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Delve is ruining friendships and relationships...Follow

#77 May 21 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Erecia wrote:
RIP, Promyvion. There has never been a dungeon as terrifying in FFXI as Promyvion - Holla, and there never will be again.
"Do you have the necessary items?"
"No"
"No? Why not?"
"Too expensive."
"You can farm them, you know."
"Takes too long."

Which lead to the inevitable "BUT THE ELITISTS WON'T HELP MEEEE!"

Edited, May 21st 2013 5:42pm by lolgaxe

Farming these items gives me good memories. Think I could sell the animas for 8k (huge gil for me at the time). Plus, it led to my best drop day. Farmed Holla, decided to run to dem on foot, took a detour in dunes, VE up and got drop 1/1. Footed it over to gustaberg on a whim, bam got lizzies boots.
#78 May 21 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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xantav wrote:
Farming these items gives me good memories.


OH HO HO. I see what you did there.
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#79 May 21 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Erecia wrote:
RIP, Promyvion. There has never been a dungeon as terrifying in FFXI as Promyvion - Holla, and there never will be again.

"Do you have the necessary items to hit a mob for 80% accuracy in Fracture or Delve Field NMs or otherwise perform the role we need?"
"No"
"No? Why not?"
"Too expensive."
"You can farm them, you know."
"Takes too long."

Which lead to the inevitable "BUT THE ELITISTS WON'T HELP MEEEE!"

Edited, May 21st 2013 5:42pm by lolgaxe


Absolutely right!!
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#80 May 21 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
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I believe the "non-elitist" are just as much to blame as the elitist. People in perle/teal/AF3+1 and lvl 80-90 AH weapons only wanting to do Delve NM/farming would be as bad as people wanting to do sky gods and kirin at lvl 60 when the cap was still 75. SE set up a way to get good gear with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II/etc before moving onto delve. All the weaker players just want to take the easy road and get the best right away instead of taking time to get their jobs good enough to the point that the delve fights are winnable.

There are 100's of these players that could be shouting for skirmish but none of them want to do it. Despite people shouting for delve weapon only, a lot i'm sure would take someone that mentioned they had a upgraded skirmish weapon or a 99 RME. Just like how people shouting for RME in VW shouts would almost always take someone that had a good AH weapon or properly geared w/o RME.
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#81 May 21 2013 at 11:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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heldemon wrote:
I believe the "non-elitist" are just as much to blame as the elitist. People in perle/teal/AF3+1 and lvl 80-90 AH weapons only wanting to do Delve NM/farming would be as bad as people wanting to do sky gods and kirin at lvl 60 when the cap was still 75. SE set up a way to get good gear with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II/etc before moving onto delve. All the weaker players just want to take the easy road and get the best right away instead of taking time to get their jobs good enough to the point that the delve fights are winnable.

I see it more akin to telling people they have to have sky gods drops before they are able to fight the sky gods.

Quote:
There are 100's of these players that could be shouting for skirmish but none of them want to do it. Despite people shouting for delve weapon only, a lot i'm sure would take someone that mentioned they had a upgraded skirmish weapon or a 99 RME. Just like how people shouting for RME in VW shouts would almost always take someone that had a good AH weapon or properly geared w/o RME.

I agree to a point. It is pretty hard to go into something knowing that it is already obsolete, which I think is the reason people aren't doing it.
#82 May 21 2013 at 11:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I personally have no issue with the thought of doing some Skirmish to get prepped for Delve, it is a fair assessment that some wish to "skip ahead" given the pre-timer progress others had made as well as the general feel of wanting to be doing the same thing as your peers.

As such, to encourage people to take that step, I'm thinking it'd be a good idea for SE to slip in items that would weaken the outside NMs not unlike the VW clusters. Let's just keep it simple and say they reduce max HP. So, you do 6 or so runs and your collective group comes out with 2 weakening items. If two other groups do the same, you'd have 6. Though let's make the cut-off 5 with each one reducing the mob's HP by 10%. A like-minded alliance forms up, hopefully now with better weapons, but at the same time not as pressured by the 20m timer. They can now get their Delve KIs and begin that step of progression. The weakening items should also be buyable with the Skirmish currency.

Making them AH/trade capable will give people a minor financial incentive to help out if they don't need Skirmish weapons, but this is also where I say the personal loot pools can benefit from a healthy upgrade. If people find you could get the material to make the Haste+10% belt, you can be sure Skirmish would be done simply for that. Of course, I'd also pressure SE to make crafted weapons between the base-skirmish drop and best augments so there's a bit of middle-ground and ease in getting multiple jobs to a more reasonable level. Could also expand this more to gear, but I'd also just say the Bayld stuff should be cheaper and higher quality.
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#83 May 22 2013 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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xantav wrote:
I agree to a point. It is pretty hard to go into something knowing that it is already obsolete, which I think is the reason people aren't doing it.
Going by what I've seen over the years, the trick is really to establish your "entry-level" content, ensure people are aware that they need to prepare themselves through the entry level content, keeping in mind that you can't keep them there for a super long period of time, and implementing leapfrog venues (purchasable gear, gear drops from certain events, and craftables that can help someone prepare for the next tier) when necessary.

Looking over Skirmish, I can point out one thing that makes it pale compared to Delve. Rewards are steady and you know what you're getting in Delve, as opposed to playing roulette with upgrading Skirmish weapons (why they decided to reuse the BS synergy augment system for something like Skirmish is beyond me). Ideally, I think Skirmish weapons should be sort of like a mini-version of the delve upgrade system, to get you used to the idea of powering up a weapon while helping you prepare for delve stat-wise. Have a ternary (since Bayld is the secondary) currency you get in small amounts for doing Skirmish for a few select pieces of gear and items that can be purchased from the Inventor's Coalition (separate from Bayld gear), and additional gear that can drop in Skirmish itself.

There, I just turned Skirmish into a stepping stone to Delve with some rewards that may (hopefully) encourage people to participate and help even after they're done upgrading weapons.

Edited, May 22nd 2013 4:04am by Ruisu
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#84 May 22 2013 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't really consider an event that gives a large boost obsolete. It's only really obsolete to people that have better gear.

Didn't see above reply but from what I've seen on BG wiki about skirmish if you are doing higher Tier skirmish it doesn't look like it would take long at all given how many items will drop upon 1st/2nd completions. That would be a great idea though

Edited, May 22nd 2013 4:16am by heldemon
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#85 May 22 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Glad to see allakhazam is returning to normal after a 3 year hiatus cause the game was too easy. Get this, Delve is not needed to participate in current content. Delve is the end tier content meant for top tier players. It's like getting past airship in level 1 gear. Ain't gonna happen. The playerbase got spoiled with easy content so the could play like Gods. And very greedy as well. I'll say it again for the people that didn't listen: Delve gear is not needed to participate in current content! Yes, that means Delve as well! Brush up your skills, read strats, build a ls or gather a good bunch of friends on your friendlist and everyone can defeat outside Delve Nms. Did you get instant wins on Odin when that content was released? No, almost no one did. Never got past airship when it was new? Try again. Stop complaining and step your game up. There is at least one friend on your friendlist who knows how to tackle these Nms. And maybe farming plasm will net you 4k or lower per run initially, who cares? In the end you can easily buy those weapons. Stop complaining, start playing. My friend farms plasm with people that dont know how to play their jobs, go afk and all that. We get plasm. Period. Can't get win outside? Farm inside. One of your friends has the Wildkeeper Reive KI to enter. Dont have Wildkeeper KI? Join the people striving for that right now. Loads of people participating in those atm on Asura. I can get wins for PUGs, I am definitely not a top tier player. Yes, Delve NMs as well. Outside. Inside is even easier. More time to defeat NMs.
#86 May 22 2013 at 4:27 AM Rating: Good
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heldemon wrote:
I believe the "non-elitist" are just as much to blame as the elitist. People in perle/teal/AF3+1 and lvl 80-90 AH weapons only wanting to do Delve NM/farming would be as bad as people wanting to do sky gods and kirin at lvl 60 when the cap was still 75.


That's not what's happening here... AT ALL.

Quote:
SE set up a way to get good gear with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II/etc before moving onto delve. All the weaker players just want to take the easy road and get the best right away instead of taking time to get their jobs good enough to the point that the delve fights are winnable.


People are following the path SE set and still being locked out because they don't already have the very item that they are attempting to join runs to farm for.


Quote:
There are 100's of these players that could be shouting for skirmish but none of them want to do it. Despite people shouting for delve weapon only, a lot i'm sure would take someone that mentioned they had a upgraded skirmish weapon or a 99 RME. Just like how people shouting for RME in VW shouts would almost always take someone that had a good AH weapon or properly geared w/o RME.


Yes, unreasonable people tend to become reasonable with just a few words. I've found that Delve DD Only means Delve DD Only. You might get around it if you have a friend in a vital position in the ally, but that's about it.
#87 May 22 2013 at 5:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
I think what it really comes down to, more than anything else, is that most people nowadays aren't used to the old "meripo" approach to doing things, and it really shows.
Basically you want to kill as many mobs as possible in the time limit, but if you try too hard and get KO, it's worse than just taking it easy and letting your natural dmg do its job, and worse if you try too hard even while weakened.

Yeah, stuff like a DRK/SAM (and you know how healers just looooove them from the ones who know nothing but zerg even when exp/farming) going Souleater and when quad attack kicks in they spike their own HP down and KO. And then they continue to zerg and take hate while zombie. At least there's no chains to keep going in plasm farming. (I was in a run yesterday where the DRK/SAM Souleatered himself into a KO, but then paid more attention once he realized what he did. We got 6K.)

Also, please don't forget to consider your WHM's MP level. Sure, early on there's probably a convert available, but it's 10 minutes to the next one. If your WHM is doing curagas to cureskin everyone, that sucks up MP, and the BRD may not be keeping up with ballads or a wrong song may be up because the WHM had to chase the party at the wrong moment. But when you see your WHM with 200 MP, that's not the time to drop a Souleater and spike your HP way down below everyone else's. Curaga mode works best when hate can bounce around to even out damage between people. I'd rather see people wear -PDT (go farm some dark rings?) and be the Tortoise than zerg and be the Hare.

And of course then there's stuff you can't really do anything about. In a run yesterday, one of the PLDs disconnected while holding 3 NMs, the NMs wandered to the farming group in the first big room before he could get back in, and total Jurassic Park mode ensued. At least we got 1900 from it.
#88 May 22 2013 at 6:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
This pisses me off.

This is the reason, the purpose, and the message of this thread in direct, horrible consequences. It says nothing of the members of the LS. This is what happens. This is what always happens. When content is walled off and held hostage by the elites of the server, people need to make choices like this. They should not. Ever. This is why we had the huge gap I've talked about. This is why people quit. This is the bottom line on why content like this destroys the community.


I've got a social shell whose members mostly want a piece of Delve gear, and yet I can't think of any of them that for one second would be tempted into ditching their ls in favor of some other totalitarian Delve ls.

If you have people who are doing this, obviously for them they care more about their gear than they do their friends/ls. Assuming they even saw you as friends at all. There's really nothing else to it. There have been people like this in the game since way before Delve existed, so don't blame the event.



Large numbers of the Lakshmi EU population have jumped servers and thus dumped all their old socials to join "End Game" linkshells in other places. Players can and will dump a social if its the only means to progress and continue playing the game. That's been the central issue with SoA content, SE attempted to make a progression system and f*cked it up royally. Delve tier IV/V NM's should of been held off for another four months or so while SE impliments better Skirmish / WildKeeper type stuff. Fix the random BS skirmish augments and make them a progression system like Delve (make it bayld as an incentive to continue doing reive). Part of "progressing" is releasing content in incremental stages, Step 1 -> 2 -> 3 ->4 ->5, not Step 1 -> 3 -> 5 -> 2 -> 4 -> 6 -> 2.5.

Edited, May 22nd 2013 2:10pm by saevellakshmi
#89 May 22 2013 at 8:22 AM Rating: Default
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Depending on your perspective, the divide between casuals and elitists is smaller than its ever been.

Pre-patch, the divide was based off R/M/E weapons, any one of which can take months to create. Starting off a brand-new or returning player on that particular treadmill is a daunting proposition at best.

Post-patch, the divide is based off Delve weapons, any one of which takes a KI from one 20-minute fight and 5-7 Plasma farms at 45 minutes each. All told, it's roughly 245-335 minutes of events (4-5 hours).

Honestly, if I were a casual coming back to the game at this point, I would be ecstatic. I'd probably tough it out, ignore those elitist groups protecting their precious Plasma-per-hour who are locking out people without Delve weapons in an event required to get Delve weapons, form my own PUG groups since it's been established PUGs can kill Moth/Orobon/Peiste, join PUGs on a needed support job, or join an established LS without draconian rules (they do exist, I could point to a few on Lakshmi).


Edited, May 22nd 2013 10:26am by Poltergeist27
#90 May 22 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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xantav wrote:
heldemon wrote:
I believe the "non-elitist" are just as much to blame as the elitist. People in perle/teal/AF3+1 and lvl 80-90 AH weapons only wanting to do Delve NM/farming would be as bad as people wanting to do sky gods and kirin at lvl 60 when the cap was still 75. SE set up a way to get good gear with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II/etc before moving onto delve. All the weaker players just want to take the easy road and get the best right away instead of taking time to get their jobs good enough to the point that the delve fights are winnable.

I see it more akin to telling people they have to have sky gods drops before they are able to fight the sky gods.
If Delve weapons weren't so common, people wouldn't be able to shout for Delve-only. But they are common, and everybody wants to come DD. This makes it easier for leaders to be as selective as they want to be. It's as simple as people choosing the best DD options to hopefully make their run as worthwhile as possible for participants. I mean, I haven't been able to come DRG to a fracture farming run in forever for the same reason.
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#91 May 22 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Erecia wrote:
Guppie wrote:
[I think SE learned the wrong lesson, as they continued to nerf it, turning Promyvion into a boring stroll-through.


RIP, Promyvion. There has never been a dungeon as terrifying in FFXI as Promyvion - Holla, and there never will be again.


Especially when all you found whats dud memory recepticals.
My first experience there was with a full alliance trying to climb to the top and after 3hrs the MRs were glitching.
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#92 May 22 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
I'm kind of looking at this from a stranger perspective than most. As a career bard that's stuck with it through thick and thin during Abyssea when the job became a "boutique" job and half my fellow bards ran off and leveled SCH instead.... I can't help but feel a little vindicated in deciding to stick with it. Bards don't need delve stuff because SE decided that Dharp and Ghorn are over powered enough, and yet we're the ones (along with Ochain paladins) that alliances spend an hour screaming for. I'm 7K plasm short of the 30K for a stage 1 Delve weapon, and I have the utter luxury of getting it for some job besides my "main" job. (Only reason I don't have it yet is because I'm in vacation in the bahamas and the internet here in the hotel is rather.... delicate. I'd rather be playing XI than be on the beach since it's pouring rain outside right now.)
#93 May 22 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
Guppie wrote:
[I think SE learned the wrong lesson, as they continued to nerf it, turning Promyvion into a boring stroll-through.


RIP, Promyvion. There has never been a dungeon as terrifying in FFXI as Promyvion - Holla, and there never will be again.


I loved Promyvion. Helped lots of people through it. Yes, Holla was kinda scary haha, but I memorized all the routes so agro was kept to a minimum. Hmmm, kinda reminds me of a few PUG Delve groups I joined to help out. Some people just won't listen to reason.Smiley: oyvey Gonna help my social with getting another Delve win when I get back, need moar people with wins.
#94 May 22 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I'm kind of looking at this from a stranger perspective than most. As a career bard that's stuck with it through thick and thin during Abyssea when the job became a "boutique" job and half my fellow bards ran off and leveled SCH instead.... I can't help but feel a little vindicated in deciding to stick with it. Bards don't need delve stuff because SE decided that Dharp and Ghorn are over powered enough, and yet we're the ones (along with Ochain paladins) that alliances spend an hour screaming for. I'm 7K plasm short of the 30K for a stage 1 Delve weapon, and I have the utter luxury of getting it for some job besides my "main" job. (Only reason I don't have it yet is because I'm in vacation in the bahamas and the internet here in the hotel is rather.... delicate. I'd rather be playing XI than be on the beach since it's pouring rain outside right now.)
We have the added guarantee of Ghorn/Daurdabla being "the best" for the remainder of the game's lifespan and a Mythic whose effects are unlikely to be duplicated (but who knows).

BRD was never not useful. More than anything the job was always the ultimate support job that let you kill things faster and fight sustainably. The only time I felt pushed off the job was for Nyzul, and then I leveled SCH and really enjoyed that (so much that I leveled it on a mule too).

My one complaint is that Delve plasm groups have brought out the absolute worst BRDs out there. It's sad that really good players are turned away in favor of them.
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#95 May 22 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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detlef wrote:

BRD was never not useful. More than anything the job was always the ultimate support job that let you kill things faster and fight sustainably.


Brd was not really sought after during abyssea once procs were figured out. No one cares to kill things a little faster if they have to actually share drops with you.
#96 May 22 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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detlef wrote:
We have the added guarantee of Ghorn/Daurdabla being "the best" for the remainder of the game's lifespan and a Mythic whose effects are unlikely to be duplicated (but who knows).


Are they the best forever or just the best for now? I know they currently have no plans to obsolete the instruments or the shields, but I'm not sure we can safely say it will never happen. I'm not sure anything is sacred in FFXI anymore, for better or for worse.
#97 May 22 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
detlef wrote:
We have the added guarantee of Ghorn/Daurdabla being "the best" for the remainder of the game's lifespan and a Mythic whose effects are unlikely to be duplicated (but who knows).


Are they the best forever or just the best for now? I know they currently have no plans to obsolete the instruments or the shields, but I'm not sure we can safely say it will never happen. I'm not sure anything is sacred in FFXI anymore, for better or for worse.
Well anything could happen. Matsui did say this:

Quote:
In regards to the shields and instruments, even in light of the growth that will take place for characters with Adoulin equipment, these in particular are still at the highest caliber and will not be addressed in the plans mentioned above.
So take from what what you will.
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#98 May 22 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
About the only place left for a new instrument to go, besides beating out the +4 songs on horn and 2 additional song effects on harp, could be breaking the hard caps on the March formula, and that's really something that ought to be done for all bards, not just the REMD folks.

If anything, I'd like BRD to get something besides another horn, harp, or dagger. Maybe a staff or a grip with crazy stats like -20% song cast time, -20% song recast time, +25 MACC on songs, and -15% PDT to boot.
#99 May 22 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah it's hard to say. Stronger songs, longer songs, and additional songs. I can't think of anything that SE could add that would trump or replace what we've already got, but they're paid to be creative so maybe they'll surprise us.
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#100 May 22 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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heldemon wrote:
I believe the "non-elitist" are just as much to blame as the elitist. People in perle/teal/AF3+1 and lvl 80-90 AH weapons only wanting to do Delve NM/farming would be as bad as people wanting to do sky gods and kirin at lvl 60 when the cap was still 75. SE set up a way to get good gear with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II/etc before moving onto delve. All the weaker players just want to take the easy road and get the best right away instead of taking time to get their jobs good enough to the point that the delve fights are winnable.

There are 100's of these players that could be shouting for skirmish but none of them want to do it. Despite people shouting for delve weapon only, a lot i'm sure would take someone that mentioned they had a upgraded skirmish weapon or a 99 RME. Just like how people shouting for RME in VW shouts would almost always take someone that had a good AH weapon or properly geared w/o RME.


I somewhat agree what he said. Delve is endgame content aim for players who are pretty very well gear. Players who took each step on the "gear ladder" to go up in higher tiers. Casuals just want to take one big giant leap forward instead of taking one step at a time. If you want to do that then you have to make compromises of leveling a support job. Does it suck, yes it sucks leveling a job you don't like but there are tons of melee players out there and given the ease of getting a relic/empy weapon, your chances of getting invited are very slim. And if someone who has a relic/empy most likely does some kind of endgame content to better gear themselves. Just hard to compete in the melee scene if you are not very well gear simply there's just too much of them.

Instead of trying to make one giant leap, gather some friends or other casual players to work on an empy weapon or work on other old endgame content to prepare yourselfs. Ask any casual in perle/teal/AF3+1, if they ever experience salvage/einjhar/land kings/sky and sea, I bet an overwhelming majority will say no. Well now is the time to experience those instead of worrying about nothing to do. There are still a lot of very good pieces of gear from them. It might take a month or two longer than someone else but that's the point of being casual, stuff gets done but it takes longer.

#101 May 22 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
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heldemon wrote:
I believe the "non-elitist" are just as much to blame as the elitist. People in perle/teal/AF3+1 and lvl 80-90 AH weapons only wanting to do Delve NM/farming would be as bad as people wanting to do sky gods and kirin at lvl 60 when the cap was still 75. SE set up a way to get good gear with Skirmish/NNI/Salvage II/etc before moving onto delve. All the weaker players just want to take the easy road and get the best right away instead of taking time to get their jobs good enough to the point that the delve fights are winnable.

There are 100's of these players that could be shouting for skirmish but none of them want to do it. Despite people shouting for delve weapon only, a lot i'm sure would take someone that mentioned they had a upgraded skirmish weapon or a 99 RME. Just like how people shouting for RME in VW shouts would almost always take someone that had a good AH weapon or properly geared w/o RME.


You are getting down-voted for some reason, and it's not because you're wrong or being a ****. 100% right.
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