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FFXIV now with more WoW and Aion?Follow

#1 Jan 07 2013 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV
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#2 Jan 07 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV



Join the camp (the one I'm in.) And prepare your semi-flame retardent, semi-condescending shield. Also, prepare for people to begin speaking in old english at you, in order to convey the point that your thinking is a way of the past.

Good luck m'lad.
#3 Jan 07 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Koren F2P MMOs are about as opposite of WoW as you can get... so... it's like you're complaining that FFXIV is too big and too small in the same breath. And that's not even considering that you're also complaining that FFXIV is like FFXIV.
#4 Jan 07 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Koren F2P MMOs are about as opposite of WoW as you can get... so... it's like you're complaining that FFXIV is too big and too small in the same breath. And that's not even considering that you're also complaining that FFXIV is like FFXIV.

edit:::
... Nevermind. I give up.


Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:22pm by je355804
#5 Jan 07 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.
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#6 Jan 07 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.


Exactly which RPGs or mmorpgs have you been playing where 90pct of the combat isn't repetitive. I keep seeing people make this comment and NOBODY making any real suggestions about how to fix it. I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked must represent the entire game after all.

ETA. If you don't like the combat in these types of games maybe you don't like these types of games?

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 7:29pm by LebargeX
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#7 Jan 07 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked


I think they meant that the equations are being reworked, not the combat itself. The final combat system will very likely be more similar to its alpha state than different from it. That's really to be expected, though: how many times does one expect them to try and reinvent the game?
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#8 Jan 07 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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LebargeX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.


Exactly which RPGs or mmorpgs have you been playing where 90pct of the combat isn't repetitive. I keep seeing people make this comment and NOBODY making any real suggestions about how to fix it. I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked must represent the entire game after all.

ETA. If you don't like the combat in these types of games maybe you don't like these types of games?

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 7:29pm by LebargeX


I've made lots of suggestions about how to fix it. It's simply a matter of making the game more skillful by requiring greater mental or physical skill. For example, Crisis Core, Dissidia, No More Heroes, and Monster Hunter (and Borderlands for a western example) all share both action and RPG elements. I could go on at the other end for strategy games, but I feel I've made my point. Even most of the early FF games manage to maintain a healthy blend of active, timed decision-making. While yeah, you can just mash A through a lot of the regular enemy battles, even those battles can be exciting when the game balance is good. It becomes a challenge of attrition to reach the next Save/Boss/Town. Particularly if you're under-leveled, every decision matters in a well-designed RPG. I've played plenty of strategy games where no two games were the same.

Though I would actually agree that RPG as a generic genre is inherently weak, since it merely describes a vague presence of narrative and progression, and really doesn't prescribe anything about the gameplay. As a result, it is defined as a genre in which no type of challenge is specified, and as a result of that, developers often seem to forget that THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT ONE IN. That's how you prevent the gameplay from being repetitive.
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#9 Jan 07 2013 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked


I think they meant that the equations are being reworked, not the combat itself. The final combat system will very likely be more similar to its alpha state than different from it. That's really to be expected, though: how many times does one expect them to try and reinvent the game?


I think that's a huge assumption, but we'll know more when beta gets going I guess.
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#10 Jan 07 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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No matter how skillful or challenging you make it the battling is still going to become repetitive and boring. Once you get the hang of it I mean. A lot of people on this forum sight dark souls as being challenging. Once you get the hang of the gameplay though its all a lot of boring soul farming for upgrades.

Now multiply that by X number of years playing an MMO? I don't see what you're expecting them to do exactly.


I just think that after gaming for so long I kinda feel like I've seen it all before. 50 plus levels of dodging and parrying and timed strikes is all well and good I guess but if I'm out farming beehive chips I wanna be able to create insect genocide on an appropriately swift level

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 8:33pm by LebargeX
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#11 Jan 07 2013 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
I think they meant that the equations are being reworked, not the combat itself. The final combat system will very likely be more similar to its alpha state than different from it. That's really to be expected, though: how many times does one expect them to try and reinvent the game?


I think that's a huge assumption, but we'll know more when beta gets going I guess.


According to the new roadmap, combat is in the "rebalancing" stage. As I understand it, the term conveys a sense of tweaking and specific improvements as opposed to a radical reworking. By radical reworking, I mean a movement away from the standard macro-bar, global cooldown, regenerating resource consuming system that FFXIV and most MMORPGs currently use.

I think you're right that my use of "equations" was too specific, though (I had remembered the terminology incorrectly), as SE's balancing likely involves things like cooldown timers and MP/TP costs in addition to what I had said.
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#12 Jan 08 2013 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Final Fantasy XI was good.

...for its time. That time has long passed.

FFXI has very dated controls, dated interface, and they're going through a lot of limitations in order to keep things running. Not to mention when I was playing FFXI in its prime, there was a lot of waiting and a lot of time investment in order to get anything done. No thanks.



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 10:02pm by UltKnightGrover
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#13 Jan 08 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
...as SE's balancing likely involves things like cooldown timers and MP/TP costs in addition to what I had said.

This is the most likely of scenarios. I personally feel that combat isn't as busy as it could be, so that long GCD really irritates me.

People have been mentioning that the system is boring and repetitive, yet they refuse to remember FFXI's combat system where you literally waited until you got 100TP. The point is that it's possible to keep the current system while adjusting the GCD and giving independent cooldown.
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#14 Jan 08 2013 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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No matter how skillful or challenging you make it the battling is still going to become repetitive and boring. Once you get the hang of it I mean. A lot of people on this forum sight dark souls as being challenging. Once you get the hang of the gameplay though its all a lot of boring soul farming for upgrades.

Now multiply that by X number of years playing an MMO? I don't see what you're expecting them to do exactly.


I could hardly disagree more. If the challenge continues to escalate, it will never become entirely repetitive. As a couple of examples with PvE style content, look at Rock Band/Guitar Hero. Sure, there are different songs, but you're essentially hitting the same 5 buttons over and over. Look at the Smash Bros. Series. Each character only has ~20 moves, but even against high level computer opponents each battle presents unique challenges. Ever play a simple game of chess against the average computer program?

The problem is that they're following the paradigm of the "MMO" too closely and not borrowing from the hundreds of successful single player games which actually have decent gameplay. It's really not hard to imagine how the gameplay can be great if you don't limit yourself to comparing it to existing MMOs, which are notorious among critics for having incredibly lackluster gameplay design in contrast to single player games.

All that is not to mention things like changing classes. If nothing else, gameplay that is boring after 300 hours is much more desirable than gameplay that's boring after 30. If you don't even give your players an opportunity to get invested in their character, your game is doomed.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Jan 08 2013 at 4:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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kachi wrote:
The problem is that they're following the paradigm of the "MMO" too closely and not borrowing from the hundreds of successful single player games which actually have decent gameplay. It's really not hard to imagine how the gameplay can be great if you don't limit yourself to comparing it to existing MMOs, which are notorious among critics for having incredibly lackluster gameplay design in contrast to single player games.

All that is not to mention things like changing classes. If nothing else, gameplay that is boring after 300 hours is much more desirable than gameplay that's boring after 30. If you don't even give your players an opportunity to get invested in their character, your game is doomed.


Those things work in a single player game, it's just you against the computer. The concept behind a MMO should be the focus on group dynamics, not every man for themselves. Part of the challenge is that unknown of how the group will perform. The direction that MMOs are going today is mainly solo the boring parts and try to work together for end-game. If you want a solo game, go get your fill on single-player console games.

Also, the one thing I think most agree on about FFXI that SE got right was the fact you could change jobs. People that did play FFXI for any length of time got extremely attached to their characters because they could be diverse instead of one-trick ponies. The fact you didn't need to replay the entire game to play a different job was a huge bonus.
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#16 Jan 08 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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TurboTom wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
...as SE's balancing likely involves things like cooldown timers and MP/TP costs in addition to what I had said.

This is the most likely of scenarios. I personally feel that combat isn't as busy as it could be, so that long GCD really irritates me.

People have been mentioning that the system is boring and repetitive, yet they refuse to remember FFXI's combat system where you literally waited until you got 100TP. The point is that it's possible to keep the current system while adjusting the GCD and giving independent cooldown.


I think creating separate cool downs could be one of the things they're working on. I also think they're probably going to tweak the mob twitching that we see in that alpha video, I'm pretty sure that was universally disliked. Not a deal breaker for me, but would be nice.

One thing is for sure, ARR will probably look a lot different a year from launch, this team (Yoshi-P in particular) seems to be more than willing to try to tweak things to make the most people happy.
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#17 Jan 08 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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A big "problem" with MMO's now a day is the masses of DB/Info sites detailing everything in game on them, so anything you want to know is usually a short click away. I remember back in the late 90's playing Ultima Online and how great it was due to everything being unknown, new, to be explored etc. Then Stratics came along and I knew everything I needed to know.
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#18 Jan 08 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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You could just...you know..not look. Smiley: tongue
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#19 Jan 08 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Default
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Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


It's really not that much like WoW. I know this because I'm awesome. But seriously, it's not. It will be fun.
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#20 Jan 08 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Default
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^^^ Brings a great point, i made it a goal not to look at any combat information or lore when Wotlk came out... and i enjoyed the hell out of that expansion, because every encounter surprised me, and it felt new. Did not do that with Cata.... :( Damm it!
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#21 Jan 08 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Poubelle, what exactly are you basing that statement on?
#22 Jan 08 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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je355804 wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Koren F2P MMOs are about as opposite of WoW as you can get... so... it's like you're complaining that FFXIV is too big and too small in the same breath. And that's not even considering that you're also complaining that FFXIV is like FFXIV.

edit:::
... Nevermind. I give up.


Edited, Jan 7th 2013 4:22pm by je355804


It's about time. Seriously, FFXI is still a game that you can play, right now. What's stopping you?
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#23 Jan 08 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hell, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.
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#24 Jan 08 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Hell, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.


I've been considering booting it up while we wait, haha.
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#25 Jan 08 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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LebargeX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I believe he was meaning that the combat is insubstantial and repetitive; not necessarily referring to the pacing between levels, which is certainly very different between WoW and Korean games. Having said that, three months of boredom isn't necessarily any better than three years of boredom when you're trying to make a fun game. Players will flee in droves pretty equally.

At least, that's my best inference.


Exactly which RPGs or mmorpgs have you been playing where 90pct of the combat isn't repetitive. I keep seeing people make this comment and NOBODY making any real suggestions about how to fix it. I mean the level 20 combat the devs have told us is being completely reworked must represent the entire game after all.

ETA. If you don't like the combat in these types of games maybe you don't like these types of games?

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 7:29pm by LebargeX


All i ask is that they scale the mob difficulty in the open world similar to the way they did in XI. As for instancing, i guess that part can remain WoW-like with "elite" levels. I'm also hoping for some kind of balance here between open world exp parties versus group instancing. In other words, i would like to see a healthy combination of both, that way the social aspect of the MMO isnt compromised.

As for the battle system, hopefully there's a combo system to replace the skill chain & exp chain system that was in XI. Whether it is individual combos within each job's abilities, or with teamates, or maybe even both combined... Anything to enhance the team coordination or variation of playstyle is always welcome. I just dont want another mashing/spamming of skills like in WoW. Hopefully this time around, DPS's do more than just put up high numbers of dmg. Especially in the case of melee dps, I would like to see some sort of utility that can help the tank, healer, and range dps - depending on the situation of the battle. I'm just tired of seeing apples to apples when it comes to melee dps.
#26 Jan 08 2013 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Those things work in a single player game, it's just you against the computer. The concept behind a MMO should be the focus on group dynamics, not every man for themselves. Part of the challenge is that unknown of how the group will perform. The direction that MMOs are going today is mainly solo the boring parts and try to work together for end-game. If you want a solo game, go get your fill on single-player console games.


They work in multiplayer games too! Surely you haven't forgotten all the games with online co-op modes? Hell, half the games I just listed are -multiplayer-!

Group dynamics are nice and MMOs as a whole tend to suck at them. But they also need not be the emphasis of an MMO. An MMO can be great without great group dynamics. The individual player experience is most important. The mechanics of good group dynamics are not even very sophisticated or unordinary anymore... they just tend to be poorly balanced.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Jan 08 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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You... kinda compard to opposites there.

Lets make this simple for you.

FFXIV is not FFXI, it is not attempting to be like FFXI in any capacity except that it is a Final Fantasy game and a Massive Multiplayer. In fact, it has been stated on numerous accounts that they are not trying for FFXI's audience base as much as creating a modern MMO within the well known tropes and expectations of the franchise.

If you do not like modern MMOs like Aion, World of Warcraft, SWToR, etc. This may not be the game for you, as FFXIV aims to meet and beat the standards set by those games, I'm not going to sugar coat that fact.

There's nothing wrong in desiring an old-fashioned MMO. But do not pretend that modern MMOs will likely adapt this policy as the majority of the MMO base actually do not desire many of the tropes that came with it, or have simply grown out of it.

I'll remember FFXI fondly, but I do not want to play a upgraded version of that game. Rather, if they do such I would rather it be a separate title, specifically FFXI-2. FFXIV is its own entity and I would like it to remain as such, for better or worse.

If anything, FFXIV is walking in FFXI's footsteps as it's following the trends and standards of MMOs established at its time, adding it's own twists at the common and developing conventions.
#28 Jan 08 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hell, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.


I've been considering booting it up while we wait, haha.


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#29 Jan 08 2013 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
No matter how skillful or challenging you make it the battling is still going to become repetitive and boring. Once you get the hang of it I mean. A lot of people on this forum sight dark souls as being challenging. Once you get the hang of the gameplay though its all a lot of boring soul farming for upgrades.

Now multiply that by X number of years playing an MMO? I don't see what you're expecting them to do exactly.


I just think that after gaming for so long I kinda feel like I've seen it all before. 50 plus levels of dodging and parrying and timed strikes is all well and good I guess but if I'm out farming beehive chips I wanna be able to create insect genocide on an appropriately swift level

Edited, Jan 7th 2013 8:33pm by LebargeX

What of anything no matter how creatively designed in a game will not become repetitive or boring in a game if you repeat it over and over? The meat and potatoes of most rpgs is battle and story questing. No matter how ingeniously or lazily those two portions are designed. You always see some variation, be it slight or great amongst rpgs. Dark Souls is or isn't difficult depending on the player. No game is really difficult if you have knowledge, practice, and patience. Dark Souls does however require relatively constant movement across a three dimensional axis. One of the most common complaints about traditional mmos is that the environment is three dimensions. But many require little to no movement, just stand still and spam rotations.

I think when people refer to seeing bland combat, they are referring to one or two trick ponies. Combat doesn't need to reinvent the wheel at every turn but it should have at least on unique thing that drops some jaws. For the rest, there are many different genres and older games to draw from and refine used concepts. Things like momentum, stamina, GCD, reactive skills, active skills, passive skills, aim, tempo, resource management, resources that are unreplenishable in real time, resources that are replenishable real time, chargeable skills, combo skills, controller modifer skills(think nba2k series), rythmic timed skill activation, enfeebling strikes, crowd control mechanisms. I can keep going since there are so many avenues that could be explored in combat. As for quests, most are based off professions. If there are hundreds of different professions? Why are most relegated to delivery or kill?

As deep as the possibilities are. There comes a point where a decision must be made on how deep or time consuming something must be before it becomes too much to micromanage every step of the way? Alot of players like myself long for a feeling of a deep, complex process to many things. But some players feel that maybe sometimes they enjoy that, but they also like to have that relaxed easy killfest on simpler/weaker encounters. The balance that must be struck between intricate and times repeated must be maintained. Think of it like handcrafting a guitar from start to finish. To someone who enjoys that. SE just enveloped a hardcore niche that will move mountains to interact. Craft 1-20 guitars and maybe the semi casual will feel great too. But what if the guitars required to be handcrafted are 100, 1000, 10000? Perhaps all of the sudden those casual to semi casual players are asking if Walmart sells some of the simpler preproduced guitars?

Yoshi stated before that they are only developers and not geniouses. So don't expect to see something miraculous in all aspects. Do not expect that from any mmo in my opinion. Maybe one day we will get that in an offline rpg? Maybe?

#30 Jan 08 2013 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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A side note, a lot of the battles in FFXIV 1.xx had placed emphasis on positioning for both defensive and offensive pourposes. Requiring motion was something that was a given in the game, though not identicle for all classes. (Obviously ranged classes had to move less than melee classes.)

Some of this is going to be toned down on the offensive aspect only to keep things more balanced between ranged and melee PvP. I currently don't know if there is to be some other bonuses for moving around in melee related to systems not revealed yet, but if they run anything in combat like they did in 1.xx, expect to have to evade area attacks of various assortments, or move to specific points to activate a gimick of some sort. They did boss encounters fairly well.
#31 Jan 08 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
Tera had revolutionized MMO combat, and look how long that was "fresh". I've just given up on combat in MMO's being challenging, if I want to fight something that's challenging with execution and mind games, I'll play a fighter like Street Fighter IV. Battles can still be epic (airship fight in CoP), but what makes MMO's fun for me is the party system. XI had it right and oddly enough, XIV's party system was fun too once you had the full 8 man party. So as long as the combat is well paced with some diversity in spells, hate, melee, etc, I think it'll be fine. I'd be more worried about the partying system and events at this point.
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#32 Jan 08 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
No matter how skillful or challenging you make it the battling is still going to become repetitive and boring. Once you get the hang of it I mean. A lot of people on this forum sight dark souls as being challenging. Once you get the hang of the gameplay though its all a lot of boring soul farming for upgrades.

Now multiply that by X number of years playing an MMO? I don't see what you're expecting them to do exactly.

What of anything no matter how creatively designed in a game will not become repetitive or boring in a game if you repeat it over and over? The meat and potatoes of most rpgs is battle and story questing. No matter how ingeniously or lazily those two portions are designed. You always see some variation, be it slight or great amongst rpgs. Dark Souls is or isn't difficult depending on the player. No game is really difficult if you have knowledge, practice, and patience. Dark Souls does however require relatively constant movement across a three dimensional axis. One of the most common complaints about traditional mmos is that the environment is three dimensions. But many require little to no movement, just stand still and spam rotations.


I'm one of those big Dark Souls fans you speak of, so I felt like I had to chime in.

The thing that keeps Dark Souls combat interesting is multiplayer. You can easily step into 3-on-1 combat where you're the 1 against 3 well-armed opponents whose only purpose in life is to cheaply gank you. To that end, there's effectively no limit to the difficulty, unless you can master even that, but even the best players suffer under such unfair conditions. (Pulling off a win, however, is one of the best trollface moments you can have...)

However, there is a limit to multiplayer: your level. You can't be invaded by characters who are much higher in level in level than you are, and conversely, you can't invade characters who are much lower in level than you are. You are complete control on how much you level your character, however, and leveling is the only way to raise your stats. Once raised, there's no going back.

So the fun, and replayability, is in building a character with certain specifications. One that's strong enough to use the equipment and/or magic you'd like to use, but not so high level that you place yourself out of multiplayer range (there are 712ish levels you can raise your character depending on your starting class, but most stick with level 120 as the max or your ability to invade/be invaded falls off sharply). Doing this means you have to live without certain amenities as well (you may have strong stats for weapons, but that doesn't leave a lot left over for magic, health, equipment weight, etc.), so it's a carefully considered process.

The process of building your character does involve going through the same story all over again, and, of course, once you get used to it, it does become routine. But because you're leveling your character in a new way, not unlike leveling a new job from level 1 in FFXI, your experience will be slightly different. Your first playthrough may have involved hacking and slashing your way with melee weapons, but if you're building a mage, you'll have to learn how to fight at range a lot more. You may have built a tank the first time and were able to soak a bit of damage, but if you're going for a stealthy, sneaky type character this time, you'll have to learn to dodge blows more often. Different weapons have different movesets and there's a wide variety to choose from which also keeps it interesting.

All that said, I'm not sure how well this translates into actual MMO material, other than to say that mutliplayer alone can add to replayability and player motivation for no more reward than the chance to beat a challenging foe. I should caution that action combat tends to have issues when you're dealing with a lot of players simultaneously hacking at each other. The perceived fairness of such combat can come into question when complaints arise that you only won because the lag was favoring you, so it's not 100% without its flaws. To that end, menu/action bar driven combat tends to resolve itself a bit more evenly when lag strikes since any character is presumed to be defending themselves automatically rather than sleepily accepting a fatal stab to their back.
#33 Jan 08 2013 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
catwho wrote:
Hell, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.

I've been considering booting it up while we wait, haha.

I'm on Asura Smiley: thumbsup


Oh, no... not again. I did my seven years' time, man. I can't go back... I can't never go back. o_o

... but I'm ever so tempted, now.
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#34 Jan 08 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Poubelle wrote:
Anyone else not like the direction FFXIV is going in?

I was hoping they would just make it more like FFXI, but the game feels a lot like a Korean F2P game now if I'm being genuine.

Kinda like a mix between Aion, WoW, and FFXIV


Final Fantasy XI was good.

...for its time. That time has long passed.

FFXI has very dated controls, dated interface, and they're going through a lot of limitations in order to keep things running. Not to mention when I was playing FFXI in its prime, there was a lot of waiting and a lot of time investment in order to get anything done. No thanks.



Edited, Jan 7th 2013 10:02pm by UltKnightGrover


So the perfect solution: Hand-hold and hand out pretty much everything to the player and allow them to blow through all of your content in quick succession.

Yep that's definitely the better alternative.
#35 Jan 08 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
catwho wrote:
Hell, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.

I've been considering booting it up while we wait, haha.

I'm on Asura Smiley: thumbsup


Oh, no... not again. I did my seven years' time, man. I can't go back... I can't never go back. o_o

... but I'm ever so tempted, now.


You can never get away Smiley: sly
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#36 Jan 08 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I gotta admit as "nice" as it is to go into FFXIV knowing pretty much how the underlying basics of combat will play out, I find myself remember Xenoblade. Throughout the epic ride the game was (and I'd rate it damn near close to my favorite RPG of all time) I remember stating constantly how utterly incredible a combat system like it could easily be adapted towards the MMO genre.

It was simple enough that everyone could grasp it yet complex enough that it gave the "elite" something to aim towards in terms of chains and keeping the bonus up as long as you could. Flowed well, no animation locking, and positional elements in most every attack keep you moving around to get the optimal effects on your abilities.

Edited, Jan 8th 2013 11:13pm by Viertel
#37 Jan 08 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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^^ Xenoblade like Magna Carta 2 are based off the battle system of Final Fantasy XII.

All great games in my opinion.
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#38 Jan 08 2013 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Tera had revolutionized MMO combat, and look how long that was "fresh". I've just given up on combat in MMO's being challenging, if I want to fight something that's challenging with execution and mind games, I'll play a fighter like Street Fighter IV. Battles can still be epic (airship fight in CoP), but what makes MMO's fun for me is the party system. XI had it right and oddly enough, XIV's party system was fun too once you had the full 8 man party. So as long as the combat is well paced with some diversity in spells, hate, melee, etc, I think it'll be fine. I'd be more worried about the partying system and events at this point.


I don't play Tera but from what I understand it didn't revolutionize MMO combat so much as combine hotbars with Phantasy Star Online, which is as old as the Dreamcast. PREMISE MEANS NOTHING WITHOUT BALANCE. Balance is what determines how long gameplay remains fresh, not cool ideas. Most MMOs are inherently already some combination of strategy and action. They fail to remain fresh because they aren't well-balanced, not because the concept is inherently flawed. GW2 is another example of this... they "revolutionized" combat with physics-based player combos. But they failed to balance those combos, so the concept went to waste.
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#39 Jan 08 2013 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
^^ Xenoblade like Magna Carta 2 are based off the battle system of Final Fantasy XII.

All great games in my opinion.


Which was based off of FFXI.

You're not one of those who is always talking about how XIV should be more like XI, are you? If so, that statement would explain so much.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 Jan 09 2013 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:


So the perfect solution: Hand-hold and hand out pretty much everything to the player and allow them to blow through all of your content in quick succession.

Yep that's definitely the better alternative.


Yeah, cause FFXIV totally told me how to beat Nael Darnus. The monsters that needed to be killed at the same time in cutters cry or you get sent back to the beginning? The second commits suicide for you in case you can't do it yourself. Not to mention defeating any of the Primals, the initial methods for United We Stand, how to fight any of the NMs in Skirmish if you never encountered their originals.

The game prompted you all the secrets for every single one of those. They even gave you a handy Apt that allowed you to beat the game with a press of the button.


Seriously, shove your hand-holding bs excuses where the sun doesn't shine. Inconvenience isn't difficulty, it's tedium. You want to have a sense of exploration, go out and actually explore. Even 1.xx was not without it's tidbits like the Hedge Trees.

This idea that you need to force flawed, bullcrap approaches on the player-base at large because you personally want to do things the overly tedious way due to some sort of twisted sense of nostalgia is sickeningly stupid. You want to go talk to every person in a town five times because you didn't know you had to speak to your target at a specific hour with absolutely nothing indicating that you should do so (or who you should talk to or why) you can play FFXI more. But don't think that hand-holding isn't done there either. The instant the quest is done for the first time the explanation is on the forums or up on Wiki, as well as the full flood of complaints about the method done.

FFXIV does the minimum standard of 'hand holding' that's current in MMOs. Basically, it tells you what your goals are and where (about) they can be found. They don't tell you how to overcome the difficulties you may encounter while getting there. People had to learn about Ifrit's Nails or Darnus's Lunar Debris the hard way.

You can fret about the trends in gaming all you like, but they are the trends. Don't like it? Find a different hobby.
#41 Jan 09 2013 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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really? this post became a thread? for shame, alla. for shame.
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#42 Jan 09 2013 at 2:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah all I was trying to say was that if you want better combat find a different genre. I loved dark souls for the first few hours I played it and then once I figured out combat it was just soul farming. Sure you can pvp but you cant even do that wihout hours of farming. Mmos are the same way really so making the combat more challenging is only going to be interesting for a short time if every fight is like that. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how tough or innovative combat is it doesn't really matter. Eventually you'll be doing in your sleep unless its one of the big fights. It's the whole rest of the MMO that makes it worth it or not for me. I played ffxi for a long long time and I could go weeks without unsheathing my weapon. That's the kind of game I want to play again. If I wanted to play smash bros online I would go play that game.

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 12:54am by LebargeX
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#43 Jan 09 2013 at 4:23 AM Rating: Default
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LebargeX wrote:
Yeah all I was trying to say was that if you want better combat find a different genre. I loved dark souls for the first few hours I played it and then once I figured out combat it was just soul farming. Sure you can pvp but you cant even do that wihout hours of farming. Mmos are the same way really so making the combat more challenging is only going to be interesting for a short time if every fight is like that. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how tough or innovative combat is it doesn't really matter. Eventually you'll be doing in your sleep unless its one of the big fights. It's the whole rest of the MMO that makes it worth it or not for me. I played ffxi for a long long time and I could go weeks without unsheathing my weapon. That's the kind of game I want to play again. If I wanted to play smash bros online I would go play that game.

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 12:54am by LebargeX


Most of what you're saying is your opinion and that's fine, but the bolded is what I take issue with. The challenge that combat provides absolutely matters. In fact, one of the first lessons that the science behind enjoyment has to teach us is that challenge is one of the most important things. It's fine if you feel that way for yourself; challenge only matters when a player actually cares about the challenge, which you clearly don't. But the overwhelming majority of players do care about challenging combat, so it matters. It probably matters more than any other single thing.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Jan 09 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Yeah all I was trying to say was that if you want better combat find a different genre. I loved dark souls for the first few hours I played it and then once I figured out combat it was just soul farming. Sure you can pvp but you cant even do that wihout hours of farming. Mmos are the same way really so making the combat more challenging is only going to be interesting for a short time if every fight is like that. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how tough or innovative combat is it doesn't really matter. Eventually you'll be doing in your sleep unless its one of the big fights. It's the whole rest of the MMO that makes it worth it or not for me. I played ffxi for a long long time and I could go weeks without unsheathing my weapon. That's the kind of game I want to play again. If I wanted to play smash bros online I would go play that game.

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 12:54am by LebargeX


Most of what you're saying is your opinion and that's fine, but the bolded is what I take issue with. The challenge that combat provides absolutely matters. In fact, one of the first lessons that the science behind enjoyment has to teach us is that challenge is one of the most important things. It's fine if you feel that way for yourself; challenge only matters when a player actually cares about the challenge, which you clearly don't. But the overwhelming majority of players do care about challenging combat, so it matters. It probably matters more than any other single thing.


Agreed. This will probably be the reason I end up trying ARR out and leaving shortly after for another MMO. If I were into crafting or flashy spell effects I'd probably stick with XIV, but combat matters more than anything else to me; especially since it's probably about 80% or more of what you spend time doing in game.
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#45 Jan 09 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
catwho wrote:
Hell, XI is even getting a new expansion in three months.


I've been considering booting it up while we wait, haha.


I'm on Asura Smiley: thumbsup


Ha! I'm on Siren and my friend is on Asura, one of us will have to server transfer Smiley: nod I did go on a few epic adventures with the legendary Exodus and Jinte.

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really? this post became a thread? for shame, alla. for shame.


Well, some of us are trying to derail it but it keeps on a-truckin'

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 9:01am by Louiscool
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#46 Jan 09 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
^^ Xenoblade like Magna Carta 2 are based off the battle system of Final Fantasy XII.

All great games in my opinion.


Which was based off of FFXI.

You're not one of those who is always talking about how XIV should be more like XI, are you? If so, that statement would explain so much.


Eh! Magna Carta 2 battle system was based of the XII system which in turn was based off (Insert random MMO here) but lets say XI, which in turn was based off Everquest.... Great point.

If we wanna be technical about it, is not like Secret of Mana and Secret of Mana 2 did not use similar battle systems.
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#47 Jan 09 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think maybe I'm not getting my point across correctly. Innovate all you want make combat deep and challenging that's all well and good. But it's only going to seem innovative for a short time. Having super challenging boss fights is great but again once you've nailed it a few times the challenge is not quite there. An MMO should strive to be MORE than "hack and slash with friends". And as the previous guy said that's just my opinion. I just don't think it's wrong to ask that an MMO NOT be 80 pct combat.
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#48 Jan 09 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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LebargeX wrote:
Yeah all I was trying to say was that if you want better combat find a different genre. I loved dark souls for the first few hours I played it and then once I figured out combat it was just soul farming. Sure you can pvp but you cant even do that wihout hours of farming. Mmos are the same way really so making the combat more challenging is only going to be interesting for a short time if every fight is like that. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how tough or innovative combat is it doesn't really matter. Eventually you'll be doing in your sleep unless its one of the big fights. It's the whole rest of the MMO that makes it worth it or not for me. I played ffxi for a long long time and I could go weeks without unsheathing my weapon. That's the kind of game I want to play again. If I wanted to play smash bros online I would go play that game.

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 12:54am by LebargeX


In basketball, free throws are boring and in practice, everyone makes them in their sleep (even dwight). But can every player shoot 100% during a game/season? Even if combat were still easy from an innovative approach, that slight margin of error is what makes having it more enjoyable. Even the skill chains in XI could have a slight margin of error, but no matter how many times i pulled off a successful skill chain, i loved doing it... The deeper they can make the game without such a high learning curve, the better...
#49 Jan 09 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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LebargeX wrote:
I think maybe I'm not getting my point across correctly. Innovate all you want make combat deep and challenging that's all well and good. But it's only going to seem innovative for a short time. Having super challenging boss fights is great but again once you've nailed it a few times the challenge is not quite there. An MMO should strive to be MORE than "hack and slash with friends". And as the previous guy said that's just my opinion. I just don't think it's wrong to ask that an MMO NOT be 80 pct combat.


It's only going to seem innovative in the broader sense for a short term-- on that point you're absolutely right. And I think what you're trying to express pertains to the role of novelty in enjoyment. When things are new and exciting, that generates enjoyment. But that doesn't last. If that's what you're trying to say, then look up "hedonic treadmill" and you'll see that you're absolutely right.

But that misses the point. Novelty doesn't just occur from innovating entirely new systems. It also occurs from challenge. It occurs when each battle is different and novel itself-- and it challenges you. That's what prevents it from being boring. Sports analogies are an apt example... people will play the same game for decades and enjoy it because of the challenge. The nature of the game hasn't changed, but the challenge is there because of the balance in the rules. If the game of golf used a 10 ft. diameter hole, it might have never taken off for being far too easy. No real challenge and it absolutely gets boring. But as someone else suggested, it's in the margins of performance, where you might win or lose, that the novelty remains. You don't know what will happen, and every match is a new experience that you learn from.

That's what makes games fun, and that's what MMOs need.

It doesn't need to be 80% combat, either. Hell, FFXI was arguably as much sneaking around as combat. But whatever the objective is, there needs to be an appropriate challenge to it. There needs to be a realistic chance that you might actually lose and it will be your fault.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Jan 09 2013 at 10:04 PM Rating: Default
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Not to sound too off-topic but Tera is going F2P, for those people who have made a character in the past, its F2P right now, for all others, its F2P in Feb. Some of you like me might be going crazy waiting for ARR, and Tera is very similar to it so far, so it would be a good warm up. Just tryin to help my fellow XIV'ers.
#51 Jan 09 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was turned off by the lolis and jiggle physics in that game.

Don't game makers realize that us gals play MMOs too? Smiley: glare
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