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I support gil buying.Follow

#1 May 05 2006 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, I support gil buying with every fiber of my being.

... There, now that I've ensured that I'll be defaulted by the 90% of people on this forum that only read the topic and the first sentence, then rate a post, I'll get further into this with only the people who are actually going to listen as my audience.

I support gil buying. No, I do not buy gil. I am a dirt-poor college student who couldn't afford gil if she wanted to, and believes anything past the $15 membership fee for my character and my three mules to be a waste of money I need for food and rent. So, the "u onleh suppert it cuz u'z a gil buyerer" argument, though the trump card of most people's ********* does not apply here.

And no, I do not go to college in China, so I don't support gil buying because it feeds my nonexistent family.

I do, however, strongly support buying gil. If you've been around this game like I have, and been in the amount of parties I've been in, maybe you would too. This is going to sound a little like bragging about my jobs, but don't try to confuse the two, I'm actually slightly ashamed of how much I've played this stupid game. But, I am a WHM75, BLM75, BRD75, DRG73, PLD66, NIN60, THF54, WAR/MNK/RNG/SAM/RDM/SMN 37, and no other job I have is below L:10.

Yes, it's sad. Yes, I know. But that is neither here nor there. The point is, in my extensive experience with EXP parties, I have been in my share of bad ones. I've seen a Warrior with equipment so bad that he missed a whole Rampage on a Very Tough enemy. I've partied with a Ninja in the 40s who did not have Utsusemi: Ni because he couldn't afford it. I've had a Ranger in my party meleeing with daggers and not shooting arrows because they were too expensive. I've invited a full AF Monk with a L:50 weapon to a L:75 merit party because I figured it was a trustworthy enough venture. I've had my EXP dragged through the ground by these sorts of people, all of whom don't buy gil.

On the other hand, I've been in parties with Warriors with Peacock Charms, Haubergeons +1 and all sort of crazy equipment, who know so little about the game that you can be sure they didn't earn any of it. But, they did their job, because it's brainless work playing a melee damage dealer, and the EXP came rolling in. I've partied with all sorts of decked out melees, some of which earned all they had, some of which didn't, neither time did I ask or care. In each case that this has happened, I was happier in my party than I would've been with an honest gimp, any day.

.. And no, I'm not saying everyone who buys gil is a bad player. That's just stereotyping, and there are plenty of gil buyers who keep it a secret and no one ever knows, who are very respected players across all servers. In fact, usually one's book knowledge of FFXI has very little bearing on their ability to do their job. I've seen people who know a heck of a lot about the game come out and stink up the joint in a party, trust me.

But, the bottom line, the overriding factor of this game, is how much EXP you get per hour. You can tell me you'd take an honest party of hard-working Joes and Janes without good equipment, bringing in 3,000 EXP an hour, over a group where you and five gil buyers tear up the area for 6-8,000 EXP in the same amount of time if you want. Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point. Nearly everyone will turn a blind eye to the blatant signs of bought gil when faced with going literally twice as fast as a gimp party, and I will eagerly admit I'm no exception. Forget morals, making a statement and playing with badly-equipped EXP voids isn't worth the time I have to devote to it.

I understand the fact that gil buying messes up the economy. I saw it firsthand over Christmas when Behemoth Hides were 20 million gil each on my server. I broke a pair of Unicorn Leggings someone was having me make, and they quit the game because their life savings was gone in that one second. I felt bad about that, that inflation can ruin a person the way it ruined my client. But, life goes on. Inflation is only temporary, and only half caused by gil buying anyway. The other half is Japanese players who don't buy gil, but have an infinite supply, and will pay whatever it takes to get an item. Hence why Gun Belts jumped from 30,000 to 7 million gil in one sale on my server. Risatan to Misapon is definitely not a gil buyer sale, I can assure you. Although gil buyers are responsible for part of the problem, and I acknowledge that, it's not the whole deal or even close.

But why, if these things happen in the economy, do I still support gil buying? Well, I am an endgame player. I have a L:100 craft and endgame linkshells, I have no shortage of money and, if things ever look grim, I just spam craft and I'm back on my feet. The average economy that players toil under doesn't affect me anymore, so I'm free to not care about it. I am not the only endgame player in this sort of situation, either. Many of my friends are also free of the shackles of the economy, and can concentrate soley on playing the game.

I feel bad for people who see the items they desperately want being pricejacked, and then bought by some gil buyer or loaded JP player, but there's nothing I can do about it. Regardless of whether or not I support or protest the sale of gil, it will continue unabated. There's no use trying to fight it.

... But, back to the topic at hand. A lazy person who won't go out and farm, craft, camp NMs and do whatever it takes to get good equipment is a worse burden to a party than any gil buyer could ever be. In melee jobs in particular, it's not enough to know what you're doing, you need the money to back it up. Ninja, an increasingly popular job, can only function if the person is loaded--both with talent and gil. The almighty dollar is the overriding force in the efficiency of most jobs to a party.

Do I prefer honest, hard-working people who got their money legitimately, but still tear enemies apart as well as or better than any gil buyer? Of COURSE I do. Those are my favorite types of players, and if everyone was that way, I would be protesting the sale of gil like the rest of you.

But, we live in the real world here, and the general mentality of players on FFXI is "if I can't afford it, it's optional." Erase is optional, Utsusemi: Ni is optional, elemental staves are optional, food is optional, critical spells and items are optional, everything that makes a player worth a party spot is considered in this day and age to be OPTIONAL. And trying to be anything but a sponge is most definitely optional.

To be a worthy party member, a person needs certain things. The only ways to get those things are to go out and work hard, level a craft and take part in a good linkshell... or to buy gil. While I would prefer the former to the latter, I would take the latter in a heartbeat over just doing neither.

I've had too many parties ruined by lazy sponges and people who won't earn money to care how they get gil anymore, as long as they have it. If that means buying gil, I support their decision to do so, because it'll lessen the amount of horrible parties significantly.

In a utopian world, no one would have to do their part to contribute to a party. But FFXI is no utopia. I support people doing what they have to to contribute to my parties, even if what they have to do is buy gil. They're wasting their money, but hey, I don't know them. They can do whatever they want the other 364 days of the year, but as long as they come prepared to EXP and put their whole heart into it while they're there, I couldn't possibly care any less if they have bought gil, have stolen items, have MPK'd people for NMs. It all just seriously doesn't matter to me.

Ethics are out the window. The only true factor in this game is how fast a party gets EXP. Put your morals aside and think about your character, because it's a video game, and you play it to have fun. Go out and fight for your causes in the real world, where your voice could actually help a lot of good things. Leave FFXI for enjoyment and the betterment of your character.

Now default me please, any publicity is good publicity. Agree with me or disagree, I'm just happy people have opinions. :3

Edited, Fri May 5 14:06:55 2006 by CellyO

Admin Edit: Locked for necro posting.

Edited, Apr 5th 2008 5:01pm by Exodus
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#2 May 05 2006 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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CellyO wrote:
... There, now that I've ensured that I'll be defaulted by the 90% of people on this forum that only read the topic and the first sentence, then rate a post, I'll get further into this with only the people who are actually going to listen as my audience.


What are you talking about? I'm rating you up, as should everyone else here. At least you're honest and know what this website stands for now.
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#3 May 05 2006 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't care if this website stands for the slaughter of kittens and puppies, as long as there's good discussion here.

I have no morals.
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"You mean they don't have Mahatma capes on Gilgamesh?"

"hahaha, your sig deserved it's own quote and post. Funny, we have Mahatma Capes here on Siren."

Such unsubstantiated arrogance on these forums. :3
#4 May 05 2006 at 1:12 PM Rating: Default
Rate up, nice post, and your right, most gil buyers dont go advertising that they do and those who do buy, buy in small amounts, just enough to keep their gear in check, maybe get crafting up so they can make their own profit etc.

Just I do see others who are correct too.. those noobs who buy a lvl 75 account.. then bring shame to it.. =/

That or people who braggartly show they buy gil and try to rub it in others faces. Anyways.
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#5 May 05 2006 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I support gil buying.


it's OK, so does Feba.
#6 May 05 2006 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I didn't mention bought accounts because I despise them as much as everyone hates gil buyers. It wouldn't have made sense with what I was going for if I'd taken a strong anti-stance on anything, and when the sale of characters is brought up, I can't help it.

Some of these characters cost a thousand dollars. That's like half a semester's tuition, two months rent or a downpayment on a car. If someone's going to spend that kind of money just to come stink up my parties, there will be no mercy. <.<

When I quit the game, I'm giving everything I have away to my friends, passing leadership of my Dynamis shell to one of the officers, then deleting the heck out of my character. >.>

Edited, Fri May 5 14:17:45 2006 by CellyO
____________________________
"You mean they don't have Mahatma capes on Gilgamesh?"

"hahaha, your sig deserved it's own quote and post. Funny, we have Mahatma Capes here on Siren."

Such unsubstantiated arrogance on these forums. :3
#7 May 05 2006 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You can tell me you'd take an honest party of hard-working Joes and Janes without good equipment, bringing in 3,000 EXP an hour, over a group where you and five gil buyers tear up the area for 6-8,000 EXP in the same amount of time if you want. Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point.


I would definately take the 3,000 xp per hour party over the 6-8,000 gil buyer party. And I honestly don't really care whether you believe me or not. My morals aren't going to go "out the window" because of how fast I can level up in a video game.

My jobs levels are no where near where yours are. I've been playing over a year. My highest job is a lvl 62 whm. And that's my static party job. My static party, where we don't buy gil, we help each other get our AF, and we only pt once a week. Most likely, it'll be the first job I get to 75. But I don't play the game to race to lvl 75. I play to have a good time, hang out with my friends, make new friends, and just have fun. I am a firm believer in that gil buyers / gil sellers play a LARGE part in helping prices to get so high that people can't just enjoy this game, it has to be like a job. You have to constantly wonder how you can make money. You have to grind out crystals or silk threads instead of lvls with friends. It's boring, but it's what you have to do in order for people will think you're worthy enough to party with them because you have the gear that's required for your level.

You know, so that people won't expect you to slow down their xp in a party because they don't buy gil.
#8 May 05 2006 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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The simple solution to your post is to pay attention to who you invite. If someone comes with crap EQ to a party you start, you should never invite them again. You should not tell them "go buy some gil dude." You should tell them "go earn some gil dude." Because, what's the difference to you? Might as well encourage legitimate earning of gil if possible because as you said it messes up the economy a bit to buy money.

It's true that you can't distinguish between gil buyers and honest players, and fine if you want to benefit from the money gil buyers invest in their equipment.

But if a player is too lazy to get good equipment, that has nothing to do with gil buying. It has to do with them being a crappy player.

Also I'd love to see a Ninja tank well if he was a gil buyer decked out in the best equipment. What you say might be true for Monk or something but not for every job... And either way, they would be a BETTER player IF they had spent more time with their job and earned the gil themselves. It's that simple. It's the same as Powerleveling.
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#9 May 05 2006 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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You hit the nail right on the head. Rate up to you, excellent post! I agree with you to a "T". Now, I may not go and buy gil, but I could really care less about others that do. The economy already went out the window, so if you do what you need to do to get ahead in this game, then by all means that's fine with me. True, gil buying raises prices, but so do the people that are willing to pay those prices. It's a catch-22. All I know is that I am happy where I am as a player, being I've been playing almost a year. I can keep a steady gil-bank with some crafting and farming and that's fine with me.
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#10 May 05 2006 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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and are you serious about $1000 for a character?!?! o.O That's just insane!!!!!! [thinks about what she could do with $1000......]
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#11 May 05 2006 at 1:28 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira, I respect the moral stand you would take, though I couldn't agree with it. You gave the sort of good reason I was asking for for doing so, so I'm actually really happy with your answer. I'm a much more jaded player than you are, I don't take moral stands anymore, but I'm glad to see that people still would. Half the reason I said what you quoted was to see if anyone actually had a reason past just saying "bcuz" for doing so, and you do. Bravo.

Also, I do encourage people to make their own money. That was the major point of my post. I was simply saying that I'd rather a person bought gil than did nothing, not that I'd prefer they go blow their paychecks on gil before trying to do the work.

Anyone you invite to a party is a gamble, and when someone gets to the team, I'm too compassionate to kick them no matter how bad they are. There's an actual person behind every character, and I try to tell them what they can be doing better and nurture them into being better players if I do have them. But, I'd still prefer killing machines any day of the week, who I didn't have to talk to, and brought me good EXP.

I prefer statics to pickups anyway though. <.<
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"You mean they don't have Mahatma capes on Gilgamesh?"

"hahaha, your sig deserved it's own quote and post. Funny, we have Mahatma Capes here on Siren."

Such unsubstantiated arrogance on these forums. :3
#12 May 05 2006 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira, I respect the moral stand you would take, though I couldn't agree with it. You gave the sort of good reason I was asking for for doing so, so I'm actually really happy with your answer.


Thank you. And thank you for your honesty in the op.

Quote:
But, I'd still prefer killing machines any day of the week, who I didn't have to talk to, and brought me good EXP.


I'm not trying to sound rude, this isn't a sarcastic question. But if you don't want to talk to other people, why are you playing an MMORPG? I'm honestly just curious. :) Everyone plays these games for different reasons.
#13 May 05 2006 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Double edged sword i suppose. Truth behind the words above thats for sure. Exp gets boring after a while on any job. I am enjoying lvling the lowbie Blu, and have had some fun exp parties with REAL-newb's not noob's, and they have draged exp down while they learned there role in their job.

Again, its clearly stated, this is an endgame opinion...free of the constraints that bind alot of players that do not take the time to learn how to make gils, or did not have restraint over the dec to feb craziness of the economy...so take whats said above with a grain of salt...

**** take what's posted in all forums with a grain of salt...

I don't require people to have the best gear in order for them to party with me, but like others i like people to do their job...or atleast learn how it should be done...don't like a persons gear, give them advise and don't invite again without finding out if they have better gear??

food usuage, is not optional...its pretty much required...give them food? show them the value? TEACH and move on...

As for Japanese players not buying gil...thats a laugh (hope the above comments are sarcastic)...as many JP's buy gil as we, NA's do, as EU's etc...the economy did not go nuts while JP's slept...and the above speaks of JP awe or hidden sarcasim...hopefully the second, not the first as they are no better than any other player on any given day (atleast now and have been so for the past year).

As to breaking such an expensive synth leading to a person quiting...if you where gonna charge for the hq...you should have replaced it...unless that was stated in your agreement before hand, (ie I break it, you lose, I synth I win, I HQ I win again)...

I don't really care about gil buying, I am not gonna flip out on people who are for or against it...it, like the person above, does not really effect me to any great degree that i can't compensate in some way...i go broke, i craft, undercut the market huge, make gils by volume and move on...again, an endgame opinion...


I ramble and have lost track of my thoughts i will edit later...


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#14 May 05 2006 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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I love the discussion in my linkshell and my Dynamis shell, as well as when I'm helping people or crafting for them. There are a lot of nice folks in this game, and I appreciate a fun talk as much as the next person.

But EXP is business to me. If people are talking I'll join in, but I'd really prefer not to have to help someone in the ways of the game. If we're tearing through everything in sight and talking about the latest movies, I'm going to love it, but I'd greatly prefer not to write FAQs for people or tell them how to make a living.

Casual discussion is nice, I just don't want to get emotionally involved in a party or have to explain things if I don't have to. And I'm just as happy if nobody says a word and I'm talking in the linkshell the whole time. <.<

Don't get me wrong, this game is crazy-boring and I'd lose my mind if I had no one to talk to, but pickup parties aren't my primary mode of conversation.

Edit: Oh, and I know there are lots of JP players who buy gil, but I'm just being realistic.

Gainsborough the L:100 Bonecrafter with a Maat's cap is definitely not a gil buyer, but sure as heck hurts the market by being willing to pay anything for an item she wants.

Ostrea, who's on his fourth relic weapon (already has Ragnarok, Gjallarhorn and Excalibur, going for the shield now) and has every craft at 100 across mules, isn't a gil buyer but does his part to destroy the economy. There's not enough gil in the entirety of IGE to fund what Ostrea's got, earned 100%, by playing from Day One, Hour One.

I'm sure there are plenty of JP players who buy gil, but after being on Gilgamesh for over two years now, I pretty much know who's who, and what pricejacks are being caused by legitimate players. Sometimes people even make mules with Japanese names to do their gil buying sales, like Hagehage, so no one suspects their main characters. All sorts of crazy stuff happens, but one of the least crazy things is legitimate players with infinite gil causing extensive damage to the economy. I see it all the time.

Edited, Fri May 5 14:54:14 2006 by CellyO
____________________________
"You mean they don't have Mahatma capes on Gilgamesh?"

"hahaha, your sig deserved it's own quote and post. Funny, we have Mahatma Capes here on Siren."

Such unsubstantiated arrogance on these forums. :3
#15 May 05 2006 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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The utility spells and equipment are not that expensive. Granted we can't expect every War to have a full Unicorn set for example, but the basic stuff doesn't really cost that much. Elemental Staffs and spells like Erase can be bought simply with the beastmen seals you get a long the way.

You're basically saying that the utility equipment/spells are impossible to get for the average lazy player. I'm saying that even a lazy player should have enough gil to buy the basic necessities. Everything else is superfluous. Peacock charms and Scorpion Harnesses +1 don't make the difference between 3k/hour parties and 8k/hour parties. Granted they help, but from what I can tell (I've been playing since the NA release) this game relies much more on skill than it does equipment.

A bad player isn't bad because he didn't buy gil. He's bad because he doesn't understand the mechanics of how to play his job.

**example** (just had to add this)
I join a ~lvl65 party in Bibiki Bay. I notice we have a Galka Blm and my initial impression was worry that he wouldn't be able to hold his own. Then I notice how much mp he has and I'm astonished. Unable to resist the urge, I /check him, only to see... he's got the absolute best possible equipment possible. I'm no longer worried. However, that worry quickly returns during the first few fights when we discover that he has no idea how to play his job, much less MB. He doesn't even understand the concept of hate.

To make a long story short, we kicked him before we even had a replacement. Gear means a lot less than you think in the grand scheme of things.
**end example**

A good player isn't good because he bought 500mil gil from IGE to pimp out his character with +1 gear. He's good because he understands how to play his job.

NQ gear is just fine, as long as it's the right NQ gear. It does not cost a fortune to do well in exp parties.

There's no rationalizing gilbuying.

I would rate the OP down, but I respect a well presented and well thought out opinion.

Edited, Fri May 5 14:55:43 2006 by SeleneGaruda
#16 May 05 2006 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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From what I see, there are three fundamental problems with buying gil. The first, of course, is that it violates the ToS of the game - something most people ignore at this point anyway... The second is the number of unskilled and lazy high level players it creates, because they never went out and did BCNM or ENM or what not for money, and think they can get by on gear alone. In my experience, many of them are not that bright... but that's beside the point.

The third is what I have the biggest problem with by far. By buying gil, players support the sellers. The sellers get their gil from somewhere, and we all know where it comes from. The RMT farmers that exist on every server, who cause us endless grief. Many NM drops are nigh impossible to get by camping because RMT players are always there. Since they control the supply, they also control prices, and make the items more difficult to get. Gil buying would be a minimal problem to me if not for these RMT players that make everyday tasks more difficult - until recently, their MPK tactics have interfered with my experience points parties, even. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of legitimate players that are just as bad, but there you go.

Additionally, since they are no longer able to MPK (easily, at least), they have resorted to far lower strategies. You may have seen these as well; when a player is able to outclaim them on a monster, either by skill or chance, they will /shout to everyone in the area that you are using a speedhack or other third party tool (and oftentimes they are using a tool themselves, while making the accusation). This, though an annoyance in itself, is often evidence enough for a GM to jail an honest player... while they will watch RMTs spam and steal without reacting.

I suppose I wasted a lot of time typing all this out to make such a short and obvious point... but the fact remains that gilbuying directly leads to difficulties of other players. Think about that before you click the BUY button, ok?
#17 May 05 2006 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, this game is crazy-boring and I'd lose my mind if I had no one to talk to, but pickup parties aren't my primary mode of conversation.


Fair enough. I'm just too talkative for my own good. ;)
#18 May 05 2006 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
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I am sorry you spend your money that you parents or you make on fake stuff, rather than buying food...
or **** maybe buying some poor ppl food...
no buy some fake gil, its like an E-***** pump... do you fell small?
yay you have a number of 75 job's!
but only becuse you never had to spend time to make money
hey you do what you want... its your $
i just think its a very dumb idea
#19 May 05 2006 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Selene, that's just my point. Elemental staves, arrows and a few scrolls here and there really aren't that expensive, but there are people all over every server who are still unwilling to earn the money to buy them. I've played with countless. Regardless of whether or not it's so hard to earn that kind of money, the fact remains that there's a large crowd of players who don't. Players who log in and only EXP, neglecting to do anything outside of a party to make any gil whatsoever, skipping whatever they can. A Warrior who misses a whole Rampage doesn't have passable NQ equipment, nor does a Ranger who won't fire arrows and melees with daggers. I love passable NQ equipment as much as you do, and have no problem with people who use it, but I was really talking about those who don't even go that far.

.. And yes, I'm aware that gil buying does have an adverse effect on parts of the game, and gil sellers themselves are total locust pests. But, life goes on, and this is going to be here forever, regardless of how long we protest. We all live in a Vana'Diel that will always have gil buying, so we've got to come to terms with how we feel about it, because it's not going away.

----

Edit: Micitan. I don't buy gil. I don't live with my parents or mooch their money, otherwise I wouldn't be broke. I'm not male, so I have no *****, real or E-. To top it all off, I'm pretty sure you didn't read a word of my post. Are you one of those topic-and-first-sentence readers I mentioned right off the bat? Weren't you supposed to just rate me down and go away? XD

Edited, Fri May 5 15:03:20 2006 by CellyO
____________________________
"You mean they don't have Mahatma capes on Gilgamesh?"

"hahaha, your sig deserved it's own quote and post. Funny, we have Mahatma Capes here on Siren."

Such unsubstantiated arrogance on these forums. :3
#20 May 05 2006 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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What happens when you're an honest player and you don't need to buy gil?

I bet in merit PT I'd blow you and your gilbuying buddies out of the water.
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#21 May 05 2006 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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CellyO, the type of player you describe as being unable to even buy the basic necessities is extremely rare in my book. What's the % of people who play ffxi that fall into this category? You're saying it's this percentage that makes gilbuying ok.

As far as I can tell, this part of the ffxi community that falls under the "ok to buy gil" category for you is as least less than 5%. It's ok for this minority to support the rmt that ruines the experience for the large majority of the community?
#22 May 05 2006 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In each case that this has happened, I was happier in my party than I would've been with an honest gimp, any day.


True for most of us here.

Quote:
Regardless of whether or not I support or protest the sale of gil, it will continue unabated. There's no use trying to fight it.


That attitude is why slavery lasted as long as it did.

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#23 May 05 2006 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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432 posts
Credos, I said I prefer players like you, we don't actually have a disagreement. Go back and read the topic.

Selene, it's a large enough number that I've had many parties ruined by it. I'm not supporting full-scale gil buying for all, I'm saying that it's better than doing nothing to support yourself. One faulty member can kill the EXP per hour of a whole team, and the less of those, the better. In pickup parties, it's common enough that it happens once or twice a week, and since I've been playing for over two years, it's enough to drive me to this point. Perhaps your server is better off than mine, perhaps it's not and you're just getting lucky, but there are EXP sponges like this in all walks of life.

Dragonbruce, we can hardly compare this to slavery. It doesn't even compare well to blood diamonds or retail clothing sweat shops. Even though all are money-making ventures, gil buying doesn't take such horrible advantage of a person as these other things, or anywhere close. Being a gil seller is actually a fairly good job in China, and they are hardly forced to work until they die. ... Unless you were comparing us players to the slaves, and the slight inconvenience it all brings upon us to the plantations, but that's even sillier. Gil selling will stop when SquareEnix puts a stop to it. They know it's a problem, they know everyone's frothing at the mouth for a fix, they're not ignorant of the issue. They're the only ones with any power to do anything, and a grass-roots movement on a message board won't change this.

Edited, Fri May 5 15:14:12 2006 by CellyO
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#24 May 05 2006 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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CellyO wrote:
Credos, I said I prefer players like you, we don't actually have a disagreement. Go back and read the topic.

Selene, it's a large enough number that I've had many parties ruined by it. I'm not supporting full-scale gil buying for all, I'm saying that it's better than doing nothing to support yourself. One faulty member can kill the EXP per hour of a whole team, and the less of those, the better. In pickup parties, it's common enough that it happens once or twice a week, and since I've been playing for over two years, it's enough to drive me to this point. Perhaps your server is better off than mine, perhaps it's not and you're just getting lucky, but there are EXP sponges like this in all walks of life.


I've seen the gilbuying parties you refer to. I was in Cape Teriggan leveling my BRD next to a group of well known gilbuyers. They were pulling cocaktrices from the level 62-64 camp to the Valley of Sorrows zone, and getting absolutley owned.

No matter how you cut it, exceptional gear does not make up for a ****** player.

Here's an idea, instead of ******** that the people are poor players and yet still invite them to PT because they are refresh whores or tanks, refuse to party with them.

And yes, I did read your whole post. I just find the timing of this thread ironic, suddenly now its ok to say buying Gil is ok. Sorry, but people who support Gilbuying can go suck on RMT's wet noodle. When they camp U for 24 hours a day and Argus the spawn, maybe you'll understand why I'm against them.
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#25 May 05 2006 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I've invited a full AF Monk with a L:50 weapon to a L:75 merit party because I figured it was a trustworthy enough venture.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=1789 ?
#26 May 05 2006 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
I agree with a lot of your post. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say I "support" gil buying- but I definately don't condemn it under certain circumstances. Jumping into a game and buying up everything that "everyone else has" with no actual knowledge or appreciation of what it does is wrong- but merely because it's retarded. Much like rubbing yourself in peanut butter while wearing your grandmother's underwear.

Some rough edges I'd like to smooth out:

Quote:
A lazy person who won't go out and farm, craft, camp NMs and do whatever it takes to get good equipment is a worse burden to a party than any gil buyer could ever be.


The lack of farming or crafting may not neccesarily be because they are lazy, but because they don't have time. However I see the overall point you were making. I could understand, although I wouldn't agree with it, someone buying gil in lieu of "working" in game. I honestly think that the best way to remedy this would be to make crafting skill ups a little faster, and more pleasing to the eye.

Quote:
I've partied with a Ninja in the 40s who did not have Utsusemi: Ni because he couldn't afford it.


I know this is a little off topic, but that's hogwash. He didn't have Utsusemi: Ni because he was too lazy to go out and quest for it. This isn't that an uncommon drop. Emp pins, P. Charms, I can understand. But somethings there are no excuse for not having. I got 130 seals still burning a hole in my pocket. And I have no problem helping someone in BCNM as long as I walk away with something- no matter how little. I suspect most people are the same way.

Quote:
Ethics are out the window.


This is obviously the underlying theme of your post. I don't think ethics in this game are out the window- I just think they are misplaced.

It's human nature for people to want to rally to a cause. To fight an "injustice". Most FFXI gamers (at least the ones that ***** and moan on these forums), for some reason, don't want to take up a worthy cause in real life- like poverty, overtaxation, just or unjust laws, or rallying for against a politictian. it's easier to just sit at your computer and ***** and moan about something that's taking place in a pretend world.

My stance is this: If you can afford it, and you don't have the time that some do to devote to this game to make sure you aren't "gimped", and you know what your doing in game (to a moderate degree), then yes- by all means, buy gil. i could care less. Because the fact is gil sellers aren't going anywhere.

I've said this a thousand times already- the only way SE is going to get rid of gil sellers in FFXI is to compete with them. This is a basic martial arts principle: the redirection of force is much easier to control than stopping the force head on.

Now, I have two questions for CellyO (and anyone else who wants to chime in):
1. If you had the money (you won the lottery or whatever), would you buy gil?
2. If you did buy gil, would you tell anyone?

Edited, Fri May 5 15:20:26 2006 by GalkaAnimal
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#27 May 05 2006 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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Actually it sounds more like you want to replace Xylia as Alla's resident karma *****. It's fashionable to bash the anti-RMT crowd at the moment, so anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest, are almost guaranteed rateups. If Allakhazam made a post saying, "Gotcha! It was all just a big joke. Feba was in on it too btw," you'd of course go back to bashing RMT if you thought it would get you a rateup. Anything for a precious rateup.


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#28 May 05 2006 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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432 posts
GalkaAnimal, to answer your questions:

No, I wouldn't buy gil. No matter how much money I had, I could always find something better to spend it on. Gil in this game is not an issue for me. I've made over 75 million gil from my Bonecraft, by way of tips or just spam synthing things for HQ. Over 50 million from BCNM drops, another 50 million from selling things I already had during inflation, then re-buying them when they came down again. Short of a relic weapon, there's not really anything I can't afford in this game. I don't need to buy gil to get what I want, as is the case for most players as ancient as I am.

And if I did buy gil, I would tell people. If you can't be proud of what you're doing, don't do it at all. It's better to tell someone something they don't like than to pretend to believe something they do. I could have an "Excellent" karma rating if I took people's feelings about what I'm saying into consideration and made politically correct posts that please everyone, but that's not being true to myself. Whether I'm defaulted or rated up, I'm going to be posting what I believe in. If I bought gil, I'd darn sure post about that.

I completely acknowledge that a large part of the reason I feel the way that I do is because of my financial situation on the game. Someone like Belkira, who has a very good reason for not supporting it, is the complete opposite of my position and still very respectable for it. If I were scrapping to get by, I would be a little more conflicted about seeing people flaunt HQ everything in my face and rub it in that I can't afford it. But, I've done my work on this game, and now my financial situation takes care of itself. I don't feel obligated to anything but the speed of my parties anymore, morals be damned.

Everyone has their own concerns on this game. I have a long list I could tell you that does involve morals at some point, on some issues, but gil buying simply isn't one of them. I acknowledge all your rights to care, but just because I don't care doesn't mean I'm off buying gil every day to fund a Lower Jeuno casino addiction.

I've done the whole moneymaking thing. It's worked out well for me. Someone tipped me a million gil for making their Unicorn cap just last night. I'm past that phase of the game. Now, I concentrate on having fun and EXPing my jobs, and the faster that happens, the better.
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#29 May 05 2006 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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432 posts
Okay, it's been fun, but I'm off to work on preparing for my finals. You folks have a nice weekend, and thanks for your responses.

To those who only read the first sentence and the topic, I'm gone now, you can feel free to berate me at your leisure. Have some fun and knock yourselves out. :3
____________________________
"You mean they don't have Mahatma capes on Gilgamesh?"

"hahaha, your sig deserved it's own quote and post. Funny, we have Mahatma Capes here on Siren."

Such unsubstantiated arrogance on these forums. :3
#30 May 05 2006 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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As much as I do not care for a lot of CellyO's posts, I must admit he has one good point here. I hate to get out to a PT and 10 mins in find that one of my melee can't get his TP up, or the rdm doesn't have dispel, or the blm doesn't have his tier II or III spells etc.

In that situation, I don't really care where they got their gear. I just now know, that I hate to get into a PT and realize I've wasted my time.

Also, their was a question asked about if I had the money would I buy gil. I have the money to easily be filthy rich in this game. Yet I'm 2 years in and just about to crack lvl 60, simply because I don't have uber amounts of gil, because I don't have uber amounts of time to devote to FFXI.

I will say this, if I ever did buy gil I might admit it, but only on a forum some where. I'd never admit it in game. I'd be ashamed, worried about the /tell comments about me in my LS.

So, I'm kinda with Celly, in that when I do go PT, since its not often therefor the time is precious, I want you in up to par or better equipment. My time is valuable, and I don't want anyone to waste it - even if they are good, honest, salt of the earth yet poor (gil wise) players.
#31 May 05 2006 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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321 posts
DP see below.

Edited, Fri May 5 15:51:16 2006 by OAjknightO
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#32 May 05 2006 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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321 posts
Although I do see your point I have to disagree. Most gil-buyers only have the equipment and are very hard to deal with. Sometimes they seem to be very irrashonal and do stupid things.
EX:
Paladin:BLM stop nuking after voke
BlackMage gil-buyer: I can hold him
Paladin vokes
BLM continues nukes
Mob attacks Blm
Blm dies
Blackmage: WHY DIDNT YOU VOKE IT
Paladin: I had 10 seconds till rcharge i told you to stop
Blackmage:well time your vokes better

Although some of them are good most of them are rude or immoral.
Cookies for you, I would rate you up...if I could.
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#33 May 05 2006 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Yep, there's no harm in playing with cheaters as long as you get something out of it, right? Duly noted.


Quote:
I would definately take the 3,000 xp per hour party over the 6-8,000 gil buyer party. And I honestly don't really care whether you believe me or not. My morals aren't going to go "out the window" because of how fast I can level up in a video game.


Ditto~
#34 May 05 2006 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
1. If you had the money (you won the lottery or whatever), would you buy gil?


No. Not because of some moralistic crusade or anything--it's just that I can find PLENTY of other ways to waste that kind of money. Besides, if I did have that kind of money, I could most likely quit my job and waste even MORE time amusing myself to death. ;)

EDIT: I suppose I should put my stance on gil-buying here, since it does seem at least somewhat relevant.

It's not gil-buyers that I despise so much as those who will pay any ridiculous price to be the first on the block with this week's shiny new bauble. To put it another way;

Buy gil if you must. But for the sake of your fellow players, be smart with it!

Edited, Fri May 5 16:13:10 2006 by QSlick
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Pluh.

Koalagal wrote:
I was driving to work this morning, just zoning out, listening to my radio, and out of the corner of my eye, I saw a BLACK MAGE TARU HEALING ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD! For one split second, I thought "Omg he needs to get out of there he's gonna aggro... what a noob."

Then, I realised it was a black garbage bag left out for pick up.

#35 May 05 2006 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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288 posts
Quote:
Buy gil if you must. But for the sake of your fellow players, be smart with it!


I for one have never bought gil, and never will... and this goes out to everyone.. If you do buy gil, Please don't think your uber gear makes you good at this game. Take the time to learn like everyone else. I don't care how your your gear is. I will still kick you from my party if you are an idiot, have no knowledge of what you're doing, and refuse to listen.
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#36 May 05 2006 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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The reasoning behind OP's post is faulty.

The OP is attempting to use what might possibly be the end result of gil-buying and/or inflation to justify the action itself.

Yes, those people who buy gil more often then not have really great gear, but we have to ask, why is the average player unable to afford these "uber" gears? Could it possibly be due to the excess amount of gil in the system that inflated the economy? Could it be that due to gil buying, players no longer hesitate to pay 6 mil for a SH?

So you support gil buying, which in essence is, imo, one of the causes of the reason as quoted by you. Hence, your arguement and reason behind it is faulty.
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#37 May 05 2006 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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897 posts
No, you do not deserve a rate down. You stated your opinion in a very clear manner to foster some discussion, so you deserve a rate-up though I strongly disagree with your position. Now, let me show you why point-for-point.

Quote:
I'm actually slightly ashamed of how much I've played this stupid game.


To be honest, it was almost worth not reading after this statement. No, not necessarily because you've spent so much time, but the fact that you're ashamed about it. You do realize at this point on you're arguing from your own perspective, which is fine because it's your opinion as you stated. But, that's exactly why it doesn't apply. Some of us don't spend so much time leveling all our jobs and playing the game. Let me ask: How many of those jobs did you actually enjoy? How many of those levels? Is your only purpose in this game to get exp per hour? That's certainly what it seems like, for even in those breaks in the game where you've pretty much maxed out one job or craft, why not take a little break? Just as you say no one can honestly argue they value the party with 3k exp per hour, you can not honestly tell me you valued all of that time on all of those jobs, and no, not solely because some of them had bad parties. But I'll get to that later.

Quote:
I've had my EXP dragged through the ground by these sorts of people, all of whom don't buy gil.


This argument postulates buying gil = good player. Not only that, but it also postulates the sole sake of people buying gil is so that you can level all those jobs which you already admit you shouldn't have. Hmm... Why encourage the rush to 75? Why encourage people to go for exp per hour over fun and enjoyment? You admit it's not something to be proud of, so why do you continue to support it?

See, I could dismiss this all if the argument wasn't about gilbuying. But by supporting gilbuying, you're supporting something which largely hurts others and helps the selfish few. Yes, it is about morals because the game IS a community. Every community has its problems, people who do wrong, or people who don't care. But overall the community as a whole generally shouldn't suffer or won't stand for suffering because of the rest. At the point that it does the community becomes pretty undesirable. So if you care so little about the game and the players in it, then realize that gilbuying (as you note later) will cause people to leave sooner. Why support something that forces people out of the community? So you can get your awesome exp per hour and play the game you admit you shouldn't be playing as much?

Quote:
But, they did their job, because it's brainless work playing a melee damage dealer, and the EXP came rolling in.


Yeah, it's brainless. It's also brainless to fight the same exact mobs regardless of whether you can honestly get better exp per hour by changing camps to a new place. It's brainless not chaining VTs until endgame by trying some new area to avoid over-crowding. It's brainless to just sit back and let auto-attack do everything for you, I agree. It's brainless to only provoke every 30 seconds as a tank. It's brainless to only use your highest nukes over and over as a mage because they look cool. It's brainless to spam only Cure on the tank because it works. It's brainless to get a Blink tank so you don't even have to spam Cure! Overall, yes, the game can be pretty brainless. Again, why are we supporting this? Oh! So we can help those brainless players achieve endgame like you, and then keep doing it all over again? Hey, while we're at it, let's all become robots and even sacrifice our own emotions so we can punch keys more efficiently.

Oh, and you tell me how often melees can be "brainless" at levels much lower than 70 and see how much the exp rolls in, then. Oh, but then I guess they would probably use more gil they bought to hire a powerleveler? Oops, but I don't want to just assume things as you have.

Quote:
In each case that this has happened, I was happier in my party than I would've been with an honest gimp, any day.


Good for you. Now the melee who really knows his job well will have a harder time reaching end-game trying to make money for the Haubergeon or Scorpion Harness the awesome WAR or NIN in your party attained with bought gil along with many others, thus jacking up the prices, all proceeds being donated generously to a corporation which is making a VERY tidy profit illegally off of someone else's work and while sacrificing the enjoyment of many subscribers. Congratulations on your level.

Quote:
But, the bottom line, the overriding factor of this game, is how much EXP you get per hour. You can tell me you'd take an honest party of hard-working Joes and Janes without good equipment, bringing in 3,000 EXP an hour, over a group where you and five gil buyers tear up the area for 6-8,000 EXP in the same amount of time if you want. Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point.


If the Joes and Janes are fun, why not? If they aren't doing their jobs, no. If the gilbuying players aren't doing their jobs and make for a horrible, stressful experience despite the exp per hour, I'd be happy to turn it down and leave after they find a replacement. Then again, they're so uber at getting exp, they probably wouldn't need a gimp non-gil buyer like me. To quote you, such a pt to me:

Quote:
isn't worth the time I have to devote to it.


Speaking of which, once again, I must belabor the point. It's not worth the time you admit is an exorbitant amount which you are not proud of? And sure, what about those pts where I had gil-buyers unknowingly? Well, could have happened. Does that suddenly make it all right, that I had a party with a gil buyer? No one has come out and admitted it, so I don't know if it was one of the good ones or not.

Quote:
I understand the fact that gil buying messes up the economy. I saw it firsthand over Christmas when Behemoth Hides were 20 million gil each on my server. I broke a pair of Unicorn Leggings someone was having me make, and they quit the game because their life savings was gone in that one second. I felt bad about that, that inflation can ruin a person the way it ruined my client.


It's okay! Feel better about it! He doesn't buy gil, and losing someone like him who doesn't spend so much of his time getting multiple jobs to 75 is no blow to you and your hardcore circle of friends. As you say, life goes on. Who cares that the community dwindles? You're still getting massive exp per hour with all the people who stayed and who graciously buy gil to advance your cause. Uh oh.. that's ******** more players out of the game because of the prices. Bah, who cares! You know why? You tell 'em, CellyO!

Quote:
Well, I am an endgame player. [...] The average economy that players toil under doesn't affect me anymore, so I'm free to not care about it. I am not the only endgame player in this sort of situation, either. Many of my friends are also free of the shackles of the economy, and can concentrate soley on playing the game.


Stop, one moment. I rated your post up, if it matters, for expressing your opinion, and I respect that you have. But now here's where I stand. I absolutely despise your position. Honestly, I hate it and I think it ruins the game for many people, including yourself whether you believe it or not. The end-game player who sits on his throne on top of everyone else, and ***** whatever happens now below because you're done with it. It doesn't have an affect on you. So why is everyone else such a "n00b" still compared to you? Why can't they just rush to 75 and buy gil and not have to worry about the economy either?

You're endgame? Guess what: I don't care. Your endgame buddies don't care. IGE doesn't care. And even you admit, you don't care. So you're free to play the game now? The game you've already spent too much time on? What about getting to 75? Oh, right, that's not the game, that's the tutorial! Silly me. Haha, some idiots are actually still stuck in the tutorial. And guess what? They haven't even inputted the /buygil cheat code yet to at least breeze through it like I did. It sucks playing with them, too! They actually want to have fun and not worry, so they'll even sacrifice some EXP PER HOUR! How can I get all my jobs to 75 and be on top of everything if these "n00bs" can't even finish the **** tutorial. After all, I do need them, if only for my race to 75. Then I can step all over them and not give two gil whether they quit or not. I'll still have all my awesome gear, crafts, and accomplishments. Right, guys? Guys? Hello? Anyone here?

Quote:
Regardless of whether or not I support or protest the sale of gil, it will continue unabated. There's no use trying to fight it.


So... your argument is "***** it, let it happen unrestrained because it happens, period"? I guess, under your logic, we should not take further measures to secure our airports because, ***** it, the terrorists got through and they will again. That's right, let's not take steps to at least combat gilselling and gilbuying. There will always be Crime. The point is to try and achieve a balance in favor of Justice, not to let Crime reign supreme and control your life. Man, you really do not get the point of a community, no offense.

Quote:
A lazy person who won't go out and farm, craft, camp NMs and do whatever it takes to get good equipment is a worse burden to a party than any gil buyer could ever be.


Until you show them how to play, kick them from the party, or leave the party... Oh, I'm sorry, that takes too much effort, right? This game is about playing, so let's continue to rush to 75 on multiple jobs so we can regret it all later.

Quote:
The almighty dollar is the overriding force in the efficiency of most jobs to a party.


In your world, yes. So let's continue to support jacking up prices and feeding the gilbuying cycle while turning more and more people away from the game? Right... Because you don't care, that's right.

Quote:
everything that makes a player worth a party spot is considered in this day and age to be OPTIONAL. And trying to be anything but a sponge is most definitely optional.


And people like you in your haste to 75 on a 3rd or 4th job keep inviting these people and then ditch them when the party is over without a word, perhaps? Again, ***** it, you'll never have to see them again, and if it gets particularly bad one day you can retreat back to your safe haven at endgame.

Quote:
I've had too many parties ruined by lazy sponges and people who won't earn money to care how they get gil anymore, as long as they have it. If that means buying gil, I support their decision to do so, because it'll lessen the amount of horrible parties significantly.


I've had parties ruined by Rank 10 players on their 3rd or 4th job to 75 acting like a complete jerk. I've had parties ruined by honest-to-goodness newbies who rightfully did not know everything about the game mechanics yet. I've had parties ruined by melee DDs in top-notch gear too afraid to kick up their damage and compete for hate. I've had parties ruined by every single job in the game. Given enough time, I bet I'll have my party ruined by Santa Claus eventually. Get over it, and get over yourself. You don't NEED 10k exp per hour to breathe and live.

Sure, let them buy gil because in your equation it automatically equals a better pt. I can tell you now you're wrong. But what do you care? You couldn't afford it, but you're at 75 on multiple jobs already. Who cares what players go through now? Who cares if they have to spend their hard-earned REAL money to make your playing experience better because you seem to have a lack of priorities in your life? Who cares? Certainly not you, as you've stated.

[quote]In a utopian world, no one would have to do their part to contribute to a party. But FFXI is no utopia.[/quote]

Seriously, go to WoW. Get another game. Do something else to challenge your idea of time well spent. That is not the idea of FFXI or its utopia. In my mind, utopia in FFXI is everyone DOING their part to contribute to a party and having fun forming the stronger bond of a party, an alliance, a community. It's not the rush to 75. It's not having the best gear possible all the time to show off or to think that will always help you perform better. Accuracy+10 doesn't mean it will automatically instill the player with skillchain timing, mob weaknesses, effective skillchaining, when to use weaponskills, how to gear swap, or anything else about the job. It just means, oh my goodness, your character now hits a little more accurately. And in your mind, that's the sole reason you should be invited to a party for exp.

[quote]Ethics are out the window. The only true factor in this game is how fast a party gets EXP. Put your morals aside and think about your character, because it's a video game, and you play it to have fun. Go out and fight for your causes in the real world, where your voice could actually help a lot of good things. Leave FFXI for enjoyment and the betterment of your character.[/quote]

Once again, your lack of the sense of a community or your own faulty priorities are not very applicable to FFXI or the overall sake of advancing the gilbuying cause. The only true factor is EXP? Please. At this point your post is barely worth reading anymore, as you've gotten the point across. You only care about EXP per hour, and we all should, too. Put your manners aside, and do whatever you want in FFXI because it is a video game. Those other characters? Haha, they're not controlled by other real people. The point of an MMORPG is just to be bigger than single player games or competitive multiplayer games, not for community, stupid! Haha! The only way to enjoy the game is through your own personal, selfish betterment, because that keeps the exp rolling in. Even if we lose community members or friends in the process, let's all buy gil, rush to 75, and be merry where we don't have to care any more about it all; and then, and only then, can we realize and wonder when did we sacrifice our enjoyment along with our morals, too.

Yeah, nice message.

Edited, Fri May 5 17:06:01 2006 by Caes
#38 May 05 2006 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
18 posts
If I know someone is a gilbuyer, I'd kick them out of the party and I would probably blist them. I won't support those scumbags sorry.

I may not care if I am on a site that supports it since the pros (database/forums) outweigh the concept of a parent company owning both sites, however that doesn't mean I don't care if someone in the game is actually ******** up mine and everyone elses gaming experience cause they are a lazy dork who wont get there own things in the game.

Now to be fair, I view people who just have their friends pl them and give them everything to almost as bad as gilbuyers, but at least they don't ***** up the economy.

Of course what I detest most about all of the gilselling/buying isn't the idiotic third world equivalent inflation, it isn't the morons who get great gear despite not earning it, it is in fact all the jerks who spend their lives camping X NM and then selling drops for high prices so normal players can never get the item.

This is why all great items should be Rare/Ex.

Want to get rid of gilbuying/selling? Make the high end items Rare/Ex only.
#39 May 05 2006 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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1,226 posts
Quote:
"At first we will object and protest to the gilbuying. Next, we will tolerate and deal with it as if it wasn't there. Lastly, it will become commonly accepted and viewed as normal, the more it's out in the open"


This is how our society went from "Leave it to Beaver" to "Brokeback Mountain". Same **** thing.

The more people justify gilbuying, the more people accept it as "Ok", the more it becomes commonly accepted as normal.

Then, when you look back to "then" and compare it to "now", you wonder how the f**k....

Some people enjoy the integrity they represent, opposed towards buying.


Edited, Fri May 5 17:05:23 2006 by mikesjusticee
#40 May 05 2006 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, and Nike should start producing cup seeking golfballs because that'd make people get through the course faster.
#41 May 05 2006 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
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Very nice. Rate up. I don't support gilbuying because some (or alot >_>) of gilbuyers just abuse it to make themselves feel and look better than others by taking a shortcut and being unskilled. Doing things like touching up some gear or whatever sure fine do what you will. Just don't turn into one of the overpopulated races on the servers I call "How the **** did they get through the dunes."

I don't gilbuy. I can't afford it even if I wanted to. xP

Sure I want HQ staff set and whatnot, and I'm a broketaru. I'm not gonna go gilbuying just to make myself slightly better than others. D: Or to support my crafts. But if some people have a loan to pay off or whatever, and don't go abusing this like the lottery and they have the spare cash they should go right ahead. Just don't ruin the economy. D:

-Sieg
#42 May 05 2006 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point. Nearly everyone will turn a blind eye to the blatant signs of bought gil when faced with going literally twice as fast as a gimp party, and I will eagerly admit I'm no exception. Forget morals, making a statement and playing with badly-equipped EXP voids isn't worth the time I have to devote to it.


IF it was against my moral code to buy gil AND I choose to force that on others, then I would not party with people who bought gil. Morals > Exp all the time.

And truth be told, there are enough people out there who really do care about it and really won't party with people they know have bought gil.

Thankfully, I just don't care if people buy gil. I understand the reasons. I understand that this is a free market too, though. Yeah, its against the rarely enforced TOS, but it isn't my job to enforce it or care if someone breaks it, honestly.

If SE started to enforce it, people would stop buying gil. If no one bought gil, no one would sell it. Very easy supply and demand formula, truth be told. The truth is that SE is out to make money, and if they started banning every account that buys gil, they'd shoot themselves in the foot.

So in the end, I can't say I blame anyone about the whole thing. Ideally, SE will either enforce it or get rid of it in the TOS. I suspect neither will happen. Not that it matters, gil selling and buying will go on for a long long time.
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#43 May 05 2006 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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1,763 posts
Some good points there by the OP. And some of the same things I have often thought about myself. I hate Gilbuyers much more than I hate Gilsellers. Without the buyers there could be no sellers. But let's forget that for a moment.

If you were the leader of an EXP party and you KNEW that a certain player looking for party was a Gilbuyer... would you invite them? And by that I mean that you KNOW... not that you simply suspect. They may have told you before or whatever... in whatever capacity. Would you still invite them to your party? Does your EXP mean more to you than the morals of inviting a known (to you) Gilbuyer? Because I tell you one thing... I would NEVER invite a player that I knew bought Gil.

Of course this is a hypothetical situation. The vast majority of Gilbuyers keep it secret as best they can. Because deep down they know that most other players would ostracise them for it. But it's question of personal EXP (right there and then) over your dislike for Gilbuyers. Where do your feelings lie on this?
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#44 May 05 2006 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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The bottom line is:

decent player + average gear < decent player + uber 1337 gear.

Doesn't really matter how they got the gear.

The irony, that nobody really gets, in this whole debate is, if you really pay attention you can make a lot of money off the gil buyers and sellers. That's the main reason I support RMT. It won't stop me from getting to level 75 and I can make a lot of gil off of thier own market manipulations if I'm clever enough.
#45 May 05 2006 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is how our society went from "Leave it to Beaver" to "Brokeback Mountain". Same **** thing.


Hey, gaybashing is not cool man. They're people too.

Tastes change. How do you think we went from petticoats and suits to jeans and skirts and whatnot? Although I don't completely agree with the previous statement, leave your little smartmouthed metaphores on another forum. Not this one. This is for gaming. =[
#46 May 05 2006 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,962 posts
The logic for supporting gil buying is so horrendous. You may accept it now because its impact is not very big, but once it becomes a mainstream concept that you want it to become, and you can no longer compete at all in any MMO because you cant afford to sell house and home to fund your imaginairy equipment you won't like it.

By your logic if a 6 year old with a golf ball that rolls into the hole automatically beat a professional golfer in the PGA tour, then that'd be ok, you know since they have money and it makes them go faster. You know they dont have to do all that tedius practice.
#47 May 05 2006 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Cellyo wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I support gil buying with every fiber of my being.

... There, now that I've ensured that I'll be defaulted by the 90% of people on this forum that only read the topic and the first sentence, then rate a post, I'll get further into this with only the people who are actually going to listen as my audience.

I support gil buying. No, I do not buy gil. I am a dirt-poor college student who couldn't afford gil if she wanted to, and believes anything past the $15 membership fee for my character and my three mules to be a waste of money I need for food and rent. So, the "u onleh suppert it cuz u'z a gil buyerer" argument, though the trump card of most people's ********* does not apply here.

And no, I do not go to college in China, so I don't support gil buying because it feeds my nonexistent family.

I do, however, strongly support buying gil. If you've been around this game like I have, and been in the amount of parties I've been in, maybe you would too. This is going to sound a little like bragging about my jobs, but don't try to confuse the two, I'm actually slightly ashamed of how much I've played this stupid game. But, I am a WHM75, BLM75, BRD75, DRG73, PLD66, NIN60, THF54, WAR/MNK/RNG/SAM/RDM/SMN 37, and no other job I have is below L:10.

Yes, it's sad. Yes, I know. But that is neither here nor there. The point is, in my extensive experience with EXP parties, I have been in my share of bad ones. I've seen a Warrior with equipment so bad that he missed a whole Rampage on a Very Tough enemy. I've partied with a Ninja in the 40s who did not have Utsusemi: Ni because he couldn't afford it. I've had a Ranger in my party meleeing with daggers and not shooting arrows because they were too expensive. I've invited a full AF Monk with a L:50 weapon to a L:75 merit party because I figured it was a trustworthy enough venture. I've had my EXP dragged through the ground by these sorts of people, all of whom don't buy gil.

On the other hand, I've been in parties with Warriors with Peacock Charms, Haubergeons +1 and all sort of crazy equipment, who know so little about the game that you can be sure they didn't earn any of it. But, they did their job, because it's brainless work playing a melee damage dealer, and the EXP came rolling in. I've partied with all sorts of decked out melees, some of which earned all they had, some of which didn't, neither time did I ask or care. In each case that this has happened, I was happier in my party than I would've been with an honest gimp, any day.

.. And no, I'm not saying everyone who buys gil is a bad player. That's just stereotyping, and there are plenty of gil buyers who keep it a secret and no one ever knows, who are very respected players across all servers. In fact, usually one's book knowledge of FFXI has very little bearing on their ability to do their job. I've seen people who know a heck of a lot about the game come out and stink up the joint in a party, trust me.

But, the bottom line, the overriding factor of this game, is how much EXP you get per hour. You can tell me you'd take an honest party of hard-working Joes and Janes without good equipment, bringing in 3,000 EXP an hour, over a group where you and five gil buyers tear up the area for 6-8,000 EXP in the same amount of time if you want. Trust me, I won't believe you unless you make a really good case for yourself, because morals are out the window at that point. Nearly everyone will turn a blind eye to the blatant signs of bought gil when faced with going literally twice as fast as a gimp party, and I will eagerly admit I'm no exception. Forget morals, making a statement and playing with badly-equipped EXP voids isn't worth the time I have to devote to it.

I understand the fact that gil buying messes up the economy. I saw it firsthand over Christmas when Behemoth Hides were 20 million gil each on my server. I broke a pair of Unicorn Leggings someone was having me make, and they quit the game because their life savings was gone in that one second. I felt bad about that, that inflation can ruin a person the way it ruined my client. But, life goes on. Inflation is only temporary, and only half caused by gil buying anyway. The other half is Japanese players who don't buy gil, but have an infinite supply, and will pay whatever it takes to get an item. Hence why Gun Belts jumped from 30,000 to 7 million gil in one sale on my server. Risatan to Misapon is definitely not a gil buyer sale, I can assure you. Although gil buyers are responsible for part of the problem, and I acknowledge that, it's not the whole deal or even close.

But why, if these things happen in the economy, do I still support gil buying? Well, I am an endgame player. I have a L:100 craft and endgame linkshells, I have no shortage of money and, if things ever look grim, I just spam craft and I'm back on my feet. The average economy that players toil under doesn't affect me anymore, so I'm free to not care about it. I am not the only endgame player in this sort of situation, either. Many of my friends are also free of the shackles of the economy, and can concentrate soley on playing the game.

I feel bad for people who see the items they desperately want being pricejacked, and then bought by some gil buyer or loaded JP player, but there's nothing I can do about it. Regardless of whether or not I support or protest the sale of gil, it will continue unabated. There's no use trying to fight it.

... But, back to the topic at hand. A lazy person who won't go out and farm, craft, camp NMs and do whatever it takes to get good equipment is a worse burden to a party than any gil buyer could ever be. In melee jobs in particular, it's not enough to know what you're doing, you need the money to back it up. Ninja, an increasingly popular job, can only function if the person is loaded--both with talent and gil. The almighty dollar is the overriding force in the efficiency of most jobs to a party.

Do I prefer honest, hard-working people who got their money legitimately, but still tear enemies apart as well as or better than any gil buyer? Of COURSE I do. Those are my favorite types of players, and if everyone was that way, I would be protesting the sale of gil like the rest of you.

But, we live in the real world here, and the general mentality of players on FFXI is "if I can't afford it, it's optional." Erase is optional, Utsusemi: Ni is optional, elemental staves are optional, food is optional, critical spells and items are optional, everything that makes a player worth a party spot is considered in this day and age to be OPTIONAL. And trying to be anything but a sponge is most definitely optional.

To be a worthy party member, a person needs certain things. The only ways to get those things are to go out and work hard, level a craft and take part in a good linkshell... or to buy gil. While I would prefer the former to the latter, I would take the latter in a heartbeat over just doing neither.

I've had too many parties ruined by lazy sponges and people who won't earn money to care how they get gil anymore, as long as they have it. If that means buying gil, I support their decision to do so, because it'll lessen the amount of horrible parties significantly.

In a utopian world, no one would have to do their part to contribute to a party. But FFXI is no utopia. I support people doing what they have to to contribute to my parties, even if what they have to do is buy gil. They're wasting their money, but hey, I don't know them. They can do whatever they want the other 364 days of the year, but as long as they come prepared to EXP and put their whole heart into it while they're there, I couldn't possibly care any less if they have bought gil, have stolen items, have MPK'd people for NMs. It all just seriously doesn't matter to me.

Ethics are out the window. The only true factor in this game is how fast a party gets EXP. Put your morals aside and think about your character, because it's a video game, and you play it to have fun. Go out and fight for your causes in the real world, where your voice could actually help a lot of good things. Leave FFXI for enjoyment and the betterment of your character.

Now default me please, any publicity is good publicity. Agree with me or disagree, I'm just happy people have opinions. :3


To the OP:

Ever since I heard about RMT the very first time, I've always been one of those people protesting against it, cursing it, and getting on anyone who says they don't hate it or stand against it. This is the first post I've ever read which was neither for or against RMT yet the best post I've ever read on the issue. This is most definetly the best thread I've ever read. This is the truth without any sugarcoating. You should get an award for this thread and have it stickied. You've officially changed my mind on gil buying/selling altogether. I'm just like you and won't buy gil or be apart of it in any way, shape, or form. However, I also am with you now in realizing their's not much we can do about it, and it truly is about the experience per hour in parties.

You used the best details you could possibly use in this thread to make your point. From this point on my protest against RMT, gil selling/buying is over. Even though I'm in no way near the point of attaining the wealth you have, which would exclude me from worrying about the economy or having the economy bear no effect on me like it has no effect on you, I won't bother continuing to waste energy opposing it after having read this thread. You've made me realize it truly is a waste of time doing so.

Thank you CellyO.

Edited, Fri May 5 17:40:17 2006 by Zephenia
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#48 May 05 2006 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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The OP obviously don't oppose it, or the negative effects it has on the economy. Because she has WAAAAAAAAAY too much time on her hands to find ways to compensate for whatever troubles might arise. Whereas us casual players, don't have so much free time on our hands.

I don't buy gil. I really don't care about the issue. But I won't "support" it. Thats just ******* dumb.
#49 May 05 2006 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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OP wrote:
I support stealing.
#50 May 05 2006 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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385 posts
The replies in this thread are the reason I didn't join a Sky LS and don't plan on it.

The truth of the matter is, I agree with the OP.

let's say, getting from 60-75 is a goal that requires a certain amount of a product.

A person with great equipment who earned it himself/herself, will get you that product at the best possible time window. We'll say 50 hours.

A person with great equipment who bought gil, won't do it as fast as that person, but will still do it in a marginally good time. We'll say 65 hours.

An honest person with crappy equipment will do it at the worst time window, but will complain about all the gil buyers on his way up. We'll say 100 hours.

This, no matter what type of classification you give it, is in the end a videogame. Taking a long time to beat a videogame just to avoid using loopholes, is pretty retarded.

As far as I'm concerned, you have no right to judge me if I choose not to disassociate myself with gilbuyers. If I invite Gilbuyers because I want to xp at 8000xp an hour and not 3000xp an hour. That's my every right, and no it doesn't make me a gilbuyer or even a condoner of gil-selling. And if you try to pull that umbrella discrimination bullsh** on me, you're even worse than gilbuyers yourself.

If you want to spend 100 hours doing something it takes me 60 hours or less to do, because you're "honorable", fine, so be it. When we're both 75 you can say you got there with honest players, and I got there not as honest as you, but you can't say I'm not an honest player because you don't know a **** thing about me.

And Credos, sure an honest player that doesn't have to worry about the economy is nice, but how many of those are out there seeking when you're looking for them? Seriously, it's just like saying, "Well hey why don't you just go get a 30 dollar an hour job and buy a mercedes huh? Instead of driving around in your lame Corolla you could just win the lottery and buy a Mercedes, it's so simple".

I do condone gilbuying, but only under certain situations.

Guy A really wants to play Dark Knight. Guy A also has 2 kids, a wife, an 8 hour a day job. Guy A also has a bonus check he doesn't need to spend on anything else, but he really wants his haubergeon/sniper rings, so he buys gil. I'm okay with him, and in MY eyes he's still an honest player. He isn't sacrificing time he could spend with his kids, time he could spend with his wife, or time he could be leveling and trying to get past the hours of timesinks this game has ASIDE from gil.

Guy B on the other hand, is just a rich kid or a rich person. He still plays the game for 10 hours a day but is just too lazy to farm to make money. Him on the other hand, I am not to thrilled with.

The only thing is, I'll still xp with either of them, than a DRG wearing full AF with only 15 accuracy bonus still using meat kabobs. I don't give a crap if you're honest or not, I'd take a person with better gear/food that knows at least the minimum duties of his job over you, because he'll help me achieve my goal sooner than you.

And tbh, I'm getting really sick of the witch hunt for gilbuyers/sellers lately. I've had worse experiences with "honest" players than RMT's.

The bottom line is, you play this game for a few years usually. From Day 1 to day 1000+ you could choose to have the majority of those days spent in JOY, happiness and fun, or you could spend the majority of those days in some little immature "war against RMT", but don't **** on other people's cereal just because they choose to enjoy the game instead of being a little wuss that takes the game too serious.
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#51 May 05 2006 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Although I do see your point I have to disagree. Most gil-buyers only have the equipment and are very hard to deal with. Sometimes they seem to be very irrashonal and do stupid things.
EX:
Paladin:BLM stop nuking after voke
BlackMage gil-buyer: I can hold him
Paladin vokes
BLM continues nukes
Mob attacks Blm
Blm dies
Blackmage: WHY DIDNT YOU VOKE IT
Paladin: I had 10 seconds till rcharge i told you to stop
Blackmage:well time your vokes better

Although some of them are good most of them are rude or immoral.
Cookies for you, I would rate you up...if I could.


/sigh

I've met quite a few gil-buyers and they turned out to be excellent players. And guess what? I've met non-buyers and they sucked ***.
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