Alpha Video #7 - Levequests and Party CombatFollow

TLR's graphical engine problems weren't limited to the PC, however. I played the XBox360 version in particular and it was no less laggy and likely had more issues as there were no loop-holes through the Operating System to bypass issues.

I agree they need to tap the PC market. But the question stands on whether or not they themselves need to get better at designing PC-orientated graphics engines and clients, or weather they should just outsource the graphical development and really focus in on developing a good game.

I state this because the going trend in the past few games SE has released seemed to appeal more on the idea of creating amazing visuals, and then the game-play and story seem to suffer constantly in comparison. I believe I speak for quite a few when I say that many of us could tolerate more games like TLR (or even a downgrade to retro graphics) if it meant having really good gameplay games. I speak highly of some of their handheld titles, like Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts because the graphics took a bit of a back seat to the story due to the limitations of the medium at the time.

They haven't quite seemed to marry the two together and when it comes to priorities, I do believe most FF fans are fans of the stories they tell.

TLR does has graphical issues on all the consoles it was released, but to me the pc version was the less troublesome one, because there are ways to fix it, and it becomes bearable, is the game unplayable ? Not at all, but is not as enjoyable, the game is still a gem in my opinion, one of the better works done by SE in the past decade as far as content, story and new direction.

That is a very good question, the problem with SE in my humble opinion, is that #1 They are not great at developing games on the PC, and they have not decided to focus on the PC market, to me they could be one of the most successful PC developers if they Wanted It. #2 When SE decides to outsource, they do not supervise the quality of what is being done by another company for them, the perfect example is "Front Mission Evolve" and "Lufia II: Curse of the Sinistrals" if they could learn to develop PC ports or games in house they could deliver some great games, for example a game like Dragon Age, is a game that i would have expected SE to make.

I agree totally with what you said on that paragraph, that is my biggest problem with the company actually, and the core of my critique of them, to me the stories told by SE, where amazing, some where simple, but the way they presented them combined with the engaging gameplay made them outshine anything anybody else could deliver. My favorite Square game is Xenogears, and it was not by any means the most graphical intense game at the time, but the story and gameplay was something that i had not experience up to that point. And yes you can speak for myself and others in that regard, i could play a 16 bit game on the PSP or DS if it was as epic as FFVI for example, the focus that SE has given graphics has been their downfall in this generation, for example XII (A perfect scored game) has amazing graphics, great gameplay, yet the storyline was lacking) XIII is the same, amazing graphics, good gameplay, but the script and story was horrible, same with XIII-2 and XIV, amazing visuals... But no essence :( Now the exception to that has been Final Fantasy Type-0 Amazing visuals, amazing gameplay, amazing story.

Now i pose this question, do you think SE has made a blunder of not focusing more attention to their other IP's and just focused on their 3 big ones (FF,KH,DQ) ?

I ask that, because back in the day Square would develop different IP's to complement their FF Release! And they would take different aproaches on those releases and next year they would use what they have learned from those releases and deliver a better FF. Now it seems they are experimenting with FF every single release they do.

The Last Remnant used the Unreal Engine 3, and SE has signed a long term deal with the developers of the Unreal Engine, to use Unreal Engine 3 &4.

So atleast they are moving in the right direction, now what does that means for their luminous engine, i have no idea, they just developed it.

Yes it does look good, SE has always been good at developing engines, on that note they are head and shoulders above other companies, the problem i think they have is that they do not milk their engines, they used crystal tools for how many games ? XIV, XIII/XIII-2 and maybe another one ? Yet the unreal engine has been used in probably 50+ games, every major western RPG has used the unreal engine (ME,ME2,ME3) etc etc.

I think they should start either using their engines for more than just one or 2 games (Since they spend so much time developing them, then creating the game etc etc) and do what other companies do, upgrade or mod it here and there and pump more games.

Quick question, Why was luminous engine created ? Crystal tools was a good engine for console games, was it because it was unfit for XIV ? That was my impression.

Isn't this what people wanted? Mindless zerg parties, lots of explosions, visual effects and the ability to jump, cause we don't want to play FFXI-2?

Well, here we have it. It surprises me that this wasn't anticipated.

I just have to see for myself if I am going to enjoy battle in 2.0, but I fear the worst.

Your bitter cynicism aside, no, this isn't what people wanted. This isn't even what SE wants as their final product, they've already said Battle calculations are all in revisions. There isn't even a viable tank in that cast of 3 classes, btw. SE ran Alpha with less than half of their available classes out, so of course battle is going to be pretty bland.

Also, blindly worshiping FFXI is just as idiotic as the knee-jerk reactions against it. For all of its good moments, it was and is still a deeply flawed game, mechanics wise.

Also, did you have a substantive point to make? Because it sounds like you just hate people who will likely wind up playing FFXIV, something I'd expect you'd have to get over before enjoying the game. I mean, you could pull it off, but I fear the worst.

That's your first mistake...you want it to be FFXI with a new coat of paint. MMOs don't work that way...newer MMOs will use the newest gameplay styles, it's why we have so many games using similar gameplay to each other now, because it works.

Even the FFXI of today is not the FFXI of yesterday, as those of us who played it continuously can attest. XI of yore will never be back, and that's a good thing.

"Will not be like XI" but we have the same races with different names, added a couple genders in there, and we use a lot of the same monsters. Our nation crests are similar and ability names are recycled. I was honestly disappointed when I saw so many visual similarities. Still hoping the game is good though.

The monsters are in every FF title, so are the abilities and magic spells, classes and most of the lore that XI and XIV share(Tho in XI it was way way less than it is on XIV, XI stands on its own 2 legs on this regard) as for races, one is copied from Tactics, humans have been in FF forever, as for galkas and tarus... I dunno i dislike them anyways. I always found it creepy, that SE has this thing with toddlers.

Did I touch a nerve, Hyrist? Look at you go!

But:


Not a word about the visual aspect, so since you know exactly what SE wants, may I assume that they sure wanted your screen to be filled with explosions to the point where you can hardly see what is going on? But if you want to talk (= speculate) battle dynamics: if you think that SE will deliver something different than what they ar showing us, then I think you will be in for a disappointment. We're going to zerg till we drop, buddy. Wooooooooooo!! Who needs strategy?!


Awww, is this you on your little soapbox? Cause you are sure not referring to what I had to say. And if you think you do, then think again.


I like the way you use my last line just to... get back at me? Smooth. Did you learn that in writing class, to end your work with a phrase that makes it look more substantial than it really is, namely a rant from an angry young gamer?

I made a perfectly fine point: I do not like what I see, but knowing what has been written on the forums it does not surpirse me at all. Clear enough for you?? Let me deal with FFXIV-2, alright? Now be a good kid and deal with my opinion.

Edited, Dec 30th 2012 7:10am by Woofdram

Whoa, relax buddy. It's just the internet, no need to take it serious.



The comparison Yoshi-P made was a bit better. XI was made with the same formula as the most popular MMO at the time, Everquest. 2.0 is doing the same, this time with WoW.

In the same way that FFXI was vastly different from Everquest, I have the same hope that 2.0 will use great ideas from WoW while becoming it's very different and unique game.

No one "didn't want XI-2", the company would be poaching their OWN players, when they want to poach from other games. They want to gain money, not shuffle it around.

FFXI wasn't a zerg? Since when? Everything was a zerg strat with a small caveat that held the zerg off until conditions were met. Story piece sets were the exception and they are here in FFXIV as well. Hard to call mob grinding 'strategy!' in any sense of the word, why are we expecting it from level 20 content?

But go ahead and blind yourself to that.

Also, knowing what SE wants is as simple as, you know, paying attention. There are numerous interviews, videos, letters from the producer that are pretty clear what they want with this game. I suggest you read up.




General statement, pal, some people view FFXI like it's gospel. Those same people can have their heads checked and their reproductive rights removed. Or at the very least the rose tinted glasses taken off. There was a lot that FFXI got right, but it wasn't the battle system.




Yep. And that's all you needed to say instead of walking in here trying to act like some snarky baddass. You got what you gave Woofdram, which was the point of duplicating your last line. You want to act like sarcastic trash, you'll get treated like sarcastic trash. I'm far beyond my tolerance limit of idiots who say "I told you so." before anythings actually happened yet. You want to send out red flags to tell SE to pull back on some of the crap you see, fine. I'm good with that. But do it in a manner that looks like feedback.

Insults are not critique, nor are they expressions that should be tolerated. As long as they do (*This includes first posts, Wint, not several posts down the chain.) I will continue to use them as a form of lash-back to pull attention to this underlining forum flaw.

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As far as my disposition, as you're new here, let me explain:

There was a section of the gaming community, even FFXI, and FFXIV's community, that's been trying to pull developers closer to the discussion table in terms of and openness and feedback at all levels of development. Sadly, for SE, it's taken a failed MMO for them to consider it, but oddly it's been working. In fact, many of your complaints you addressed have already been discussed with developers on the matter, which is why these videos come with a disclaimer about the battle system.

People who like to trash talk gaming companies, developers, and the community surrounding them, are severely counterproductive to this process. I agree with the running theory that it was, in fact the flack on BioWare Social Network, as well as other community over Dragon Age 2, and Mass Effect 3 endings that ultimately caused the BioWare Doctors - some of the best minds of this generation's gaming community, to retire from the field of Video Games all together.

That equates to a bunch of self-entitled whining brats harming the gaming community as a whole because they weren't happy with an end product, and decided to make hell for people who simply wanted to create something entertaining, and whoop, screwed up. Ok, it's a game. Want it fixed, talk it out.

So yeah. I got a nerve. A really big one that a lot of people step on. Usually, so long as someone's critique is substantive, I let it go. Yours wasn't, as the "I don't like this!" comment is pointless. State what you do like or would like to see.


Edited, Dec 30th 2012 11:19am by Hyrist

And we run into FFXI's other quintessential problem: It failed to evolve away from its typecast.

WoW too was inspired by Everquest style MMOs, but time wore on, it pulled itself away from conventions and even wrote it's own. Meanwhile, FFXI was still taking queues from a game that was already well into its age and growing out of date.

Granted, FFXI did break some ground with beseiged and campaign, but at it's core it had many problems that the crew never seemed to get addressing, and instead encouraged. Haste for one is an entirely broken and overbearing mechanic that takes precedence over all other mechanics. That's something that should have been balanced out or taken out rather than encouraging more and more haste. Heck, it is haste that created much of FFXI's zerg mechanics to begin with.

But back on topic, it is actually the repeat of this history many players are fearing when they hear WoW comparisons. Its ok to take inspiration from the thematic purpose, but Yoshida has to be prepare to evolve with the times on top of starting from a more solid foundation. The standard is going to keep rising and if ARR is going to survive the long term, they're going to have to meet it. Today's gamers aren't as forgiving as last generation.

I think the haste gear was more of a problem than the haste spell.

so youre saying no one playing FFXI was interested in FFXIV? yeah ok thats right we definitely wanted to stick with those graphics and be hindered by "ps2 limitations": until 2050!!

They seem to be hit or miss though, or at least not using them for more than one or two iterations of the game and we're getting some fairly cookie cutter games as a result. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the few who liked XIII and XIII-2, but its getting a little ridiculous. Those two (and I assume Lightning Returns) could be sold in the same box.

I have hope for Luminoous engine but I think we're years away from seeing that in a game.

You are a moron.... I say "How can you as a FFXI Player expect FFXIV to be FFX1-2 when the company itself, the creater of both XI and XIV, the president, the guy that cleans the bathrooms has stated countless times that XIV will not, and shall not be XI-2, it will be a more casual game than XI"

And you reply with "Are you saying people who played XI where not interested in XIV"..... It meters not if they where interested or not, what meters is that if those that where interested in XIV to be a direct sequel to XI..... where idiots, for the company itself, said "HEY THIS WILL NOT LIKE XI"

To be fair, MMO's were always a business, the market just changed when MMO's absolutely exploded 10 years ago.

And um, I agree: FFXIV will not, and should not, be FFXI-2. I don't think its fair to draw conclusions that FFXIV will be full of zerg fights, flashy artwork, and casual gameplay (which obviously insinuates a bad game), but time will tell what we actually get come ARR. And yeah, FFXI was full of tank-and-spank zerg fights. If you were lucky, you could stand near a foot and melee. If not, you were stuck playing BLM.

I want parts of it. I never found FFXI to be THAT hardcore. In parts, yes it was. Many of those parts I would leave behind though. For instance, the barriers for a new player to enjoy the game, like airship passes, kazham keys, chocobo license, not having a subjob at first, and needing to repeat hand-in quests to gain fame in an area just to do another quest.

These things and more just screamed chore, and scared away new players easily.

I'm hoping Yoshi-P is doing the early levels correctly (casual and user-friendly) while addign hardcore content once players are comfortable. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the design philosophy.

As far as "tank and spanks", 1.0 showed us that Y-P LOVES his hate resets, and other things during a fight to mix it up. Moogle was a bit simple (kite and zerg, then tank) but Garuda and Ifrit were great fights that required everyone to pay attention and know what was happening or die. Most of the added content was like this as well, and Y-P didn't suddenly change his vision for FFXIV.

And if you think "hardcore is gone" you obviously never fought against the imperial invasions trying to get a silly hat at the end of the games life. It was a flashback to FFXI (and not really in a good way haha)

Imperials would spawn in an area at a random time, completely random and the wait could be upwards of 10-12 hours. Then for an unknown time, level 50 imperials were everywhere, along with a Magiteck NM and 7? other high level imperial nms and I think they all had haste and would kill you easily. You had to kill the Magiteck for a chance at the drop, but all the imperials would link so it required multiple parties for this one chance at a drop. Parties ended up cheesing the fight (Leashing) but if a proper loot system had been in place, it might have worked as intended and required jolly cooperation.

How is me saying that the majority of MMO players are not interested in XIV because of the reputation XI has, equals me saying XI players where not interested in XIV..... please enlighten me.

because you didnt saythat.. you said:

"The majority of MMO players where and are still not interested in FFXIV for one reason.... FFXI :)"


if youd have said "the majority of MMO players are not interested in XIV because of the REPUTATION XI has"

the first time then Id have understood your point and kept my mouth shut. considering I know a LOT of ppl who quit or wasnt interested in FFXI because it was "too hard" (lmao.. i think they just suck but yeah i know first hand that the statement you made is indeed true so I wouldnt have argued THAT point)

Oh, I can see what you're saying for sure. Some hardcore-style stuff is great.

But FF11 was literally that way from level 5 onward when it released. Want to level? You'd better have a BST/WHM or be one of the magic four classes (BLM/BRD/RDM/WHM) or else you're in for a long ass wait.

Then there was the gearing "requirements" which meant, for a warrior, taking a break every 3-5 levels to grind out several hundred thousand gil (or more) just to ensure you had the best gear and then hopefully a party would deign to invite you.

As I told a friend of mine, who later echoed my sentiment, with FF11, it was like you spent more time preparing to play the game than actually playing the game.

My time in 14 said things were heading in another direction, and my sense of how things are going to be in ARR is cautiously optimistic. If they can evoke the feeling I had in early WoW or that I get while questing in TOR then I'll be happy.

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 6:59pm by Quor

That's cause you started playing in '04 Cat. I had quit before then, when a copy of Phalanx would run you 200ish tops, and the concept of "jp onry" hadn't even been invented yet (most of my parties as WAR were with JP players, since they didn't have the same anti-WAR stigma most NA players did. Also I was polite, and not a dick, despite my lack of Japanese language).

I had a friend at that time who leveled up BLM in fishing gear. He made it to 37, so it would be a sub for his main. In fishing gear.

Meanwhile, the level 5 great axe would run you around 35,000, which is an insane amount for any first-time warrior. Farming for that meant you could buy every BLM and WHM spell from level 1 to level 20 easily.

I have no idea what FFXI you were playing.

http://zeusls.llima.net/download/ffxiupdatehistory.html





There were issues from the very, absolute, total beginnings in 2003. And being someone who also started inside of the first month of North American release, I can definitely attest to this translation's accuracy, remembering these issues from the get go.

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 10:42pm by Satisiun