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Question for all the tanks out there who like big weaponsFollow

#1 Oct 04 2008 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Does the damage ever improve?

My rank 9 Chosen is doing horrible damage compared to my rank 6 Marauder, despite wearing better gear. He's equipped with a big ol' sword, but the damage done is not really that noteworthy compared to a sword and board. Maybe it's because all the attacks I've seen in the game have had fixed numbers (that scaled with rank) instead of "weapon damage + x" and while they do appear to scale a bit with weapon damage, it's nothing noteworthy.

If any of you have played a Warrior in World of Warcraft, I kind of feel like I'm a Protection Warrior stuck in Defensive Stance with Revenge, Thunder Clap and Rend as my only attacks. I'd like some attacks that did more damage, because I'm getting tired of spamming keys. Really. I'd love an attack that chopped off maybe 25% of an "Equal" target's health. Let it rip a hole in my AP tank if it helps. I'm tired of hitting the same three buttons a dozen times before my AP pool runs dry and I have to auto-attack for a while before repeating.

Does the hurtin' ever start? Or should I throw any Warrior expectations carried over from WoW out the window and go for a melee DPS class like the Marauder or Witch Elf instead? I really love the damage of the Marauder. It feels a lot like a Fury Warrior from WoW, except in leather gear, but I want the big armor and weapons!

Had been looking forward to running into battle as a huge Chaos Chosen or Black Orc, swinging my sword/axe and cleavin' stunties left and right, but so far I'm not seeing any reason to equip a Great Weapon instead of a board.

Edit: Changed title.

Edited, Oct 5th 2008 1:37am by Mazra
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#2 Oct 04 2008 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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First off, let me start by asking why you think a tank class is ever going to compare to a pure melee DPS class in damage?

If your tank should be able to do uber damage, then maybe the DPS class should be allowed to wear heavy armour and tank?

The whole point of a tank class is to be able to absorb damage that would otherwise be directed at your more squishy friends. The ability to do this is offset by an overall lower damage output.

Having said that, you can put out some respectable numbers at later ranks with a greatweapon once you get tactics and gear to support such a choice. Note I said respectable, you'll still never compare with a melee DPS or a ranged DPS class that knows how to play.

I've seen an Ironbreaker in full DPS setup do 130k damage in a teir 4 scenario. Lets put that in perspective though, I've seen a marauder do almost 300k damage. Both are rare, one off occurances, but it should give you some idea of thier potential.

Regardless of whether or not its possible, gearing to do more damage in PvP as a tank isn't a good idea unless your group is balanced enough to allow you to do that. Even then, your better off playing your marauder if thats what you want to do.

I myself often use a Greataxe in PvP, however, I'm still in full tank gear, the 2 hander just gives me access to some of my better CC abilities. I'm under no illusions that my role is to kill things. A tanks job is to make sure the rest of your team can kill things while you quietly keep the nasty things off them.
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#3 Oct 04 2008 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Loaar wrote:
First off, let me start by asking why you think a tank class is ever going to compare to a pure melee DPS class in damage?


I realize that it's a bit odd asking why the tank does horrible damage compared to a dps career. I guess it's because Blizzard has spoiled me over the years, with classes that weren't locked into a single role.

Loaar wrote:
If your tank should be able to do uber damage, then maybe the DPS class should be allowed to wear heavy armour and tank?


My guess is that you've never played World of Warcraft. Granted, Blizzard has had four years to improve and balance out, but the balance in WAR seems very lacking. It's sort of a "the more damage, the less armor and health" balancing system, which, you know... works. It's not pretty, but it works. It just makes the career selection very boring, because you've got one career for each role.

Sure, they gave them different names depending on race and added a little something special to make it look unique. Like the Swordmaster (High Elf) with the Dance stances that unlock abilities, except, it's not much different from the Black Orc's Plan progression system. Bright Wizards (Empire) gain Combustion which enhances their spells, but also makes them blow up sometimes.. very identical to the Sorceress (Dark Elf) who gains Dark Magic and also risks blowing up.

The talent system of WoW is, in my opinion, what makes that game. It's the reason you can play it for years. Love your career, but hate your playstyle? Just switch around talent points and experience your career in a whole new way. Gosh, it's hard having to refer to classes as careers now.

Anyway.

Loaar wrote:
The whole point of a tank class is to be able to absorb damage that would otherwise be directed at your more squishy friends. The ability to do this is offset by an overall lower damage output.


From a PvE perspective, that's just dandy. However, in PvP (which I believe this game is heavily based on), having loads of tankability means absolutely nothing (or very little). I know that there are certain taunt/de-taunt abilities in the game that might force someone to attack someone he didn't want to attack, but I've used Taunt and De-taunt in scenarios and it didn't exactly stop them from either grinding my face into the dirt in case I was the de-taunter, or simply ignoring me if I was the taunter.

Unless I can utilize player collision to clog a passage way somewhere, I don't see why anyone would bother going for me instead of the squishy behind me.

Thanks for the "end-game" comparisons and examples of damage, though. I have no idea if 130k damage is a lot, but I'm guessing it's a fair bit.

Edited, Oct 5th 2008 4:18am by Mazra
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#4 Oct 04 2008 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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First, yes you are spoiled from WoW.

Warhammer is RvR. There is no one class that does everything. Every class does have it's niche. Every class has it's specific role, because this game is meant to pvp in a large group. In a group dynamic your useful, because you are a unique snowflake :p

I'm only in tier 2, but I don't think there are any huge I win buttons like in WoW. Some morale abilities are pretty cool though.

And your similarity comparisons. You are pointing out the class mirrors. That's how they've balanced the sides. Every class has it's own mirror.

And another thing, tanks do have a very specific role in this game. With player collision, tanks hold the front line of an army, keeping people away from the casters in the back.

Lastly, theres a bit of customization here with the career paths and tactic masteries and what not.

Check out mavericks post about engineers. He explains it pretty well how differently you can make a class feel by speccing it differently.
#5 Oct 04 2008 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, my description of a tank was from a PvP perspective. Let me explain.

A tank in PvP is effectively a CC job (crowd control). Sure, the enemy can ignore me, but if they do, this is what happens:

1. I have guard up on my healer, who is usually the first target. So my healer is taking 50% less damage as long as we stay within 30 feet of each other. Sure I'm taking the other 50%, but my toughness mitigates most of it anyway.

2. Assuming they rush my healer, I have an AoE knockback I can use every 10 seconds. This AoE knockback is also a 40% snare, so after they go flying, they run back to us at a reduced speed. I have a single target knockdown that does about 700 dmg as well. 20 sec cooldown. While they are down I can DPS them along with any ranged DPS who happen to be nearby.

3. If they are still going I have another single target knockback, 20 sec cooldown. If we get rushed I have an AoE root, lasts 10 seconds. Just pop it and we back off til one of my knockbacks cooldown wears off.

4. Assuming they reach my healer and start beating on him, I have an AoE ability that reduces everyones dmg by 30%. Healers also have a detaunt move like all other classes.

5. Ok, so their hitting my healer, in the meantime I'm buffing my healers armour and toughness even further, and the enemy is doing 50% less dmg to my healer cause of guard, 30% less dmg cause of my Challenge ability, and 50% less dmg from detaunt.

6. At this stage my cc ability timers are well and truly back up and we start again.

While I'm keeping my healer free from harm, they are keeping our DPS alive, who are killing the other teams healers and ranged DPS.

Sounds good in theory, and sometimes things don't go to plan, but assuming you have more than one healer, and mroe than one tank, and your DPS classes are doing their job, tanks are very important in PvP.

Sure, you can ignore me and go straight for my squishy friends, but I'm going to be enough of a pain to you that either your ranged DPS will deal with me, or you'll be forced to try and get rid of me. All the while my healer is still spamming heals and keeping everyone up.

PvP is balnced around group play in WAR, which is exactly as it should be.

Your right, I haven't played WoW, but I've played plenty of other MMO's. And if you think your locked into one role, think again.

Each career has 3 mastery paths, similar to your WoW talent trees or w/e they were called. Each mastery path specialises you in a certain area. My playstyle is very different if I spec one path over the other, each has their strengths and weaknesses, but they are all good when used to fill a role within your group that balances your party/warband.

You can endlessly respec your mastery too, costs around 4-5 gold.

All this is obviously geared towards the kind of abilities you have near endgame, but thats where this game will be. I'm almost 40 and the game is 2 weeks old.

The other realm will have abilities to counter the kind of things I can do, or try and remove me from the equation, but thats what makes PvP interesting.

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#6 Oct 04 2008 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, spoiled by WoW.

No matter what the people over on the Warrior forum will tell you, Warriors are incredibly imbalanced in WoW and are only not at the top of the ladder anymore because Rogues are even more broken. There roles has been split over 2 career in WAR >_>, you actually got to choose between dps and survability, the horror!

Quote:
My guess is that you've never played World of Warcraft. Granted, Blizzard has had four years to improve and balance out, but the balance in WAR seems very lacking. It's sort of a "the more damage, the less armor and health" balancing system, which, you know... works. It's not pretty, but it works. It just makes the career selection very boring, because you've got one career for each role.


And WoW's pvp is perfectly balanced, right? ;p

You know what's the first thing people ask me when I told I've hit 2k+ arena rating every season?

"Do you play a Druid?"

Follow by

"Do you play a Rogue?"

Heh.

As to go back to the dps issue...

With 2 handed weapon, focusing on the path of dread/Brawla and the Tactic that increase your damage by 15% (but lower your threat by 15% and armor by 33%), you can do some ok damage. In RVR, in 1v1, I can beat almost any other class. No, the game is not based around 1v1, I'm only saying this to show that I deal enough damage to be a threat, they cannot ignore me forever, or I will kill them.

But you'll never be a melee dps.

I'm personally satisfied at the rate with which I kill mob. And while my pvp dps isn't that impressive, it's also not negligable and the fact that I can do more then just dps justify my presence.



Edited, Oct 5th 2008 2:25am by Tyrandor
#7 Oct 05 2008 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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Loaar wrote:
PvP is balnced around group play in WAR, which is exactly as it should be.


Then I'm just being too impatient. Smiley: smile

Lower level scenarios just remind me too much of WoW battlegrounds which are basically "every man for himself" experiences. I've noticed that heals are being tossed around more frequently, though. Maybe I've just been too focused on rushing in and killing as many bad guys as possible before I drop to notice it. Again, something that has carried over from The Gameā„¢.

I'm sorry if I came off as a little naive and hostile. That was not my intention and I really appreciate that you took the time to explain the PvP mechanics to a nubcake like me. I just have to twist my head around it now, but it'll come.

I looked over the Black Orc paths (what do you call them in this game?) and the one that focuses on greatweapons seems to make the career pretty nasty later on. Maybe I'll give my stuntie stompa a chance, but right now I'm enjoying the Marauder, despite the lack of heavy armor and huge weapons. Having a big blade instead of your right hand makes up for it.
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#8 Oct 05 2008 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, you can generally tell if you are going to win a lower tiered scenario based on whether people communicate and healers don't run around erratically...

8 times out of 10 when we communicate what points we're taking and where we're going next, we win. If no one talks (or responds to my suggestions) then i know we're pretty much up a creek.

As for the topic, Yeah, my Ironbreaker at the lower levels can dish out damage, but nothing is better than seeing a chosen, witch elf, or other destruction class go running after a healer and me getting in their way, literally stopping them and giving the healer enough time to retreat. Now that's what a dude with a shield should do!
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#9 Oct 05 2008 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
Most classes seem to mirror really well (as mentioned in this thread).


Black Orc/Ironbreaker --tank with high survive, lower dps
Witch elf/Witch Hunter --high dps and squishy when caught
Shaman/Archmage --good heal, okay damage from range and squishy when caught
Chosen/Swordmaster --tank as BO/Iron, though few swordmasters seem to play as a tank 1-20
Sorceress/Bright Wizard --high dps very squishy range
Zealot/Rune Priest --great healer from range, low dps
Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest --melee healer, godly 1-20 when played well
Magus/Engineer --turret pets and range dps

Though at this point 4 careers seem to be a bit cross-balanced in playstyle to me:

Squig Herder / White Lion and Shadow Warrior/Marauder would be the mirrors on the surface

SH- seems to be pet dps/utility with range damage
WL- seems to be pet dps while acting as pet cleric doing melee
SW- seem to all play from range, though I know the stances have midrange and melee abilities that make them squishy killers
M- seems to be all be played from close range melee, though my understanding is they have the arm-based stance mechanic akin to SW.

But that is just based on what I have seen levels 1-20 when lots are learning classes and not necessarily playing niche roles well.
#10 Oct 05 2008 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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it gets a lot better in T2. my chosen's a **** rock, and while i may not touch a marauder's DPS, i'm scoring well and dropping my share (and more) of opponents in scenarios.
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#11 Oct 05 2008 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Black Orc/Ironbreaker --tank with high survive, lower dps
Witch elf/Witch Hunter --high dps and squishy when caught
Shaman/Archmage --good heal, okay damage from range and squishy when caught
Chosen/Swordmaster --tank as BO/Iron, though few swordmasters seem to play as a tank 1-20
Sorceress/Bright Wizard --high dps very squishy range
Zealot/Rune Priest --great healer from range, low dps
Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest --melee healer, godly 1-20 when played well
Magus/Engineer --turret pets and range dps

Though at this point 4 careers seem to be a bit cross-balanced in playstyle to me:

Squig Herder / White Lion and Shadow Warrior/Marauder would be the mirrors on the surface

SH- seems to be pet dps/utility with range damage
WL- seems to be pet dps while acting as pet cleric doing melee
SW- seem to all play from range, though I know the stances have midrange and melee abilities that make them squishy killers
M- seems to be all be played from close range melee, though my understanding is they have the arm-based stance mechanic akin to SW.

But that is just based on what I have seen levels 1-20 when lots are learning classes and not necessarily playing niche roles well.


Close, but not quite.

Black Orc = Swordmaster -> Both class use the same 'builder' system.

Iron Breaker = Blackguard (Who isn't in the game atm) -> The Breaker's Grudge system is going to be extremely similar to the BG's Hate system

Chosen = Knight (Who isn't in the game atm) -> Both are aura based tanks.


As for the 4 you left unlinked, from my understanding:

Squig Herder = Shadow Warrior... the SW's stance and different abilities are represented by the SH's pet. They also fill the same niche in RVR/pve.

Marauder = White Lion... again, they share many similar abilities (like that leap thing) and fill the same niche in RVR/pve.


Oh and, that leaves the obvious last pairing:

Hammerer = Orc Choppah
#12 Oct 05 2008 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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#13 Oct 05 2008 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Yeah, spoiled by WoW.
No matter what the people over on the Warrior forum will tell you, Warriors are incredibly imbalanced in WoW and are only not at the top of the ladder anymore because Rogues are even more broken. There roles has been split over 2 career in WAR >_>, you actually got to choose between dps and survability, the horror!
Edited, Oct 5th 2008 2:25am by Tyrandor


Now, forgive my ignorance here, I was lurking about in curiosity about people's experiences with WAR.

For the warrior/rogue comment, disregarding arenas, in BGs the fact that you are a melee class has certain impact in what I would describe as "infantry blob battles". It's something I came up with in the process of trying to understand BG strats better. When the size and variety of both groups is large enough (6+) that you can no longer distinguish individual abilities and have to treat them as a mass of infantry and assess it's quality based on size/proportions of types of abilities.

The closer you are to a blob of enemies the more enemy DPSers will have you within range of their attacks. If you eventually come into melee range with the enemy blob you're in range of all of it's DPSers, and also probably the only within range of the DPSers of the far back of the enemy blob. If it turns out to become important to kill someone at the far end of the enemy blob you will be within range of the attacks of the entire blob and outside of the range of your healers. So when gearing a melee class for WoW BGs I need to gear a lot more HP than when gearing a ranged class.

Thing is that being a squishy that fights in melee range is a very bad tactical decision for blob battles unless your -only- objective is to pick off enemy melee that get inside of your own blob. So I was of the opinion that giving high survivability to all melee was "balanced" along those lines.

I wonder how the melee squishy works in WAR, just thinking I probably wouldn't roll one.

I hope you don't mistake my opinions for the typical "I should be IMBA and you're wrong" types of posts that plague class related discussions.
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#14 Oct 05 2008 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Melee DPS classes use medium armour and have decent survivability in PvE. In PvP, nothing has great survivability on its own, except maybe a healer. Even then, your not going to live long 1v1 against someone putting out a fair bit of dmg unless your geared for it. This often means sacrificing your healing power a little, so finding the balance is important. Also, while a healer can hold off a DPS sometimes, without help all your really doing is taking 1 player out of play since you'll be busy trying to stay alive.

Tanks also have great survivabilty, but enemy spellcasters will take you down pretty fast. The tradeoff there is that your damage output is alot less than a DPS class.

As I said earlier, the game's PvP is balanced around group play, so having your DPS being able to take alot of hits isn't balanced. Where most people seem to get the wrong idea I think is that the majority of people complaining are in pug's, and coordination > all in a game balanced around group's.
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#15 Oct 05 2008 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I will admit I have been having a problem keeping my Witch Elf alive in T3 scenarios. Stealth seems too weak in this game, and I am unable to sneak behind enemy lines without getting caught. Assuming I do make it, and I pick out a squishy to kill, chances are I get taken out before landing a killing blow.

I am only rank 23, so I am still at the lower end of the tier, but I do have some concerns. If I get a little more burst damage to at least take out that primary healer target I will be happy.
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#16 Oct 05 2008 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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yes but once you get next to me I'm toast without backup.
#17 Oct 05 2008 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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i find healers are way too hard to take out. i prefer going after bright mages first if given the option, because theyll be the ones taking out your tanks on the front lines. then after that, ill go for rune priests, warrior priests, and archmages next, in that order (level changes this, as ill go after a low lvl AM before a high lvl RP).

having a DoK with you while you do this makes life a LOT easier. having a tank (BO or chosen) use guard on you and charge thru the front line (or do whatever it takes to stay in range so guard works) means you live a LOT longer. the extra DPS and the healing from the DoK make him a threat, and this tends to pull aggro off of you, but at the same time, they NEED to kill you, because youre such a high DPS class. meanwhile, your tank is swapping guard based on the most immediate need (and as limitations allow) as well as doing his best to disrupt things.

ive found that solo killing things as a Welf is just too difficult against a group thats coordinated, as the DPS will jump on you the moment you get on a target. but bringing just one more Welf with you (or a marauder) means you can take out 3-4 squishies in the backline before they take you down.

if it becomes too much trouble to get to the backline, ill usually at that point go into squishy defense mode, where i wait for witch hunters and white lions to come in after our backline and help finish them off faster. sometimes this pulls a tank or healer out of position in an effort to help the erstwhile DPS, and this can give you the opening you need to get thru into the enemy backline. of course, that requires actual coordination, which can be a problem at times.
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#18 Oct 05 2008 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are able to equip 2 handed sword instead of sword + shield that should be making a pretty large difference in damage.

I know in the case of my DOK I use a chalice in PVP that helps me be more survivable and a slightly more efficient healer at the cost of DPS.

The damage might not seem like much but chances are man. You gotta realize most of the healers in this game can tank your **** easily with some kind of pure -50% physical damage reduction. As my DOK right now I can stand there as one of those big burly 2 hand hammer using dudes beats on me while my hp continues to go up..

I just use a move that gives me an incredibly powerful 50% damage reduction.. He can be doing all kinds of power moves and sh*t while my HP goes up because I cast a HOT on myself LOL... If you are going to take down a healer you need at least 2 people to do it man. I can stand there indefinitely right now as my DOK while a single damage dealer tries to take me down. Only when another enemy helps him out I start to actually take damage.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are being hit with a similar move every single time. You like to be a big DPSer and attempt to solo some random healer?
guess what your doing 30-50% less damage and the guy has other moves that make it so most of that damage gets absorbed.. and on top of that they probably drop your str and slow your attack speed down too... before you know it your 2 hand sword starts doing really pathetic damage!

LOL..
In FFXI I would murder for a pure 50% damage reduction ability that they gave me for a few silver at level 7 LOL.

50 @#%^ing percent.. Yeah you might start feeling like you do **** damage. There are a few reasons why. Now I am not entirely sure if the other healers have 50% damage reduction like DOK has.. they might have stuff that does less or even more. Keep that in mind though.. Because if DOK gets a pure 50% damage reduction tool at level 7 then the people who made this game are clearly willing to spread moves like that around.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 2:58am by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 3:08am by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 3:09am by thorazinekizzez
#19 Oct 05 2008 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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Almost all classes have the -50% dmg move, its called deataunt. AFAIK only tanks ton't have it, for obvious reasons.

And that 2 handed hammer guy? Thats your mirror class, the Warrior Priest, not a DPS class. Of course you can tank him, your the same. Wait til your rank 40 and have a rank 40 White Lion tear you to shreds.
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#20 Oct 05 2008 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:


I know in the case of my DOK I use a chalice in PVP that helps me be more survivable and a slightly more efficient healer at the cost of DPS.


challices are a massive waste in pve or pvp, they generally dont even have half the stats of a sword, and you lose dps.
#21 Oct 05 2008 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
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the way ive noticed it works is that ranged classes tend to have a single target detaunt, while melee dps (white lion, welf, witch hunter, marauder) tend to have an aoe detaunt. the difference there is that the aoe detauns tend to have half the duration of their CD, while the single target ones have equal CD and duration.

i think. ill know more for sure when my marauder gets higher.
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#22 Oct 06 2008 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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While my BO doesn't put out the numbers nearly as well as other melee DDs, I found that I am far more likely to win 1 on 1's against a DD. Seems my uber defense about makes me equal with a DD that happens to jump me. Turns into a battle of 1000 paper cuts. Almost always ends with them running away. If they don't I can usually win.

If a freaking BM or just about any other caster DD rolls up, I'm the one who's hauling **** out of there. 1vs1 seems very rock, paper, scissors but I guess that's ok since it's designed with the idea of people working in groups complimenting each others strengths and weaknesses.
#23 Oct 06 2008 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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MasterOfWar wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:


I know in the case of my DOK I use a chalice in PVP that helps me be more survivable and a slightly more efficient healer at the cost of DPS.


challices are a massive waste in pve or pvp, they generally dont even have half the stats of a sword, and you lose dps.


With the stats on some chalices I see my healing potency go from 190 to 210 tic on all hots and my tier 1 moral ability jumps to about 950 ish.

Also I don't believe DOKs damage is worth the loss of ANY healing potency. I tend to always see myself being much more worth while when I play as a healer than as some DPS want to be. DOKs who front line and try to do damage exclusively are a waste of a slot....

Also with 50% damage reduction I have had all matter of 2 handed weapon users GIVE UP after attacking for little while. 2 hand sword users and white lions with their gimp pet. loltiger.. its like seeing a bst roll up with a crab familiar on your rdm/blu lol... I don't believe I have ever once died as a result of one of those lions. The owner of the lion is another story though..

Seriously 50% damage reduction is really strong.. I have often forced a good damage dealer, close combat melee or ranged, to waste time trying to kill me while all I did was target other people and toss out heals and such.

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 11:45am by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Oct 6th 2008 11:56am by thorazinekizzez
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