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DelveFollow

#1 Apr 19 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Delve and Content Level

We will be implementing Delve in the end of April version update.

This content will allow you to obtain equipment and enhance them without having to fully complete the content (e.g. defeating the boss), so there is a wide range in the content level (*) between the beginning and the boss.

Give it a shot, and if you feel it's kind of tough, defeat the Delve NMs, obtain the equipment you can get from points and then enhance them. Or try to get the rewards from Skirmish and the equipment that can be bought with Bayld.

Also, in regards to the content level for the Skirmish content which has already been implemented, it is on par with that of the new Salvage and Nyzul Isle Uncharted Investigation, as well as the equipment you can receive through Bayld.

If this also feels a bit too tough for you, try your best to obtain gear from the new Salvage content and through reives. Once you've procured equipment from these, it should feel much easier than when you began to do the new Salvage content.

This new content is being released in a state that has been adjusted for the top players, but we plan on making adjustments to this content for players challenging it afterwards once we implement newer end-game content.

Also, in regards to the content level, the development team is currently trying to zero in on the precision through trial and error, so I would like to continue to post explanations on this.

*Please read my post here for my explanation on content level and the level design for content of Seekers of Adoulin and beyond.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/32736-Delve-Deeper-into-Seekers-of-Adoulin!
#2 Apr 20 2013 at 4:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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In other words, "if this new content seems too difficult, it's because your gear sucks. Go farm some salvage2 and/or skirmish gear and then try again, you gimp."

Am I reading this wrong, or is that essentially what he's saying?



Edited, Apr 20th 2013 6:09am by CorncobWilly
#3 Apr 20 2013 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
That's how I read it, too.
#4 Apr 20 2013 at 6:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yep, that's how I read it as well. I quite like it, lol.
#5 Apr 20 2013 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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I find it more interesting they consider those tiers of gear to be such game breakers. Moreover, if someone told me I had to Salvage in any iteration just to do other content? Hell no. More devs need to realize the segregating players off into tiers isn't a good thing, no matter how much the "pros" may whine about scrubs being on the same level. Otherwise, missing the initial rush in new content pretty much overly complicates the process of progression. Doubly so on sh*t like Salvage with the daily timer.

Edit: In case someone might not grasp the implications, here's the fear: In SE's eyes, in order to Delve, you should have stuff like Neo-Salvage gear. Let's say getting a full set for yourself and your helpers takes 3 months (And remember not everyone multi-boxes to cut corners here). Great, now you can Delve, but then future content potentially requires 3 months of running Delve. Then the new content after that requires 3 more months. Now, imagine yourself a player entering the endgame 6+ months after Delve's release. How many established folks will be done with Salvage, Delve, and content after that? Okay, let's say you find some others willing to help with Salvage, will they be the right jobs? If so, can you then maintain that 3 month pace without it stretching out into 4+ due to scheduling conflicts? And THEN you have to do it all over again with Delve.

The problem with the "We'll nerf it later!" philosophy a number of MMOs employ is that they don't really grasp the logistics issue. Alright, so you can make a boss a little easier so the less organized folks can do it, okay. These people still have no guarantee that when logging on thinking, "I want to do X today!" that they'll actually be able to do it if you need 5-15+ others. As is, SE has a bad history of offering incentive for people to backtrack for others, which usually means diminished interest for antiquated content. But continuing on, there's still the matter of access restrictions, drop rates, and depending on the item, stuff like turn-ins (Salvage gear and prestige weapons, as an example). Could SE buff the drop rates? Maybe. Will they? While it's happened in places, precedent doesn't favor the sentiment. They could also adjust turn-in requirements, but despite the ******** over the 1500 HMP requirement or even the stupid "3 months of soloing Dynamis daily to make a relic" standard some pimp, it's just... oi. Pragmatically, they could add crafted gear later that lets you skip Salvage or even Delve, but this will either never happen or require drops from the later content that will likely be overpriced and out of the reach of players who need it to catch up because those currently on the edge need their own resources to keep up.

Ultimately, it all culminates to luck. If someone can't fall into the right crowd, the odds of them quitting out of frustration escalates. Philosophically, it's peachy keen to assert that MMOs should be about playing with others, but when tiering is invoked and the segregation based on personal progress begins, not having sensible solo options for those times when you can't gather 5-15+ bodies absolutely NEEDS to be there. "I want to do X today!" becomes "I'll never be able to do X..." and potentially "Why do I even bother? *unsub*" when you feel like you're stuck in a rut.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer progression over the pre-2009 sidegrade model, but you've gotta make steps to keep people on equal footing the whole time and not when you feel maybe too many have fallen behind. By then, damage has been done and competition looks more appealing with "things to do" that they actually can do even if they eventually hit the same roadblock in that game.

Edited, Apr 20th 2013 9:18am by Seriha
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#6 Apr 20 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Default
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I foresee a lot of butthurt. The XI community seems to want things nerfed when it's too hard now since everyone seems to have grown inept to doing real content thanks to Abyssea.
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#7 Apr 20 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Whenever someone pops onto the this forum to ask if they should start playing FFXI or return from a break, we all give the same answer: "Find a good linkshell if you want to have access to all the game has to offer." The game has always been this way, and even if it is more solo friendly now, it's still the same concept. There are plenty of other MMO's to choose from if a person doesn't like this format. I don't understand why people are still complaining about this a decade later. Bottom line: you can solo quite a bit in FFXI now, but if you want access to all the best gear, you need the help of others. Why is this such a tragedy? Some of us actually like this idea. If you can't or don't, I'm sorry, but noone forces you to play this particular MMO, and honestly, it's not like there has been a major turn of events where the game has shifted from solo to group play. Actually, it's way more solo-friendly now than it ever was in the past.

Gearwise- If you want NNI gear, then join a good linkshell or farm some gil and buy a win. It's honestly not that hard to obtain anymore. My static has 4x floor 100 wins in 9 runs since the update. It's just an event that isn't PUG friendly. I don't understand why that has to be viewed as a crime. The idea that they would make content that requires you to be a well-geared and well-coordinated group in order to beat it shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. If they didn't, the ENORMOUS portion of the population that has said gear and coordination crushes all the new content immediately and with no challenge. IMO there is plenty of content in the game to satisfy both "tiers" of player without an issue. And the new easymode Bayld gear that was mentioned as well as the new crafted weapons are actually quite competitive with some of the "hard to obtain" pieces so it's not like people don't have options.

Edit: Wall of text...



Edited, Apr 20th 2013 11:24am by ChaChaJaJa
#8 Apr 20 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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It's just an event that isn't PUG friendly. I don't understand why that has to be viewed as a crime. The idea that they would make content that requires you to be a well-geared and well-coordinated group in order to beat it shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing


The law of unintended consequences.
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#9 Apr 20 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
It's just an event that isn't PUG friendly. I don't understand why that has to be viewed as a crime. The idea that they would make content that requires you to be a well-geared and well-coordinated group in order to beat it shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing


The law of unintended consequences.


Eh, I don't think there should be content that requires voice chat to do successfully in a game that doesn't have an integrated voice chat system. Otherwise I don't think requiring a strategy is a bad thing.
#10 Apr 20 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Strategy isn't the bad part, especially once things have been wiki'd to death. But the kind of cohesion some yearn for is a long-term affair not everyone can find, and subsequently ******** these players because they can't is not something I'm okay with. Player politics sucks, and more bodies inevitably translates to more drama.
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#11 Apr 20 2013 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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This makes me not miss ffxi at all.

When SE said this was released in a stat adjusted for the top players it turned me off from making a come back to see what the new expansions is all about. If its one thing SE knows what to do its building a huge gap between ppl and driving a stake inbetween them to make it even wider.
#12 Apr 20 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
Eh, I don't think there should be content that requires voice chat to do successfully in a game that doesn't have an integrated voice chat system. Otherwise I don't think requiring a strategy is a bad thing.


If we're still talking NNI, floor 80 clears are basically a joke now. Voice chat certainly isn't required. So you have to get 5 clears to get a piece of gear instead of one- is that really a big deal? FFXI is an old game and many people that play now like to use voice chat and want hard content that challenges their non-PUG's. SE is trying to cater to both groups. But when people make the claim "all the content for all the people" what they are inevitably asking for is that all the content is easy enough to fit their playstyle- which is too easy for the people who are more organized and don't have an issue using Ventrilo. I mean seriously... Vent has a cell phone app now- it's not like these things aren't accessible.


Edited, Apr 20th 2013 9:57pm by ChaChaJaJa
#13 Apr 21 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:

If we're still talking NNI, floor 80 clears are basically a joke now. Voice chat certainly isn't required.


Typing out lamp orders slows ppl right down.

Also, I have no problem with content that requires voice chat - IF SE adds native voice chat support to the client.

For the record, I use voice chat with my friends. I'm not going to give out my friend's mumble server info to randoms. If needed, I could use skype. However, that's not the point. Its still crap design.



Edited, Apr 21st 2013 12:11pm by Olorinus
#14 Apr 21 2013 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Shusio wrote:
This makes me not miss ffxi at all.

When SE said this was released in a stat adjusted for the top players it turned me off from making a come back to see what the new expansions is all about. If its one thing SE knows what to do its building a huge gap between ppl and driving a stake inbetween them to make it even wider.


Except it doesn't take long at all to get Bayld gear?
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#15 Apr 21 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
For the record, I use voice chat with my friends. I'm not going to give out my friend's mumble server info to randoms. If needed, I could use skype. However, that's not the point. Its still crap design.


Then why can't you run NNI with your friends? I'm not trying to split hairs here, but why does everyone keep saying that everything in the game has to be able to be run solo or with PUG's? I agree that type of content should exist, but why does all content have to be that way? FFXI is over a decade old and has ALWAYS required playing nice with others in order to accomplish the "endgame" type content. Why are we still ******** about this a decade later? It's how the game has always been...

And as the previous poster mentioned, Bayld gear can be earned by a trained monkey and it certainly competes with some of the best gear in the game. I think you guys literally just aren't happy unless you have something to ***** about.

Edited, Apr 21st 2013 5:11pm by ChaChaJaJa
#16 Apr 21 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Then why can't you run NNI with your friends?


Not everyone has NNI-capable friends
#17 Apr 21 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not everyone has friends who play FFXI, or in their timezone or a endgame linkshell that'll drop everything to help you out either for that matter.
#18 Apr 21 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Default
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Shusio wrote:
This makes me not miss ffxi at all.

When SE said this was released in a stat adjusted for the top players it turned me off from making a come back to see what the new expansions is all about. If its one thing SE knows what to do its building a huge gap between ppl and driving a stake inbetween them to make it even wider.


Must be nice not having facts get in the way of things.

Like the facts of what can be accomplished with Skirmish and Bayld.

Then again, it's a lot more convenient to preach from the pulpit when you don't have to worry about facts.


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#19 Apr 21 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Default
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GLGunblade wrote:
Not everyone has friends who play FFXI, or in their timezone or a endgame linkshell that'll drop everything to help you out either for that matter.


When I came back in December after a 5 year break the highest job I had was a 75 WAR. I server jumped and didn't know anyone on my new server. I got a linkshell. And I made friends who play FFXI. And we played together for a few months. And we farmed gear for each other. And eventually we got comfortable enough playing together that we could try harder content like NNI. And the first few times we went we got crushed. But we persisted. And now we win regularly. It's not rocket science, [u]it's called doing instead of *************
#20 Apr 21 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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[quote]When I came back in December after a 5 year break the highest job I had was a 75 WAR. I server jumped and didn't know anyone on my new server. I got a linkshell. And I made friends who play FFXI. And we played together for a few months. And we farmed gear for each other. And eventually we got comfortable enough playing together that we could try harder content like NNI. And the first few times we went we got crushed. But we persisted. And now we win regularly. It's not rocket science, it's called doing instead of *****************

See, I imagine what ends up happening with most people that try doing this (at least, the ones that don't cheat to win):

They try repeatedly, fail repeatedly. If they ever win at all, it's hardly regular. One or more people gradually loses heart (or finds other people to go with who do utilize cheats and therefore win with actual consistency) and stops going with this group. This progresses to the point where they can no longer make a coherent group without having to shout for random scrubs in town anyway.

It's great that you got lucky with the people you met, but please don't make assumptions about everyone else
#21 Apr 21 2013 at 10:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regarding people who are having issues with Nyzul, are they capped on Abyssea gear already? Do they have good, sensible gear and weapons? Is the PT set up reasonable? Are the participants reasonably intelligent, capable of understanding objectives and following directions? If so then there's no reason why you can't obtain 1 NNI piece a week at the very least.

I think people just give up too quickly. NNI is something you can get better at. You may stink at first, but generally everybody has something they can improve for the next time. Experience and teamwork are important. Gear is important too. I don't think there's anything wrong with a logical progression from one event to the next, where finishing easier content helps you work your way up toward harder content. 6 sensible players should be able to fairly consistently clear floor 80, with or without voicechat.

We'll see about Delve. I'm hoping it's something that we can make a LS event out of.
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#22 Apr 22 2013 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
And as the previous poster mentioned, Bayld gear can be earned by a trained monkey and it certainly competes with some of the best gear in the game. I think you guys literally just aren't happy unless you have something to ***** about.

Whacking stumps isn't hard, no. It isn't exactly fun, either. But pray tell what are these people to do once the next tier arises and playing catch up isn't "trained monkey" material? Do you trust SE would adequately adjust Delve so more people can enjoy the future content after? Will you ***** because it's adjusted and those stupid monkeys actually get something done because you did it the "hard" way?

As Fynlar said, you got lucky. In the FFXI I played, a lot of endgame linkshells had probationary periods in which new members were basically the LS ***** until they met whatever criteria deemed them appropriate for loot. And if you found you didn't mesh with the shell for whatever reason? None of that carried over into the next foray, as such, you were basically the ***** all over again. We've all seen the people who suck up to leaders and get more things. We've also seen shells often being little more than loosely affiliated cliques where, if you don't fall into one, you're ****** all the same. Player politics suck. Demanding them simply to please your ego as a "high end player" sucks. You can try to feed us the line that you're all super good friends and there's never any drama ever, but that means **** all to the people who do struggle and only serves to remind them of their difficulties.

Now, I know this may blow your mind, but I'm of the belief that everyone should be able to experience all content. All their money went into it. It's not some exclusive club where your $12.95 is worth more than the other guy's. "But everyone has the same opportunity!" is a line that falls apart the moment you begin analyzing the varied RL situations of others. Sure, there are game mechanics issues like pathetic RNG loot systems that muddy the process, too. I'll give SE a nod for dabbling in individual treasure pools, as it cuts down on drama. The RNG aspect still sucks on 'em, though. Points systems need to be better dispersed throughout future content, as well, to essentially guarantee progress. Neo-Salvage lacks that in consistency. I'd argue NNI does, as well, due to the very nature of floor progression potentially ******** players. The F80 path also demands nearly 3 months of runs if you actually play multiple jobs across the gear sets. Granted, I also encourage people not to be one-job-wonders as the job system is one of the game's strengths, no matter how flawed the individual jobs may be.

At the very least, if you want hard ****, ask for difficulty modes at the launch of new content where the only benefit is an improved drop rate and titles. Scrubs you'll never play with anyway getting the same gear shouldn't be a concern.
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#23 Apr 22 2013 at 5:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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From Camiie's English to Non-BS-English Translator:

If you can't win it's because your gear is not good enough. Even if markedly better gear is not yet available, it's still your fault. There are never any issues with content or job balance on our end. It's not us. It's you. To quote that guy from Microsoft: "DEAL WITH IT."
#24 Apr 22 2013 at 5:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I read and reread the OP a few times, and it doesn't indicate that delve is going to require an alliance. I only get that it's an event where you enhance gear (probably through augments like in skirmish). Small group oriented material relies moreso on a good setup with respectable DD's supported with healers and buffers. A good group setup will typically compensate for people not having top of the line equipment, so I'm going to hold off judgment on the event and it's difficulty until it's actually released.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 8:09am by Melphina
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#25 Apr 22 2013 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
To quote that guy from Microsoft: "DEAL WITH IT."


To quote that guy formerly from Microsoft: "DEAL WITH IT."

ftfy
#26 Apr 22 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Diamondis wrote:
Camiie wrote:
To quote that guy from Microsoft: "DEAL WITH IT."


To quote that guy formerly from Microsoft: "DEAL WITH IT."

ftfy


I was going under the assumption that SE folks might not be aware that stupid dev people sometimes get fired.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 11:07am by Camiie
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