Adventure: The Japanese point of viewFollow

On the Japanese side of the official forums, a new thread recently popped up discussing the current state of things. ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/45222-みんなで出来る冒険がしたい！ ) Interestingly, there is one thing most posters agree on: the dire lack of "adventure". I'm a little surprised, I have to admit; I never considered the Japanese to be an especially adventurous lot.

According to one poster, one of the basic problems is that the game has been streamlined to death. Leveling is a joke, but still tedious enough to irritate right because it's so completely without challenge that it has become nothing more than a meaningless nuisance. There's no need or merit to exploration either, because you can always teleport even to places you've never "discovered" on your own. Cosequently most of the landscape was a complete waste to implement; the majority of players will never see it.

Moreover, the ultimate special skill of the big bosses seems to be "Tedium Flare". They simply die without dropping anything useful until you give up.(*) And because there's no lockout timers, linkshells will do "the runs" it in blocks of 10. What an adventure. Yay! We finally killed Garuda. Just like half an hour ago. And an hour ago. And 1.5 hours ago. And two hours ago. The first page of the thread ends with 「どう見ても、作業ですもんね。 」(Anyway you look at it, it is work).

There's many other posts that (very politely) point out things that perhaps might be less optimal than what some of us eternal supporters expected. Perhaps. Which is the Japanese equivalent to the raging German kid ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0 ). Perhaps, however, the thread title says it's all: 「みんなで出来る冒険がしたい！」(We want to adventure).

I agree. And unless Yoshi gives me that feeling of danger, excitement, threat, and mystery I crave for in a game, not a hundred days of welcome-back-but-don't-spoil-our-official-forums will bring me back. And for some reason it's very encouraging to know that some people on the other side of the world feel the same.




(*) Picture this. Ifrit, Moogle and Garuda boasting around a campfire. Ifrit:"I died 54 times today. And dropped a total of 3 totems ^.^/". Good King: "Ha! I only dropped staves and rods. I almost laughed myself to death imagining those meleeing mages. ^m^/" Garuda, with a smile: "Oh boys, you'll never learn. Simply give them a way to win due to an exploit, and they'll be finished within an week's time. And never bother you again. -.^/"

Thank you Rin for posting this from the JP side. I was always curious about their thoughts of FFXIV.

Streamlining: I say streamlining is a very good thing. Things like reducing redundant text, redundant confirmation, lag, buggy quest, etc.

Leveling: The actual process shouldn't equate to a life or death struggle that requires 100% focus every single encounter. But each enemy type should at least have one or two unique characteristics that would make things more difficult should you not address that. I just want more roadblocks during each job/class progression. Artifact quest, class/job quests, genkais, story expansions granting access to new areas, skill quests, etc.

Teleports & World: Agree with the teleporting before exploring rant. Doesn't matter how sexy or varied the world is. If there isn't some purpose other than leveling. Few will really explore an area more than a few times.

Bosses & Endgame content: What boss in any rewarding game drops anything until you approach the giving up point? Lockout timers are poop. They are designed to keep you playing a particular event longer over real time. That is the whole point of low drop rates. Lockout timers are redundant and only serve at keeping you from playing content you enjoy. If I enjoy doing a particular content but am forced to either not play or do things I don't enjoy over the course of wait times, that's work. Nothing is work if you enjoy it. This goes for real life too. If you don't like spamming content, here's a tip. Pace yourself and only do something when you want. The only thing I wish SE would do is raise the token systems progression a tad.

Instances & Fun from the outset: My main gripe with mmos in general is this. Instance the most difficult content where timing and responsiveness matters. Things like pvp, bcnms, dynamic story transitions, and hardcore raids. Other than that, instances shouldn't exist in an mmo period. For leveling if people don't want cc. Guildleves can serve them well.

I understand this is an rpg and with that comes progression. The best gear, hardest content, best skills, etc should come later. But that doesn't mean types of content should be locked until max level. There should be varied content from level one to cap. Pvp, dungeons, massive PvE, minigames, story, etc. The argument may be made why would people care about that if the highest tier things are at cap? With proper itemzation, a true rpg fanatic would care. Why not make that level 15 dungeons drop the best pieces/skills/spells for a job/class at level 20? Take it a step further and make those items r/e and only drop items for the job/class you are doing the content. This could alleviate job/class stacking. To someone who doesn't care about mid progression they might ignore this and be gimp for awhile. But for the serious rpg fanatic who wants to be optimal & proud. This content allows that sense of progression.

That is the big problem with mmorpgs everywhere. They allow you to buy or bypass content. Some people buy gears, some levels, etc. The currency isn't always gil or gold. But if the avenue is there some will pursue the road of least resistance. It doesn't directly affect the by the book adventurer. Would you pay for a vacation cruise if you could have the memories implanted of you having a good or bad time? Or would you rather experience that first hand? Stop the PL, stop the buying it forward mentality. For the love of god, make this world an enjoyable adventure from the outset. If people don't like the adventure SE provides. There are many other vacation cruises to sail on.

Edited, May 12th 2012 7:20pm by sandpark

Lol Kanekitty.
I miss Tanaka sometimes....
Does that make things easier on you?

So Tanaka is posting as a Japanese player and trolling the forums?

Clearly what we need is a adjustment in 10x more XP tnl and tedious lockout timers to fix the game rather than content.

Adventure is in playstyle, if your players want adventure they would not rush to "endgame" and they would go out exploring. I do it, I'm sure others do. If you are obsessed with getting to the end you will not have time to stop and enjoy the ride.

Edited, May 13th 2012 9:20am by Levish

Perhaps if FFXIV didn't force everyone to the internet to figure out utter basics at every turn because of lazy design or "PS3 limitations", people would be less inclined to go looking for everything online.

It's an unfortunate precedent, but one FFXIV had no problem supporting from launch even until now.

Edited, May 13th 2012 11:07am by hexaemeron

When I had to get my Bard artifact armour in FFXI, I had a map of the area to which I had to go, I had another, marked map available online, and I had a step-by-step walkthrough on the other half of my screen. I was warned that there may be a truesight notorious monster roaming the area, but it was another thing having to actually navigate around it. I was shown all the turns and hallways I had to follow, but it was another thing to actually have to confront them. Avoiding those orcs, veering around that tangled labyrinth, cowering in the corner as Invisible began to run out, getting attacked and drinking a reraise-potion just in time: those were all things that made it an adventure.

Having all the available information does not necessarily excise the adventure from an equation. If it does, if the outcome of events can be rendered entirely dependable and can be mathematically calculated far in advance, then the scenario was rather too simplistic in the first place.

^^ It's already in the beta but apparently on release they already gave a few thousand scripted. I'm going to wait and see as well but for 59.99 and no monthly to me it was worth the purchase. If you buy it now there's a server stress test on the 14th not sure on any betas after that but you get early access to them. :)

The point I was trying to make was that if for whatever reason you failed in your search for your AF quest it was because you sucked at following directions and dodging mobs. Every last bit of discovery was taken care of in the guide.

I mean our idea of adventure may be two completely different concepts but to me adventure includes discovery, not just following a set of instructions. That's something that's dead for any modern MMO now, it's never coming back.

I was just playing TERA for a little while and I didn't know where to find a specific mob I needed to kill for quest. It's easy to click the link in the quest text and have your map marked, but instead of that I just wandered around gathering mats and moving through uncharted areas until I found them. It isn't impossible to adventure even in games where it's easy to get hints or even be on cruise control the entire time. Unless you're in a group with someone who's already looked up info then it's on the player to choose how much they want their hand held.

Since this discussion has leaned towards what constitutes adventure. I'd like to share my point of view. There is no way to avoid information short of ignoring it. Ignoring or adhering to that info doesn't affect the adventure. Following information by the book only depletes the mystery. Adventure to me means participating in a journey & seeing how that adventure affects you on a personal level. To use a real life example. Four groups of people in different cars are going to drive from Texas to New York. The first two groups use gps, the third group prints a map. And the fourth group is going to wing it by visual cues and signs. The likelihood of the four groups traveling to their destination & having the exact same journey are slim to none. Many variables such as nature, getting lost, arguments, alcohol, etc can throw a wrench into what is planned and chaos ensues. The more people involved increases the odds at an adventure changing for better or worse. In there lies the beauty of it all. We are all individuals with different strengths, weaknesses, desires, reflexes, humor, anger, & wits. Even if SE had every ounce of info spoonfed to us in game. The experience would not be uniform because of our humanity. Do you go skydiving without learning the basics first?

Let Kanekitty hate me. Let someone out there love me. But don't segregate us into a world of mostly instances. Don't allow this bypassing of the chaos by allowing buying it forward. Living in a protected bubble might make some comfortably numb. But you can't truly experience the adventure of feelings unless it is shared. Adventure lives inside you, not in online guides. Reading up may spur your imagination or better prepare you? As the saying goes, seeing is believing.

The kingdom of god is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood & stone. Spilt a piece of wood... and I am there. Lift a stone... and you will find me.

I don't mind adventure as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

FFXI's Extreme Example:

ZM4- The Temple of Uggalepih
In-Game Instructions [Paraphrased]: Find the secret of it.

There's no hints to needing lanterns or a paintbrush, or anything like that. That's way too little information. So little, it makes it un-fun.

FFXIV's Extreme Example:
Level 30 Rank Quest
In Game-Instructions [Paraphrased]: Go to (38,19) of Eastern Thanalan west of Halitali and fight the three Amal'jaas that you met in the cutscene. You should bring four party members.


That's the other side. Way too much information.

---

I would like what they do in the raids, give a general location of the dungeon, what you may need in there in order to complete it, and a hint or two. The raids do this pretty well, they give you a hint on what's inside, and what you need from there. I hope they put that in the scenario quests in the future.

I think it's because there's something wrong with the state of WoW and the other MMOs on the market.

The genre can only be made so easy and be modified to possess so much mass-appeal before veterans inevitably start losing interest. WoW taught MMO makers that they need not be "niche" endeavours and, ever since, developers have been (erroneously, in my opinion) chasing derivative techniques and implementing micro-transactions wherever they could, hiring psychologists and market-analysts when they should have been focusing on writers, artists, and other creative team members.

Games have always been made, to an extent, to generate a profit, but the balance between creativity and expression, on one hand, and corporate marketing decisions, on the other, tended to remain more equalized in the past. As games became increasingly popular, game companies became self-aware, in a sense, and began to design their products with profit far above anything else. It's how WoW started selling un-tradable vehicles for $20, then un-tradable pets for $20, and then tradable pets for $20. It's how we got multiple DLC packages for Final Fantasy 13 part 2. And it's also why adventure fades from MMOs.

Agreed. Like I said, once you take off the training wheels and start grouping you'll run into people who probably did enough research to know how to play your class better than you do, what the ideal comp is for whatever encounter you're going to face, ect.

About the most 'adventure' I got from endgame in any MMO I've played was WoW PTR(test server). My guild were always excited to hit the PTR and it was refreshing to go in blind with no DBM hand-holding. If you remove all the adventure, players will end up gravitating to the game that suits their needs based on their favorite mechanic be it combat system, storyline, aesthetics or what have you.

As some other posters alluded to FFXI had this. It had adventure.

Why?

1. The art direction/varied and distinct zones.

2. Weight/difficulty of the game. Groups took skill, and soloing took even greater skill.

3. The quality of music.

4. The group dynamic and the ability to make zones "exclusive" by including high level mobs.

5. Weapons mattered and armor mattered.

For all of it's faults no other MMO or even game came close to providing this sort of atmosphere.

However the things that made FFXI a great adventure, were things that made it a chore to play. Namely #5; having to farm for Shihei and gear.

The revised FFXI with GoV and FoV ruin the challenge a bit, BUT it was cool running through Promys, and soloing my Dragon AF helm; just being able to experience the content that was there.

...And that's was I imagined FFXIV to be. Just an easier FFXI. All of the exploration, but a little less of the endless grinding and more rewarding of skill.

Coerthas out of all of the zones, almost had it.

I'm a little excited for and will play GW2, but out of all of the videos, it seems like any other MMO. We'll see.

I think the new maps in 2.0 should restore a sense of adventure, hopefully.

I only partially agree with #1. Yes the zones are varied, and XI succeeded here but in the same vein they failed at doing the same with mobs. Almost completely wrecks the fact that you have a zone that makes you really feel like you traveled across a continent when you get there only to be confronted by the same old crab using the same old skin.

#2 has always bothered me and while I'll try to keep this topic from steering into the 'what is the definition of videogame skill', XI takes no more 'skill' than almost any other MMO. RNG is king. Nuff said.

I completely agree with #3 and I have yet to find any music from any other MMO (sandy bagpipes aside) that has inspired me as much as XI did.

Well, that might be true of an RPG with fixed, offline characters, but we're dealing with an MMO filled with individually customized characters of diverse interests and tastes. For one thing, you can't all be Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth. Furthermore, some people like to craft, some people like to gather, some people like role-play their character with other like-minded individuals. It's not all about killing Ifrit 500 times to get all the gear you want all the time.

But people do want to be Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth. But not an exact replica, they want a spiritual personification. They want to play iconic statues hence the earlier cry for jobs. The FF characters behind the offline FF series is what gives a face to the memory of a job. Just as swtor tried to let players experience seeing what it was like to be Boba Fett, Han Solo, etc.

Yoshi's analogy hits his point dead on, but the end result is wrong. Themeparks don't change until the original designed wishes it, & you the visitor have no control over course of the rides. What the players really want is identityparks which the japanese poster seems to be trying to say. They want that from actual friends and rivals and they want npcs to recognize their actions taken upon the world. To get that identity each player must be given select tools to modify the themepark slightly but not demolish it and rebuild from scratch.

Where is Identity in XIV?
By that I mean content that allows the user to alter an ending or change the perception of npcs on a short to long basis. How many things are allowed to be tinkered with and personalized to feel achievement? The free company system has potential imo.

The games building the biggest hype past or present are the ones that provide or promise of identity in different themepark attractions. I'm just listing these three but each mmo brings some promise of identity to the table.
Tera- Combat System and the political PvP System
GW2- Dynamic Events and multiserver PvP
Swtor- Dialogue Wheel

Of course not, but the poster using a bad comparison was speaking about videogames. Gamers do not wanna play any themepark game where no customization or alternate paths are not available. No one said anything about designing games, I said tinkering within select parameters in the provided system. When a process is too straightforward in games with no variations. It is commonly referred to as "on rails". Interesting branching paths, yes please.

But what some call "fluid" others call "hand-holding." I'd like a game that treats me as though I'm at least intelligent enough to cast a cursory glance around a zone in order to determine whether it might suit my needs. Wasn't it this whole treadmill and signposting mentality that was causing an unadventurous game (and this thread) in the first place? XD

Oh wow! We actually have a serious but still civil discussion here. To chime in again, I
think what the Japanese poster wanted to express (that's how I read his lines anyway) was
that players in a MMO do *not* want to go to a themepark, but to *be* Mickey Mouse; or at
least someone that is important for the game world and has a purpose. You are not important
for Disneyland. Sure, you can spend a week in there and still enjoy the icecream, but ultimately
it's unlikely you build "personal attachment" with a Jet Coaster. You just get bored after the
100th ride on the Cutter's Cry Lunatic Lorry.

MMOs, or better: MMORPGs are, in the JP OP's opinion, a different story altogether. It is
true that sometimes a little diversion here, a bit of a sidewalk there (fishing, raids) are cool
and dandy. But nobody wants to fish or raid for the rest of his life.

I think - and I am well aware that it's a little unfair to put words in another's mouth when most
of you have no chance to check whether I rightfully do so - that the Japanese OP wanted a
deep, involving, encompassing and, to a certain degree, "linear" storyline. That's why it's called
"storyline". Because it's a line. It has a start, and some very cool, mysterious and alluring end
on the horizon for us to discover. Step by step. Page by page. Like a book.

Yoshi provided us with the 15-line abstract of the story of Eorzea, and hoped that we would be
intelligent enough to take the long road and slowly read the book. In principle, that's a noble
standpoint. Give people the freedom to do what they want. He just didn't realize that group
dynamics in a MMO don't work that way. If there's a fast track to the top, you are expected to
take it. And you better do, or you'll be playing alone for a looong looong time.

Edit:
Reading through that post of mine, I can't help but thinking it's quite confused and contradictory.
At least we all agree that *something* is missing. I think it's the feeling of being a small but crucial
cog in mankind's last-hope Final Fantasy steampunk train out of Midgard. Or something like that.

Edited, May 15th 2012 2:32pm by Rinsui

The theme park analogy is also flawed because unless you live within 10 miles of one and have a season pass, you usually don't visit one except once or twice a year. The nearest theme park to us when I was growing up was a two hour drive away, and daily tickets were $15 a person, so if the family visited the theme park, it was an event. And I still don't visit that park aside from once a year because it's still over an hour away and the price has gone up to $30 with a Coke can.

Disneyworld is especially a bad analogy, because it's an eight hour drive, or for most people, a plane flight away.

So what do you do when you get there? You try to cram as much into that one day as you possibly can. You want to ride all the rides, especially all the coasters with their hour long lines, eat funnel cakes, watch a live show, hit some of the less popular non-coaster rides, get your picture taken with Mickey, go through a museum, etc. You will ideally spend 12 hours there and be exhausted by the time you leave, but satisfied because you're not coming back for another year.

That's how an offline game should be. An event.

An MMO? That should be more like the local big city park. A short drive away, so if you want to walk the hiking trail one day, you can do so, or you can visit the flower garden, or play on the swingset, or eat at the cafe, etc. Still plenty of stuff to do, but with the content accessible enough that you don't feel the overwhelming need to do everything at once.

And if you're like my friends, you can be Mickey Mouse Fenrir in costume and take pictures there, too.

Not to overstay my welcome, but on the Theme Park topic, I think it has to do with quality over quantity. Disneyland vs. Magic Mountain.

Disneyland only has about 5 or 6 rides I'm really interested in. But the feeling of being transported to other worlds within the park is often times more than enough. Magic Mountain has awesome rides, but not much atmosphere.

I have to want to feel like I belong. I want a mog house, I want recognizable spells. I want recognizable classes. I want an AH. I want to experience and be a part of a Final Fantasy world. Everything else (chocobo races, crafting, etc) is ancillary. Those other things, like a iced lemonade or churro add to an already great experience.

A funnel cake after the Superman ride shouldn't be the highlight of the day.

An MMO world should be familiar (especially in the case of FF), yet fantasy and well done. (FFXVI in the beginning deviated too much from what defined a FF game).

Plus for MMOS, there has to be a reward for EVERYTHING. Rewards in the form of random drops. Rewards for skill. Rewards for time. Rewards for quests. Stats should mean something. Gear should mean something. Abilities should mean something.

You should be looking forward to every. single. level.

This is a lazy example but:

Level 1 - 5 Should go by in a blink.

Level 5 oooh new ability
Level 6 oooh I can wear that new hat, oooh random drop
Level 7 oooh I can go to that new area, new sword!
Level 8 oooh I can buy that cool robe, go to that other area and gained another ability
Level 9 oooh boots! and another new area!
Level 10 oooh I can become a Knight, and get a certificate for a airship ride, I get 2 new abilities and a shield.

From there you lengthen the grind, hide the grind through public quests, regular quests and random drops. Have tons of gear to choose from and make abilities even more powerful each time you level from here on out. And you should feel powerful in the world as you level.

You need quests that put you on a linear path through the world and are non-repetitive. Meaning guildleves have to go. They KILL adventure. Once I ride Pirates of the Carribean, sure I'd go again later, but 3 times is too much, I'm on to the Haunted Mansion.

I haven't played FFXIV in a few months, but if I logged back in I'd be stuck in Camp Horizon for at least a couple more levels and that's just unacceptable.

It doesn't even matter what you say, surreptitiously integrating somebody wearing a fur-suit into the closing remarks of a post wins the argument, if for no other reason than pure distraction. It's like the Internet Master's version of, "Hey, look over there!"

I'd attempt the heroic manoeuvre myself, but I'm dreadfully afraid of what Google might see fit to return should I go looking into the woods, as it were.

That particular friend also did a kickass Carbuncle once, but I don't think he has the pics on the internet any more.

Come to think of it, haven't seen much by way of 14 cosplay yet. Seems like cosplaying a newbie would be easy, just need a few white burlap sacks and some rope...