This is not FFXI (mindset)Follow

I was wondering if anyone agreed with me. I had seen a couple posts that people stated they wanted others to get out of the mindset this is not another rendition of FFXI. I would like to see more people with new and exciting ideas versus rehashing old FFXI. Granted they are gonna take ideas from FFXI but this isnt FFXI its FFXIV. Please people take this into account and use some creativity. I see the majority of the posts talking about making FFXIV a better version of FFXI. I want to see the posts turn into creative ways to make it feel like a FF game without rehashing FFXI.

Good examples. The whole female Galka argument. They already stated that the races are gonna look the same and thats about it. They could be called something completely different and the lore behinde them is going to be different.

The job system alot of people hoping for the same jobs. I am not saying this is bad im just saying why not hope for something new and exciting after all it is a new game. And no 2 FF games are alike.

New weapons. People have been hoping for the same weapons as the last game. Sure let them be in this game too but why not reccomend a new weapon or two. Also keep in mind this game will be more technology advanced like in FFVII and FFXIII that has been stated. So think about what FF weapons would fit in there.

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 2:04am by JingleHymer

I'd love a "scan" ability to learn everything about the monster...especially drops.

I understand what the op is getting at, but it would be an easier argument to make when dealing with any other MMO and its sequel (or prequel) than Final Fantasy. As it is, you will probably see a fair amount of "familiar" names attached to jobs,weapons, gear, spells, locations, NPCs, etc. since there are so many commonalities between all FF games. It may be a possibility that players are just expressing their desire to see that these "familiarities" continue the way that they have for many years.

ed: spelling

Edited, Jun 13th 2009 3:48am by Kotisu

There is no reference as to that SE have "removed" grinding in any way. Making the game more casual friendly is NOT the same as removing the grinding aspect of the game. You have to understand what grinding actually means in a MMO.

Grinding usually refers to "input xxx time to achieve xxx goal or item". By removing the grinding you eliminate any time sink the game will have. Let me make a few example, maxing up your character threw whatever type of system SE has now instead of level/xp. If you remove the grinding, one would assume that I should be able to get all skills and max my growth at an extremely fast pace. You said they will focus on story, well there are several types of stories and missions, if you go by that we need to remove grinding in the story side as well, that means you need to make the story/mission extremely short and easy and doable in a blink (aka remove any feeling of time sink) so that you don’t feel that it’s a grind in it.

All in all this lead to a game that even an average player will finish in 30 days and then there is really nothing to do. Basically FF14 _offline_.
And trust me that they will never ever have enough content that you can remove the "grinding" feeling from it unless you have a MAJOR content patch every 30 days, and that my friend won’t simply happen.

I really dont want FFXIV to become another WoW clone. I love the challenge FFXI has to offer and I do not wish for that to change in the upcoming MMO. I really hope they stick to their awesome ways when it comes to this new MMO. I dont want it to end up being too easy for the "casual" players. I love being able to solo and all but please please please SE do not make it too easy. I know a lot of people who are just going to hop right back to FFXI if they end up surrounding this game with the skill level of a 12 year old... I dont want little kids to flood our borders in FFXI. I dont want an easy grind to cap. I dont want it to be compared to WoW. Im sure I speak for many others with my opinions.


Edited, Jun 13th 2009 11:48am by Saphiera

I've seen more "FFXIV isn't WoW" than "FFXIV isn't FFXI".

I don't want to like...claim sayings but I wrote the first "FFXIV isn't FFXI" post that I saw (emphasis on the I saw it's very possible and highly likely it's a common thought) and I said it because the thread I was posting in seemed to have a lot of people that basically wanted FFXI with better graphics. I don't want FFXI or WoW...I played both and loved both for their own different things but I haven't played either in a while as I'm now looking for a game that successfully incorporates the good from both (with a little warhammer spice thrown in the mix). I want it to be a final fantasy above all else but I want it to have some of the ease of use and some of the features that WoW has.

Why would ANYONE want another MMO to be a WoW clone? If I wanted to play WoW, I could just play WoW.

Adopting one or two concepts, which have been used in other MMOs, which may include WoW; That isn't the same thing as wanting a WoW clone.

What is a FF game without the classic jobs (which were for all mostly in FFXI)

I'm not accusing you of hating FFXI, but it seems like you do. XI did MANY things right. I don't want them to abandon the whole formula, I want them to improve on it.

I've played XI for 4 years though, so I've gotten used to a lot of the punishing aspects of it. Those punishments (level downs, JP midnights, week long fetch quests just to get utsusemi: ni, 5 hour dynamis's for 1 piece of gear maybe) have become great accomplishments to me. I don't want XIV to be filled with them, but I definitely want a few of those.

I'm ust too afraid their gonna make XIV the Easy Button like WoW.

The game will have, just by being a ff game:

crystals, moogles, typical ff classes, typical weapons, etc. Basically all of this was included in XI and they ran XI for 6 years. To think that they won't draw on that is impossible.

Also, how original are all the job classes in other mmos? Ninja, paladin, thief, warrior, Mage, Healer, Buffer (like bard), and ranged class. So what do you want.. some job classes out of left field that don't fit into any of these?

Do try to keep in mind that "mindless repetition" is not synonymous with challenge. FFXI did/does have challenging content, but again it's very easy for FFXI players to lump legitimate challenge and faceroll repetition into one category. HNMs could be challenging. Grinding xp was not. People like to talk about how "easy" other MMOs are to level in and I'll bet you that if you could strip all of the wasted time from the FFXI xp/merit party cycle, folks would be forced to realize that it's not all that different from any other MMO. If you're in an xp party at level 74 earning 10k xp/hour, how long does it take to get to 75? Just over 4 hours? And what exactly does that four hours entail?

CoP was labeled for the longest time as an expansion that had an incredible story but was way, way too hard. Maybe it has been nerfed or changes to the game have made it easier or maybe the general population finally got a grip, but when I was trying to work through it the problem was about 10% related to the way the content was tuned and 90% the inability of your average FFXI player to think outside of the xp grind box. Static xp camps with pullers doing the legwork while everyone else stood around and waited for the next round of voke/dps/heal botting while mashing TP report macros broke the playerbase to the point where strategy beyond zerging was like...hard. The Promyvions were a cakewalk if you did the legwork beforehand. A lot of the missions were more an exercise in not getting your group scattered all over the place than they were in actually winning the fights.



I'm not sure how much of the press conference and interview transcripts you've read, but FFXIV is going to be breaking away from the set job concept. There's no point getting worked up about which jobs may or may not be present because the rigid job system we're familiar with will most likely be absent.

FFXI had a lot going for it. For its time, it was an absolutely fantastic game, and those of us who played it to the level cap and spent any amount of time in the end-game grind before we got fed up and moved on would no doubt love to see a lot of familiar aspects. We would also like to see a lot of other things included with FFXIV that may or may not resemble other MMOs, but will most certainly not resemble those things that ultimately left us feeling like an average session in FFXI was as much if not more likely to end up dull and unproductive as it was to be fun and exciting.

I think there are concepts in FFXI that are unique, and interesting, and in some cases (like the job system) flat out better than what is found in any other MMO.

I don't expect FFXIV to be a FFXI clone, but I expect it to play and feel more like FFXI than like anything else. I don't want to play FFXIV and think "Hmm, feels like World of Warcraft."

I was extremely disapointed playing FFVIII. Did I want it to be FFVII? I don't know. Part of me did, and part of me wanted something different enough to make me rethink and relearn. What I didn't want is what I got. Given a choice between FFVII-2, and FFVIII, I'd have rather had FFVII-2. On the other hand, FFX was nothing like FFVII, and it was completely awesome.

If FFXIV is a great game, it will be a great game on its own merits. Unfortunately there is always the danger when trying something new of recapturing NONE of what you liked before.

In order of preference, here is what I'd like FFXIV to be:

1) A game that is unique, stands on its own, and excels in every area.

If not that then:

2) A game which carries on the tradition of FFXI, borrowing the ideas and systems that worked, but smoothing away the rough edges, and adding new elements to keep it fresh and interesting. I think this is what a lot of people want as their #1 preference, and I sort of feel like this is what S-E is going to provide.

The other possibilities (a blatant attempt to dumb things down and appeal to the casual gamer above all, or something completely original, but not fun) are barely worth mentioning. I would not play FFXIV if it turned out to be either of those things, because... why should I? Unless FFXIV offers something really special, why put up with S-Es terrible "blame it on the customer" service?

in a way it's not so easy to do what you want...

any forum user can criticize a thing, say it would be better done in another way, but it takes a devoper to create the said thing from scratch...

in my case, even if the dragoon job existed ages ago, i wouldn't have tough to add a pet wyvern to it, the guy who decided that was a pure genius.(exept the recast at that time, but that's another story)
now, i didn't like the job more than that before, and now it's my favorite job...
why should i want it not to be the same in ffxiv ?
i would feel like i lost an important part of the fun i had if they removed it, hell, i may not even want to play(that probably won't happens but you get the point)

on another note, even if you say that you don't want peoples to take ideas from ffxi, then peoples takes ideas from others ffs, i can't see how it's better in any way ^^; (actually i am guilty of all theses as well)



Edited, Jun 13th 2009 5:20pm by DarkBiBi

FFXIV won't be a WoW clone, but either an FFXI-2

Well they could throw us a huge curveball down the line. A few popular Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels lately are combining their series'. On example is the Terry Brooks' Word&Void>Shannara>Armageddons Children.

What if (and I highly doubt it) this is waaaay in the future or past of XI.

Honestly though, I don't care what's about to happen. I know it will be great on many levels and miss on a few others. It's just the way it is with SE. You're almost guaranteed a B+

I'm looking forward to new adventures, with a well thought out (and hopefully properly translated) story, and amazing vistas.

As to weapons, I really would like to see some different things. Especially fluid weapons like whips/chains, maybe elemental swords that have a slight liquidity to them. More thrown weapons. Most of all I would like a lot more visible difference in weapon types. My super rare dagger shouldn't look nearly the same other than color as a lvl 1 item.

Edited, Jun 14th 2009 6:02am by PerrinofSylph

<.<



you probably read what i wrote the wrong way, what i meant is :
-it's absolutly normal for people to want to keep what they like
-if you're so brillant try to figure what's going to be in ffxiv and wasn't in any previous ff, hard isn't it ? even with all the things we'll have from previous ffs, the main point will be what's new, we are somewhat agreeing on that.

and i'd prefer no drg job(tough that's probably not going to happens) to drg without a wyvern, it would at least let me some hope for the next ffs...
actually i wouldn't care about drg, i'd be happy just to meet our little blue friend there(only if they don't become something like merit pt targets :x)

I'm not sure really what you're responding to. I applaud the fact that they didn't make 8 into just a sequel to 7, which a lot of companies would have done, because it would be safe and just make some more money.

However, I didn't like 8. I thought the "draw" system was not fun, and some of the other design decisions, while ambitious, didn't work out very well. The comparison with 11 and 14 is that, the best case possible is that 14 is extremely different (the way that 10 was different from 7 and 8) but still great (like 10 was, IMO). If they play it safe and just make it "Improved FF11" then I'll probably still play it an enjoy it. If they try to shoot for the stars and fail (like I feel they did with 8) then I will still try it, and be dis satisfied, and not play long term. That's the danger of being ambitious-- if you succeed, you are hailed, and if you don't, then you are jeered.




That's fine. If you like 8 then awesome, good for you. It's no loss or gain to me if it was a game you enjoy(ed). I'm not here to tell you what you should like, I just used it as an example of how trying to be different can sometimes turn out sour. You don't have to agree that it's sour for my point to stand.



I'm not assuming anything. I feel like FFXI has a special charm that partially comes from the fact that everything has to be earned. I'd like to see a game like that, with some of the poor implementation (like static, open air camps) taken out. I think S-E gets that, and you can see from the way they have designed gear and encounters as each expansion has come along, that they have evolved, albeit slowly.



I agree. Like I said, the game doesn't have to be just more of the same, but the more ambitious and creative they get, the more chance to lose what makes your game special.

Given a choice of an ambitious failure, and an evolutionary success, I'd take the success. Given a choice of an ambitious success and an evolutionary success, I'd take the ambitious choice. The problem is until the game is released, we don't really know which one it is.

Maybe you're just not a very good player then. There was very little by way of challenge in FFXI that wasn't created almost exclusively by poor players who couldn't get past the xp grind mindset to zerging everything. Time spent does not entail challenge...it just means you were willing to spend the time.



I'm getting tired of arguing with would-be genius scrubs who can't think outside of the box.

Is a tank a job or a role? Is a healer a job or a role? Is dps or support a job or a role? So if you can fill the role with or without the job label and restrictions, wtf does it matter whether you call it a red mage or a melee/caster dps + support and enfeebling? Oh...it doesn't matter.

Read the transcripts again. Carefully.



Kinda like someone who has been leveling jobs in FFXI since release and can switch to almost any job at level 75?



Don't accuse me of being "emo" for leaving a game I didn't enjoy. Go inform yourself and then if you're capable of carrying on a non-butthurt conversation, get back to me. Your reading skills could use some obvious improvement, and you could probably start by not ignoring what is written for the sake of fabricating things to be defensive over.

Edited, Jun 16th 2009 11:02pm by AureliusSir

You only assume I'm unaware. Nice try, though. If you want to base your arguments solely on assumption, be my guest.

Just a tip for you: it becomes very, very apparent when someone has just been itching for an excuse to post their nerd-resume, and you fit the bill to a tee. Good for you...you got it done. Now talk to me about combat mechanics. You know...the things about those accomplishments that actually made them challenging, not simply listing them like the list itself means something.



Again, a fantastic example of an FFXI neophyte completely incapable of thinking outside the box. To me, it's pretty simple to think in terms of tank, healer, dps, and support without having to append job titles to them. As long as FFXIV includes a system to rank the rate of development of a character in a particular area, that's all we need.



More stuck-in-the-box thinking. How effective are you going to be as a healer if you've got a mob chewing your face off and interrupting or delaying all of your casts? How effective are you going to be as a healer if your gear is suited exclusively to melee dps? How effective is a group going to be if there are no roles assigned before the fighting starts? In other MMOs, class/job defines limits on what abilities/spells you can use and what kinds of gear you can wear. SE has set precedent in other games and other developers have adopted no-level, no-job systems for character development that were both functional and fun.

You can throw selective quotes at the discussion until you're blue in the face. If you can't conceive of a system that doesn't revolve around explicit job selection, that's not my problem. It doesn't make it impossible to implement well, nor does it render a job system superior.



I've read everything about FFXIV that SE has released to date. I'm also able to tell the difference between explicit statements and implicit ones. SE has made relatively few explicit statements about what will or will not be in FFXIV. They have made a great many implicit statements that point in an entirely different direction from what many are used to, and you don't have to look far to see the mortifying effect it is having on the FFXI fanbois who don't understand much beyond grinding and zerging.

The hints have been that there will be no fixed job system. I like that you bolded "We hope to expand on the job system" and glossed over the "in a different way" part.

"First of all, the job type of system will be very different. It depends on, again, the style of play the player wants."

(Source.)

"When the interviewer asks if series mainstays like Warrior or Paladin will appear, the developers simply hint that nothing will be exactly the same as we know it."

(Source)

For everything you can throw out that, in your mind, confirms a traditional job system, I can throw something back that hints it will be something different.

Still waiting for some combat mechanics to back up your claim that FFXI was more than an epic wait and grind fest.


Edited, Jun 17th 2009 4:38pm by AureliusSir

Glad to see that you're certain. Interesting to see how your certainty has evolved over the last few posts. Funny almost that what you ended up with is what I've been talking about here in various different threads now for weeks, but go ahead and accuse me of something else if it floats your boat. The time stamps on all of my other posts on the issue tell the tale.

Just one problem...you still haven't addressed the "challenge" component of FFXI by referencing specific combat mechanics that made something a real...you know...challenge...and not just a grind or a time sink or an epic wait for "maybe something, maybe nothing" that made you feel accomplished when you were one of the small handful of people who wound up on the "something" side of the scale. Note that I've acknowledged that there is some challenging content in FFXI, but you kinda rammed your foot in your mouth with the WoW ez-mode comment.

I simultaneously agree and disagree o.O

I also want very much to keep this from derailing too badly, so let me just clarify that my intent is not to suggest that there's no challenge in FFXI, but to be clear (again) that time spent does not mean content is more challenging. It just means more time spent. I can stand around a city waiting for a group to fill out like a corporate sponsored pro, but that doesn't mean anything is going to get done when the group rolls out. It also doesn't mean that waiting 2 hours for the group to form up or farming the content dozens of times makes that content more challenging from a mechanics point of view. It's just...time. I cleared the CoP missions, all Zilart missions (including the ones a lot of folks didn't do because meh...we have Sky access, why bother?), Divine Might, etc. My CoP static one-shot a lot of the harder CoP missions that had other groups stonewalled for weeks/months. (Airship, Snoll Tzar, etc.) On the flip side of the coin, I've been in fights in other MMOs that, in terms of complexity, make some of the "major" fights in FFXI look like a glorified gear check. I've been in fights in some MMOs that, while not exceptionally complex or hardcore challenging, contained many more layers of complexity and varying combat mechanics than anything I ever saw in FFXI.

I've been 100% certain the entire time that FFXIV with have traditional jobs, albeit with a new twist or whatever. You are saying they won't have jobs and we will all be jack-of-all things.



WoW is easy. Don't pretend it isn't, no one will believe you here. Any game that I can get to capped level in a month and be bored of... is easy.

I'm not gonna sit down and write out all the things that make FFXI a challenging game, it's honestly not worth the effort. We can just disagree on that. Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue want a few words with you though.

Sartharion + drakes in WoW is a way more complex than anything I ever saw in FFXI. Most instances in LOTRO were a fair bit more involved than anything I saw in FFXI. I recognize that they're different games with different combat systems that restrict the extent of multiple components for a given fight, but I just think back to my days in FFXI and most of my time in combat was spent spamming the macro I made to report the cooldowns on my most commonly used abilities. Lots of time to plan and consider, adjust location, whatever. When you've got way more abilities than you could ever hope to keep on cooldown, things get a little more interesting, especially when you're dealing with multiple targets. These are all things I hope to see in FFXIV; more targets, faster cooldowns and more abilities for a faster pace, and in turn content tuned to take advantage of it.

I think a multi-hitting sword called Llidir should be dropped from a mob called Rinfaf. This is not FFXI after-all.