Maybe it was just my server, but WoW certainly had a lot more irritating ass hats than practically any other game I've played. It's not based off a week of playing, but 3 years.
Not really. I had more than my fair share of idiots in PUGs in FFXI as well as in WoW. The lack of wide-area chat channels in FFXI just meant that you were exposed to the shout spam idiocy gradually as you wandered through the various cities. At its peak, if you had consolidated all of the shout spam in San d'Oria (which was absolutely notorious for idiocy on Siren when I played), Bastok, Windurst, Jeuno, and Aht Urghan into one channel, you would have wound up with the FFXI equivalent to WoW's trade chat. If you had taken all of the asinine shout spam in Valkurm or Qufim and broadcast it to the entire zone instead of restricting it to /sh radius, you would have wound up with something not unlike Barrens chat. Just because the chat limitations didn't allow it to be seen to its full extent doesn't mean it wasn't present.
While true, you can make claims against characters, and it'll be enforced account wide, there has to be a definitive proof that they did ninja anything.
If we're talking about people rolling on gear they can't use in dungeon runs (either because they can't equip it or because it's not suited to their class/spec), or exempting themselves from the loot conventions to get their grubby mitts on BoE drops, there are solutions. Master looter is one of them. If it's that much of a concern for you, don't run without lootmaster set. Generally speaking, my experience with WoW ninjas in 5-mans was extremely, extremely rare. If you're running raids without master loot, you're a bonehead. If you won't use the tools put in place to help you protect yourself, you've got no one to blame but
If you're talking about people scamming trades, there are ways to create the proof. It's a simple as a /tell before the trade saying, "I'm trading you <x> for <y>, right?" Don't make the trade unless they respond with confirmation. Then, if they bugger off with your goods, the GM has the chat log and the trade transaction to confirm the activity, and in most cases it results in a perma-ban.
All too often, I've read, and witnessed, ninja characters going unpunished, because they "won the roll" and were just as eligible for the item as anyone else. It's an obvious ninja when everyone disagrees that character should get it, but when a GM actually comes and says "Oh, well, he won it fair and square" it kind of puts a damper on the whole "GM will take care of it"
Because technically, they did win it fair and square. If you want to operate a loot system differently from what the coded game mechanics offer, you can run with a master looter. If the party leader doesn't want to run with master looter, you can stay in the party and take your chances or leave. Generally speaking, upgrades in WoW aren't so hard to come by that any piece of gear in a 5-man is going to make or break you. Again, if you're PUGing raids or your guild doesn't raid with master looter, that's your problem. Get organized.
As for abuse? I've had to GM call about it sometimes, and the normal response is "/ignore" and well, you can do that, problem being, /ignore isn't account wide, so it's pretty easy to just create an alt and another alt, you get the picture.
Switching to an alt to bypass the ignore on another character is an actionable offense. You ignore the first character. They log to an alt and send you another /w and you respond with a warning they if they contact you from another alt, they'll be reported for harassment and then you put the second character on ignore. The third character sending you a /w from that account will be the one that gets them suspended/banned. If you petition a GM because meanie-head guy is being mean, the GM will tell you to put them on ignore. If you petition a GM and tell them that the player is bypassing your filters by switching to alts, that player will be penalized.
After things like that, even with pretty firm evidence it was the same person, I was told to just put them on /ignore and move on.
You have to be assertive with the GM. If someone is bypassing your ignore list by switching to alts and the GM just tells you to put them on ignore, you point out to the GM that the WoW ignore list has an extremely limited number of slots and it shouldn't be necessary for you to use up to 10 of them to deal with the behavior of one person.
Maybe my servers GMs were crappy, but to be honest, I don't think it's a very good positive that you -can- do that. In fact, it's glaring weakness, in my opinion.
I just think it's an exceptionally lame criticism. QQ people misbehave QQ. Poeple didn't ninja in WoW because they could just log to another character with no one the wiser. As fast as leveling could be in WoW, it took time to level a toon (typically over 200 hours from 1-80). It's not like characters were a disposable vehicle for idiocy. It's just a BS argument.
Also, while it is a minority, compared to the vast majority, I'm sorry to say, it is still more than any other game I've played. Not necessarily to me personally, but you can see it in Trade, Dalaran General.
Ya, and as above, if chat channels were zone-wide and all cities shared one global channel, it would have been the same in FFXI.
As for your point about Age demographics and the like, I disagree. There's a lot less incentive to play by the rules when you can just switch characters, or even change your name, and not even have to worry about GM intervention, due to the somewhat lax approach to that behaviour.
If someone needs strict incentive to play by the rules, they're going to try to break those rules no matter what you do. You don't need to look to daddy to solve all of your problems, just like you don't need to look to a game developer to protect you from every possible angle of idiocy. You're given tools to address those kinds of things; make use of them and if they're inadequate, pursue the matter assertively. It also helps if you develop a slightly thicker skin so that something like developing multiple characters as a viable option doesn't become such an issue for you.
Well, as far as I've witnessed, it's exactly as I described. I don't doubt your interpretation though, it's quite possible. However, playing on the servers I did, I ran into a significantly more spam, rants and generally bad attitudes on WoW.
I've no reason to lie. I still play the game to this day, and enjoy it. So why on earth would I make up claims for no reason?
Oh, I fully understand the rules of Master Loot and I don't think I've ever been in a raid, PUG or otherwise, that hasn't made use of it, but thanks for inferring I'm a bonehead. I rarely lead groups in WoW so I don't have the option of doing so in HCs and the like, which is where the majority of ninjas strike.
In fact, there's not many 5 mans that will run with a Master Looter, simply because most HCs are PuG and why on earth you'd trust someone you most likely don't know to be fair in dealing out loot, is beyond me.
Simply put, I've personally heard about through in game friends, or witnessed myself, a hell of a lot more Ninjas over loot than I have ever done in FFXI.
Also, in regards to your trade story. I've had a friend who actually had something like you describe happen to him. He got his things back, but the guy didn't disappear, at all. In fact, you hear a lot of it on trade, about people cheating people, usually the same names. Maybe the GMs suck on my server?
Yes, they did win it fair and square, exactly why they'll not do anything about it. Inside 5 Mans most won't run with Master Looter for reasons I indicated earlier, which is predictably the places where you hear the majority of Ninjas happening.
The reason why? Because they're on a character that really doesn't have to have a good reputation, because if worse comes to worse, they can reroll, use an alt or the kicker, change their name.
Also, I'd appreciate if you stop being so damn passive aggressive and poking insults at me, and trying to undermine my claims by insinuating stuff you have no idea to be true. It's rather rude.
Telling me the procedure will not in the slightest change the fact that a guy went through 6 alts after being ignored by me repeatedly, with the GM telling me to put him on /ignore and never actually following it up.
You can believe it didn't happen, but like I say, I actually enjoy WoW, so I've no reason to lie. The guy never got banned, didn't even get suspended, and who knows, maybe he went on to bother someone else and never get anything done.
In this specific case, I made it clear that I wanted the character warned about his behaviour at the very least, so it wasn't a failing on my behalf.
Yet again, with your passive aggressive attitude. It's rude, and frankly, I think you need to get the hell off your high horse.
I'm not whining about the devs not protecting me, and I'm not at all bothered by peoples desire to have multiple characters.
In fact, I'm actually half in support of it, I just don't see the need of enabling a system like WoWs, where you can create as many characters as you wish, and in my opinion, escape the negative actions you've committed, by a sanctioned system.
I have thick enough skin, to not turn around and start insulting people because they have a differing opinion. Can you claim the same? Edited, Jun 30th 2009 4:28pm by ScorpionEx