UI design, will SE follow like the rest of the sheep?Follow

I'm a big fan of FFXI's current UI. Nearly everything is out of the way unless I need it, which keeps the focus on where I want it to be: the game world.

I am hoping for a refinement with lots of available customization for those who want it. If people want to add action bars or whatever, give them the opportunity, but keep the functionality and unobtrusiveness of the current UI, please.

That being said, there are some changes that I hope for:

Seperating out chat and battle text is a must, and something I have wanted in FFXI forever.

Make mice usable but NOT mandatory. I find I really like having both hands on the keyboard. I dislike using a mouse now, and I don't want to have to re-adapt for FFXIV.

Easier to edit macros are also needed, with a wider variety of things we can do. And give us "gear sets" to make things faster.. having one line on a macro say "Enfeebling gear" that changes in all enfeebling gear would be nice (assuming we have gear swaps in FFXIV)

Allow us to move where various things show up. Like, if I wanted my macro bar to pop open on the left side instead of the top.

DON'T have hidden menus that pop up and cover important things like spell effects! If I open my macro bar, I still need to see if I have shadows up!


In the end, don't expect too much of a difference. SE will need to make a UI that works with the PS3. A lot of the reasons for XI's UI "clunkiness" was to make it work on a standard (non-HD) television... and you can use a PS3 on a standard TV. Because of that, there is a good chance that the XIV UI will also be clunky... but hopefully they will make it so that we can customize based on our setup and our needs this time.

Okay here's one for you. Why use a character picture when nothing is fine? Why make it always circle? Why always place it at the top left in every game? Why use the same shaped hotkeys? Why not circles or triangles? Why not a square minimap? Why not a vertical exp bar? Why not place hot keys at the top? Why? Because game devs are scared to even dare show originality when they can steal something else that a big flashy number like...over 10Million players were seduced by. To me, this is a big turn off and Tells me the game will be just like the others Only thinking About how to entice the biggest number in the smallest amount of time. One thing i forgot to mention too, is quest givers. Similiar in every mmo too, just a guy a chat log designed deliberately to be spammed through because they show no pride in their games story. Obviously i'm not denying half of ffxis quest were pointless to the hardcore gamer, but they all had a meaning and made the story fanatics happy to read, and even treated to some awesome cs's at times. This is probably a better example of how something as simple as the ui can be meaningful too.

Although I hate to play devils advocate on this one, I do like to back and prove things I say;

So squares=keyboard, why do they all have to be more or less the exact same height and width, FFXI uses nice big and shaded boxes.

As for shapes, there are many MMOs that use square maps, or as far as RPGs, borderless or faded ones too. Why does it HAVE to be circle with a dark outline?

Kingdom Hearts, an SE game, uses the portrait system and yet they STILL managed to pull it off without looking samey, it had a fresh appealing look on health and mana. Why? again a varitions of shapes sizes and something a little more appealing then lineslineslineslines.

This is probably a good time to point out as well, if this is a good MMO standard, why have other genres stolen it too? Take a look at Hellgate: London believe it or not, the game is a Shooter.


Anyway, I'm glad I got through to alot of you, I was aware that initial reaction would be, STFU. But this has made for a good debate

1. I have no character picture.
2. My healthbars are located near the center bottom of the screen... and they are health spheres not bars.
3. My hotkeys are hexagon shaped in a, and I only have 12 out of my 52 abilities shown on screen (for long cooldowns) in a 3x4 beehive shape.
4. I have a square minimap.
5. Because a vertical EXP bar would be stupid... Actually a EXP bar in the UI is stupid to begin with.
6. Because that would be stupid and would obscure the game world in front of your character.


Or, you know... These elements were in MMOs before WoW (And hell, in videogames before MMOs). You know, games like...

Everquest
Runescape
Ultima Online
Asheron's Call
Lineage
Dark Age of Camelot
Anarchy Online
Ultima Online 2
Phantasy Star Online
Ragnarok Online
Maple Story
Final Fantasy XI
Shadowbane
Eve Online
Lineage II
City of Heroes

Did you know all those games came out before World of Warcraft? Did you know that some of them, have an almost identical UI to the one World of Warcraft used?

Your ignorance of videogame history is showing. If you are going to claim that World of Warcraft's UI is being copied, it might be notable to point out that they copied a stock UI which was already being used by 80% of the MMOs before it.

I can not think of a single UI element in World of Warcraft, that was not already in very heavy usage in MMOs already, or was something Blizzard took DIRECTLY from addon developers for their game.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 7:36pm by Karelyn

The major reason why FFXI's UI is so sparse is because it was designed to be played at 640x480 resolution and no higher than that. Then toss in the fact that it's primary input device is a PSX controller and you can see why FFXI is designed completely differently than PC games that commonly have resolutions double that and use a keyboard and mouse. This isn't some design conspiracy, it merely illustrates that each developer is developing software that can help the player use the product with the input tools and screens they have.

EDIT - Standard TV's here in the states might be 720x480 now that I think about it.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 6:02pm by baelnic

Yeah I think SE does a good job with aesthetics and lay-out but I'm not always convinced by the input parts of the UI.

I'm one of those few that actually liked FFXI clunky UI. So i won't be picky on SE's new design as long as they keep macro's. I had everything macro'd for my whm and brd, i love macros. Yeah . . . macros, please. ;)

The best idea is lots of customization. An easily customized client will allow people to tweak it for optimal keyboard/mouse use or optimal controller use as they need.

Also, don't most PS2 people play using a keyboard though? I remember nubs who did and you'd ask them something and 3 minutes later they'd come out with some poorly worded hurried response.


Also, WoW's interfact actually wouldn't be *that* horrible for controller. Sure you can't turn like you can with a mouse, but you can assign buttons to your bar keys, you can stick macros in your bar, it would work fine.

If I had to play WoW on 360, I'd set up L-trigger and R-trigger to be my main two actions, A, B, X, Y to be my other actions, and L and R top buttons to be my modifier keys, (like Alt+ and Ctrl+). That gives me 18 actions right there, and that should be enough for most classes to do decently well.

Or heck, use the L & R top buttons to scroll bars and you could have well over 60 actions.

(I've never actually played WoW on 360, but that seems like it'd work!)

If SE plans on having FFXIV be faster than 11, they will have to have a revamped UI.

Some things which are almost guaranteed to be seen in the 14 UI:

TWO chat logs, one for chat, and one for combat information.
A real time minimap or a scaled down map with real time updates.
Time remaining on buffs/debuffs.
A complete revamp of the part/alliance display.
A change to the macros/bars paging.

I really liked the FFXI macros page because they were hidden. I did not like that I had to hold ctrl or alt in order to activate them. In WOW i use over 40 keybinds. NONE of them are shown on screen except select few things I click such as food and some consumables. I am almost certain FFXIV is going to have SUBSTANTIALLY more abilities than 11 and on shorter cooldowns with much faster gameplay. Menus are inherently slow. Action bars are not neccesarily clicked or always visable, but expect FFXIV to have macros bound to keys directly. EX: instead of ctrl+1 you would have just 1. This will allow for faster inputs for faster gameplay.

I know people don't like portraits, and neither do I. Hopefully FFXIV uses grid or learns from it. Grid is one of those addons which as REVOLUTIONIZED mmorpg gaming. It displays information and updates in an easy to read/display setting. It is a MUST if SE plans on having challenging content. the challenge should not be wading through menus but paying attention and dpsing/healing.

I liked FF11's simplicity. When I played wow I translated that simplicty to my WOW interface. But to expect something that is menu driven is absurd. If you want fast paced combat you will need more hotkeys than ctrl/alt+(1-0).

Well, I guess but wow is not unique in giving out many abilities. Where is the fun in having 3 abilities two of which are 15 minutes?

The game will be speeding up compared to the snails pace of FFXI. They said that for certain.

Secondly, abilities is how classes are going to be unique from one another. Look at BLM and WHM. They have TONS of spells while melee like THF and DRG have select few.

People respond well to action and choosing what they do. There is a reason to why WOW and other mmorpgs have given their players more to do. It is more fun and it pays off big time. Auto-attacking is not fun. I don't see how anyone can think it is.

And pressing 1 versus alt+1 is MANY times faster. Practice it yourself if you don't believe me. If they plan to make the game more engaging, the speed difference from alt+1 and 1 will be noticeable.

Yes, but it is a significantly smaller part of the game, to the point of the comparison being utterly ridiculous.

The problem here is that "strategic thinking," actually translates to "waiting on cooldowns."

In comparison to most recent MMORPGs FFXI melee combat is horrendously sluggish and boring. When I was exping in FFXI people would go to the bathroom, empty laundry, or even go cook food while simultaneously engaged in combat, and it had zero negative impact on our play.. There just wasn't enough for them to do.

I don't see how. Sinister Strike costs 40 energy when talented (and any combat rogue will have it talented), which is 4 seconds. That is ignoring any other action a rogue can do that uses less energy or even no energy. That is also ignoring talents like relentless trike that give you energy back or vitality that increases energy regeneration. That is also ignoring items like thistle tea. Frankly there are several ways to speed up energy regeneration, but we can ignore those for now because it won't even matter. You were waiting on thief cooldowns for less than 4 seconds?

It's been a while since I played FFXI, such correct me if I have anything wrong. SA and TA are both on 1 minute timers. Collabrotator is a new skill that didn't exist when I played, but I assume a normal thief uses that regularly as well. You're looking at optimally, at the very best, 20 second intervals for abilities. I'm not sure how merit parties are done, but I assume you generally save either sa, ta, or both for a WS right? That increases the interval even more.

And isn't thief the best example of melee usage in a party with the 1 minute sa and ta timers? Don't jobs like monk have it far worse?

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 8:31am by Allegory

Maybe that is full enough for you, but for me and most of the players I know that's a lot of free time. A WoW rogues waits a maximum of 4 seconds to use an ability, while a thief waits and absolute minimum of 20 seconds to use an ability, usually being longer than that. Other classes like Monk wait even longer.

The activity ratio of WoW to FFXI ranges from a minimum of 5:1 to perhaps a high end up 20:1.

FFXIV is being designed on the PS3 don't expect a mouse based UI. Take a look at Last Remnant. It uses the same UI as the console versions on the P. It even recognizes an 360 controller and will configure itself accordingly.

I like FFXI's UI. About the only thing I would change is support for higher resolutions and split the chat box into a chat box and log box.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 1:45pm by Lobivopis

Melee classes were much more fun before the tp nerf.

Rogue was my highest, followed by warrior I dabbled in everything but paladin, but even all of that was before the first expansion.

You're right, there are people who enjoy a more relaxing playstyle in MMORPGs. There's no right or wrong when it comes to game design. If people are enjoying the game, then that is all that matters.

However, I personally enjoy a far more active type of MMORPG. I also believe the majority of players would like to see a faster, more intense, and more complex combat system than the one in FFXI. I advocate this type of combat system for FFXIV because I feel it is both what I want and what is in the best interest for SE as far as marketability. Gamers who want a slower and more relaxing MMORPG should have their game, but I don't believe that game should be FFXIV.

Like it or not these days consoles get first consideration because the sales are higher.

The average person wants to sit back and relax on their couch, not hunch over a keyboard. And before you respond with "but I prefer the more complex control afforded by a keyboard". You are not the person SE is targeting. They want FFXIV to appeal to mainstream console gamers. Console gamers don't like controlling games from a keyboard and mouse.



Try tanking Cerb or Khim and then tell me it's "slower and more relaxing"

If you increased that to WoW speed the game would become damn near impossible because you'd have too much to keep track of and too many opportunities to screw up. FFXI is more strategic with more riding on specific actions than in WoW. WoW can be fast paced because the mobs can never really do anything to you that will completely screw you over if you miss it the same way Gates of Hades or Fulmination will.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:05pm by Lobivopis

Allegory pretty much hit the nail on the head. PCs dominate the MMORPG market. Ideally, I'm hoping that SE can come up with something the suits both PC players who prefer keyboard and console/PC players who prefer the gamepad, but the reality is that not everyone who plays MMOs on a PC has/uses a gamepad, but anyone wanting to function well in an MMORPG is going to want a keyboard whether they're on console or a PC.



I would have to say that would be an assumption on your part. I haven't read or heard any statements from SE saying that console gamers are their primary focus.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Not in FFXI, not in WoW, why would they be mutually exclusive in FFXIV?

You have different classes. One of the ways which you can make classes different, is by making some classes easier to play than others. Both WoW and FFXI do this already.

Blizzard didn't miss the boat on consoles. At the time WoW was being developed there was no viable way to update and patch a console system as easily as a PC. Not to mention the consoles of the day were the PS2 and Xbox which would not have been able to run World of Warcraft in an acceptable way. Or that a stupidly large number of consoles weren't even online yet. All that being said, Blizzard is primarily a PC software designer and I'd imagine that they didn't give consoles beyond a cursory glance until much later down the development cycle.

For the first time, specifically this generation, consoles *might* be ready for a mass marketed MMO. Universal Wifi acceptance, App stores, online integration for console games (Madden, Halo, etc.) all paved the way for a console MMO success. Now they have developed distribution outlets and have hardware that run and accept the ever changing MMO.

I also agree that console titles can be huge. Vgcharts project that WoW has sold 9 million units of the original game (not including expansions, repacks, and whatever else; you'd think if you added in those numbers it would be closer to 17 million). That's good enough for #38 of all time. It's going to take one heck of a game for any software company to hit that mark even with a console MMO. I think XIV will be a huge success but I still think it will be highly optimistic for it to hit 9 million copies sold (original game), especially when FFVII which was the biggest success of the whole series only is listed at 10 million.

Numbers aren't everything and the numbers listed above aren't successes, they are record breaking sales numbers (perhaps anomalies). The timing is probably right for XIV but I'm not sure that arguing making an MMO for the console is a break-out market, larger than the PC market could hope for is correct.


Sorry if this is relatively incoherent, posting from vacation

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 3:27pm by baelnic

I still remember the first console online add-on Xband(or something like that) that came out for the SNES and Genesis. Console systems have come a long way since that time. PS3, Wii, and Xbox all have really pushed the limits of consoles online. FFXI on the PS2 was a major accomplishment if only for it's multi platform appeal. If FFXI wasn't on PC or Xbox 360 at all, it would be dead already played only by a few hardcore JP users.

SE knows that they have an enormous potential market in North America and Europe. I kinda think that if Japan was the primary target market, FFXIV would have been announced at the TGS and not E3. That they chose a global (if not primarily NA/EU) forum for their first announcement suggests that they're thinking more globally from the outset than they did with FFXI.

That was kind of inappropriate.

It's not 2002 anymore. People expect more from MMOs than what FFXI delivered because a lot of people have had a taste of what's possible. If FFXI were released today in the same form it was released in back when it first became available in North America, it would be an epic flop. FFXI was good for its time, but it doesn't exactly represent an overall standard for how a successful MMO should be made.

Outdated. I'm not commenting that FFXI is a bad game, but if SE tried to release FFXI today as a new game it would flop.

You can pretend I'm stupid all you want, but when WoW-esque games like Lotro and Warhammer continue to do reasonably well and FFXI-esque games like Vanguard fail miserably, it's pretty clear what the trend is towards.

Edited, Jun 20th 2009 5:54pm by Allegory

Hmmm intresting view's

I kinda of enjoyed the menu system it was tiny out of the way and i would like it to stay the same not like wow,aoc,aion,WH so on that silly point and click to do ur skill Macros baby is the way to go if it ends up like that to me it wont feel like a ffxi

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