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#52 Jun 27 2013 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
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FUJILIVES wrote:
Janeash wrote:
RaiseIII wrote:
YOU don't have to be a robot,YOU don't have to level the job that everyone else wants, YOU don't have to waste your time outside of RL.

YOU could always, LEAD a party and come on any job YOU please?


SO ok I like playing BST. I bring a ton of other BST with me and then we win? :D


You may laugh, but this is actually a sound strategy. Youtube presents:



Yeah I remember monsters inc! They made bst look very cool in the day.
It was that kind of thing which made me come up with my last post but I was thinking more about trying it for delve.
Although if you need to do a lot of damage then unless they come up with a pet that can do as much as delive weapons, it might not be worth it.
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#53 Jun 27 2013 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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Oh how times have changed. I remember back in the day Alla would have jumped all over this thread, cheering on and agreeing with the OP's purpose, stating every job had a purpose and could work, etc. etc. Kinda funny to see the OP marked down to default and the initial responses countering him.

I am somewhat split, though I think I overall agree with the OP. The perception of jobs are what is controlling the game right now, not the actual difference in power. My THF, yes, a THF, parses better than the delve-geared sam in my LS in salvage events, and I'm still mainhanding a 95 mandau and I'm dualboxing (he isn't) the healer for the group. But samurai is considered a beast of a DD in the game and THF isn't even allowed in the DD party to get buffs based on the public perception of the job.

What's interesting is that WoW already went through this phase AND conquered it, in the "bring the player, not the class" mentality of WotLK, only their 3rd expansion. They made sure that all classes/specs were within a few % of each other and each had a somewhat unique buff, making it so you wanted to do bring one good player of each class, essentially, and bringing another spec of the same class could also work.

Now I have full belief that there are significant damage differences between some classes. But I also think that aside from a few players at the top of specific ones, that a "bring the player, not the job" is actually the smart move in FFXI. I bet you my THF, as unfinished as it is (and boy is it unfinished) could run with all but the best sam/drk/mnk's, etc. since I'm not too far behind my delve mnk LS mate who is better geared than I, and again, I'm not using two delve-level weapons. The problem FFXI has is that almost every single DD is just that, a DD. They don't bring much else special to the case, aside from maybe a DRK stun or a THF feint (which oddly both go sorely missed) and so the top LS's find a strategy that works and EVERYBODY SIMPLY MIMICS THEM.

It's incredibly disheartening and a large part of why I am once again quitting the game, FFXIV is greatly aiding this thought process as my usual one while I played FFXI was "I'll just keep going until I prove them all wrong!" As an example the other night a guy I had run many a plasm farm with and kinda sorta knew back in the day (I was working on my Mandau, he was a RDM finishing Excalibur lol) and he was shouting for a veteran DD. I /tell'd him that I'd join, he asked what job, I said THF. He goes "Oh I have a thf spot open!" I responded saying "I want a DD spot, with actually getting buffs and heals" and just said ok...and never invited me. I can perform the DD role as well, if not better than, many a random DD, but because of the current stigma around certain jobs, that's not even a possibility. It's sad.
#54 Jun 28 2013 at 12:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh how times have changed. I remember back in the day Alla would have jumped all over this thread, cheering on and agreeing with the OP's purpose, stating every job had a purpose and could work, etc. etc. Kinda funny to see the OP marked down to default and the initial responses countering him.


I remember seeing your posts for years, so I know you've been around a while, but I think your glasses are just a little rosier than mine. I know she's kind of an extreme example, but it doesn't take looking any further than Mellowy to see that the community (and, I believe, the game) has always forced us to stick to a only a few strategies for completing content.
#55 Jun 28 2013 at 12:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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busakiller wrote:
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Oh how times have changed. I remember back in the day Alla would have jumped all over this thread, cheering on and agreeing with the OP's purpose, stating every job had a purpose and could work, etc. etc. Kinda funny to see the OP marked down to default and the initial responses countering him.


I remember seeing your posts for years, so I know you've been around a while, but I think your glasses are just a little rosier than mine. I know she's kind of an extreme example, but it doesn't take looking any further than Mellowy to see that the community (and, I believe, the game) has always forced us to stick to a only a few strategies for completing content.


Oh it always has. But back in the day it was the elitist jerks at BG saying that was the case and idealist Alla proclaiming that couldn't be the case. I was almost always on the side of BG at the time. These days though I actually think a lot of jobs are pretty strong. I'm still unsure about things like SMN (I hear they are AMAZING for big boss fights but have not seen a single one in the game since the post-75 days, seriously). DRG isn't laughable like it used to be (and true fact: It never was laughable, it was always fairly strong and competitive to anyone taking it seriously) DRK I've mostly seen keeping up with MNK and beating SAM handily, nin always impressed me in aby groups, but haven't seen a single DD one in SoA, new PUP alternator is supposed to be pretty sick, but I've never gotten a fair judge of that job as I have always been too cheap to consider leveling it and never been friends with a serious pup, etc. I think of all times now is when all the jobs actually are pretty capable. And very much "bring the player, not the job" should be the rule we play by. Sadly, it is not.
#56 Jun 28 2013 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
SMN's strength is that their pets, while relatively weak, can be summoned infinitely without timers beyond the recast because they are spells. Other pets have to be resummoned with JAs that have longer timers. (Remember when a dragoon's 2 hour was Call Wyvern?) They are disposable pets, and can easily be adjusted to suit the boss in question. Oh, and the SMN can stay safely out of range unless they're using blood pacts, so as long as there is a tank or other summons tanking, the summoners ought to be safe.

It's a sound strategy for some boss fights, but a SMN's DoT is relatively low compared to a BST pet or a DD melee, and the current Delve bosses have half a million HP and gimmicks that make them take almost no damage until you figure out the trick. With only 20 minutes to kill them outside of fracture, not even a dozen summoners are enough to take them down alone.

SMN is king of short term zerg fights, though. Even after the perfect defense nerf.
#57 Jun 28 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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If the WHMs in your group are well geared and have 'seniority' you may find there just isn't room for another one. BST and SMN are outclassed in Delve (which is about all anyone is interested in anymore). If your WHM is solidly geared, has SCH and RDM subjobs and you have a decent amount of experience on it and people don't constantly drop dead then you may be in the wrong group. If you could use some help with your gear etc, I'm sure peeps in the WHM forum would be happy to help.
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#58REDACTED, Posted: Jun 28 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) abbysea has killed actual job knowledge ask any new players to link a skillchain or magic burst and you will get ??? in return.
#59 Jun 28 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Bards and CORs are the main sleepers in plasm farms. Bard has two AOE sleep spells on short timers and a single bard can handle a large crowd of mobs pretty easily. That said, smart plasm runs have more than just one bard.
#60 Jun 28 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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riskyjackel wrote:
abbysea has killed actual job knowledge ask any new players to link a skillchain or magic burst and you will get ??? in return.
if you are just starting ffxi I think you should earn it the old way to know your base job meaning join parties that actually fight mobs your level not get some WAR to cleave that is why the expansion is so offset and only wants remd weapon users cause noone has pride in the job anymore and waists all of our time.

I was just in a plasm farm I originally came as SAM with masamune and saw we had only 1 sleepga and a whm that was gimp at best so I switched to SMN diabolos for refresh and nightmare ftw everyone in party complained when I suggested it until I was in the fight then it was great job riskyjackel awesome etc........ it just goes to show theres alot of job players out there that know there jobs it doesnt mean I'd ever get a rem weapon for my SMN that I'll never use.


Actual job knowledge changes in any given situation though. What you do in group EXP (6 man parties) has a minimal impact on ones ability to function at said job in bigger group activities, and most endgame events. What killed job knowledge in parties was the move to TP burn styles, which SE supported. Since ToAU Skillchains and magic bursts have been largely irrelevant because the damage value is greater in the vast majority of cases using WS at 100% TP instead of waiting for a partner and going 4-5 hits later (wasted TP).

The game has evolved away from certain things, and in most cases they no longer apply. Stuff you learn in 6 man groups is largely irrelevant in the end game. For example, SMN in exp parties was a pseudo WHM. But in Endgame content it wasn't. The only way you actually learned endgame SMN was by being and endgame SMN. In EXP groups you could go balls out in most cases on pretty much any DD job, except maybe DRK. In Endgame you need to toe the line because if you pull hate there is a high probability you are going to die on most DD jobs. But this isn't something you learn in EXP, this is something you need to learn as an Endgame DD. As a healer in EXP you often had periods where you could rest your MP real quick. Endgame healing requires a strong ability to conserve MP, and you only learn this by being an endgame healer.

Knowledge from EXP Groups is not parallel to knowledge at endgame. They are entirely different, and they both draw on vastly different skill sets. Furthermore every encounter is different in Endgame, and seldom are the same encounters repeated the same. Unlike EXP where you spent 3 months fighting, Crabs/Lizards/Crawlers/Beetles/Spiders/Colibri Congrats you gained knowledge on how to EXP on a minimal amount of mob types, all of which are chosen because they lack any real threatening moves.

The knowledge gap however draws from the monkey see monkey do community. People see others shouting for top geared stuff, they don't know why, and assume it must be the minimum requirement. Meanwhile most of the content that is relevant can be done with decently geared (not optimally) people that understand that specific engagement in that specific event, and the people calling for optimal are the players who are looking for maximum speed (so they can do other stuff), not minimum required.

TLDR

EXP Group knowledge seldom translates to endgame knowledge.


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#61 Jun 28 2013 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Bards and CORs are the main sleepers in plasm farms. Bard has two AOE sleep spells on short timers and a single bard can handle a large crowd of mobs pretty easily. That said, smart plasm runs have more than just one bard.

I think the smart is what might be missing. I have a feeling that some groups will keep dropping support roles in favor of more DD since those brds and whm don't put up big damage numbers.
#62 Jun 28 2013 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Recently heard from a White Mage in Delve:

Sacrifice? What's that?
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#63 Jun 28 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Bards and CORs are the main sleepers in plasm farms. Bard has two AOE sleep spells on short timers and a single bard can handle a large crowd of mobs pretty easily. That said, smart plasm runs have more than just one bard.


yeah WTF... who is using sleepga in plasm farming? Horde Lullaby 1/2 and Foe Lullaby 1/2 are enough for almost anything. I can easily handle crowd control in even the most hectic situations (see: morimar rieves with people who don't know wtf to do and don't have demolishing)
#64 Jun 28 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Recently heard from a White Mage in Delve:

Sacrifice? What's that?
I was expecting it to be a screenshot of the event. :(
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Horst needs a 1 minute, 15 foot doom aura. Get in, get out, or @#%^ing die.
Calmus wrote:
...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
#65 Jun 28 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Bards and CORs are the main sleepers in plasm farms. Bard has two AOE sleep spells on short timers and a single bard can handle a large crowd of mobs pretty easily. That said, smart plasm runs have more than just one bard.


yeah WTF... who is using sleepga in plasm farming? Horde Lullaby 1/2 and Foe Lullaby 1/2 are enough for almost anything. I can easily handle crowd control in even the most hectic situations (see: morimar rieves with people who don't know wtf to do and don't have demolishing)


Ya that is kind of odd, its been pretty much established since ToAU that BRD is pretty much the best sleeper. Not saying Sleepga doesn't also work, but it comes down to requirement. Now I could see RDM/BLM being used in a sleepga position but it would only have one tier. But using SMN to fill in a precieved hole is a good decision, and shows awareness to the situation.
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