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#52 Jan 16 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


I'm going to make a lulzy analogy for the sake of making my point easier to make, but also because I like watching this scene.

In the movie clip above, it was originally planned to to be a melee battle between Jones and the swordsman in a flashy fight. However, Harrison(the actor) basically told the director he should just shoot the guy. What we got here is a no-contest battle scene done in the span of a second.

And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how ****** VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.
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#53 Jan 16 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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RavennofTitan wrote:
Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.


DA and Triple Attack only, or mostly, on 2h weapons? My character is gimp compared to you all that have been playing atleast 5 years. I am a WAR and see THF or NIN appear to be nonstop attacks, by the time I think about WS the mob is dead.
#54 Jan 16 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zymunn wrote:
RavennofTitan wrote:
Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.


DA and Triple Attack only, or mostly, on 2h weapons? My character is gimp compared to you all that have been playing at least 5 years. I am a WAR and see THF or NIN appear to be nonstop attacks, by the time I think about WS the mob is dead.


Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.
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#55 Jan 16 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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HeroMystic wrote:
Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how sh*tty VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.


Eh, each of those jobs does fill some kind of role in the current game and not everything in the game is a zerg event. I use my THF all the time for Treasure Hunter. DNC and PUP are excellent for farming in Dynamis. NIN is a KI-farming machine in Abyssea, and pretty much a requirement in any VW group. BLU is also sought after in VW, can do some cool things like solo Charged Whisker farm for Abyssea KI boxes, can switch between solid DD and dropping cures on people in an instant. There is still some stuff where you want a strong PLD tank (say, holding VW adds), and I wouldn't be shocked to see more in SoA content.

There's certainly a big place for zerg DDs too. But I'd say we really don't need even more when we already have multiple jobs that can fill that role with fairly little to differentiate them from each other besides the different weapon graphics. DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK - they can all basically do the same thing in a Zerg-style fight. Do we really need to try to cram the 1H into that role too?

The one job I feel a little bad for are DRGs (non-mythic) because they truly don't do much of anything that the other 2handers don't do better. At least a DNC or BST is king somewhere (Dynamis), a BLU or NIN is always wanted in VW, a THF will never be replaceable when you want their TH.

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#56 Jan 16 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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Camiie wrote:
Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.


I clearly said I am gimp. Why don't I have that pimp gear? I don't go to fight mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks so I have nothing to compare. I am not ashame to ask questions so I get a clearer picture.

Explain how appear to be nonstop attacks is the same thing as three digit damage numbers.
#57 Jan 16 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how sh*tty VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.


Eh, each of those jobs does fill some kind of role in the current game and not everything in the game is a zerg event. I use my THF all the time for Treasure Hunter. DNC and PUP are excellent for farming in Dynamis. NIN is a KI-farming machine in Abyssea, and pretty much a requirement in any VW group. BLU is also sought after in VW, can do some cool things like solo Charged Whisker farm for Abyssea KI boxes, can switch between solid DD and dropping cures on people in an instant. There is still some stuff where you want a strong PLD tank (say, holding VW adds), and I wouldn't be shocked to see more in SoA content.

There's certainly a big place for zerg DDs too. But I'd say we really don't need even more when we already have multiple jobs that can fill that role with fairly little to differentiate them from each other besides the different weapon graphics. DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK - they can all basically do the same thing in a Zerg-style fight. Do we really need to try to cram the 1H into that role too?

The one job I feel a little bad for are DRGs (non-mythic) because they truly don't do much of anything that the other 2handers don't do better. At least a DNC or BST is king somewhere (Dynamis), a BLU or NIN is always wanted in VW, a THF will never be replaceable when you want their TH.


The problem is that the entire game is all zerg fights.

Being good in dynamis currency farming or in abyssea is pointless.

In dynamis currency farming, pretty much every job walks out with the same currency, and you don't need to farm currency in dynamis in the first place if you can do the zerg fights. Do 1 run of 2 Arch Dynamis Lords, get 2-4 umbral marrow, sell them, now you have the same amount of gil you'd get currency farming for 2 months. And telling that BST was only mentioned in dynamis, because there's nowhere else they are useful. And after the completely unnecessary pet TH nerfs, that's not even true anymore. My flawlessly geared BST main walks out with the same amount of or less currency than my ******, non empyrian, aurore wearing PUP and BLU walk out with now, simply because they have TH 3. BST is the best at doing it half geared while drunk, but it's not the best at doing it well.

Abyssea is also pretty pointless. You go in for 2 days and hit 99. You go in for another couple days and have all the empyrian armor for that job. Now you're done with abyssea, and move on to the actual game. Oh my god, you're great at doing something temporary. That's like saying a job was good at levels 30-60. The only real exception is working on empyrian weapons, which again is easily done by any melee job at all, and any mage capable of curing, because of how overly powerful atma and cruor boosts are.

Then you go to the actual game. The reason you got to 99 and got empyrian armor in order to do. Dynamis Arch bosses; zerged. Voidwatch: zerged. Mages all get to go because of unique spells, but every weaponskill are done by a WAR, and one NIN there for katana and great katana, with the rest being Relic/Empyrian only zerg jobs. Legion; zerged. Neo Nyzul; zerged. Neo Salvage: two 2 handers and a healer. Mini zerged. Meeble Bosses; Zerged.

Saying "Some jobs are good at endgame zergs." is the same as saying, "Some jobs are good at the game." I'd like SE to fix that, but they really haven't been trying. So until SE makes that not the most effective tactic, I'd rather every job be make useful for it.

On another note, Who's betting the "1 hander dex/acc adjustment" and the "1 hander str/att adjustment" will be separate categories that you have to give up critical hit rate+ merits for?
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#58 Jan 16 2013 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
Zymunn wrote:
RavennofTitan wrote:
Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.


DA and Triple Attack only, or mostly, on 2h weapons? My character is gimp compared to you all that have been playing at least 5 years. I am a WAR and see THF or NIN appear to be nonstop attacks, by the time I think about WS the mob is dead.


Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.


Could you imagine if SE made some type of adjustment that allowed these single handed jobs to have a higher damage value on high level mobs.maybe give a max level job access to some type of advanced leveling system...so they could improve on it.


(and not impact the rest of the game, which is pretty @#%^ing balanced.)


Edited, Jan 17th 2013 12:47am by rdmcandie
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#59 Jan 17 2013 at 2:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zymunn wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.


I clearly said I am gimp. Why don't I have that pimp gear? I don't go to fight mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks so I have nothing to compare. I am not ashame to ask questions so I get a clearer picture.

Explain how appear to be nonstop attacks is the same thing as three digit damage numbers.


When they are doing 0 to 20 damage at most and WS for 100 to 200 damage if they are lucky. They will not be attacking non-stop like you see in abyssea since they won't have atmacites or atmas.
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#60 Jan 17 2013 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Could you imagine if SE made some type of adjustment that allowed these single handed jobs to have a higher damage value on high level mobs.maybe give a max level job access to some type of advanced leveling system...so they could improve on it.


(and not impact the rest of the game, which is pretty @#%^ing balanced.)



You'd get the same effect with high/max level job traits for those specific jobs.
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#61 Jan 17 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how sh*tty VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.


Eh, each of those jobs does fill some kind of role in the current game and not everything in the game is a zerg event. I use my THF all the time for Treasure Hunter. DNC and PUP are excellent for farming in Dynamis. NIN is a KI-farming machine in Abyssea, and pretty much a requirement in any VW group. BLU is also sought after in VW, can do some cool things like solo Charged Whisker farm for Abyssea KI boxes, can switch between solid DD and dropping cures on people in an instant. There is still some stuff where you want a strong PLD tank (say, holding VW adds), and I wouldn't be shocked to see more in SoA content.

There's certainly a big place for zerg DDs too. But I'd say we really don't need even more when we already have multiple jobs that can fill that role with fairly little to differentiate them from each other besides the different weapon graphics. DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK - they can all basically do the same thing in a Zerg-style fight. Do we really need to try to cram the 1H into that role too?

The one job I feel a little bad for are DRGs (non-mythic) because they truly don't do much of anything that the other 2handers don't do better. At least a DNC or BST is king somewhere (Dynamis), a BLU or NIN is always wanted in VW, a THF will never be replaceable when you want their TH.



STOP MAKING SENSE. This is the time to complain apples aren't oranges and that people who prefer oranges are really the fruit industry not making apples equal. We must now make apples equal. It will be better when we force choices on players. You'll see. At that point they will chose what fruit is available first.
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#62 Jan 17 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?
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#63 Jan 17 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?


Pretty much.

If we didn't, why have multiple jobs at all? Why not just give everyone everything then everyone will be able to participate all the time in any role they want!.

But then again SE also implemented a wicked awesome system in this game, really unlike any other MMO...we can change jobs depending on what we feel like playing.
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#64 Jan 17 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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louispv wrote:
The problem is that the entire game is all zerg fights.

Being good in dynamis currency farming or in abyssea is pointless.

In dynamis currency farming, pretty much every job walks out with the same currency, and you don't need to farm currency in dynamis in the first place if you can do the zerg fights. Do 1 run of 2 Arch Dynamis Lords, get 2-4 umbral marrow, sell them, now you have the same amount of gil you'd get currency farming for 2 months.


Not everyone is interested in doing an Alliance size event requiring LS time commitments and scheduled playtime to do their money farming. A solo Dyna farmer can still make a very reasonable amount of money, for an event they can hop into by themselves whenever the mood strikes. That's a pretty big difference.

Your perception of everyone who plays FFXI having the goal to run scheduled ADL and Legion events for elite gear and huge money is really skewed. Most of the subscription money does NOT come from this relatively small (and disproportionately loud on message boards) group. There are way more people than you seem to understand who are more focused on things like Abyssea, Dynamis, running around and finishing story missions and exploring new areas (this is likely to make a resurgence with SoA), interested in Play as a Monster, etc.

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Then you go to the actual game. The reason you got to 99 and got empyrian armor in order to do. Dynamis Arch bosses; zerged. Voidwatch: zerged. Mages all get to go because of unique spells, but every weaponskill are done by a WAR, and one NIN there for katana and great katana, with the rest being Relic/Empyrian only zerg jobs. Legion; zerged. Neo Nyzul; zerged. Neo Salvage: two 2 handers and a healer. Mini zerged. Meeble Bosses; Zerged.


ADL and Legion... OK, in large alliance-scaled content on hard mobs, the traditional power DDs (25% of the jobs in the game if you're going by 2handers + MNK) are desired for DD slots. If this is all you want to do in FFXI, more power to you. And if that's the case, maybe you want to consider using a 2hander!

Neo Nyzul is a poor example since it's a particularly cookie-cutter event, and frankly that's more because most of the player base are just afraid to deviate from strategy and not because they understand game mechanics (you really mean to tell me a good BLU can't crush Neo Nyzul?). This is the same as people who would sit at 5/6 party shouting in Jeuno and refuse to do the CoP Promy fights without a SMN because, dammit, they read a guide (by a SMN!) that said you need to use a SMN or you won't win! By the way, in Neo Nyzul you can also wave goodbye to all non-SCH mages, COR BRD, and RNG. None of this really has to do with 1h versus 2h damage calculation.

Salvage and Meebles have some flexibility, you really don't have to do those in a 2hander only formula. These are lowman events where you can run with a few friends. Feel free to argue that a 2h DD strategy is the min/max "best" way to do them, but even supposing that's true, the "non-optimal" setups can do this content just fine.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 12:06pm by Anza
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#65 Jan 17 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?


Pretty much.

If we didn't, why have multiple jobs at all? Why not just give everyone everything then everyone will be able to participate all the time in any role they want!.

But then again SE also implemented a wicked awesome system in this game, really unlike any other MMO...we can change jobs depending on what we feel like playing.


So it's impossible to follow different paths to reach the same point? Two jobs can't be markedly different yet achieve a similar result in the end?
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#66 Jan 17 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?


Pretty much.

If we didn't, why have multiple jobs at all? Why not just give everyone everything then everyone will be able to participate all the time in any role they want!.

But then again SE also implemented a wicked awesome system in this game, really unlike any other MMO...we can change jobs depending on what we feel like playing.


So it's impossible to follow different paths to reach the same point? Two jobs can't be markedly different yet achieve a similar result in the end?


Impossible is quite the stretch but it is less optimal and less efficient.

I don't really want to pull it out, but I am going to anyway.

RDM melee (collective groan) is probably the most prime example of required limitations, that result in less efficiency, but still allow for success. As a RDM I feel confident if I were in a DD capacity to say I can pull 70% of a Mainstream DD. Obviously I can not compare to one, but I am not that bad off. One thing I do is support 100% better than them. Granted the more support I do the less effective my damage is, lets say I lose 20%.

My RDM is now about half as effective as a WAR in a DD position, but providing 100% more support than that DD ever will...

What happens if we boost RDM to be a comparable DD to WAR...well WAR suddenly become as worthless job. Why bring a job that does the same amount of damage as a RDM, but is unable to support even half as well as that RDM.

Or how about RDM healing, Id wager RDM is about 80% as efficient as a WHM, but it is going to be able to provide more damage via nuking. However as a RDM's nuking goes up its support goes down lets say a RDM in a nuking capacity effectively supports @ 50% of a WHM's capability. It will still provide more elemental damage, but it isn't keeping up in support.

Lets say ***** it and let RDM heal just as well as a WHM, Suddenly WHM becomes a lot less desirable. If incoming damage is low RDM can nuke, if incoming damage is high, the RDM can heal.

And suddenly you kill off the dedicated jobs (which there are more off) and hybrids become the go to options. The RDM's the BLU's the DNC's the PUP's the SMN's the SCH's. The jobs that can simply do a whole lot more at any given time. Why bring a job that can do one thing, if it is only doing that one thing as well as a job that can do a bunch of things.

This is why jobs which can do more than one task are limited in other tasks. If they were not, then what would be the point of playing anything else...
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#67 Jan 17 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem is not that jobs that use one-handed weapons aren't doing "100%" of the damage of heavy DDs, it's that their utility isn't utility enough to make up for the MASSIVE damage dealing gap between them and heavy damage dealing jobs. Either their utility needs a massive upgrade or their damage needs a significant upgrade. I don't particularly care which, but as long as WAR/SAM/DRK are desirable in almost every event while other jobs are undesirable in almost every event - it is not balanced.

That is what the playerbase wants, not to -never have to level another job- but to have their job be desirable in roughly the same number of REAL ENDGAME events as the current handful of uber desirable jobs. People understand that if RDM did 100% of the damage of WAR plus could stun, CC, buff, heal, then WAR would not be desirable. But if RDMs unique capabilities are only considered say 10% useful and they can only deal 40% damage, then they will not be given slots in parties - as we currently see today.

So yeah, "rdm can do this and that in addition to being able to deal subpar damage" but if on pretty much every mob/event that drops top grade items their unique/non-damaging abilities are useless, then it isn't balanced.

Having some jobs that are essentially only useful on solo content (BST) is not balanced. Balance needs to mean "balanced on top tier content." What players want is not to never ever level anything but one job, but for events to have use for more than just Uber DD and Uber healers and 99 empy BRD. If you want to play support/hybrid/pet jobs, there should be a place for you that isn't sitting alone in a corner of dynamis farming coins.There should be jobs with a lower barrier to entry (in terms of needing super weapons), and there should be room for more utility.

But people in here arguing "one handed jobs shouldn't be able to do anything but TP feed mobs because they have utility skills" are being disingenuous because "utility skills" that aren't in demand enough to get you a party slot aren't really much of a utility, are they. It also ignores the fact that heavy DDs also have utility skills (Angon? DRK Stun? These things do exist)

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 10:16am by Olorinus
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#68 Jan 17 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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But people in here arguing "one handed jobs shouldn't be able to do anything but TP feed mobs because they have utility skills" are being disingenuous because "utility skills" that aren't in demand enough to get you a party slot aren't really much of a utility, are they. It also ignores the fact that heavy DDs also have utility skills (Angon? DRK Stun? These things do exist)



I don't think anyone is arguing against the damage gap being closed. But all jobs shouldn't be equal either. You need to have some distinction. if a PLD could hit as hard as a WAR with a 1H weapon, and then also have the ability to heal and tank why bring a WAR?

Without distinction there is no decision, you go with the job that is the best in the most things, if everything was matched up to parity everyone would be running around as RDM.
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#69 Jan 17 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
louispv wrote:
The problem is that the entire game is all zerg fights.

Being good in dynamis currency farming or in abyssea is pointless.

In dynamis currency farming, pretty much every job walks out with the same currency, and you don't need to farm currency in dynamis in the first place if you can do the zerg fights. Do 1 run of 2 Arch Dynamis Lords, get 2-4 umbral marrow, sell them, now you have the same amount of gil you'd get currency farming for 2 months.


Not everyone is interested in doing an Alliance size event requiring LS time commitments and scheduled playtime to do their money farming. A solo Dyna farmer can still make a very reasonable amount of money, for an event they can hop into by themselves whenever the mood strikes. That's a pretty big difference.

Your perception of everyone who plays FFXI having the goal to run scheduled ADL and Legion events for elite gear and huge money is really skewed. Most of the subscription money does NOT come from this relatively small (and disproportionately loud on message boards) group. There are way more people than you seem to understand who are more focused on things like Abyssea, Dynamis, running around and finishing story missions and exploring new areas (this is likely to make a resurgence with SoA), interested in Play as a Monster, etc.

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Then you go to the actual game. The reason you got to 99 and got empyrian armor in order to do. Dynamis Arch bosses; zerged. Voidwatch: zerged. Mages all get to go because of unique spells, but every weaponskill are done by a WAR, and one NIN there for katana and great katana, with the rest being Relic/Empyrian only zerg jobs. Legion; zerged. Neo Nyzul; zerged. Neo Salvage: two 2 handers and a healer. Mini zerged. Meeble Bosses; Zerged.


ADL and Legion... OK, in large alliance-scaled content on hard mobs, the traditional power DDs (25% of the jobs in the game if you're going by 2handers + MNK) are desired for DD slots. If this is all you want to do in FFXI, more power to you. And if that's the case, maybe you want to consider using a 2hander!

Neo Nyzul is a poor example since it's a particularly cookie-cutter event, and frankly that's more because most of the player base are just afraid to deviate from strategy and not because they understand game mechanics (you really mean to tell me a good BLU can't crush Neo Nyzul?). This is the same as people who would sit at 5/6 party shouting in Jeuno and refuse to do the CoP Promy fights without a SMN because, dammit, they read a guide (by a SMN!) that said you need to use a SMN or you won't win! By the way, in Neo Nyzul you can also wave goodbye to all non-SCH mages, COR BRD, and RNG. None of this really has to do with 1h versus 2h damage calculation.


Winner winner chicken dinner.

One of the 'Zam Thief posters even provides his evidence of success with NNI as a Thief. The event is impossible until you do it and then you realize it's just floor luck instead of drop rate luck.
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#70 Jan 17 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
The problem is not that jobs that use one-handed weapons aren't doing "100%" of the damage of heavy DDs, it's that their utility isn't utility enough to make up for the MASSIVE damage dealing gap between them and heavy damage dealing jobs. Either their utility needs a massive upgrade or their damage needs a significant upgrade. I don't particularly care which, but as long as WAR/SAM/DRK are desirable in almost every event while other jobs are undesirable in almost every event - it is not balanced.


So where is this great amount of game content where so many jobs are undesirable?
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#71 Jan 17 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Having some jobs that are essentially only useful on solo content (BST) is not balanced. Balance needs to mean "balanced on top tier content."


Why does balance NEED to mean that? I'm fine with balance meaning different jobs excelling in different events/group sizes/whatever. It's not like the game limits you from leveling multiple jobs.

Specifically regarding BST, I've played this game since 2004, and in that time BST has ALWAYS been seen by the majority of players as a primarily solo-focused job. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's the precise reason a lot of people who leveled BST chose to level the job (many of whom might also have leveled a traditional 2h DD for party situations). Anyone who levels BST expecting to be in demand for endgame group events simply failed to do the most basic of research and I blame the player, not the developers.

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But people in here arguing "one handed jobs shouldn't be able to do anything but TP feed mobs because they have utility skills" are being disingenuous because "utility skills" that aren't in demand enough to get you a party slot aren't really much of a utility, are they. It also ignores the fact that heavy DDs also have utility skills (Angon? DRK Stun? These things do exist)


I've said it before, but precisely WHICH 1h jobs are people complaining don't get a fair shake and therefore necessitate adjusting 1h weapon damage?

* THF DOES get invites (and always has) to lots of high end content due to Treasure Hunter and respectable spike damage.
* BLU doesn't rely on its 1h weapons to be able to dish out very good damage from spells, and brings boatloads of additional utility from non-damage spells (sleepga, cures, etc.).
* BST is very intentionally not designed to do most of its damage through 1h weapons since it has a pet, with its own advantages and disadvantages (lacking great zerg ability when your damage is split between player and pet being one of them).
* DNC in no way deserves to pump out WAR/DRK/SAM level damage, because it can drop massive cures. Like rdmcandie said, if DNC could DD as well as a 2hander while retaining these abilities, you kill the 2h jobs.
* PLD (and soon RUN) were never designed to be DDs, they are tanks. The question of enmity mechanics needing changes to allow tanking to work like it probably should is a very different (and valid) discussion, but it really doesn't affect the question of 1h/2h damage calculation.

So... maybe NIN has an argument here? And that's it???

And even speaking as a NIN, I'm not entirely convinced. I've still managed to feel plenty useful on my NIN frequently throughout the last couple years. It's basically one of the kings of Abyssea thanks to red procs and atma, it's a must for any VW party due to ninjutsu (and to a lesser extent katana) procs, and it's a very good lowman/solo job. It does not bother me in the least that people would rather use a WAR or DRK for a DD slot in Alliance events.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 8:40pm by Anza
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#72 Jan 17 2013 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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Rdm has it right the gap needs to be closed and events need to be better designed so it not just zerg or gtfo. Really whats the point of utility if new events don't even support it or you have to give up most of your utility just so you can hit procs(blu).
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#73 Jan 18 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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RavennofTitan wrote:
Rdm has it right the gap needs to be closed and events need to be better designed so it not just zerg or gtfo. Really whats the point of utility if new events don't even support it or you have to give up most of your utility just so you can hit procs(blu).


Exactly. There needs to be a refined vision on utility. I am sure Legion would be a great place...if it didn't have a time limit. The current endgame is designed around timers. You NEED to Zerg Legion because if you don't...you time out. Game over. Your strategy is to kill the mobs as fast as possible. Period. This means lots of DD, lots of damage mitigation (Stunning SCH's) lots of buffs (cycling BRD's Embravas and Cors.)

Anything to maximize the damage dealers.

What should exist is an untimed event that allows every job ability to participate. IE. Remove the time cap. The only benefit optimal would have is finishing faster so you can do more events. Meanwhile many many combinations of things could still win, all be it slower. Just like it was in Sky, Sea, Kings, ToAU, Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Nyzul.

The game should not be designed for optimal, it should be designed for progression, and allow players to grow, not required to be grown to play. But it most certainly should not be designed around every job being the exact same just because at present Arbitrary battle clocks are our challenge...not the content itself.

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#74 Jan 18 2013 at 4:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Change Legion time limit to 90 minutes, take 5 minutes off (down to 30min) every time someone dies.

Just as vicious, but fair. If something wipes 2/3rds of your PUG alliance you're screwed, but if you have twelve competent and solid people who could clear it in 60 minutes you've got some serious potential.

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 2:58am by Raelix
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#75 Jan 18 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anza wrote:

* BLU doesn't rely on its 1h weapons to be able to dish out very good damage from spells, and brings boatloads of additional utility from non-damage spells (sleepga, cures, etc.).


In any event where you aren't getting boatloads of temps/refresh our better damaging spells are ridiculously expensive. And they don't do as much damage as you think they do against high-end mobs. Most serious targets can't be slept. We can't cure anyone outside our party natively. We also have limited spell slots and a timer for switching spells, so we lose a lot of utility we might otherwise have.

Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
if a Blue Mage were to come to Legion (or Provenance for that matter), their best best to do well damage wise is to forego spell damage and focus primarily on their damage with Chant du Cygne, because THAT's where their best damage would be coming from.


Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
If any Legion group is bringing you as Blue Mage, then I would assume that either they don't know just how inefficient Blu is over two-handed DD jobs, or they have so many people there that they can compensate for you on Blu, because Blu is one of the worst melee jobs for Legion by far.


Anza wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Having some jobs that are essentially only useful on solo content (BST) is not balanced. Balance needs to mean "balanced on top tier content."


Why does balance NEED to mean that? I'm fine with balance meaning different jobs excelling in different events/group sizes/whatever. It's not like the game limits you from leveling multiple jobs.


So you disagree with everyone who says "X job shouldn't be able to damage well because then Y job wouldn't be wanted?" Just wondering. Because if it doesn't matter if a whole crapload of jobs are never wanted on group content, why not spin things around. Make BST deal godly, hateless damage and leave WARs to be the king of procs in abyssea. After all if they are the best at one, very limited thing, why should they expect to be wanted in group content? That's what you're essentially defending. If a job has even one tiny niche the playerbase shouldn't expect any balance from the devs at all, ever, or for group content to ever be designed in a way that doesn't render your job useless.

That whole "you can level multiple jobs" argument is asinine, especially when the barrier to entry to any DD job for serious content is extremely high. If you're a regular player you aren't going to have the time to gear out more than a couple jobs. Multiple jobs isn't an excuse for crappy balance.

Anza wrote:
Specifically regarding BST, I've played this game since 2004, and in that time BST has ALWAYS been seen by the majority of players as a primarily solo-focused job. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's the precise reason a lot of people who leveled BST chose to level the job (many of whom might also have leveled a traditional 2h DD for party situations). Anyone who levels BST expecting to be in demand for endgame group events simply failed to do the most basic of research and I blame the player, not the developers.


It's been seen as a solo job because it's not desired in group content. I didn't level BST expecting it to be desired at endgame, I leveled it because I enjoy the job designing a game so that players get punished for playing the jobs they like is bogus. It's also not balanced. Blame players for leveling jobs if you like, but the simple fact of the matter is, all jobs should be roughly equally useful in group content. That's currently not the case, and the fact that it is so is a design flaw, which is not the player's fault. Just because a job is broken doesn't mean the developers should never fix it.



Edited, Jan 18th 2013 10:18am by Olorinus
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#76 Jan 18 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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What's funny is that in my WotG static, Faithful Falcorr was doing more damage than my decently geared WAR when we were fighting mobs in Castle Oz. Smiley: glare
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