It's absolutely an extra level of communication. I pull all the time as COR and frequently, even with very well setup parties, communication, etc., run into questions during the run. For example, sending me by myself to pull the West is a complete waste of time in Ceizak. I'm sitting there most of the time watching this room for repops and the big room can handle itself. The east side can also be managed by one puller. However, I see most groups setup with "Alright 3 cors, 3 bards and 1 thief - you all are pulling. GOEZZ!!!"
Unfortunately, a bigger problem is these average geared linkshell shouts. I've started not responding to some of these because their DD are really bad. As in, would not be hitting mobs if it weren't for throwing their airlixrs at Delve and barely having enough extra acc on the weapon and from hunters roll + madigal to hit, while eating sushi. This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve. Then the quality would at least be consistent, and we wouldn't have these groups that leap-year jumped from casual +2 empyrean farmers to thinking they could tackle this content well (as long as they got some really good support!) I guess the foregone conclusion I've known all along is to join a good group or start my own.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 4:51pm by TheBarrister
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As a bard I keep an eye on how the group is doing. Red hits = you keep one march and one madrigal. Nothing but white text from whiffs = you're getting double madrigal and you're going to like it.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 5:27pm by Catwho
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 5:27pm by Catwho
TheBarrister wrote:
Unfortunately, a bigger problem is these average geared linkshell shouts. I've started not responding to some of these because their DD are really bad. As in, would not be hitting mobs if it weren't for throwing their airlixrs at Delve and barely having enough extra acc on the weapon and from hunters roll + madigal to hit, while eating sushi. This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve. Then the quality would at least be consistent, and we wouldn't have these groups that leap-year jumped from casual +2 empyrean farmers to thinking they could tackle this content well (as long as they got some really good support!) I guess the foregone conclusion I've known all along is to join a good group or start my own.
You stated a problem in your first sentence. You stated a solution in your second sentence. What's the point of the rest of the paragraph?
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Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Catwho wrote:
As a bard I keep an eye on how the group is doing. Red hits = you keep one march and one madrigal. Nothing but white text from whiffs = you're getting double madrigal and you're going to like it.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 5:27pm by Catwho
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 5:27pm by Catwho
Never ever do this. At low hit rate double march is still better then double madrigal from a DPS point of view. Their also getting 15% haste spell, 25% gear haste and usually 10% JA haste so your robbing them of a very large amount of potential damage, even if their at a 50% hit rate. Accuracy scales linearly until it caps, haste scales logarithmically.
256 + 150 = 406/1024 with Hasso being 102 for a total of 508/1024 or 49.6% haste. Assuming the +3 instrument your two songs are adding 256/1024 or 25% haste for a total increase of 98% damage. GHorn would more then double their damage.
Double Madrigal with a +3 instrument is +59 accuracy or 29.5% hit rate, with Ghorn it's +65 accuracy for a total of 32.5% hit rate.
March's are so far beyond anything else that to substitute them is actually causing your melee's to do worse not better.
There is one time when Mads would be better and that's when your melee's are ~just~ at floored hit rate (not under floor being rounded up). This would require your melee's to be 90 ~ 110 accuracy under the monsters evasion, if their more then part of the buff effect is being wasted, if their more then march's start to be better.
Fermion wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Unfortunately, a bigger problem is these average geared linkshell shouts. I've started not responding to some of these because their DD are really bad. As in, would not be hitting mobs if it weren't for throwing their airlixrs at Delve and barely having enough extra acc on the weapon and from hunters roll + madigal to hit, while eating sushi. This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve. Then the quality would at least be consistent, and we wouldn't have these groups that leap-year jumped from casual +2 empyrean farmers to thinking they could tackle this content well (as long as they got some really good support!) I guess the foregone conclusion I've known all along is to join a good group or start my own.
You stated a problem in your first sentence. You stated a solution in your second sentence. What's the point of the rest of the paragraph?
The fourth sentence is a better solution.
Carbuncle
Almalieque wrote:
Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Like it or not, 90 R/E/M and at least level 5-7 Delve weapons are standard, not stand out.
Carbuncle
TheBarrister wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Like it or not, 90 R/E/M and at least level 5-7 Delve weapons are standard, not stand out.
No, it's not the standard. You're just an idiot.
BrownDuck wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Like it or not, 90 R/E/M and at least level 5-7 Delve weapons are standard, not stand out.
No, it's not the standard. You're just an idiot.
when almost every melee you see has either a R/E/D, the standard has risen a tier.
TheBarrister wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Like it or not, 90 R/E/M and at least level 5-7 Delve weapons are standard, not stand out.
As I said, if that's the case, then it's the game mechanics that need to be changed, not the players.
BrownDuck wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Like it or not, 90 R/E/M and at least level 5-7 Delve weapons are standard, not stand out.
No, it's not the standard. You're just an idiot.
No it really is. An R/E/M is nothing special and neither is a low grade Delve weapon. It means you're an average endgame player. I guess compared to level 1 mules it might be special, or compared to the 5 people per day that just came back or are thinking of reactivating, it's considered to be Everest level, but these are not uncommon at level 99.
Carbuncle
Almalieque wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Barrister wrote:
This makes me wish they had made 95 R/M/E a requirement for getting access to Delve.
I was all about making the min level 75ish for abyssea, but this is absurd. If you need REM to do damage on those mobs, then the content needs to be changed, not the players. REM (or like gear) should be reserved for the "best" players who want to stand out and do the max/min of their job. It should not be the standard nor should a normal player be required to have one to do their job.
Like it or not, 90 R/E/M and at least level 5-7 Delve weapons are standard, not stand out.
As I said, if that's the case, then it's the game mechanics that need to be changed, not the players.
Agreed. The mechanics needs to force average players to get better gear in order to participate in better content.
Carbuncle
saevellakshmi wrote:
Catwho wrote:
As a bard I keep an eye on how the group is doing. Red hits = you keep one march and one madrigal. Nothing but white text from whiffs = you're getting double madrigal and you're going to like it.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 5:27pm by Catwho
Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 5:27pm by Catwho
Never ever do this. At low hit rate double march is still better then double madrigal from a DPS point of view. Their also getting 15% haste spell, 25% gear haste and usually 10% JA haste so your robbing them of a very large amount of potential damage, even if their at a 50% hit rate. Accuracy scales linearly until it caps, haste scales logarithmically.
256 + 150 = 406/1024 with Hasso being 102 for a total of 508/1024 or 49.6% haste. Assuming the +3 instrument your two songs are adding 256/1024 or 25% haste for a total increase of 98% damage. GHorn would more then double their damage.
Double Madrigal with a +3 instrument is +59 accuracy or 29.5% hit rate, with Ghorn it's +65 accuracy for a total of 32.5% hit rate.
March's are so far beyond anything else that to substitute them is actually causing your melee's to do worse not better.
There is one time when Mads would be better and that's when your melee's are ~just~ at floored hit rate (not under floor being rounded up). This would require your melee's to be 90 ~ 110 accuracy under the monsters evasion, if their more then part of the buff effect is being wasted, if their more then march's start to be better.
No. If you're not able to hit the stupid thing at all, making you swing and miss faster is not helping. I've been doing this long enough with a parse from Dynamis that I can usually tell what the cutoff is for the better DPS. If someone is floored out at 20% accuracy and my madrigals can bring them closer to 50-60% accuracy, they're going to do a hell of a lot better than they would with an extra 28% haste from my marches. (March formula is kind of screwed up still since SE never actually adjusted it for 99.)
That's why I changed "X hits for Y damage" in my log to bright red for my party. Lots of red in my text log means everyone is doing reasonably well and they get to keep their marches. Nothing but white means everyone forgot to eat their sushi wheaties and they need an accuracy boost. I'm talking about pickup plasm farming, specifically, since NM clears will probably have me doing a bard rotation and Soul Voice.
This will all be moot when I get my 90 Dharp and can give them three songs.
Edited, Jun 4th 2013 12:19pm by Catwho
What food are your DDs using? What fracture are we talking about? Decent DDs should not be having serious accuracy issues in Morimar.
Also, you should really be doing double Marches. If one of your DDs has poor accuracy, he should be using sushi to compensate.
Also, you should really be doing double Marches. If one of your DDs has poor accuracy, he should be using sushi to compensate.
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
detlef wrote:
What food are your DDs using? What fracture are we talking about? Decent DDs should not be having serious accuracy issues in Morimar.
Also, you should really be doing double Marches. If one of your DDs has poor accuracy, he should be using sushi to compensate.
Also, you should really be doing double Marches. If one of your DDs has poor accuracy, he should be using sushi to compensate.
Since these are pick up groups and people are more concerned about someone having a REM or Delve weapon than they are a proper gear set or bringing food... Yeah, it'd be great if the DDs were using sushi. I'm lucky if one person in my party does.
It's not my job to keep a stack of sushi in my pocket and hand out snacks before we start fighting, although I may just start keeping a stack in my bazaar and threaten to withhold marches until they eat something.
Hasn't been a problem in my linkshell groups, thank goodness. We make fun of the parse obsessed types, but they're the ones that figured out they might want to swap out a piece of attack gear for an accuracy piece in Delve farming, because they could see they were nowhere near 95% accuracy any more.
There's a reason I don't go THF to Delves, even with my cute little mezzotinted dagger, and it's because I got lazy with my THF gear sets and I'll perform terribly in there. But I'm not a career thief.
I guess soon the shouts will be
<Morimar Basalt Fields> Plasm Farm <Do you need it?> BRD COR PLD <Sacrifice> DD Level 15 Delve Weapon + Level 15 Full Armor Set Only.
That's for content that was and always will be meant to be done with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II gear. Wherever SE sets the bar, our warm and welcoming community will always set it several levels higher because even though they claim they enjoy taking the hard path to power they really want their stuff right now and with the least amount of effort possible.
If this sounds like personal sour grapes it isn't. So far I have one weapon level 12 and working on maxing that out and collecting more armor. Between LS runs and occasional shouts I'll do just fine.
It's more that our community comes off as rather hypocritical and elitist. I think we all want the people around us to be well geared, but many don't want people gearing up on their valuable time. "Not on MY time! Not in MY back yard!" Yet some of those same people will later complain about or make fun of all the gimps.
We play an MMO, in part, for the social experience, yet many seem to do whatever they can to be anti-social and exclude as many as possible from whatever they're doing. "I want to play with hundreds or thousands of other players from all walks of life and from around the world. Well actually I only want to play with those who fit in this neat little box I constructed that, so far, only I fit perfectly in."
I dunno. It's just kind of funny and sad.
<Morimar Basalt Fields> Plasm Farm <Do you need it?> BRD COR PLD <Sacrifice> DD Level 15 Delve Weapon + Level 15 Full Armor Set Only.
That's for content that was and always will be meant to be done with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II gear. Wherever SE sets the bar, our warm and welcoming community will always set it several levels higher because even though they claim they enjoy taking the hard path to power they really want their stuff right now and with the least amount of effort possible.
If this sounds like personal sour grapes it isn't. So far I have one weapon level 12 and working on maxing that out and collecting more armor. Between LS runs and occasional shouts I'll do just fine.
It's more that our community comes off as rather hypocritical and elitist. I think we all want the people around us to be well geared, but many don't want people gearing up on their valuable time. "Not on MY time! Not in MY back yard!" Yet some of those same people will later complain about or make fun of all the gimps.
We play an MMO, in part, for the social experience, yet many seem to do whatever they can to be anti-social and exclude as many as possible from whatever they're doing. "I want to play with hundreds or thousands of other players from all walks of life and from around the world. Well actually I only want to play with those who fit in this neat little box I constructed that, so far, only I fit perfectly in."
I dunno. It's just kind of funny and sad.
I don't think asking someone to eat a 5K piece of food before starting an endgame raid is elitist.
ShamanTaru wrote:
Camiie wrote:
ShamanTaru wrote:
Sorry, but crappy geared players ruin stuff nowadays. In abyssea and voidwatch the top tier guys could hold up the gimpies, and still kill things. Now the whole group needs to be decently geared, not great, but decent to do adoulin content. I started booting crappy players because they waste the other 17 players time if we fail because they decided that meleeing in MAB gear on BLU is fine so they can be a unique snowflake. Gear and playstyle actually matter, and if you aren't willing to keep up, then adios.
So, what's your criteria for crappy or decently geared? I think the problem often is people think you can't complete content without the very gear it provides or greater, and that's clearly not the case or we have SERIOUS design and balance problems. Maybe you don't hold people to unrealistic standards, and that's great. Many do, unfortunately and that is not a sign of a good, smart, or healthy community.
Edited, May 24th 2013 8:50am by Camiie
When I get tards that say "I usually parse top 5, so I don't bother to gear swap", BRDs that refuse to pull, WHMs that whine about hasting the melees, that kind of stuff. Also have the BLU that full-times some hodgepodge set of MAB/MACC/Haste gear thinking that is fine. None of this has to do w/ having new content gear, but people just being lazy due to years of a game where the stronger players could carry the windowlickers through content.
So what's a non haste whm or non brd pulling got to do with gear.
WHM that doesn't haste melees well why is he still in your party? BRD that doesn't want to pull well why is he in your party. Last I checked SE hasn't removed the option to kick party members who are not doing what you want. If you are keeping them because there is no more BRDs or WHMs then frankly it's tough luck. As for gear again as some one else said what's gear got to do with it, I have a few low level jobs remaining with crappy gear, so,what ? As for my 99s I always do my best to have good gear before I bring them along to events UNLESS the job is really needed so you going to complain at my gear then?
I could say the snobbery players are killing the game but again I wouldn't play with players like that. There are link shells for casuals, end game and HD end game.
Catwho wrote:
I don't think asking someone to eat a 5K piece of food before starting an endgame raid is elitist.
I don't think so either. I usually pop a marinara pizza or a +1 and hope I don't die.
Back to the Marches debate, I would just do double Marches and not kowtow to bad players. DDs who do not use food should be replaced (and suitable replacements should be abundant).
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
detlef wrote:
Back to the Marches debate, I would just do double Marches and not kowtow to bad players. DDs who do not use food should be replaced (and suitable replacements should be abundant).
Yeah Delve runs would be great if you could just replace DD mid-run.
If only... Still the next best thing is not inviting the offending party member any more.
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
detlef wrote:
Back to the Marches debate, I would just do double Marches and not kowtow to bad players. DDs who do not use food should be replaced (and suitable replacements should be abundant).
Unfortunately, even after getting kicked out of runs like that, DDs (or players in general really), won't fix their mistakes. I've seen a number of runs lately where people have been called out and removed from runs due to being terrible in some sense (mages that won't cure properly, DDs that are fanning the mobs with their whiffed attacks, etc), but they'll come back the next day, expecting to be able to get back in even though they've made no changes to their gear or their play style.
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Honestly, I still have acc gear that I still use. Yea yea, floored acc better damage, but I never got out of the habit. Kind of glad now!
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