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#1 Jun 25 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Default
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It looks like in order to play FFXI you have to be a robot and follow the same goals everyone else follows. You need to have this gear, you need these levels at 99, etc. Im sorry but I'm not going to level all jobs to 99, nor do I have time. To be told by LS mates I'm useless or my job isn't used in a plasm run just angers me. I have a life OUTSIDE of this game and I dont have the time to be leveling jobs YOU want ME to level. Im sure most people didnt level jobs because they were told to, probably because they WANT to and they want to go 100% in this game. Well I'm a PAYING PLAYER, SE never said I have to level all these jobs in order to enjoy my game. If I want to be a WHM then I shouldnt be turned down, same goes with being a BST, or a SMN. All these jobs have some use to them, and to not be allowed to join a certain run in a game because I dont have a "useful" job level pisses me off..

Thoughts? Opinions?
#2 Jun 25 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Anyone who's been here long enough has leveled a job or two and used it to get gear for other jobs. No one expects you to level all 22 jobs to 99. But you could level one sought after job.
#3 Jun 25 2013 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
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I don't really have time to do that, and by the time I do everyone else will be on to new and better things. The only thing I was considering leveling was my subjobs because theyre already halfway to 99 but even thats still a load on me. I am a full time college student with a job so the time I invest in this game that I oddly am in love with I want to use for what Im good at
#4 Jun 25 2013 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well the thing is other people are also paying players. You're welcome to do whatever content you want on whatever job you want - but you can't force other people to do it with you. I wish SE would balance content and jobs better to make all jobs useful, but until they do, you're stuck either soloing, playing with likeminded friends, or playing a job that strangers/less close friends need for content.

I love BST and BLU for example... but I have come to accept that no one will almost ever want me on BST, and people will only want me on BLU for niche things. That is just the way it goes sometimes. Until delve came out no one almost ever wanted my BRD either. Now it is almost an auto-invite. That's the way things go.

You don't need to level any other jobs - but you can't expect other people to invite you on those jobs to events where they aren't considered optimal. If you don't want to level other jobs, then make friends with people who aren't so concerned about being optimal and make it work. Or, solo whatever you want. Or, start a shout group and hope people don't disband when they see what you're taking to said event.

Other people also don't have a lot of time (I work fulltime to more than fulltime, have a girlfriend, like playing other videogames besides XI and I have other hobbies such as reading books, writing and making art for example) - so that is why they want to use optimal or close to optimal strategies. Cause just like you don't feel like you have the time to level another job, they don't feel like they have the time to do multiple NNI only getting to floor 60, or plasm farming parties only getting 3K per 45 minutes, or NM battles that fail

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 11:47am by Olorinus
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#5 Jun 25 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I understand but why dont people like jobs like SMN or BST or WHM (apparently)? The first two do great damage, SMN also heals buffs and everything else. How is that job NOT useful? Dont get me started with WHM
#6 Jun 25 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know who you think doesn't like WHM except maybe in something like NNI where SCH is preferred. I can't think of any other event that doesn't welcome whm, they may exist but I know WHM is wanted in abyssea, delve, voidwatch for sure.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 11:51am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#7 Jun 25 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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There will be sometimes where people dont want a certain job for something... like EVER. Why not just give it a shot? Or just let them in? Its only one job, its not like theyre sitting there with their thumb up their ass not doing a single thing. And they have been in your LS for a very long time now.
#8 Jun 25 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Your "ranting" can be replied to with this old adage:

"It may be your $12.95 but it's our $64.75 and we want you to stop wasting everyone's time and dragging us down."

Take your entitlement complex and go away. If you can't be bothered to pull up your big boy pants and actually contribute to the group in a meaningful way then don't cry when you aren't invited.

By the way? Trying to play the "life card"? Yeah, all it does is show how immature you are.
#9 Jun 25 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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One reason is because SE has simply failed at job balance for high-level content. Some jobs are used a lot, some are used occasionally, some are one-ability wonders, and some just have no place anywhere. Why bring Job X when Job Y is just flat out better in every way? Unlike other games, content doesn't allow for all forms of damage, tanking, and healing to come out effectively even so lots and lots of jobs are just left out in the cold and SE can't/won't do much about it.
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#10 Jun 25 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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OP, there is a world of content outside of Delve that might be better suited for your playstyle. 11 years of content are available for you to do. Why skip it? And why are you trying to do Delve? The drops for WHM and SMN are pretty mediocre. Plasm farming isn't fun, so you're not missing out on anything there.
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#11 Jun 25 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bringing along "X job" just for fun is what linkshells do. Pickup groups will never do that because there's this other guy that's on a better job and has better gear and he answered at the same time you did for the shout. Simple as that.

Even though I have 20 out of the 22 jobs capped, I only play three with any regularity. Two are used in different types of group content, and one is used almost entirely for solo.

No one expects you to have more than 2-3 jobs at max gear. There simply isn't enough room in our inventories for it.

I always suggest you level at least two jobs and gear them well: One job for yourself, and one job for everyone else. Use the job that everyone else wants to get gear for the job you really want to play. (And if that job is well geared and has a good reputation from lesser content, you'd be surprised at who lets you in. You ever see a PUP destroy things in NNI? You ever see a BLU tear some Delve mobs to pieces? I have. I also know those players have a COR and a WHM they used to gear those two jobs, and are willing to come on those jobs in big group content if required.)
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#12 Jun 25 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Think of it like this...

You have paid the entrance fee to Disneyland, along with a whole bunch of other people. You are free to ride It's a Small World all you want, but most people are lining up for Space Mountain, and Splash Mountain.

But goddamn, that freakin' SONG!
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#13 Jun 25 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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Viertel wrote:
Your "ranting" can be replied to with this old adage:

"It may be your $12.95 but it's our $64.75 and we want you to stop wasting everyone's time and dragging us down."

Take your entitlement complex and go away. If you can't be bothered to pull up your big boy pants and actually contribute to the group in a meaningful way then don't cry when you aren't invited.

By the way? Trying to play the "life card"? Yeah, all it does is show how immature you are.



LOL How am I immature by saying I have a life outside of FFXI? It's not like I said people who play the game more than me have no life.

Just because I don't follow the standard everyone likes to follow doesn't mean I can't contribute to the group by saving peoples asses and dealing some damage.. because I can.

I've proven people wrong but people don't seem to like to see the truth.

You're the only person who responded negatively, so it looks like you're the immature one, and you have no life yourself.

Sit down, Mary.
#14 Jun 25 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I just pretend that delve and some of the new stuff doesn't exist. I don't need delve equipment or weapons at the moment because I'm nowhere ready for it. So go ahead you elitists. Embrace your power and subdefault this post because I will not be like you and hang your dick out of your pants to show it off. Cause that is all people who *have* to have the best do. Those people can @#%^ right off.
#15 Jun 25 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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SMN is only a mildly decent DD potentially once every 45 seconds. Most people would rather either have a real DD, or a real support; not a hybrid.

BST pets have actually fallen somewhat behind to the likes of PUP surprisingly, due to the huge power boost it has gotten with Alternator. The best contribution a BST can make in scenarios like Delve is to call out an appropriate pet to use Killer Instinct on their party (in any given zone, all the Delve mobs are actually of the same type or superfamily, allowing Killer Instinct to potentially take effect on all mobs in the fracture), which is something not all BSTs will necessarily have optimized or make use of.
#16 Jun 25 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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After rereading the OP, it seems like the correct response is to find a different linkshell, actually.

HNM shells will usually demand that you level up jobs or bring specific jobs because their goal is to burn through as much content as fast as they can and give out prizes for those who participate the most.*

Social linkshells are usually more willing to accommodate fun jobs in both serious and not so serious content. Usually.

If your linkshell is saying "we don't want your WHM in our plasm farm" then you seriously need to get a different linkshell.

* Except for those drama filled shells that have cliques and favoritism and the LS leader gives all the stuff to his in-game girlfriend who is really a guy but he hasn't figured it out yet
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#17 Jun 25 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
SMN is only a mildly decent DD potentially once every 45 seconds. Most people would rather either have a real DD, or a real support; not a hybrid.

BST pets have actually fallen somewhat behind to the likes of PUP surprisingly, due to the huge power boost it has gotten with Alternator. The best contribution a BST can make in scenarios like Delve is to call out an appropriate pet to use Killer Instinct on their party (in any given zone, all the Delve mobs are actually of the same type or superfamily, allowing Killer Instinct to potentially take effect on all mobs in the fracture), which is something not all BSTs will necessarily have optimized or make use of.


I understand what your saying but jobs like bst can always be very helpful..Any damage is better than no damage. as for SMN, the pets can damage, buff, and heal. with rage and ward you can do both of those every 45 seconds, not to mention depending on the subjob they can use those abilities too. its overall a very helpful support job. And for WHM, sometimes people rather just have a SCH, but if there isnt one around then take a WHM for christs sake, stop being so damn picky.
#18 Jun 25 2013 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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But there usually is one around. And for most people it is way more worthwhile to wait 15 mins for a sch if they need one (keep it mind sch can do stuff that whm is not at all good at/can't do at all) than to take a whm and fail

Again, it is their time and their sub... If they want Sch, and they want to wait for one over taking a whm, all the kvetching in the world won't change it.
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#19 Jun 25 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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I used to think the same way, that my SMN was just as good a DD as someone else's actual DD job. Having a parser on hand changed my mind, and then having a WAR leveled made me see the error of my ways.

That's not to say SMN has no place at all in Adoulin. It's a great job for bayld farming in reives, for example. The AOE buffs apply to everyone, even people not in your party, so the support is welcome there.
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#20 Jun 25 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I understand what your saying but jobs like bst can always be very helpful..Any damage is better than no damage.


DDs are a dime a dozen nowadays. Leaders can afford to be picky when it comes to inviting better ones.

There's a reason why most Delve shout groups inevitably need jobs like PLDs, BRDs, and CORs, not more DDs.
#21 Jun 25 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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pocketsphat wrote:

I understand what your saying but jobs like bst can always be very helpful..Any damage is better than no damage. as for SMN, the pets can damage, buff, and heal. with rage and ward you can do both of those every 45 seconds, not to mention depending on the subjob they can use those abilities too. its overall a very helpful support job. And for WHM, sometimes people rather just have a SCH, but if there isnt one around then take a WHM for christs sake, stop being so damn picky.



Here's the problem with your theory: Damage dealers are a dime a dozen. there are so freaking many of them that party leaders can shoot for the moon on gear requirements and specific jobs and STILL easily fill their alliance (outside of perhaps paladins). Yes, BST and SMN can both contribute, but to be blunt their contribution is sub optimal, and you're far more likely to get a dedicated DD or healer/support that can do a great job than someone trying to buff/heal/dd all at the same time. Yes there most likely are some players out there that could dd/heal/support to an extent that they warrant a spot in the alliance, but it's far more likely that they wouldn't... and as a leader I'm taking the safe bet, I have 16 other people who's time I don't want to waste.

Why is your linkshell unwilling to take you as whm? (I'm making an assumption based on your posts, please correct me if I'm wrong) Was your performance bad? is your gear not up to date? Favoritism in the shell? Catwho has always been pretty spot on with advice from what I've read and seen over the years. Maybe it's time for a new shell.



Edit: broke the quote thingy
Edit#2: Fynlar beat me to it... darn work distracting me mid post.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 7:31pm by saiyandon

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 7:34pm by saiyandon
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#22 Jun 25 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand but why dont people like jobs like SMN or BST or WHM (apparently)? The first two do great damage, SMN also heals buffs and everything else. How is that job NOT useful? Dont get me started with WHM


The problems with SMN and BST are that, in this higher level content (Delve), neither really offer enough to warrant their spots. A Smn's damage isn't as impressive when you consider the 45 second recast on Rage, their status ailments don't do enough to make up for the spot they're occupying, and their healing isn't up to par with what needs covered.

Beastmaster is in a similar position as far as not being a very great DD. Right now Jug pets in there just aren't going to have the offensive or defensive power to stand up to a lot of these NMs, and a Beastmaster is only going to be a mediocre DD at best. However, there are some current strategies for Muyingwa (the Bztavian Delve boss of Ceizak) that do involve bringing a Beastmaster and the Lizard jug pet for Infrasonics, since it apparently is a 25% evasion down effect on it that lands at least somewhat reliably.

I've never seen anyone have any issues when it comes to White Mages. If anything, that's probably one of the most sought after jobs when it comes to anything Delve related.
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#23 Jun 25 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing to point out is that you don't have to have specific gear to do anything in this game. It helps, sure. I've noticed a considerable damage increase on THF since I acquired a Thaumas coat and Aphotic Kukri.

However, because the gear in question that people say you "have" to have will often marginally and sometimes dramatically improve your performance, you should want to get it. You should seriously weigh in when folks are saying you "have" to have a piece of gear. No, you don't have to have it to play the job. But you should want to have it because you'll play the job so much better when you do have it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to join another Delve shout on bard so I can get more points toward the great axe I really really want for my WAR. Smiley: nod
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#24 Jun 25 2013 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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In case it is not obvious at this point this may not be the game for you. You seem to have a casual attitude. This game has been around a long time and most of the people still playing are perfectionists.

In my experience story content is casual friendly. You and your casual friends can clear it and a perfectionist may party with you even if they've done the mission before. Grinding, on the other hand, is not casual friendly. That pursuit is to get the most currency units per hour so only top achievers are going to be included.

The problem is that most of the content released in the last few years has been grind, not story. So some of the casual players have drifted away rather than fight monster X 100 times to get item Y. Sure, there is still the old content available and you can solo that if you'd like but don't expect to play with other people.
#25 Jun 26 2013 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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pocketsphat wrote:
It looks like in order to play FFXI you have to be a robot and follow the same goals everyone else follows. You need to have this gear, you need these levels at 99, etc. Im sorry but I'm not going to level all jobs to 99, nor do I have time. To be told by LS mates I'm useless or my job isn't used in a plasm run just angers me. I have a life OUTSIDE of this game and I dont have the time to be leveling jobs YOU want ME to level. Im sure most people didnt level jobs because they were told to, probably because they WANT to and they want to go 100% in this game. Well I'm a PAYING PLAYER, SE never said I have to level all these jobs in order to enjoy my game. If I want to be a WHM then I shouldnt be turned down, same goes with being a BST, or a SMN. All these jobs have some use to them, and to not be allowed to join a certain run in a game because I dont have a "useful" job level pisses me off..

Thoughts? Opinions?


You don't need people.

I'm a loner who have been playing since 2003 and I have almost done everything exclusively alone, i.e. randomly showing up at a NM and asking to join a party. To be fair, I'm a career RDM, so there was a time when I was highly demanded. On the same token, I got tired of being invited to be the "main healer" or "refresh bot", so I leveled WHM. At the time, WHM was not wanted and now it's reversed. Everyone wants WHM and no one (until recently) wants RDM.

It's your choice. Either play how you want or succumb to the crowd. You have plenty of time to level a job. If you have time to post on this website, then you have time to level jobs. Now, rather or not your jobs are "the best", is another story, but you can't say that you don't have time to level a desired job. People with full time jobs, kids, going to school have leveled more than one job. There are a couple of us who went to war and back on more than one occasion, with more than one leveled job. I highly doubt that your life is so restrictive, that you can't level a desired job.

Not wanting to level a job != not having the time to do so.

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#26 Jun 26 2013 at 3:28 AM Rating: Good
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Don't mind me, I'm just meleeing with my RDM in salvage.
#27Almalieque, Posted: Jun 26 2013 at 3:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I meleed my way to 75 as a RDM. It can be done, especially if you start your own parties.
#28 Jun 26 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Good
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With RDM at 99 you get +25 STR and +20% double attack (if your enhancing is 500), mix it up with a good weapon and many different gear set ups and you could melee with no problem in salvage. With Requiescat and death blossom you could even go with a mage subjob. Not that RDM will substitute a DD in any way, but the added damage will help out.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 6:25am by Solonuke
#29 Jun 26 2013 at 5:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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YOU don't have to be a robot,YOU don't have to level the job that everyone else wants, YOU don't have to waste your time outside of RL.

YOU could always, LEAD a party and come on any job YOU please?
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#30 Jun 26 2013 at 5:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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RaiseIII wrote:
YOU don't have to be a robot,YOU don't have to level the job that everyone else wants, YOU don't have to waste your time outside of RL.

YOU could always, LEAD a party and come on any job YOU please?


SO ok I like playing BST. I bring a ton of other BST with me and then we win? :D
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#31 Jun 26 2013 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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pocketsphat wrote:
It looks like in order to play FFXI you have to be a robot and follow the same goals everyone else follows. You need to have this gear, you need these levels at 99, etc. Im sorry but I'm not going to level all jobs to 99, nor do I have time. To be told by LS mates I'm useless or my job isn't used in a plasm run just angers me. I have a life OUTSIDE of this game and I dont have the time to be leveling jobs YOU want ME to level. Im sure most people didnt level jobs because they were told to, probably because they WANT to and they want to go 100% in this game. Well I'm a PAYING PLAYER, SE never said I have to level all these jobs in order to enjoy my game. If I want to be a WHM then I shouldnt be turned down, same goes with being a BST, or a SMN. All these jobs have some use to them, and to not be allowed to join a certain run in a game because I dont have a "useful" job level pisses me off..

Thoughts? Opinions?



As someone who played this game for many many years I am upset this is how you feel. I understand it is a rant, but as someone who butt heads with the norm for his entire playing career it is what you make of it. Early in my career I did the conforming thing, then realized I actually didn't enjoy playing how everyone else wanted me to play. For the next 5-6 years I played solely how I wanted to play, and if it meant that I would have to accomplish things alone or in small like minded groups so be it.

My adventures took me from Windurst, to Bastok, through the Sky and the Sea. Ive climbed the highest mountaints, crossed the smoothest plains, trudged through the densest jungles and explored the bottomless caves all across the land. Ive been from a forgotten Empire to one in dire need, I have been a hero across time, and through parallel universes, preventing catastrophic calamities from befalling the denizens of Vana Diel.

I never had the best gear, but I can tell you that there is way more to this game than gearing up. Unfortunate that you haven't had the opportunity to enjoy it yet. There is plenty of content for solo/low man stuff that allows for a large variety of job combinations and play styles. However if you want to attain the best gear, you need to conform to playing in an acceptable proven way.

And I will return one day to continue on my path, I am an adventurer of Vanadiel, and when the call for a hero arises, little Mageoholic will be on his way to the scene, alone, or with friends.

(and that call for adventure will be when Steam sells SOA for like 10 bucks cuz I aint paying 20 or w/e they want atm.)
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#32 Jun 26 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Also my obligatory youtube post for threads like this.

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#33 Jun 26 2013 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Janeash wrote:
RaiseIII wrote:
YOU don't have to be a robot,YOU don't have to level the job that everyone else wants, YOU don't have to waste your time outside of RL.

YOU could always, LEAD a party and come on any job YOU please?


SO ok I like playing BST. I bring a ton of other BST with me and then we win? :D


You may laugh, but this is actually a sound strategy. Youtube presents:
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#34 Jun 26 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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pocketsphat wrote:
Any damage is better than no damage.
That's kind of the same as "my time is equal to your time" argument. On the surface it is true, but there are so many omissions that it becomes such a lie when you examine it. Any damage is better than no damage, but there hasn't been, is, and never will be a situation where there is no damage. Likewise, your time is just as valuable as my time until your time and my time are put together, at which point I expect you to put in the same effort as I am on whatever we, as a group, are trying to accomplish. If not, then you are wasting our time.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 11:49am by lolgaxe
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#35 Jun 26 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I do actually wonder how an all bst + sacrifice group would do in delve...
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#36 Jun 26 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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pocketsphat wrote:
I understand what your saying but jobs like bst can always be very helpful..Any damage is better than no damage.

This right here is the crux of your problem. You're looking at it wrong.

Alliances have finite space in them. You can only have 6 people in a party, or 18 in an alliance. When a party leader is asked to let you join, they are not debating between taking you or leaving a spot empty. They are debating between taking you or taking another player.

So it's not a question of whether some damage is better than no damage, but whether you can contribute more or less than another player would be able to.

People do tend to be a bit more flexible when content has been figured out and isn't as challenging, but when content is extremely challenging, people start getting very careful about who they take in order to ensure the best odds of victory. Can you really blame them for that? Events like Delve bosses, Legion, and so forth... they are not easy. One person not pulling their weight makes everyone else work that much harder. Why should they have to work harder to bring you, when they could invite someone else?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong or good or bad, but just try to put yourself in the party leader's shoes and you'll quickly see why things are the way they are.

That being said, you're always free to organize your own event and invite whatever jobs you want.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 10:24am by Pergatory
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#37 Jun 26 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
I do actually wonder how an all bst + sacrifice group would do in delve...


The sac can be a BST too. I've been in a few runs where a Twilight BST was the sac, even one where the same player did a couple runs on PLD and then switched to BST since he wanted to lose exp on a different job ;)

Viertel wrote:
Your "ranting" can be replied to with this old adage:

"It may be your $12.95 but it's our $64.75 and we want you to stop wasting everyone's time and dragging us down."


Or in alliance content like Delve... it's our $220.15.

pocketsphat wrote:
There will be sometimes where people dont want a certain job for something... like EVER. Why not just give it a shot? Or just let them in? Its only one job, its not like theyre sitting there with their thumb up their ass not doing a single thing. And they have been in your LS for a very long time now.


If you have WHM SMN BST and your LS won't let you join events, get a new LS. As many people have said, WHM is extremely in demand for pretty much any event. Only reason I could see not wanting a WHM is if the player is just not doing their job well (and WHM performance is more based on paying attention as opposed to being highly dependent on gear)...

If your LS is just full of other WHMs who can't go as some other job, I can't see why they wouldn't let you contribute on BST or SMN if you're doing your job decently. I CAN see how a random shout group would cherry pick the ideal DDs (strongest DD jobs with super gear), but in your own LS? Get out if they won't let you play.

One word of hope: with new pet items coming for SMN and BST, those jobs may well get more powerful very soon, to the point where people will more readily accept them as DD jobs. With Delve H2H + Alternator, PUP has certainly gotten that way now, and the new SMN/BST pet enhancement items may push those pet jobs to similar performance levels. Yeah, there are still people who refuse to invite a PUP, but there are a lot more people than ever before who accept that PUP can definitely oull its weight as a DD these days.

And like others have said, there's a big world out there and lots of stuff you can do that isn't the currently popular endgame. You can solo a ton on BST, or do a lot of lowman stuff with your WHM plus a friend or two. Have you done all of the story missions for all the expansions? Got all your Relic/Empy+2 gear? Do Colonization Reives and build up Bayld to buy gear (including more new things coming soon)?

Even if you want to get some elite gear for your BST, you should be able to get into random shout parties on WHM to work on plasm for a Delve weapon and get the one-time required NM win to buy the item.
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#38 Jun 26 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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SCH is more sustainable as a healer for plasm farming that WHM so that might be what's happening to the OP. However, with the proper support and a proper idle set you should be able to hold your own. The thread has been focused primarily on job acceptance but does the OP have acceptable gear?
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#39 Jun 26 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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pocketsphat wrote:
Thoughts? Opinions?


My thoughts and opinions are that you are either a troll/sock account here, or so completely insulated from actual game play mentality of your fellow players that it's unbelievable that you haven't not progressed out of the sandbox and past the issue of "why am I forced to play other jobs and can't play on my favorite unique snowflake job all of the time".
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#40 Jun 26 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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TheBarrister wrote:
pocketsphat wrote:
Thoughts? Opinions?


My thoughts and opinions are that you are either a troll/sock account here, or so completely insulated from actual game play mentality of your fellow players that it's unbelievable that you haven't not progressed out of the sandbox and past the issue of "why am I forced to play other jobs and can't play on my favorite unique snowflake job all of the time".



My thoughts are you are a bit of a douche. Everyone has the right to play how they want to play. OP just needs to understand that his play options are limited to what the other players find useful. In my particular case the vast majority of the FFXI community found no use for a melee RDM. I however found a niche roll in a group and was able to move forward using not so "standard" strategies. I also however didn't expect others to invite me based on that merit, but I also told others that they shouldn't blindly dismiss the variable options, because standard or optimal are not always available.

OP needs to understand that he can play how he wants, but his options are restricted to that niche roll and it minimizes his opportunity to progress gear wise, and in some cases content wise.

While I still am a RDM at heart, and will always log the most time on it, I also have BRD, BLM, WHM, DNC, PLD, SCH all at 99 and moderately geared for use with the masses, or to help other friends round out a composition. I will still melee on my RDM, and I always will, but I have accepted that not everyone will play with that, and the best advice I can offer to the OP is to accept that he can have fun, but not everyone is required to play with him, and that in some cases you can accomplish more with friends, and that includes having a variety of jobs to fill in the holes you need in your compositions.

But ya, you have a pretty narrow outlook on the game, Barrister, as a fellow player I do not share your opinion, does this mean I am detached as well?
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#41 Jun 26 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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detlef wrote:
SCH is more sustainable as a healer for plasm farming that WHM so that might be what's happening to the OP. However, with the proper support and a proper idle set you should be able to hold your own. The thread has been focused primarily on job acceptance but does the OP have acceptable gear?


As long as brds are singing refresh songs on whms they should never have trouble with MP.

God knows I can't think of more than once or twice that the whm I am in charge of has gone below 30%of their max MP, and I've never been in a situation where they have had to stop healing at any point.
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#42 Jun 26 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SCH is more sustainable as a healer for plasm farming that WHM


While I'd say that is normally true, it should be noted that SCH also has a lot less curing power and speed than WHM does, largely due to the fact that SE stoutly refuses to give out Cure 5 to any other mages. I've had several instances where I simply was not able to keep someone alive on SCH due to the fact they were taking more damage than I was literally able to heal them for (due to having to alternate Cure 4+3). Granted, this is partly the melee's fault for pulling too much aggro on too many things + probably not having a pdt set, but yeah.

WHM is a lot more dependent on their gear for their sustainability/stability than SCH is (SCH mostly gets it for "free" due to Sublimation improving as they level), but once they acquire it I find they can certainly hold their own as well.
#43Viertel, Posted: Jun 26 2013 at 4:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ....why the hell would you be using Cure V outside anyway unless someone's in SEVERE danger of dying (and chances are it won't make a difference anyway)? The small bonus from cureskin doesn't offset the complete and utter mismanagement of MP when you use Cure V over IV today due to the cures revamp. It isn't worth it. WHM's advantage now are cureskin and the ability to more easily cap cure casting time. That's about it.
#44 Jun 26 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
....why the hell would you be using Cure V outside anyway unless someone's in SEVERE danger of dying


That's kind of the point. When the best you can do is alternate a Cure 4 and Cure 3 (without cureskin, mind you), it often means that someone's in severe danger of dying. At least, that's been my experience with trying to heal on SCH in situations where they really should have had a WHM instead.

Also, my MP is rarely a concern on WHM nowadays. What gets people killed is said people either biting off more than they can chew or just simply getting 1- or 2-shotted, usually not lack of MP. WHM has come a long way since the 75 era.

Quote:
WHM's advantage now are cureskin and the ability to more easily cap cure casting time.


These are huge advantages that often go underappreciated until the career WHM ends up having to try to heal on another job.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 6:27pm by Fynlar
#45 Jun 26 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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Eh different healers serve a different purpose. I think SCH shines more as a group healer over a single target healer. They have some amazing tools that allow for party wide damage mitigation, and party wide recovery options. WHM to me seems like the defacto single target healer, with all the same single target options as SCH, with the added bonus of CureSkin, and big emergency heals of C5 and C6.

and of course RDM, the brute healer, who just spams spells back to back to back without stopping, except when they have to convert, neither excelling in group damage reduction, or single target stability.

Thats not to say these healers are not interchangeable, they can most certainly perform in any spot, you just need to structure the core group a bit differently depending on what healer is doing what, and in some cases might require additional levels of support (specifically in the case of RDM main healing, which has declined greatly since its hayday pre /SCH Sublimation that allowed WHM to begin competeing with longevity.)

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 7:18pm by rdmcandie
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#46 Jun 26 2013 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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SCH can heal pretty well and has good MP sustainability, but nothing beats a modern WHM in terms of healing. Nothing comes even close, not even SCH. It can't heal as fast without stratagems, can't cast big Curagas without stratagems (which cause it to cost a lot of MP, whereas I cast Curaga IV and heal 1125 HP on the whole party without spending a single MP), doesn't get Cureskin, doesn't get merited/augmented Protectra & Shellra, doesn't get insanely powerful barspells, etc. A well-equipped WHM basically cures for free. My MP goes up while I cure, even without ballads or evokers.

There is no reason a WHM should ever run out of MP in a plasm farm. Ever.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 4:21pm by Pergatory
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#47 Jun 26 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
detlef wrote:
SCH is more sustainable as a healer for plasm farming that WHM so that might be what's happening to the OP. However, with the proper support and a proper idle set you should be able to hold your own. The thread has been focused primarily on job acceptance but does the OP have acceptable gear?


As long as brds are singing refresh songs on whms they should never have trouble with MP.

God knows I can't think of more than once or twice that the whm I am in charge of has gone below 30%of their max MP, and I've never been in a situation where they have had to stop healing at any point.
I'm pretty sure I said that a WHM with proper support should be fine.
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#48 Jun 26 2013 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
pocketsphat wrote:
Thoughts? Opinions?


My thoughts and opinions are that you are either a troll/sock account here, or so completely insulated from actual game play mentality of your fellow players that it's unbelievable that you haven't not progressed out of the sandbox and past the issue of "why am I forced to play other jobs and can't play on my favorite unique snowflake job all of the time".



My thoughts are you are a bit of a douche.


First, I did not ask for your thoughts or opinions. This thread is about the OP asking for anyone else's thoughts or opinions, and I qualify. Thank you for deraling yet another thread.

Secondly, my thoughts are you are a gigantic douche, not just a bit of one.

rdmcandie wrote:

Everyone has the right to play how they want to play.


Correct, and if their play style is uniquely idiotic, others have the right to call a spade a spade. That isn't being a jerk, an elitist, or other moniker you want to use to denigrate common sense.

You aren't doing anyone any favors by stating the obvious "durr they have the right to play how they want". The consequence of playing you how want, if that's not what others want, is that you end up right where the OP is - ranting about where her own behavior got her.

rdmcandie wrote:

OP just needs to understand that his play options are limited to what the other players find useful.


And when OP asks for anyone's opinions or thoughts on why others don't find her playstyle to be useful or any other part of his rant, I, as one of those others, have the right to comment that the only possible explanation in 2013, 11 years after this game has been out, and pretty far along in the MMO lifecycle, is that the thread is the result of a troll, sock, or even blatant detachment from the game. When it smells like a square peg, looks like a square peg, all but explicitly says it's a square peg, don't get angry when people respond to a request for opinions or thoughts with: "Hey, seems like you're a square peg!"

rdmcandie wrote:

In my particular case the vast majority of the FFXI community found no use for a melee RDM. I however found a niche roll in a group and was able to move forward using not so "standard" strategies. I also however didn't expect others to invite me based on that merit, but I also told others that they shouldn't blindly dismiss the variable options, because standard or optimal are not always available.

But ya, you have a pretty narrow outlook on the game, Barrister, as a fellow player I do not share your opinion, does this mean I am detached as well?


A resounding yes.


Edited, Jun 26th 2013 11:37pm by TheBarrister
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#49 Jun 26 2013 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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TheBarrister wrote:

First, I did not ask for your thoughts or opinions. This thread is about the OP asking for anyone else's thoughts or opinions, and I qualify. Thank you for deraling yet another thread.

Secondly, my thoughts are you are a gigantic douche, not just a bit of one.


No I don't care that you did or not was just pointing out you being a douche for no reason. Instead of telling the OP things are possible you just need to find other people, and develop different strategies, you basically called him an ungrateful git, who is out of touch with how this community actually plays the game. Which is something that this community (ZAM specifically) has a historical record of not doing. Well those who do find themselves banned eventually.

Also I am a douche, but guess what, I don't expect people to like me or even listen to me, I offer my constructive (and sometimes deconstructive) opinions, some enjoy what I have to say some don't. But you are right, I am a giant internet douche. Love me or hate me, DGAF.

Quote:
Correct, and if their play style is uniquely idiotic, others have the right to call a spade a spade. That isn't being a jerk, an elitist, or other moniker you want to use to denigrate common sense.
You aren't doing anyone any favors by stating the obvious "durr they have the right to play how they want". The consequence of playing you how want, if that's not what others want, is that you end up right where the OP is - ranting about where her own behavior got her.


Selective quoting always has a great way of helping to shape ones argument does it not. I said everyone has the right to play, but that doesn't mean people have to play with you, that is the non douchebag way of saying you will have to conform to some degree to progress. Or you can go straight @#%^ about it, and call the guy a piece of sh*t who is out of reality, and mentally inept. OP is ranting because the people who they thought were friends discarded her because she doesn't want to level a job they deem useful. Sure she can level a new job, learn a new job, gear a new job to suck on the teet of the great pixel gods. Or she can find new friends, try new tactics, decide that she doesn't actually care for pixels.

You say she is incompetent, and demeaning towards others ability to play the game. That it was her attitude that was the cause of the problem. I say that the OP needs to understand that not everything is useful in every situation, you might need more than one job, and that many job combinations are capable of clearing content, assuming the people behind the job are competent.


As for this being the end result, it is only such if one does not accept that their play style might not attract popular attention. I played a melee RDM for the better part of 8 years, conforming to the status quo in events, until I said @#%^ it. But I managed to complete storyline, gear progressions with small groups, solo, and even melee RDM in big groups at times. So no, it isn't a one way street, and I feel sorry for you as a gamer if you feel it is.

Quote:
And when OP asks for anyone's opinions or thoughts on why others don't find her playstyle to be useful or any other part of his rant, I, as one of those others, have the right to comment that the only possible explanation in 2013, 11 years after this game has been out, and pretty far along in the MMO lifecycle, is that the thread is the result of a troll, sock, or even blatant detachment from the game. When it smells like a square peg, looks like a square peg, all but explicitly says it's a square peg, don't get angry when people respond to a request for opinions or thoughts with: "Hey, seems like you're a square peg!"


Is it so shocking to you that new people still grab this game? That people not based in a decade worth of epeen pissing contests and dick high fives do exist. Just because the game is a decade old doesn't mean the knowledge base is available, let alone one that chronicles the entirety of FFXI, FOTM community drama fests. The older a game gets the less actual Meta knowledge exists, when new people come, there isn't the young bumbling I help you, you help me community. Its a "I am sick of grinding the same type of sh*t I did 8 years ago, lets make the best so it takes less time"

It is highly ignorant of you to expect a newer player to understand the overarching community. From what I have gathered OP found a job they liked, and now have hit a wall where the community says, your job sucks. But instead of helping the OP to understand situation difference, you (yes personally you) have basically told this player that they have to play how you want, or they may as well GTFO because they are useless to anyone involved in the game.

Quote:
A resounding yes.


Of course you do, but then again thats why you have no friends. At least I have 2 or 3.

(By the way, you would'nt know a derail if it bit you in the ass.)

Edited, Jun 27th 2013 12:52am by rdmcandie

Edited, Jun 27th 2013 12:56am by rdmcandie
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#50 Jun 27 2013 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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detlef wrote:
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
detlef wrote:
SCH is more sustainable as a healer for plasm farming that WHM so that might be what's happening to the OP. However, with the proper support and a proper idle set you should be able to hold your own. The thread has been focused primarily on job acceptance but does the OP have acceptable gear?


As long as brds are singing refresh songs on whms they should never have trouble with MP.

God knows I can't think of more than once or twice that the whm I am in charge of has gone below 30%of their max MP, and I've never been in a situation where they have had to stop healing at any point.
I'm pretty sure I said that a WHM with proper support should be fine.


You did! Full cred. I mostly was just incredulous at the idea of an alliance environment where whm wasn't receiving enough support to outshine sch as a healer

In my experience SCH shines when they a) have specific procs (voidwatch) b) their 1 hour is useful c) they are stunning - if it is healing only WHM wins as long as your support and your whm isn't stupid

unfortunately I've caught/seen quite a few people bringing their Dbox whm into delve, and it is a bummer and a scar on the whm job, because they let people die with their crappy reaction time and general halfassedness

If I am on whm for example, and I see a party member's HP go down, I am desperately trying to target them. If they are pulling I am heading closer to where they will come out to dump a heal on them. Meanwhile, as BRD I run right in front of a whm with a mob (that resisted sleep cause I am using earth staff not my chatoyant and also RNG biatches) kicking my ass, and they don't send a single cure my way... I am usually pretty pissed off, especially since I am religious about giving mages buffs between pulls and hasting and no one else is close to dying and they are at 80% MP


Edited, Jun 26th 2013 11:37pm by Olorinus
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#51 Jun 27 2013 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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Put a gun to my head for Delve farming and I'll pick the SCH over WHM. I like regen and phalanx as well as access for stuff. I can see how someone might prefer a SCH but I'm surprised that a WHM would be turned away.
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