Learning from WoWFollow

Yes, not everyone wants easy. You want all the functions of WoW that made it easy, and casual to be put into FFXIV. We understand that. I also understand that just about every MMO released since WoW has tried this, and most have failed. Grinds are a necessery evil in MMO's, because it is impossible for developers to develop content at a rate to keep up with the consumers. Once you understand the limitations on developers then you can accept what MMO's are. Personally, I like working towards a goal and seeing that come to fruition.

You keep saying that a game like FFXI cannot become successful. Well, to me a success is a product that you reap a profit from, not the measurement to WoW, because WoW will never be duplicated again. FFXI is profitable and maintains 500,000 active subscribers far more than most MMO's, yes even LotRO (Which I played for almost a year *puke*) which is as casual, or even more so than WoW. FFXI is successful whether you don't want to realize it or not.

Am I asking for FFXIV to be FFXI part deux? Nope. I'm asking for FFXIV to retain the same feel of accomplishment and group participation that FFXI had. Yes, I want to work a year or two towards a relic. Yes, I want there to be world pops (caveat: 21, 24, 48, 72 hours NOT with 3 hour windows, possible 15 to 30 minute window max with a chance to pop every 5 minutes within that timeframe). No I don't want too much instances, as it takes away from the 'world' feel.

I don't want a casual solo oriented romp. Do I want the game to be 99% group? Nope, but at least 80% or so. Am I right, and you're wrong? No. It's called preference. We are both neither right, or wrong, and you saying we are wrong for wanting our preference, I must ask why do you want every MMO to be the same? Today, just about every MMO that comes out follows the same casual checkoff list. If it was such a recipe for success why then, do most massively flop? The niche that FFXI fills is profitable, is successful, and can keep 1 million subscribers active for many years. You want to play number games, ok, fine. I just want to play something I enjoy and there is not any other next-gen MMO that caters to what I like, so of course I'm going to ask for FFXIV to be more to my liking. You have choices, those of us who like FFXI do not.

Yay! Another WoW guru who has obviously never played the game! Huzzah!

WoW was not without grinds. The difference is, not everything was a grind. WTF is preventing you folks from grasping the concept that not everything is "easy" or "hard"? Why can you not grasp the concept of a gray area? What is so difficult to understand about an idea like "diversity"?

I'm not asking for easy, I'm asking for diverse. Again, I hope...and I mean really hope...you're not one of those scrubs that think waiting forever denotes skill. There's a difference between something that requires patience and something that requires skill.



Because MMOs that do not grow, die. FFXI has had a stagnant population for over 2 years now. LOTRO was absolutely not more casual than WoW. The fact that you think it was just reinforces to me that you know little about WoW. The crafting grind and "Kill 100 Worg in <x zone> for <trivial increase> to <stat>" was in no way casual. I enjoyed LOTRO until I hit the level cap and then it was...non-stop grind.




Actually yes, you are wrong. Not because you prefer groups, but because you feel the disturbing urge to apply % values to the scope of the content. You like groups? Yes? OK. Does the game have enough group content to keep you happy? Yes? OK. Beyond that point, it's none of your concern how much solo content is available relative to the rest of the game, because you have what you enjoy and your thinking is fundamentally backwards to think that your preferences deserve the lion's share of the content.

And before you...or anyone else...comes back with the fully retarded retort that that's what advocates for the option to play solo and still progress are asking for, they're not. I personally like a balance. If you like to play primarily in a group you can still see all of the solo content. You can see it solo, or you can see it in a group. Hell, you could probably see it sooner in a group than someone could see solo. But when your narrow thinking leads you to the conclusion that "80%" of the content should require a group to experience, you're being a selfish twunt. Share or gtfo.

I don't think you quite understand that neither my preference, nor yours is wrong or right. I want a group oriented MMO, you want a more solo oriented or balanced MMO. An opinion can never be right, or wrong. I suggest you take a step back and let off some steam, as you have become too emotionally attached.

Personally, my style of gaming is more aligned to the eastern culture, where as you are a western gamer. I understand. I hope you also understand that every MMO coming out now-a-days follows your prescription for a MMO. You say you want diversity, well I want at least one game that has gameplay that I'm looking for. SWTOR, LoTRO, WAR, and Star Trek are all pushing for a solo, casual oriented style of gameplay. I want the opposite. I want difficult, challenging, time-consuming tasks. I want to work towards a relic, mythic. I want ampoule style reward systems (preferrably not instanced). I want HNM's and NM's with varying pop timers from 30 minutes to 72 hours. Do I want 3 hour pop windows? Nope. 15-30 minute windows should be the max.

I want rare gear to be rare, not only because of difficulty, but also from how long it takes to achieve. Do I want .05%drop rates? Nope. Do I want long treks towards the final like Dyna currency and the like, yes.

Is what I want, any better or worse than what you want? Nope. Is what you want any better or worse than what I want? Nope.

Stop acting like it is. It's childish. You keep postulating that FFXI is not successful. I am not sure on what foundation you base this. FFXI is extremely profitable, and is nearing 7 years old and still has 500,000 users. If that isn't successful, I'm not sure what is.

LotRO is the most casual MMO there is. You can get from 1-60 extremely quick. When MoM came out there were 6 instances. You could get all your *end-game* gear within 8-ish hours. The instances were quick, easy, and repeatable dropping the best gear. I do not want that! Understand that every MMO that comes out today are casual. Those of us who prefer difficulty, time-consuming, tasks and goals and like to play socially in groups don't have the array of choices like you do. It is in fact, you who are imposing on us the minority. Even though, us the minority can still create and maintain a very successful MMO (FFXI) whether you want to admit it or not.

You totally missed what I wrote. I didn't say you're wrong for wanting group content. I didn't say I'm right for enjoying an element of solo content. I said you're wrong to skew the ratio of content in favor of what you want. It's not your opinion I take issue with, it's your inability to read what is written and understand it. It's not about, "I want all solo and you group idiots can piss off." It's about, "I want options and you group-only ninnies who keep whining about the idea of casual play in 'your' game are ridiculous."

I'm not a solo-only advocate. I spent a very substantial amount of my time in WoW in dungeons and raids. I wouldn't want a solo-only MMO any more than you would, but I'm also not so arrogant as to suggest that the majority of the content should be based around my liking.

You can have a game that presents numerous, diverse, unique options for group play. That game can include extremely lengthy processes with outstanding rewards for achieving certain goals. That game can include content that can challenge the most skilled and dedicated players. There's nothing wrong with any of that. That exact same game can, however, include equally numerous, diverse, and unique options for solo play. It can include abbreviated processes with rewards that suit the process but are also satisfying and worthwhile. It can include content to satisfy the most simplistic, casual player.

Nobody needs to find themselves short on content to enjoy because they prefer one style of play more than the other, and that's the entire point.

I like the grouping thing in FFXI, but most of the time, I don't have time.
I do wonder though.. let's say theoretically it was possible to have it 50/50.. Enough party content vs. enough solo content. Which way would the player base shift? If most went the solo route, then I believe SE has no choice but to capitalize on that. They want to make money right? Again I don't really have a personal opinion on the matter, I just wonder what the % is of people who would prefer to be able to solo to level cap.

First, it's hard to keep in mind, but since there is no leveling, it stand to reason there will be no level cap. I'm not trying to nitpick, I just feel that realization is something changes the whole dynamic of the debate. XIV will be about advancing in very different ways than the popular MMOs of today.

Now to answer you question... I would love to see the option for characters to solo in our new MMO at every stage of their career. I also believe there is a need to provide enough incentives to gamers to group during the advancement stage of their career if the devs wish them to party at all before endgame commences.

Forming a party takes time, as does learning party dynamics, and the abilities (and deficiencies) of the members with you that day. It can be awkward and a chore, and without a substantial bonus to parties few people will bother. And why would they?

For me a good balance would make parties a clearly faster way to advance, but not so slow for soloing that people feel it becomes impractical. Of course, again, with this new concept of advancing our character, this line of thinking might not really fit.

Where I'd be really interested in XIV's solo philosophy would be towards end game. Can SE create content for an end game player to do solo that also is fun and meaningfully advances one of the players goals? This is an area you really don't see any MMO's out there do well, if they even try at all.

The problem here comes down to balance then. You need to have very customized classes in order to achieve that. If by definition you want it to be soloable every class in the game needs to be able to dps to advance in the game threw solo, and preferably at the same rate as all other classes since we don’t want to discriminate any class from another when it comes to picking a class that you want to level up solo. WoW have solved this issue with the talentree system where each class have several viable option and one of those option is always to deal damage to let you kill of monsters in order to progress. Also this gets rather complicated and hazardous when you have many classes like in FFXI.

Hmm, IIRC ALL have failed.

No the problem is that you keep putting words in other one's mouths, twisting what is being said and making everything a WoW vs. FFXI flame debate which other people don't want to have.

Ah, the denial begins, give me something more concrete than that mate.

This right here is an absolute lie...
Not so much for tanks though I do believe tanks can do ok solo now but healers....

Healers are basically screwed...

Healers are basically screwed...

They are not. Any spec of any class can level just fine, WoW's not that hard. It just takes longer for tank and healer specs and you have to be more careful when you're squishy. But then, most level with a DD spec and then change to a tank/healer spec when they reach endgame anyway.

Hmm why would you even consider going solo as a tank, when you have the option to go dps via the talentree, doesn’t make any sense.

We are talking about solo, not grouping now and the only viable way you can skill up your tanking skill ( as in being good to tank in an instance) is to do it in a group, preferably in a instance. So any training you do have to be with a group, since I don’t see the point of training for a tank in solo mode.
With the DualSpec implemented in WoW you can switch back and forth between your specs depending on if you are grouped or not. Again I don’t get the point why you did have tanking mode when you were soloing, because that won’t really help your skill in becoming a good tank.

First of all, You'll notice I said this was before the expansion raised the level cap. There was no dual spec in the game at that time. Please pay attention.

For me to level solo as DPS and then want to participate in any group play along the way as a tank would have required me to pay for a respec in order to tank and then pay for a respec back to DPS to start soloing as DPS again. Respecs costs rise each time you do it which becomes very prohibitive once you cap out on the costs.

It is also simply untrue that there is no benefit to playing a tanking class solo to learn that classes abilities. If you level a paladin as a DPS class you use an entirely different ability set to play. When you reach 80 and want to tank guess what. You suddenly have a whole different set of abilities that you don't understand the ins and outs of how they work together. Your ability rotation is not second nature to you so instead of being able to watch what is happening in the fight you are paying attention to all of your abilities instead which makes for much more inefficient play.

Also, tanking solo and pulling multiple mobs teaches you very well about what you can and can't survive. It also teaches you how to uses your abilities for survival when things go wrong and lose your healer near the end of a kill.

You do know that spell damage and spell healing have been merged right? Sure, they lack some talents which make things faster, but they have all the gear options at their disposal to level easily.

This isnt the days where a healer would have 1000 spell healing but 0 spell damage and would hit you for the base amount of the spell. These are times when that healer has 1000 spell power and just lacks the talent specs to bolster their damage.

So yes, they kill slower - they should - but they can solo at a reasonable pace, and like i said they never die. Sadly in the wow community though, if you are not nuking the mob in 10 seconds it is considered "too slow".

And as someone said - if you are a hybrid you can level as a DD spec and then switch easily to a healer / tank spec for grouping with the dual spec system.

The best reason for a player to level as a tank spec? Because the game allows them to, they aren't hurting anyone, and because they want to. And that's all the reason they need.

I have never played AoC, but your description of guild cities sounds like a great feature. I would love to see something like that implemented. I imagine that watching cities grow in the world had a very immersive feel.

And the entire gist of your post is spot on! In FFXI, I considered my level as a way to enable me to see more areas, learn more of the story, and do things I simply couldn't do at level one. Leveling was the job, and experiencing the world was the joy. Anything outside of the grind is a welcome addition to me.

Except Black ostriches and Black penguins aren't known for flying. You stick the word Black in front of the word Chocobo and the bird can suddenly fly.

To try to touch another point, something I'd like to see is encouraged role diversity for classes through inherent class abilities, traits or talents. I'm guessing this is less likely to happen due to the plethora of jobs in the FF mythos, but I'd really like to see hybrid jobs get the opportunity to choose their role without negative repercussions, instead of pigeonholing them into a role from lv10 to the level cap (Red Mage, I'm looking at you).

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 3:44pm by Ruisu

Absolutely. I'm all for it. And I believe that statement to be genuine.

So when we see statements from the same interview like this:





Does that mean they're lying in their first statement? Or could it be that diverse options to include rewarding solo play are not something that will make FFXIV "too much like WoW"? I choose the latter.

I think its safe to say every current and former wow player here wants this to be an FF title not a WoW clone.

Ive played WoW and Ive played every FF from 4-12 and the first one (never got the us remakes of 2 and 3). I like many here want a disncitly FF game. What I think we're trying to say is that we DONT want EVERYTHING in 14 to be a horrendous timesink. Horrendous timesinks are fine in their place but not EVERYTHING has to be a horrendous timesink.


Edited, Jun 7th 2009 4:52pm by mezlabor

A few of them. 4,7 and tactics are the first to spring to mind but Im pretty sure the black choco has appeared in other titles too.

Instances
Instanced battles are something WoW got right, however having instance entrances in the middle of a city completely takes me out of the game. Don't make it too difficult to get to an instance, but at least put it in a place that makes sense.

Notorious Monsters
The open world NMs in WoW take barely any time to repop. While this makes the items they drop less rare, it also means that anyone who wants to can try to kill them. This is a far better system than FFXI. Put the really rare stuff in instances. You shouldn't have to compete with the game and other players.

Crafting
Both FFXI and WoW have their pros and cons when it comes to crafting. In FFXI a high level crafter is a highly sought after individual and it can be a very lucrative career. The downside is that crafting in FFXI is extremely difficult to get into. Most players don't have nearly enough time or money to sink into becoming a decent crafter and, with little exceptions, there are no rewards for crafting until you reach 100.

WoW crafting, on the other hand, is much more accessible. Anyone can pick up a craft and immediately start leveling it. If you level your craft while you level your character, you'll almost always be able to make useful items for yourself. The flipside is, once you're done making stuff for yourself and your friends, there's not much you can do with your craft. Because it's so accessible, just about anyone can be a high level crafter and there's no demand for the items you can make.

Personally, I prefer WoW's system, but it'd be nice to see a combination of the two. A crafting system that is easy to get into and get results from, but that is difficult to master.

Farming
In WoW, if I need leather I'll go kill some monsters and skin them. The more time I spend doing this, the more leather I'll get. If I can't farm the materials I can go to an NPC and buy them.
In FFXI, if I need leather I'll go kill some monsters and hope they drop leather. I could spend hours doing this and have nothing to show for it. If I can't farm the materials I can go to an NPC and wait for an hour until the shop opens, and then hope that I'm fast enough to buy what I need before someone else does. Since the NPC sells only a very very small amount of items it is unlikely I'll get what I need.

The only factor in farming should be how much time you put into it.

Death
Death should always be a bad thing, but in FFXI it was game breaking. The EXP penalty made every task in the game a chore.
The Linkshell wants to farm Sky?
I don't know... I'm already close to deleveling. I'll go next time.
A friend wants help on a mission?
Jeez, I already did that one, and it took me days to get back all the EXP I lost.
A noob needs help getting his level cap items?
Ha! Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna risk my neck for someone I don't even know!

When you die in WoW your gear takes a damage hit and you need to spend money to repair it. Nobody wants to have to repair their gear, but that possibility is not going to keep them from doing any of the above examples.

The penalty should be high enough so that having a White Mage or someone else to raise you would be worthwhile, but low enough so that it doesn't make you want to stop what you're doing. Taken a durability hit and having to walk back to your party from the home point is enough.

Interface
Square-Enix needs to learn the difference between changing the way your screen looks and cheating. Every other MMO understands that interface mods are a huge part of the community and keep players happy. Trying to outlaw them only loses you customers.

I agree, and i'm ok with that. But if the game is 95% solo (ala WoW) and you hit max level within 2-3 weeks I have a bit of a problem with that. YES SOLO SHOULD BE AN ASPECT OF THE GAME! I won't deny that, but the rewards from partying to get experience should be greater than soloing, otherwise no one will do it and once again there will be no partying aside from endgame and/or if they carry over things like promyvians/boss fight/missions/etc.

No matter how many down rates I get, (not directed at you personally digital) i'm entitled to an opinion to and I really hope that the party/solo thing doesn't become like how it is in WoW where NO ONE does it unless you run an instance (which before northrend rarely happens w/o a high level) or your doing endgame.

Lying is a harsh word, the problem is this, we don’t know what they mean with solo friendly or supportive solo play, it could mean anything really, we can speculate endlessly to later find out that, “oh nice, it's even more solo friendly then WoW”, or “damn, this so called solo play was almost as bad as in FFXI”. There is a huge spectrum in between and we don’t know where SE has put FF14. All we can do is wait and see until we get some more concrete information about the game play to make a direct and calculated assumption of the solo play in FFXI.

Edited, Jun 7th 2009 6:06pm by Maldavian