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#1 Oct 01 2008 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I have noticed a couple of races dont even have tanks. Are tanks not important in this game like they are in wow?
#2 Oct 01 2008 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Good observations, where you see the most issues with lack of tanks especially for the order is in the RvR play scenarios. Put 3 – 4 destro tanks in with an RvR and no order tanks and see how fast the game ends. Destro tanks can chew and spit out most other classes in the order.

The only time I have seen some good stuff from the Order in RvR play is throw 3-4 White Lions into the mix. They seem to be able to turn the tide against the Destruction players. The most successful Tier 1 games I have played typically have White Lions or the Dwarf Tank class. If those classes are missing look to be hurt in RvR play.
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#3 Oct 01 2008 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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tanks are important, just the DE and empire tanks were cut about 6 months ago.

hopefully they will be back in one form or another.
#4 Oct 01 2008 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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From what they said, they removed them because they couldn't get them properly balanced and well defined before release, as well as fully bug tested. They *will* be back, along with the remaining racial cities, etc. There's a lot coming down the line.
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#5 Oct 01 2008 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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In PVP your healers typically end up tanking most of the time lol..

I think this also touches on some of the reasons why tanks are not as important in a PVP game.. Who in there right mind would target the tank first?

In PVE mobs are dumb.
They target the guy with the most hate and healers get to live.

This game not so much...

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 1:12pm by TheCastle

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 1:15pm by TheCastle
#6 Oct 01 2008 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I take the wait on a few classes and cities as content to look forward to! ; )

Knight of the Blazing Sun looks mighty awesome. Really want to check one out. Hope they allow them to be both sexes, unlike Chosen which can only be male.
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#7 Oct 01 2008 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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scubamage wrote:
From what they said, they removed them because they couldn't get them properly balanced and well defined before release, as well as fully bug tested. They *will* be back, along with the remaining racial cities, etc.

they said the cities will be back, the classes were never guaranteed to come back.
#8 Oct 01 2008 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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TheCastle wrote:
In PVP your healers typically end up tanking most of the time lol..

I think this also touches on some of the reasons why tanks are not as important in a PVP game.. Who in there right mind would target the tank first?

Why I stopped playing my non- AoE fearing/rooting Archmage target. I loved the class, but I spent more time running away than actually healing lol. It was not that bad, but let's just say those Witch stealty players loved to kill me /sigh.

Now as a marauder I'm enjoying doing on-to-others, I go mainly for casters. Loving it lol. As they say "Can't beat them, join them".... I did.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 1:46pm by GYFFORD
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#9 Oct 01 2008 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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The lack of an Empire tank can be a real liability when trying to do public quests in Nordland. I eventually just gave up and moved my leveling to the Dwarf area, as I was tired of repeatedly failing Stage III of the PQs.

I'm glad the cross-region queueing went in. I've seen much better balance in the Tier 1 Scenarios at least. Doing Nordenwatch was alway a pain. The Chaos tanks would just push our poor fragile Bright Wizards all over the place. :)
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#10 Oct 01 2008 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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GYFFORD wrote:
TheCastle wrote:
In PVP your healers typically end up tanking most of the time lol..

I think this also touches on some of the reasons why tanks are not as important in a PVP game.. Who in there right mind would target the tank first?

Why I stopped playing my non- AoE fearing/rooting Archmage target. I loved the class, but I spent more time running away than actually healing lol. It was not that bad, but let's just say those Witch stealty players loved to kill me /sigh.

Now as a marauder I'm enjoying doing on-to-others, I go mainly for casters. Loving it lol. As they say "Can't beat them, join them".... I did.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 1:46pm by GYFFORD


Im telling you guys one of the best strats is going to be gearing up your healers so they can take as much damage as possible XD..

People will have to target the healers first and it ends up just like PVE with tanking. And if it ends up that people leave healers alone they lose that way too..
#11 Oct 01 2008 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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Tank aren't just tanks though. They also provide very useful buffs/debuffs, snares and in some cases, they can even take some damge instead of a friendly target. All-in-all they are great to have around, even in PvP.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 1:58pm by Lathais
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#12 Oct 01 2008 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Lathais wrote:
Tank aren't just tanks though. They also provide very useful buffs/debuffs, snares and in some cases, they can even take some damge instead of a friendly target. All-in-all they are great to have around, even in PvP.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 1:58pm by Lathais


can you go into more detail of what functions a tank provides in a pvp style game.
This is my first time in a pvp style mmo.

I don't know exactly how tanks are supposed to function. At the moment it barely even makes sense to me if everyone ignores the tank and rapes the healer time and time again.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 2:12pm by TheCastle
#13 Oct 01 2008 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I havn't played my tank that high yet, but the Black Orc in particular provides a lot of buffs and debuffs that get applied to his defensive target when he does his damage abilites. Things like weapon skill increases, toughness increases and things of that nature. So as long as he sticks by the person that is getting hit, he can provide mitigation for some of the damage, making that taget easier to heal.

The Chosen, that I played briefly, had "curses" which are Point Blank AoE abilites that buff friendly units and debuff enemy units in the range. You can only have one up at a time, but when changed they have a residual effect for a few seconds, so it's easy to keep 2 up, and I've heard of people keeping 3 up.

The Dwarf tank has an Oath Friend, with which he shares damage and things. I have the least experience with this one though.

Basically, while thier damage may not be great, in PvP they will provide a lot of utility.


Edit: one more post and my post count will be 1337, lol.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 2:51pm by Lathais
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#14 Oct 01 2008 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Lathais wrote:
Well, I havn't played my tank that high yet, but the Black Orc in particular provides a lot of buffs and debuffs that get applied to his defensive target when he does his damage abilites. Things like weapon skill increases, toughness increases and things of that nature. So as long as he sticks by the person that is getting hit, he can provide mitigation for some of the damage, making that taget easier to heal.

The Chosen, that I played briefly, had "curses" which are Point Blank AoE abilites that buff friendly units and debuff enemy units in the range. You can only have one up at a time, but when changed they have a residual effect for a few seconds, so it's easy to keep 2 up, and I've heard of people keeping 3 up.

The Dwarf tank has an Oath Friend, with which he shares damage and things. I have the least experience with this one though.

Basically, while thier damage may not be great, in PvP they will provide a lot of utility.


Edit: one more post and my post count will be 1337, lol.


So a tank in pvp is really a utility buff type of class that protects the clothies in more indirect ways..

The idea is still the same but the way in which things are done is very different.
#15 Oct 01 2008 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Basically, yes.
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#16 Oct 01 2008 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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The biggest balancing issue right now is that the destruction tanks take a ton to bring down yet give out a ton of DPS. It makes palying them fun, but wow. Freakin black orcs are the worst.
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#17 Oct 01 2008 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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see what would have made more sense to me is if your healers were typically the big beefy shield using dudes with heavy armor and such.

Sucking at DPS they would run in and take damage on the front lines while healing others.

Then you can make the DPS vary more on lower class armors and things of that nature. So you mages with high damage would typically have cloth armor and your front line DPS like warrior classes would be using 2 hand weapons and medium armor ect.

So you healers would be the ones brandishing short swords heavy armor and shields.

Maybe thats what they will do for some healers on the order side down the road.

#18 Oct 01 2008 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, look at Disciple of Khaine. They dual wield, have medium armor and have to melee in order to be able to heal. Shaman get bonuses to thier heals when they deal damage and bonuses to damage when they heal. Those are the only healing classes I have experience with, but the other seem to do more than just heal.
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#19 Oct 01 2008 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Using collision, tanks can stop enemies going after the healers. just be annoying to those chasers.
#20 Oct 01 2008 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, a perfect example of good tanking in PVP is getting a few ironbreakers together and holding enemies invading a keep on the steps... Just line up, Phalanx style and nothing can get by, as long as healers are at your back keeping you safe.
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#21 Oct 01 2008 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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it's nice to see you can actually do that. in the pvp i've seen so far it's mostly alot of fokls running around in circles (literally) spamming attack abilities/snares, but all i've played are the T1 scenarios and there isn't alot of strategic terrain (no choke points, the objectives are wide open and undefendable, etc).
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#22 Oct 01 2008 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Tanks are very important in PvP. Obviously players can chose to ignore them, however many of thier abilities are about crowd control, damage mitigation to the rest of your group. buffs etc.

The whole game is balanced around group combat. If your sole strat is to go after the healers, a premade group who knows that thier doing will make you pay. Each career has a role to play, you only win in PvP if everyone plays thier role.

It a completely different style of play to most PvP in other MMO's, but it works, and works well.
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#23 Oct 02 2008 at 6:21 AM Rating: Decent
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GYFFORD wrote:
Why I stopped playing my non- AoE fearing/rooting Archmage target. I loved the class, but I spent more time running away than actually healing lol. It was not that bad, but let's just say those Witch stealty players loved to kill me /sigh.

Now as a marauder I'm enjoying doing on-to-others, I go mainly for casters. Loving it lol. As they say "Can't beat them, join them".... I did.


Yes, except now you'll hate warrior classes. The vicious cycle.
#24 Oct 02 2008 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Chauce wrote:
GYFFORD wrote:
Why I stopped playing my non- AoE fearing/rooting Archmage target. I loved the class, but I spent more time running away than actually healing lol. It was not that bad, but let's just say those Witch stealty players loved to kill me /sigh.

Now as a marauder I'm enjoying doing on-to-others, I go mainly for casters. Loving it lol. As they say "Can't beat them, join them".... I did.


Yes, except now you'll hate warrior classes. The vicious cycle.


Already do =P Later levels I'll be able to hurt them with pummel? w/e the move is called where I hurt their block/parry. I can't wait. Swordmasters = nightmare to melee gyf.

Witch hunters are no walk in the park either lol.


Edited, Oct 2nd 2008 11:23am by GYFFORD
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#25 Oct 09 2008 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Tanks are very useful in pvp in this game, and their best jobs include defending the squishies, just like in PvE.

Collision can help you prevent people getting to classes, in open areas it can be difficult but still possible.

IBs have access to single target and AE; knockbacks, snares and an AE root (I assume other tanks have similar options). For example the IB has potential access to a talent which makes one of their ae attacks knockback all targets hit AND snares them by 40% to help prevent them getting close again.

The damage of the IB is not to be taken lightly. Of course it isn't as good as a dps class, but they have access to good AE and single target damage skills, so ignoring them isn't exactly a way to avoid damage.

Lastly buffs and debuffs. The IB can buff an ally with + toughness/armour/strength/willpower/crit rate. He can buff him self so he does more damage against a target until that target attacks him 3 times, or debuff all targets within a cone so that they do less damage against any target other than the IB. These last two abilities either encourage players to attack the IB or make the IB and his group happy that they are not attacking him.


Overall there are plenty of very advantageous things a tank can provide whether or not people are attacking him, and he can encourage people to attack him, or prevent them from attacking someone else.


oh and they're lots of fun.
#26 Oct 09 2008 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Lathais, about buffs/debuffs (auras) You can have up to 3 at a time! Usual duration of aura is 12-13 seconds, and cooldown time is around 3 seconds, so you can activate 3 at same time.
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#27 Oct 09 2008 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been playing a dwarf tank for the Order and it started to really depress me around level 20. I know I'm not the best at pvp but the destro tanks clearly have better... something... than the order tanks. Whether is a more developed economy, abilities, items or stats/armor, it's almost impossible to kill a destro tank my level.

I've tried most everything I can think of but the problem seems to be lack of damage. Maybe all the destro tanks are speccing for damage and I specced for defense, but lemme tell ya damage wins by a longshot.

If there is little PvE (and there is no way to make someone target you in PVP) a tank doesn't make much sense on a selfish personal level. It may benefit the party because idiots will attack the tanks first for some reason, but the smarter players just run by and the best I can do is slow them down or knock them back for a few seconds. It is a wholly unsatisfying experience, especially when coupled with the lack of dwarf damage. Tanks really need a way to make the other side have to fight them other a debuff. In scenarios the morale ability to root a person for 10 seconds has the nasty side effect of rooting him too far away for you to hit him due to lag. So lame.

Many of our moves are useless as well. I have a move called "Hold the line" which buffs the people behind me. The animation makes a big show of the dwarf putting his shoulder to the shield and try to block something. The best part is when a destro tank just jumps OVER me to get at my healers while I'm stuck looking like a dumbass.

The biggest problem is the lag in scenarios though. It's much harder with a melee class, so damage output is also important here as the guy you are fighting has a tendency to suddenly be 50 feet away. Scenarios are also the fastest way to level so truth be told a tank is probably the slowest recipe for leveling.

So all in all an order tank may be great to have in the party, but it kinda sucks to be in the game. I love this game don't get me wrong, but I don't see why tanks are needed at all with the exception of the public quests and maybe some dungeons, which no one seems to do. (E.G.- sewers)




Edited, Oct 10th 2008 3:46am by isoparam
#28 Oct 10 2008 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
and there is no way to make someone target you in PVP


lol i don't seem to have a problem with this. walk up and stick an axe in a healer or mage's face. it gets thier attention, and thier whole team's attention. they might not be targeting you at first, which is great, lets you pick your target and get a few swings/DoTs on. by the time they realize 'oh **** this guy's up my ****' my first target's dead and the whole team shifts fire to me. i am most definitely a threat. i like to pal up with a DoK, it lets him heal and dps like a mad ****. stay organized, get with a guild. most pvp are goatscrews with just folks farming renown. take even a small group of tank dps healer ranged, and you can clean house.
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#29 Oct 10 2008 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I just respecced offensive tree and was doing pretty well in there. I guess I have to color myself stupid on this one, and mention that the offensive tree is the way to go without a doubt.

I stand corrected.
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