expect to find it... then it's not so surprising at all when you do. Particularly if this becomes the impetus for them doing something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, let's say guildleves, then that one cool element comes at the expense of motivating the player to do things that they don't enjoy for the sake of the reward. That's not necessarily a good thing. Now, the "player" is just working for the reward of getting to do a cool event. Of course, if the other elements of the game--the parts inbetween the reward--are fun in and of themselves, then it's no problem. But if it's kill X rats, your cool idea is looking more like an intermission from a tedious game than a surprising and engaging feature.

So a great idea, yes, but like all great ideas, the execution is everything.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#32 Jan 24 2013 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,309 posts
It could be used as part of its only storyline progression. So, say, you'd only get that particular cutscene+mini boss one time, ever, per character (provided you defeat him.) And then in another hundred leves, you'd get the next installment in the story.

As long as the alternate storyline/path isn't progress dependent (e.g. limit breaks), it could definitely provide an incentive for doing leves besides the same old level grind.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#33 Jan 24 2013 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
catwho wrote:
It could be used as part of its only storyline progression. So, say, you'd only get that particular cutscene+mini boss one time, ever, per character (provided you defeat him.) And then in another hundred leves, you'd get the next installment in the story.

As long as the alternate storyline/path isn't progress dependent (e.g. limit breaks), it could definitely provide an incentive for doing leves besides the same old level grind.


Not being combative at all, just pointing out that then we'd be at the same old grind that mystic weapons or WSNM stuff was in XI. I, personally, did not mind such tasks, but this seems to be the very thing that SE is trying to avoid (much to my dismay.)

EDIT: I read this and then realized I did not clarify to the point I would have liked to.

If I am going to participate in any repetetive activity, I expect some tangible result. I like to think any normal person, especially any westerner, would understand that. Athletes practice every day to hone their particular skills in whatever sport they compete. Scholars study and research tirelessly to become experts in their field. If I can only do a set number of leves a day and it requires me 100 or more leves to access the next part of the story, I will tend to be underwhelmed (unless the particular piece of the story is juicy as hell.)

I guess what I'm saying is that I want something I can use / show off by doing all those leves, not be relegated to knowing what the next section of the story is, which will turn up on a wiki for all to read within the month.

Edited, Jan 25th 2013 12:46am by IKickYoDog
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#34 Jan 25 2013 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
catwho wrote:
It could be used as part of its only storyline progression. So, say, you'd only get that particular cutscene+mini boss one time, ever, per character (provided you defeat him.) And then in another hundred leves, you'd get the next installment in the story.

As long as the alternate storyline/path isn't progress dependent (e.g. limit breaks), it could definitely provide an incentive for doing leves besides the same old level grind.


Therein lies the quandary. A design device cannot be both an incentive and also be a novel, surprising element. To be an incentive predicates that the player knows that it exists and pursues it. So it has to pick one, and either one is fine! But, what I mean to point out is that the reason it sounds like such a good idea is that we can easily imagine it being a surprising element that catches us off guard. If we then go and make it an incentive, it loses a lot of that coolness and becomes a carrot. But if it doesn't actually do anything valuable, as in an incentive, it may be cool, but it won't directly encourage players to participate in the other design elements that were created.

The trick is that this should ideally be something that surprises us, and we don't know it's coming, but when it does, we like it. In a day and age where players are going to research away most of the surprises, this remains a challenge.

And this is where a lot of MMOs break down. Rather than putting in all of these cool features with no strings attached, allowing you to play just for the sake of being surprised (remember when the idea of an MMO was to explore a living, breathing world full of surprises and adventure, rather than to get to max level and equip the best gear?), they stay focused on player goals and progression, carefully trying to figure out how to space out their carrots to keep you pulling the wagon the longest.

Edited, Jan 24th 2013 10:59pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#35 Jan 25 2013 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Now that the thread is firmly off track...these points about novelty:

These "little things" are what make the greatest games. Unfortunately they are IMO a bit more difficult to implement in games like MMOs that become reduced to "what these events can get me" rather than the experience itself.

Things that stand out to me the most are "mini games" or "meta games."

Things like:

The courtroom scene from Chrono Trigger

The opera scene from FFVI

The "escaping the cell" scene from MGS

The strategy game from FFVII (and all of the other mini games)

The WoW "chess" event.
-----------
...And although the "random HQ battle" idea is a very good one, I feel that a FF MMO needs to really incorporate more story driven elements like the "meeting/dinner with the emperor" in FFVI that asks you a certain series of questions and then grants you a reward based off of how you answered the question. Yes, people will find the "right" answers after a while, but that's why you'd randomize it and have varied combinations.

I feel that FFXIV could excel in this department and bring in a much needed shot of interactive story/lore to the MMO market in general.

Of course FFXI had Genkai and Airship pass/Chocobo quests that were blocks to progression/travel, but if tweaked a bit, I think could still work in providing much needed variation in a generally stale MMO market as well.

I don't really want just an "amusement park" where I can do a lot of things at any and all times. I want to experience, one time memorable events (AF quests and those mentioned above), that mean something after I accomplish it, in congruence to the progression of my character.

And I don't want to repeat the same quests for sets of gear. Yes, I like grinding sometimes, but ultimately I don't. Guildleves as "progression" was horrible and I'd much rather (although still not optimal) have "regular" quests to progress. I just hope they are varied/fun enough.

In the end MMOs have many things to keep a player playing and progressing: skills, levels, stats, gil, gear, quests, as well as exploration, pride of progression itself and many others. Story is usually on the bottom of the list, but in a FF game (MMO or not) it should be up there and SE should take a page from their single-player games, as well as FFXI to do this.
#36 Jan 25 2013 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
On most points I agree completely.

Quote:
...And although the "random HQ battle" idea is a very good one, I feel that a FF MMO needs to really incorporate more story driven elements like the "meeting/dinner with the emperor" in FFVI that asks you a certain series of questions and then grants you a reward based off of how you answered the question. Yes, people will find the "right" answers after a while, but that's why you'd randomize it and have varied combinations.


On this one, my point of caution would be that if the rewards were meaningful at all, then players would be rightfully irritated if it boiled down to a one-time chance for a good reward, and missed it because it ultimately became a game of chance, or looking up the right answer. Actually, I recall quite a few scenes with Naja Salaheem that were quite well done in FFXI (a minigame or two as well). I don't believe they yielded any rewards, but they do serve your point about the importance of these novel elements.

However, I will say that I think SWTOR actually did an exemplary job with its story-centric play. FFXIV would do well to live up to that standard. SWTOR's primary downfall was the mediocre gameplay, which serves to show just how lethal mediocre gameplay can be, even when all else is done rather well.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#37 Jan 25 2013 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
***
1,235 posts
I'm not so sure surprise and incentive can't go together as long as you have the right amount of suspense to glue the two together. After playing a prank on a friend, once your friend vows revenge, you know it's going to happen. But what keeps you on your toes is that you don't know when or how.

As a hero, you're bound to make some enemies along the way. Even if you know and expect they'll come after you, not knowing when or what form their attack will take could add some fun suspense to an otherwise dull grind. Plus, it's all the better if the villain is after you because it's personal. It makes you feel like your actions are making a difference and a familiar powerful foe that has your number is the stuff of many a popular adventure.

Pulling it off in the right measure could be tough, but I think it could make for an interesting innovation if it's done right.
#38 Jan 25 2013 at 4:38 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Xoie wrote:
I'm not so sure surprise and incentive can't go together as long as you have the right amount of suspense to glue the two together. After playing a prank on a friend, once your friend vows revenge, you know it's going to happen. But what keeps you on your toes is that you don't know when or how.

As a hero, you're bound to make some enemies along the way. Even if you know and expect they'll come after you, not knowing when or what form their attack will take could add some fun suspense to an otherwise dull grind. Plus, it's all the better if the villain is after you because it's personal. It makes you feel like your actions are making a difference and a familiar powerful foe that has your number is the stuff of many a popular adventure.

Pulling it off in the right measure could be tough, but I think it could make for an interesting innovation if it's done right.


Well, I'm going to have to quibble with that analogy just a bit. Anticipating revenge and being on your toes for it, and expecting a reward (incentive), are very different things. The latter is more like working at a sales job where you expect to make some sales and earn a commission, but you don't know when they'll come. It can be exciting for a while, but at some point, you expect to make sales, and there is no thrill to it. And when you're looking for it and you don't find it, it's frustrating and **** which is not at all a good quality in a game.

If you go out looking for trouble, you won't be surprised to find it... you'll be disappointed if you don't. And that is the part that is difficult to pull off artfully. Not impossible, just difficult.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Jan 25 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
An easy solution: when selecting a leve, an event takes place randomly and varies depending upon one's story progression and/or level. The event features whatever SE wants it to feature. Maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get ambushed by the empire; maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get one massive dodo brood mother.

The reward can just be a gil and item bonus, a title, and/or an achievement - maybe some vanity gear for a late-game or high-level event; maybe that brood dodo drops fifty dodo feathers and some re-skinned boots with a feathered trim. My point is that there's no need to make the rewards top-tier armours to make them appealing to most everyone.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#40 Jan 25 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,604 posts
That can work.. the only issue I see with it is that it needs to be the same difficulty level as whatever leve you originally signed up for.

Otherwise, the player doing it will suddenly find themselves unable to do their content through no fault of their own.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#41 Jan 25 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
374 posts
catwho wrote:
RDM is currently wallowing in the pits of "nobody wants me" over in XI. They may be concerned about that happening in XIV, too.

Funny, because at one point RDM was one of the most popular jobs and everyone wanted it leveled. These days, though, it's just not specialized enough, and the one thing it is really good at (enfeebles) is pointless for the majority of endgame fights.



While not disagreeing with the desirability of RDM over on XI (I stopped playing 2 years ago, so I'm not up on current trends,) I highly doubt this is the reason they're not including it in XIV atm.

It's more likely due to the fact that they don't have time to balance such a job in time for release.... or some other reason which we can't even speculate upon.

Whatever the reason, I'm sure it's a logical one.
#42 Jan 25 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
That can work.. the only issue I see with it is that it needs to be the same difficulty level as whatever leve you originally signed up for.

Otherwise, the player doing it will suddenly find themselves unable to do their content through no fault of their own.


"Expect the unexpected, this is a Square-Enix game, b*tch!"
*slaps leve ticket to the ground*
"Well? Who's gonna pick it up!?"


That's the SE I knew and loved.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#43 Jan 25 2013 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
An easy solution: when selecting a leve, an event takes place randomly and varies depending upon one's story progression and/or level. The event features whatever SE wants it to feature. Maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get ambushed by the empire; maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get one massive dodo brood mother.

The reward can just be a gil and item bonus, a title, and/or an achievement - maybe some vanity gear for a late-game or high-level event; maybe that brood dodo drops fifty dodo feathers and some re-skinned boots with a feathered trim. My point is that there's no need to make the rewards top-tier armours to make them appealing to most everyone.


If properly balanced, I think that works just fine. You can still run into scenarios where a player really wants vanity a item, and while that may not be as critical an incentive as a performance-based item, ends up with the same net effect of player frustration. However, I think overall the idea works, just as long as the rewards are something a player would appreciate, but not necessarily set goals around obtaining.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Jan 26 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
4 posts
I really hope they have ideas for BeastMaster in ffxiv! i loved that job before they killed it with the pets despawning after releasing them.

btw im new to the forums but ive played ffxi since ps2 relase untill about a few months after ahts urgan was released. Absolutely loved playing BST when I wasnt doing any ground kings or events i really hope they have plans for that job in this one.
#45 Jan 26 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,122 posts
I think the best change to leves would be to get rid of them.

Seriously, I don't know why people weren't up in arms about the fact that while every other WoW-like game has actual quests (as boring and generic as these games may be), SE's solution to quest based XPing was to make a small number of scenarios which are basically all the same thing (run to a target on the map and kill the monsters that spawn there, again and again and again). It's just the laziest, most half assed game design imaginable. They're not even challenging (for some reason that I never found out, leve monsters had hardly any HP) and most of the time was spent travelling. I hope they don't feature so much in 2.0.

With all the running just to kill generic enemies that were even weaker than normal, how can anyone have found them fun? Even the first few levels of grinding in Sarutabaruta/Ronfaure/Gustaberg was more entertaining than that garbage.

Edited, Jan 26th 2013 10:42pm by Dizmo
#46 Jan 26 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I completely agree, actually. I never thought they were a good idea. I mean, wow, I get to select a quest from a menu... how immersive and exciting!
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Jan 26 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Not only that, but they all take place around generic, predesignated level spots with the same floating crystal at the centre. Leves really are a bland feature to have in any game, and I'm glad so many others think so, too.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#48 Jan 26 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
11,565 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Not only that, but they all take place around generic, predesignated level spots with the same floating crystal at the centre. Leves really are a bland feature to have in any game, and I'm glad so many others think so, too.


Welcome to 2012/2013 MMORPGs. It's only downhill from here.
#49 Jan 26 2013 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Unfortunately I think the main reason people haven't raised much of a stink over it is because there have been much bigger issues on the table. At least, speaking for myself. If combat isn't, frankly, quite a bit better than that in other popular MMOs, leves won't even be the straw to break the chocobo's back. That sucker will have given out long before a lackluster questing interface comes into play.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Jan 26 2013 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
While I agree that leves aren't particularly fun or interesting, I do think that their implementation was improved in the Alpha.

SE will never get rid of them completely, because writing enough quests to accommodate players who want to level every class is an impossible undertaking. Unless they decide to dump the idea of the armory, which will never happen, you can expect leves to stick around.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#51 Jan 26 2013 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I really don't see how leves solve the problem of XP, either. I mean, they're basically just repeatable quests. Lots of games, including FFXI, have them. And it's not like you can't XP by killing monsters outside of leves.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 143 All times are in CDT
Ascianala, IMFW, Lantesh, nonzz, SillyHawk, Szabo, Turin, Anonymous Guests (136)