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In Praise of the FFXI Auction HouseFollow

#1 Sep 02 2013 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have to say, I have never played in a game with an auction house I like as much as FFXI's.

Why? The combo of price history with blind bids rewards market knowledge and patience. Does this item sell quickly while being bought regularly? Put a steep discount on your price. Usually you succeed in getting the market price instantly - because most people just pay the last bid. Sometimes you'd get very little for your item - from someone like yourself who always cuts a steep percentage off the going price on their first bid. But often, you're getting your money back faster and putting it to work for yourself.

I guess I always felt like the XI auction house let me be a canny trader.
#2 Sep 02 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:
Put a steep discount on your price. Usually you succeed in getting the market price instantly - because most people just pay the last bid


This is why I think the AH should be changed. If a person bids an exact amount of a seller's item, then the first person who auctioned that item for that price should get their item sold. That's more akin to reality.
#3 Sep 03 2013 at 4:25 AM Rating: Good
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alma wrote:
If a person bids an exact amount of a seller's item, then the first person who auctioned that item for that price should get their item sold.


That's not how an auction works at all, hence 'Auction House'. At an auction, you start the bidding low and work your way up. The last sales history just gives you an idea how much people have paid in the past.

Shhh...trade secret coming....

You don't have to list the item the same price as the last sales. You could always list the item for less, so it sells first.
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#4 Sep 03 2013 at 4:51 AM Rating: Default
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klaus wrote:
That's not how an auction works at all, hence 'Auction House'. At an auction, you start the bidding low and work your way up. The last sales history just gives you an idea how much people have paid in the past.

Shhh...trade secret coming....

You don't have to list the item the same price as the last sales. You could always list the item for less, so it sells first.


I know it isn't how an an auction works, hence the reason why I said "more akin to reality".

1. If you're bidding on an item, you will bid the going rate, not a 100% markup price. So, if a person is selling something for $50 and someone else is offering the same item for $100, you're not going to offer the first person $100. You will pay them $50. If you decide to pay $100, you will offer it to the guy charging $100.

2. People undersell their products in order to sell it. If your products are selling at a fast pace, you will not undersell your products just to get a sale a few hours quicker. You would wait and get the full amount. Only if the product can't sell or you don't have any storage space would you undersell the way people do in game.
#5 Sep 03 2013 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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What? That doesn't even compute. We are talking about an auction, not some dirt mall you hang out at.

If your first bid for an item on the AH (IN FFXI NOT DIRT MALL) is the same as the last sale price, you're an idiot and have no idea how an auction works.

If your first bid is under the last sales price, you're doing it right. The last sales price is set by both the sellers and the buyers. If the buyers are willing to pay what the sellers are offering, then that is the price the market has determined. If someone decides that either a.) they want to sell fast or b.) they don't think the item is worth the last sales price, they can set the price at whatever they want. Even if it is lower than the last sales. You, the buyer, should be bidding low so you catch those low listed prices. That's called an auction (in the context of FFXI).

Go to a car auction. Tell me how that turns out. I'm pretty sure they start the bidding low and it works its way up as people nod for the next price. The only time it's different is if the seller sets a reserve.

Wait, why are you here?
...did Joph kick you out of =4 again?
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#6 Sep 03 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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wikipedia wrote:
A reverse auction is a type of auction in which the roles of buyer and seller are reversed. In an ordinary auction (also known as a forward auction), buyers compete to obtain a good or service by offering increasingly higher prices. In a reverse auction, the sellers compete to obtain business from the buyer and prices will typically decrease as the sellers undercut each other.


FFXI's AH system is most similar to this, where the seller is rewarded for undercutting. Personally I feel this is a great method in an MMO environment as it keeps "market values" where the people providing the products feel is fair by encouraging competition, while the consumer isn't completely screwed over on "day-to-day" items where supply is far greater than demand. In an MMO environment, this does one thing very well: It enables new players able to participate without getting crushed by overwhelming inflation and greed (though, to some extent, that will exist in any form of economy, FFXI does a way better job of keeping prices fair than say, WoW, where more often than not new players just resort to begging in the streets).
#7 Sep 03 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
The auction house in FFXI really isn't that much like a real-world auction anyway. (I've only ever once played an online game that did real auctions, in fact.)

But I do like the way FFXI's AH tends to have fairly stable prices, and I think the way the system is set up helps with that. The late (boo, hiss) City of Heroes' consignment house let people set large numbers of proxy bids without any cost, which made for massive price instability as people 'flipped' items. And with systems like STO's or WoW's (or what WoW had when I played it for a bit years ago, anyway), the complete lack of history makes it harder to judge what something's really worth at the moment.

~sleepygirl
#8 Sep 03 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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FUJILIVES wrote:

Personally I feel this is a great method in an MMO environment as it keeps "market values" where the people providing the products feel is fair by encouraging competition, while the consumer isn't completely screwed over on "day-to-day" items where supply is far greater than demand. In an MMO environment, this does one thing very well: It enables new players able to participate without getting crushed by overwhelming inflation and greed (though, to some extent, that will exist in any form of economy, FFXI does a way better job of keeping prices fair than say, WoW, where more often than not new players just resort to begging in the streets).


Yeah, I love this too. I also like that it allows people to play the market without a lot of capital. I was reminded of my love for the XI auction house while dealing with the XIV auction house recently. I dislike the "show listed price with no history" system they have adopted. I feel like it takes a lot of the reward out of the system. I dunno, I just always loved the feeling of shaving a few thousand off the last listed price when I caught people undercutting.


Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 12:26pm by Olorinus
#9 Sep 03 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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The history feature is also great because you can see when people are selling an item for less then the amount you get for NPC'ing it. When I run across this, I clean out the AH and NPC for a super easy profit.
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#10 Sep 03 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Klaus wrote:
What? That doesn't even compute. We are talking about an auction, not some dirt mall you hang out at.


Almalieque wrote:
I know it isn't how an an auction works, hence the reason why I said "more akin to reality".


What part of that do you not understand? IT IS NOT HOW AN AUCTION WORKS, but the concept of how you spend your money. It doesn't matter if it's an auction, store or from your BFF. Buyers want the lowest costs and sellers want the highest costs. The FFXI AH does not promote that, but is a hodgepodge of several different scenarios.


Klaus wrote:
Wait, why are you here?
...did Joph kick you out of =4 again?


Given the fact that I have never left this forum or ever been kicked by Jophiel, it's safe for me make some assumptions about you.
#11 Sep 03 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
The history feature is also great because you can see when people are selling an item for less then the amount you get for NPC'ing it. When I run across this, I clean out the AH and NPC for a super easy profit.


this is also a feature I like . This is also rendered next to impossible by XIV since they list the vendor sell price on each item and automatically set the vendor price as your price when you sell on the market, so you'd have to put a lot of work into sucking to let someone make a profit off of you that way. Nevermind that items are worth pretty much nothing to vendors in ARR.

#12 Sep 03 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI AH is more like commodities contracts and stocks that day traders do. You have two groups of people, buyers and sellers. Sellers post their asking price while buyers post their buying price, eventually the two WILL meet and the market naturally finds a price point. If there are vastly more sellers then buyers then the price plummets due to over supply, if there are more buyers then sellers then the price skyrockets due to under supply. SE modeled it after modern day trading.
#13 Sep 04 2013 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Klaus wrote:
What? That doesn't even compute. We are talking about an auction, not some dirt mall you hang out at.


Almalieque wrote:
I know it isn't how an an auction works, hence the reason why I said "more akin to reality".


What part of that do you not understand? IT IS NOT HOW AN AUCTION WORKS, but the concept of how you spend your money. It doesn't matter if it's an auction, store or from your BFF. Buyers want the lowest costs and sellers want the highest costs. The FFXI AH does not promote that, but is a hodgepodge of several different scenarios.



Why does the auction house in a fantasy world HAVE to have a real world corollary?

Personally I think the way the AH works in FFXI is brilliant. If I buy something, I bid what I think it is worth and if I get it great, I can walk away never knowing that the seller had actually posted it for 30% lower than what I bid. The seller is happy because they get an extra 30% over what they were willing to sell it for. Both parties are happy with the transaction.

As for your beef with the person who posted for the lowest price selling first no matter what, I think that is a brilliant way to do it since you are dealing with blind bids. It incentivizes lower prices because you don't want your product stuck on the AH for a long time. Otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to ever undercut a price because your product will never sell first unless the buyer somehow bids between your price and the next person up.
#14Almalieque, Posted: Sep 04 2013 at 4:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The intent shouldn't be "lower prices", but it should be a cross between the highest selling cost and the lowest buying cost. You're purely looking at this from one angle, which is why the current AH fails. It favors certain groups over others. Not doing so, would make it more competitive. I'm sure, on paper, this AH was a great idea. However, just with everything else in this game, the player base will find a way to exploit it.
#15 Sep 05 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Meldi wrote:


Why does the auction house in a fantasy world HAVE to have a real world corollary?


It doesn't. It just makes more sense to have a system where the seller can get the highest desired cost, while the buyer gets the lowest desired cost. I didn't request for an entirely new overhaul, but simply add in the one proposition. That is, if a buyer bids an exact price of a selling item, then the first item that was up for auction at that bid, gets sold. That creates a more competitive market, while not favoring one group (under cutters) over another.

It's actually pretty ironic that in the greed for money, people will fight for less money.



Your proposition does nothing whatsoever to improve competition in the market. All it does is interject an arbitrary rule into the market to try to change the behavior of the market. I would submit that your insistence on the creation of this arbitrary rule into the market is an indication that you have a very flawed understanding of how the current market works in FFXI, and you are just displaying your ignorance of how the market works. Posting an item at the exact price that you want for it is dumb for two reasons. First, you are just asking for your product to sell last. I know you want to change that, but in all honesty your proposal is completely arbitrary, and just demonstrates an unwillingness to adapt to the market in which you are working. In fact, your proposal would vastly change the behavior of the market. It almost invites sellers to get together and collude to set prices at an acceptable level so that they can always move their product. Second, AH listing fees become higher when you do that.

I haven't listed an item for the exact price I am looking for since about 2005. If I am putting something on the AH seeking 500 gil, I would never put it up for 500 gil. At the very least, I would have it at 499 just to beat anyone stupid enough to list it at 500 gil. I have actually set myself tiers for how I want to move a product. If something I want to sell is less that 1k on the AH I have 3 such tiers for my product. If I don't care about getting full price I will discount 199 gil or so, making something selling for 1000 gil go for 801 gil. I am perfectly fine with this usually for things that I am trying to sell in bulk such as individual ingots or ores. My next tier is my standard tier, price sought - 99 gil or - 9 gil, so 901 or 991 gil for the item. My last tier is full price - 1 gil. This is when I want all the gil for the product and I want to beat the people that listed theirs at 1000 gil.

Almalieque wrote:

Meldi wrote:
Personally I think the way the AH works in FFXI is brilliant. If I buy something, I bid what I think it is worth and if I get it great, I can walk away never knowing that the seller had actually posted it for 30% lower than what I bid. The seller is happy because they get an extra 30% over what they were willing to sell it for. Both parties are happy with the transaction.


Except for when your stuff keeps getting sent back, even after dramatically reducing your price several times, because there's always someone undercutting you later. The above proposition keeps it more competitive. So, your stuff will only sell at the undercut price if someone bids the undercut price. There is no logical argument against that.


Again, this is just exhibiting your lack of understanding of the market that you are working with and with general economic principles.

Almalieque wrote:

Meldi wrote:
As for your beef with the person who posted for the lowest price selling first no matter what, I think that is a brilliant way to do it since you are dealing with blind bids. It incentivizes lower prices because you don't want your product stuck on the AH for a long time. Otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to ever undercut a price because your product will never sell first unless the buyer somehow bids between your price and the next person up.


The intent shouldn't be "lower prices", but it should be a cross between the highest selling cost and the lowest buying cost. You're purely looking at this from one angle, which is why the current AH fails. It favors certain groups over others. Not doing so, would make it more competitive. I'm sure, on paper, this AH was a great idea. However, just with everything else in this game, the player base will find a way to exploit it.

Define "long time". That doesn't make sense anywhere outside of this game. If you know that your item will sell at full price, you will keep it at full price (or relatively close). Only in the scenarios where you think your item will NOT sell, or if you're out of storage, will you ever undercut a price. The only other scenario I can think of, is if you're desperate for some quick cash, which in this game, you're probably better NPCing.


You're right, the intent isn't "lower prices." The intent is always predictability. You don't introduce arbitrary rules into a market because that increases the unpredictability of the market, which causes problems in the market. Your rule only makes the market more unpredictable, and that is a horrible thing.

"Long time" - as with everything this will mean different things to different people, but when I am moving things in the FFXI market "long time" means any period of time greater than the time between when I log out and log back in. I am mostly in the market of middle goods, so I can't afford to have them sitting on the market for more than about 22 hrs because I only have 7 ah slots with which to work and every product that is still on the AH when I log back in is a slot that I am not getting the most out of. For more durable goods like Cursed Hauberk -1 or something "long time" would be one full cycle of AH posting without selling, because AH taxes cut into my profits and if I am going to post it, I only want to post it once.
#16 Sep 05 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always wished FFXI AH (ingame that is) had a search function without having to go online to find what I am looking for.
Otherwise it's great.
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#17 Sep 05 2013 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
Your proposition does nothing whatsoever to improve competition in the market. All it does is interject an arbitrary rule into the market to try to change the behavior of the market. I would submit that your insistence on the creation of this arbitrary rule into the market is an indication that you have a very flawed understanding of how the current market works in FFXI, and you are just displaying your ignorance of how the market works. Posting an item at the exact price that you want for it is dumb for two reasons. First, you are just asking for your product to sell last. I know you want to change that, but in all honesty your proposal is completely arbitrary, and just demonstrates an unwillingness to adapt to the market in which you are working. In fact, your proposal would vastly change the behavior of the market. It almost invites sellers to get together and collude to set prices at an acceptable level so that they can always move their product. Second, AH listing fees become higher when you do that.


You're confusing my lack of greed and desire for a more fair and balanced AH with not understanding how the AH works. Based off your response, I understand how the play the market better than you do.

Of course my proposition adds competition, that's exactly why you don't like it. You no longer have the "guaranteed sell" and have to compete with the people who sell their stuff at the listed price. It shifts some of the probability of a sell from you to your competitors, which by definition is COMPETITION. It doesn't prevent you from getting any sells, but evens out the probability.

Meldi wrote:
haven't listed an item for the exact price I am looking for since about 2005. If I am putting something on the AH seeking 500 gil, I would never put it up for 500 gil. At the very least, I would have it at 499 just to beat anyone stupid enough to list it at 500 gil. I have actually set myself tiers for how I want to move a product. If something I want to sell is less that 1k on the AH I have 3 such tiers for my product. If I don't care about getting full price I will discount 199 gil or so, making something selling for 1000 gil go for 801 gil. I am perfectly fine with this usually for things that I am trying to sell in bulk such as individual ingots or ores. My next tier is my standard tier, price sought - 99 gil or - 9 gil, so 901 or 991 gil for the item. My last tier is full price - 1 gil. This is when I want all the gil for the product and I want to beat the people that listed theirs at 1000 gil.


This is evident that I understand how to play the market better than you. You don't think people know about your -99 gil, -9 gil and -1 gil tiers? People are lazy and bid to the nearest zero. If they are lazy, but are some what concerned about getting the cheapest price, they will add that 1 gil, 100 gil, 1000 gil to get people like you. I take a step further and pick a more arbitrary number to sell it at. So, for something that costs 400k, people will bid by 100ks until around 300k and probably start bidding by 10k until 390k. Then by 1k till around 400k. As a result, I will sell my product for 326,458 gil. No one bids by 6k, so I'm more likely to get the 350,000 bids, because people like you would sell it for 350,100. That depends on the number of people selling. If there aren't a lot of people selling it, then I would sell it for 377,632 gil. After people try 375,000 gil, they will probably go for 390,000 or the full price. Likewise with buying. If I lose a bid at full price, I increment the same way.

Meldi wrote:
Again, this is just exhibiting your lack of understanding of the market that you are working with and with general economic principles.


Quite the contrary. As I stated above, my tactic is good in the sense that my stuff will sell, but it unnecessarily reduces the value of an item. If something is selling at "full price" at a constant pace, I would rather wait that 24 hours and get the full 500k than risk getting the 326,458 gil. I would rather wait that extra hour for 120,00k. I'm not sure what economic principles you are referring to, but this AH is not in the least bit realistic to economics, especially given the fact that if you're "poor", you can just buy gil. Furthermore, you don't have to pay rent, buy food, etc., so the overall concept of the value of gil is not the same as a real currency. As a result, people behave differently.

Meldi wrote:
You're right, the intent isn't "lower prices." The intent is always predictability. You don't introduce arbitrary rules into a market because that increases the unpredictability of the market, which causes problems in the market. Your rule only makes the market more unpredictable, and that is a horrible thing.


Talking about arbitrary. While predictability maybe a factor, selling at the highest cost and buying at the lowest is the overall intent. My rule would result in more people selling at the listed price, which is known to everyone. That is the opposite of unpredictable. Once again, this upsets you because it increases competition. You know that there are a lot of lazy people who bid the listed price and you will now have to compete with them. You're only proving my point. Thank you!

Edited, Sep 6th 2013 2:00pm by Almalieque
#18 Sep 06 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:

You're confusing my lack of greed


BS

Almalieque wrote:

and desire for a more fair and balanced AH


By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good. It is an affectation, indeed, not very common among merchants, and very few words need be employed in dissuading them from it. - Adam Smith

That pretty much sums up my sentiment of your so-called improvement to the AH. You claim to not be greedy, but your whole idea stems from the fact that you don't think the market as it is gives you as much profit on your goods as it should, so it should be manipulated in such a way to become more profitable for you.

Almalieque wrote:

Of course my proposition adds competition, that's exactly why you don't like it. You no longer have the "guaranteed sell" and have to compete with the people who sell their stuff at the listed price. It shifts some of the probability of a sell from you to your competitors, which by definition is COMPETITION. It doesn't prevent you from getting any sells, but evens out the probability.


No it doesn't. It does not add competition. It just moves competition from one place to another. You know what adds competition? Introducing another seller into the market. Buying middle goods out so other sellers have to pay higher costs for those goods and thus want to charge more for their final products. The precise reason I like the FFXI AH is because it is completely unregulated and stable. Sure we had inflation during certain points in time, but those inflationary periods are completely due to issues of money supply and not due to lack of regulation on the AH. In the great inflation of 2004-2005, once the exploits and RMT were dealt with, prices stabilized within a matter of about a month. I have no problem with competition.

Almalieque wrote:

This is evident that I understand how to play the market better than you. You don't think people know about your -99 gil, -9 gil and -1 gil tiers?


No it doesn't, and more to the point just because I used my tactic for selling items for < 1000 gil AS AN EXAMPLE (it may not reflect my actual process) does not mean that that is my exact tactic for selling more expensive items.

You bring up a good point though. The process of bidding in increments is probably a major result of the 3rd party app that will auto-increment bids for an item (don't want to name it for forum rules), and truthfully that is probably what you have an issue with. Before said bot became widely used, it was much easier to make a profit, because you didn't have to worry about it auto-incrementing incredibly small amounts over and over again until it found the exact price you listed at. When I am bidding on an item, I follow more or less the same procedure that you do. The bot does too, but it has infinite patience, so it has no problem going from 300k to 400k in 1000 gil increments or some such nonsense.

Almalieque wrote:

but this AH is not in the least bit realistic to economics, especially given the fact that if you're "poor", you can just buy gil. Furthermore, you don't have to pay rent, buy food, etc., so the overall concept of the value of gil is not the same as a real currency. As a result, people behave differently.


This is what I am talking about. You are so completely wrong in this one statement that it is just rediculous. The FFXI is one of the most realistic virtual economies out there. You do buy food (red curry buns anyone....). You do have rent in the form of entry fees for dynamis (granted, its become housing project inexpensive in recent years), salvage, limbus, etc.... You have currency exchange where people spend real money at a predetermined exchange rate, regardless of how you feel about gil buyers/sellers it exists. And you have a virtually free market auction house that is incredibly stable and "poor" friendly in that you can start out with nothing and amass vast wealth if you are observant and smart about it.

Almalieque wrote:


Meldi wrote:
You're right, the intent isn't "lower prices." The intent is always predictability. You don't introduce arbitrary rules into a market because that increases the unpredictability of the market, which causes problems in the market. Your rule only makes the market more unpredictable, and that is a horrible thing.


Talking about arbitrary. While predictability maybe a factor, selling at the highest cost and buying at the lowest is the overall intent. My rule would result in more people selling at the listed price, which is known to everyone. That is the opposite of unpredictable. Once again, this upsets you because it increases competition. You know that there are a lot of lazy people who bid the listed price and you will now have to compete with them. You're only proving my point. Thank you!


The irony is that you don't seem to see the impossibility of selling at the highest cost and buying at the lowest. If sellers are getting the highest price for the items that they are selling, then the buy cannot possibly get it at the lowest price and vice versa.
#19 Sep 06 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
That pretty much sums up my sentiment of your so-called improvement to the AH. You claim to not be greedy, but your whole idea stems from the fact that you don't think the market as it is gives you as much profit on your goods as it should, so it should be manipulated in such a way to become more profitable for you.


Not at all. I get my stuff sold. As I stated, I play the market better than you. As long as I'm constantly selling items, I easily make up the percentage cut that I sell my stuff at. The issue isn't about how much gil that I'm making. The issue is the current way that the AH is set up is stupid. I care more about the fact that people have to constantly resell their items more than the actual money lost by undercutting. My proposition will reduce the probability of a seller having to resell their item. That is completely independent on the amount of gil earned.

Meldi wrote:
No it doesn't. It does not add competition. It just moves competition from one place to another. You know what adds competition? Introducing another seller into the market. Buying middle goods out so other sellers have to pay higher costs for those goods and thus want to charge more for their final products. The precise reason I like the FFXI AH is because it is completely unregulated and stable. Sure we had inflation during certain points in time, but those inflationary periods are completely due to issues of money supply and not due to lack of regulation on the AH. In the great inflation of 2004-2005, once the exploits and RMT were dealt with, prices stabilized within a matter of about a month. I have no problem with competition.


It is 100% competition and that's why you don't like it. It doesn't simply shift the competition to one side, it evens it out. Even if it did that, why would you complain? That's exactly how it is now! So, you obviously see the problem, but don't care because it's in your favor.

There are primarily four different groups that deal with AH. You have the sellers who list at or around the listing price, sellers who sell at an undercut price, buyers who bid at or around the listing price and buyers who bid at an undercut price.

Currently, the sellers who list at an undercut price are more likely to win BOTH types of buyers. With my proposition, the sellers who list at an undercut price will more than likely win the buyers who bid at an undercut price. Likewise, the sellers who list at or around listing price will primarily win the buyers who bid at or around the list price. If you want to win more customers, then you have to adjust your prices accordingly. It's no longer a freebie. THAT IS COMPETITION. Just simply adding another seller does not create competition, especially when the result is primarily one way. Someone's taco stand isn't considered competition with a high class sit in restaurant.

You said that you don't have a problem with competition, then give me a scenario, where my proposition causes chaos, explain to me the problem and how the current system counters it.


Meldi wrote:
No it doesn't, and more to the point just because I used my tactic for selling items for < 1000 gil AS AN EXAMPLE (it may not reflect my actual process) does not mean that that is my exact tactic for selling more expensive items.

You bring up a good point though. The process of bidding in increments is probably a major result of the 3rd party app that will auto-increment bids for an item (don't want to name it for forum rules), and truthfully that is probably what you have an issue with. Before said bot became widely used, it was much easier to make a profit, because you didn't have to worry about it auto-incrementing incredibly small amounts over and over again until it found the exact price you listed at. When I am bidding on an item, I follow more or less the same procedure that you do. The bot does too, but it has infinite patience, so it has no problem going from 300k to 400k in 1000 gil increments or some such nonsense.


I realize that was just an example for <1000 gil, but the concept should remain the same. I would still sell my item at a much more random number. Any increment close to a number ending in zero is well known. With that being said, I never had an issue with said bot. My stuff always sell at nice round numbers. Further proof that it's not about greed.

Meldi wrote:
This is what I am talking about. You are so completely wrong in this one statement that it is just rediculous. The FFXI is one of the most realistic virtual economies out there. You do buy food (red curry buns anyone....). You do have rent in the form of entry fees for dynamis (granted, its become housing project inexpensive in recent years), salvage, limbus, etc....


You do realize that none of that is necessary for survival? You have to be joking.. Food? Are you serious right now? In game food does not posses the same value as real life food. I sincerely feel sorry for you if you feel otherwise. Your character doesn't forever die if you don't feed it or become hospitalized. Furthermore, I've never done Salvage. I did Limbus once and I never paid for a Dynamis entry. I would argue, pre update, most people did not pay for Dynamis.

Meldi wrote:
You have currency exchange where people spend real money at a predetermined exchange rate, regardless of how you feel about gil buyers/sellers it exists. And you have a virtually free market auction house that is incredibly stable and "poor" friendly in that you can start out with nothing and amass vast wealth if you are observant and smart about it.


I'm not sure what you're trying to reference here, but between this and the previous statement, it appears that you're trolling. I took you seriously up until this point. I'll admit, you got me, but I'll continue to play along.

Meldi wrote:
The irony is that you don't seem to see the impossibility of selling at the highest cost and buying at the lowest. If sellers are getting the highest price for the items that they are selling, then the buy cannot possibly get it at the lowest price and vice versa.


Says the person who claims to understand Economics.

Almalieque wrote:
The intent shouldn't be "lower prices", but it should be a cross between the highest selling cost and the lowest buying cost.


Let me break this down for you.

If you have an item for sell, there's practically no ceiling limit that you wouldn't sell the item for, but you do have a floor limit. As a buyer, there's practically no floor limit that you wouldn't buy the item for, but you have ceiling limit. The intent is for the sales to be a cross between the sellers floor limit and the buyers ceiling limit. That's Economics 101.
#20 Sep 18 2013 at 3:52 AM Rating: Default
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#21 Sep 18 2013 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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@Almalieque: You really need to take eco101 and probably some other micro economic courses to understand how brilliant the AH in FFXI is. The AH works a lot like trading in a very competitive market (e.g. day trading) rather than an actual AH (e.g. ebay).

Imagine a case where you are selling Red Curry Buns as a vendor in a market. You put your price as 1000gil each and is selling your product well enough. Then someone saw that you are having a good business going and open his own shop selling Red Curry Buns for 900gil right next to you. You would instantly notice all your customers and now buying from the guy next to you. In fact, you won't be selling anything until that guy is sold out or closes his shop for the day. You can either drop the price to match his or go even lower. In theory, both of you would lower the price 1 gil at a time until neither of you is willing to lower the price any more. This undercutting is the force that keep the price of a lot of things reasonable to the buyers and it doesn't matter if it's a fast selling item or a slow selling item.

If your AH method was used then there is a lesser force to lower price of moderately selling items. Re-visiting the example of RCB. There is a lesser incentive to undercut the 1000gil price point because as long as people are bidding at 1000gil, the one posting it 1st will sell it. It doesn't really matter if you are selling for 1g or 900g or 999g, you can only sell your product when either the guy before you run out of stuff or people start bidding lower than his price. This is bad for the economy as it takes a lot of time for items to adjust to new market values (as supply increases).
#22 Sep 22 2013 at 3:42 AM Rating: Default
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oddwaffle wrote:
@Almalieque: You really need to take eco101 and probably some other micro economic courses to understand how brilliant the AH in FFXI is. The AH works a lot like trading in a very competitive market (e.g. day trading) rather than an actual AH (e.g. ebay).


Common sense proves that this AH is flawed.

oddwaffle wrote:
Imagine a case where you are selling Red Curry Buns as a vendor in a market. You put your price as 1000gil each and is selling your product well enough. Then someone saw that you are having a good business going and open his own shop selling Red Curry Buns for 900gil right next to you. You would instantly notice all your customers and now buying from the guy next to you. In fact, you won't be selling anything until that guy is sold out or closes his shop for the day. You can either drop the price to match his or go even lower. In theory, both of you would lower the price 1 gil at a time until neither of you is willing to lower the price any more. This undercutting is the force that keep the price of a lot of things reasonable to the buyers and it doesn't matter if it's a fast selling item or a slow selling item.


Given that scenario, would a person go the 900 gil vender and give him 1000 gil? Exactly my point.

If you truly understood my proposition, you would realize that I'm not against undercutting. I'm against paying full prices for undercut prices. Given your scenario, if a person is willing to pay 1000 gil, they will go to the 1000 gil vender, not the 900 vender.

oddwaffle wrote:
If your AH method was used then there is a lesser force to lower price of moderately selling items. Re-visiting the example of RCB. There is a lesser incentive to undercut the 1000gil price point because as long as people are bidding at 1000gil, the one posting it 1st will sell it. It doesn't really matter if you are selling for 1g or 900g or 999g, you can only sell your product when either the guy before you run out of stuff or people start bidding lower than his price. This is bad for the economy as it takes a lot of time for items to adjust to new market values (as supply increases).


How is that any better than now? Now, people have their stuff sent back and not sold until others are no longer selling. Even if you undercut the going price, people will continue to sell and the more people who sell, the less they will set their prices. The result is you having to resell your item.

No matter what you're selling your items at, there will always be a mixture of people who either bid at the going rate and people who bid the undercut rates. By implementing my proposition you increase competition, because the sells are no longer automatically going to the under cutters anymore. Now you have to weigh your options.

This belief that moderate items wont sell is hogwash as long as there exist people like me who bid below the going rate.
#23 Sep 23 2013 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:

Common sense proves that this AH is flawed


That is your opinion
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#24 Sep 23 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

Common sense proves that this AH is flawed


That is your opinion


Well, the assumption is that the ideal scenario is to be balanced. If that is the assumption, then it isn't an opinion, but a fact. If that isn't the assumption, then you're only bolstering my point that the AH isn't balanced, at which point, my belief of it being flawed would be an opinion.
#25 Sep 24 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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@almalieque: Anyone who studies statistics knows that common sense is often wrong when it comes to numbers. That's why you have statistics to get it right. A perfect example would be to show you 3 cards facing down, a Jack and 2 Aces. I ask you to choose a card that you think is the Jack. Then I reveal an Ace on the remaining 2 cards and ask if you wish to change your choice. Common sense tells you it doesn't matter as it's like 50-50. Statistics say that you should always change.

In a fair market, prices get adjust quickly. If there are more supply, the price will be lower. In reality, it takes a while for every seller of the same product to adjust to the new price. The longer it takes for them to do so, the worse it is for the market (really need econ101 to explain why it is bad). The current AH method forces the sellers to adjust their prices when their goods aren't selling fast enough. Your AH method reduce the speed of price adjustments and encourages monopoly power (again, get econ101 to understand why).

For example, if you only have 1 seller selling RCB and he can sell 7 RCB every 2 days for 1000gil each. A new seller wants to join the market, what can he do? Well, the only thing the new seller can do is to post lower than 1000g and sell his goods. In the current AH system, the new seller goods get sold 1st and forces the old seller to lower his prices. In your system, the old seller can keep posting at 1000g and get his goods sold as people don't spend a lot of time checking for 900g RCB. The new seller will realize that he has no reason to put any lower than 1000g so he will keep that price and just wait in line for his goods to sell. The net effect is bad for the economy as the price doesn't go down quick enough with increase in supply.
#26 Sep 24 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Very well said Oddwaffle. Thank you
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