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#27 Jan 14 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
ImmortalAlchemist wrote:
catwho wrote:
Well, most BLM builds stacked INT and MAB like crazy anyway. That much isn't going to change.


I only see it changing equipment decisions where a person is deciding between two pieces where the INT outweighs the MAB in terms of the new ratio. But these values given in the developers post aren't set in stone, but I do like the direction they are going.


I remember getting my super shiny new Shadow Trewss from Einherjar, and getting a pitying look from a min/maxer along with a tell that "you know the mahatma slops are still better, right?"

Well yes, in the damage formula, they were technically more powerful. The difference was no more than 5-6 points of damage on most nukes. But *******[/i] did I look stylish nuking. Smiley: laugh

Edited, Jan 14th 2013 3:01pm by catwho


Nothing wrong with being styling while you nuke. I've seen players back in the day forgo pants that gave useful stats just so they could keep their subligar on Smiley: laugh
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#28 Jan 14 2013 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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But taru can't be stylish. Their pants are like two funnels taped together. D:
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#29 Jan 14 2013 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not so bad when your macro gear is ugly. But when your idle gear is ugly that's a problem. Nares Trews and Manasa Chasuble immediately come to mind.
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#30 Jan 14 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Why do they insist on fixing defense and 1-handed calculations through merits?


Because everything is generally "fine" till end-game? You know, after you're done leveling?


It's better to simply fix what's broken than leave it broken and force players to fix it themselves through merits. I betcha they make you give up the opportunity to merit something highly beneficial in exchange for having 1-handers simply not suck. To me merits should focus on enhancing what we already have rather than fixing broken calculations or mechanics.

Doesn't take much to just add a new merit slot, heck it is likely easier than going through the jumbled coding that this team inherited. I am all good with merits to be quite honest. **** people have been asking for more stuff to merit because they have been sitting on capped merits for so long. Now SE has suggested making more merit stuff and people don't like it...

No wonder they hate changing this game, damned if they do, damned if they don't.


I'm not really concerned with how much work it takes. SE is a big boy company charging a big boy price for their MMO. They can put their big boy pants on and get the hard things done if they really want to.

People have indeed been asking for more things to merit. I have my doubts that this is what anyone outside the dev team had in mind. To me, merits are supposed to be about enhancements and growth beyond the level cap. I don't think they should be used as a crutch for gimped jobs and lazy/inept devs.
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#31 Jan 14 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Why do they insist on fixing defense and 1-handed calculations through merits?


Because everything is generally "fine" till end-game? You know, after you're done leveling?


It's better to simply fix what's broken than leave it broken and force players to fix it themselves through merits. I betcha they make you give up the opportunity to merit something highly beneficial in exchange for having 1-handers simply not suck. To me merits should focus on enhancing what we already have rather than fixing broken calculations or mechanics.

Doesn't take much to just add a new merit slot, heck it is likely easier than going through the jumbled coding that this team inherited. I am all good with merits to be quite honest. **** people have been asking for more stuff to merit because they have been sitting on capped merits for so long. Now SE has suggested making more merit stuff and people don't like it...

No wonder they hate changing this game, damned if they do, damned if they don't.


This. I wonder despite Camiie's ******** if they realized that most of the complaints tend to gravitate around end-game..not leveling, I also wonder if they realize that "overall fixing" of a mechanic affects more than just end-game. It's not "completely broken" or nothing would work at all in any application, but I'm pretty **** sure enmity for example worked just fine while I was leveling my PLD prior to the whole "sit on your *** and level in Abyssea" craze...yet end-game, go to the OF and I wonder what people tend to complain about and using which examples?

Unless I'm mistaken and 99% of the ********** about "broken mechanics" isn't end-game related, then by all means, SE should fix everything even though things work as they should except for end-game..where the complaints are about, which is why "fixing through merits" makes perfect sense since at that point is when people are complaining and when merits would actually do more toward the overall situation at that point. They can obviously change algorithms to their hearts content but it doesn't mean sh*t when it's only one portion of the game that's "broken"...even Matsui basically agrees, they want new players but they're focusing on people who are done leveling. Read: Where the issues are.

Camiie wrote:

To me, merits are supposed to be about enhancements and growth beyond the level cap. I don't think they should be used as a crutch for gimped jobs and lazy/inept devs.


To SE, they see it as another way of trying to fix things. SE, the "big boy company", the company making the game you're playing and ******** about looking into solutions through systems they've created. What's funny is, a lot of MMOs out there uses Talent trees to fix balance issues and no one complains lol.





Edited, Jan 14th 2013 5:07pm by Theonehio
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#32 Jan 14 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Giving new merits is one thing. Fixing a problem through merits is another. Ultimately, when I think FFXI and merits, I see players being forced to make a choice, and usually they're not choices people want to make. If you dump your stat points into STR/DEX, you'll never be as good of a mage as someone who did INT/MND. Some might argue that that is the point, but in a game where we can be 20 classes on one character, it's just dumb. In a lot of cases, when people wind up talking about more merits, it's in the context of raising or even removing category caps. Occasionally you'll get suggestions like meritable Fast Cast, hMP, and so on, and those are all well and good. But there's also a good chance SE would dump those in the Other category and it'd become a choice against higher crit rate and the like. And given the merit system has its share of "no actual choice" in some merits being blatantly inferior to others, their stubborn insistence of not acceding to player demand has been historically irksome. And in the end, it's a lot easier to balance under the assumption of no or full merits than it is someone who's all over the place in the grand scheme.

The attempt to even spin this as "stupid players want stupid things to make the game even stupider" is utter bullsquat.

Edited, Jan 14th 2013 8:37pm by Seriha
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#33Zymunn, Posted: Jan 14 2013 at 8:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Want to be sure I am understanding this. A melee job would want the str/dex and mage int/mnd. No brainer. So if you are going to be leveling a mage job, after having leveled whatever melee, you are screwed right? Cause there is no option to undo merits.
#34 Jan 14 2013 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zymunn wrote:
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dump your stat points into STR/DEX, you'll never be as good of a mage as someone who did INT/MND.
Want to be sure I am understanding this. A melee job would want the str/dex and mage int/mnd. No brainer. So if you are going to be leveling a mage job, after having leveled whatever melee, you are screwed right? Cause there is no option to undo merits.
The issue is you can't have the best WHM, BLM, WAR, and THF in the game all on the same character.

Redo-ing merits is an option if you want to change your focus (DD -> Mage, for example), but the cost is too high that you can't completely switch in one sitting and making frequent stat merit changes an impossible measure.

I have no problem with merits. I believe because we can have every job at lv20, that is precisely why merits need to be used for focusing, not that meriting stats really makes or breaks a job.... weapon skills are a different matter though- unlike meriting STR, not having Resolution at 5/5 on DRK will put you miles behind others. I'm glad SE is adjusting these merits.


Zymunn wrote:
Endgame is not the entire game. Get over the fact you have nothing to level anymore and work with what you have. You may not care nor want new, returning, players. That "big boy" company however wants and needs those players.
Blaming others gets us nowhere. If you don't want to take about "endgame", then nominate a topic to discuss because after reading your post, I have no clue what you're interested in.
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#35 Jan 14 2013 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I'm saying is halting character growth "just because" is dumb. FFXI would not implode if everyone had STR/DEX/VIT/AGI/INT/MND/CHR merits maxed at all once as instances of cross-stat calculations are rather minimal (and I'll forever make the case the game needs to be more hybrid friendly). And sure, while some people will eventually max again, those who still identify themselves as certain "mains" will still be able to be good as they always were (and better if job specific merits opened up).

The common counter against this idea tends to be the snowflake defense. Like, that guy who does nothing but play PUP all the time will be super seriously insulted that some other guy who just leveled it could dare be as good with equal gear and stronger merit flexibility. Far as my personal play went before I unsubbed, I bounced a lot among WAR, THF, DRK, RDM, BLU, and WHM. Pretty much everything but CHR would've been handy for me and it's not like I was terribad at these jobs. Maybe not optimally geared for obvious reasons of diversity and not striving to be a lootwhore amongst those I worked with, but you can basically get the idea that I wasn't locked to one character archetype like tank/melee/support. But when character growth stops in an MMO, it can easily translate to game over. And that's perhaps the true concept of endgame, not spamming VW, doing Legion, or whatever, because growth can come in many flavors.
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#36 Jan 14 2013 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
People have indeed been asking for more things to merit. I have my doubts that this is what anyone outside the dev team had in mind. To me, merits are supposed to be about enhancements and growth beyond the level cap. I don't think they should be used as a crutch for gimped jobs and lazy/inept devs.


I agree completely, there are a lot of things that they do that are just lazy, and inept at times. I was just merely pointing out one of the likely reasons they did it. 1) it addresses players concerns of the 1H DD gap, and 2) allows players to invest their stagnant merit points. To them it seems like a win win, and realistically it address two of the issues players had with the game.

So I personally don't get the gripe towards it, its not like the DD gap is really noticeable on anything of level, its only when you step into endgame where the gap is apparent. So really it makes sense to adjust it like this, it doesn't impact any of the content at all, except for that level 75 (or possibly 99) and up. **** most of us will have it capped in the first day and be back to ******** about our stagnant merits again a few weeks later.

I dunno I like the change, another thing to merit...meh. The only way Id be ****** off is if they tied it into the "Other Combat" Category with crit rate and such. (which knowing SE will likely be the destination)
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#37Lonix, Posted: Jan 15 2013 at 2:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Just a question, WHO complains about DRK when its a job nobody ever uses?
#38 Jan 15 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:

This is like fixing the fact that no one uses Scythes by making Resolution a two hit skill and adding a four hit 'Scythe Resolution'. Sure, the underused weapon is now a logical choice but it doesn't actually change the playstyle of the job and the net result is just a nerf. It's like New Coke, you get a new flavor but lose the old one that most everyone was happy with.



Two Sentence Summary History of Job Updates in FFXI
All changes have a net result being a nerf.

This is what happens when jobs X, Y, and Z complain enough to the developers that their damage isn't exactly the same as jobs A, B and C (but conveniently leaving out what jobs A, B, and C don't have in the form of other abilities, magic, stances, etc.)



Just a question, WHO complains about DRK when its a job nobody ever uses?

And as I said before in regards to nerfing as much as I hate it, I am sure SE don't just nerf because a few people complain 24/7 about it. I am sure they do their own testing.


Just like they thoroughly test things before introducing them to the game, right?


Lonix wrote:

As much as I hate nerfs especially when DRK is my next DD job to level, simply saying complain enough and SE will nerf doesnt add up to me.


Job nerfs since 2003 say otherwise.

Lonix wrote:

With DRK it really is a job I rarely see anyone use.


The number of Rag/other DRK in VW, NNI and other content say otherwise. If you really are claiming you only see DRK rarely, I doubt you play this game anymore.


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#39 Jan 15 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Lonix wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:

This is like fixing the fact that no one uses Scythes by making Resolution a two hit skill and adding a four hit 'Scythe Resolution'. Sure, the underused weapon is now a logical choice but it doesn't actually change the playstyle of the job and the net result is just a nerf. It's like New Coke, you get a new flavor but lose the old one that most everyone was happy with.



Two Sentence Summary History of Job Updates in FFXI
All changes have a net result being a nerf.

This is what happens when jobs X, Y, and Z complain enough to the developers that their damage isn't exactly the same as jobs A, B and C (but conveniently leaving out what jobs A, B, and C don't have in the form of other abilities, magic, stances, etc.)



Just a question, WHO complains about DRK when its a job nobody ever uses?

And as I said before in regards to nerfing as much as I hate it, I am sure SE don't just nerf because a few people complain 24/7 about it. I am sure they do their own testing. As much as I hate nerfs especially when DRK is my next DD job to level, simply saying complain enough and SE will nerf doesnt add up to me.

With DRK it really is a job I rarely see anyone use.


It may just be something that's on your server, but on Lakshmi and I would imagine most other servers, Dark Knight has become a rather bandwagon-esque job due to Resolution. Much like how dual-wielding Axe/Ridill Warriors were back before the two-handed update and Samurai were back a few years ago. Dark Knights now are a dime a dozen, and Ragnaroks are pretty much the most common Relic being made nowadays. In my linkshell alone I know of at least three people that are working on one right now, and I know of several others doing one too. When it comes to current end-game events (Legion, final Tier Voidwatch, etc), Dark Knights are pretty much THE melee jobs being sought after first.

As for them not nerfing jobs because a few people were complaining, I have to disagree. A fair number of the nerfs in the past (Initial TP return from WS nerf, Ranger nerf, etc) have all been due to player outcry, predominantly from players not playing those jobs at the time, and feeling their abilities too cheap. So right now, most player outcry that Dark Knight is broken and whatnot are from non-Dark Knights that don't want to level the job, but still find it too overpowered in comparison to other DD jobs.

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 9:31am by Vlorsutes
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#40CelestianNinja, Posted: Jan 15 2013 at 10:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is so true & sad to me at least. DRK in FFXI Lore was the hardest hitting melee in the game. It was when it came out then became nerfed to the point that leveling it to 75 took months cause no one wanted it. Every time DRK takes back its rightful place in the game another melee has to complain. I say know your role, after all that is why we have different jobs in the game.
#41 Jan 15 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Why do they insist on fixing defense and 1-handed calculations through merits?


Because everything is generally "fine" till end-game? You know, after you're done leveling?


It's better to simply fix what's broken than leave it broken and force players to fix it themselves through merits. I betcha they make you give up the opportunity to merit something highly beneficial in exchange for having 1-handers simply not suck. To me merits should focus on enhancing what we already have rather than fixing broken calculations or mechanics.

Doesn't take much to just add a new merit slot, heck it is likely easier than going through the jumbled coding that this team inherited. I am all good with merits to be quite honest. **** people have been asking for more stuff to merit because they have been sitting on capped merits for so long. Now SE has suggested making more merit stuff and people don't like it...

No wonder they hate changing this game, damned if they do, damned if they don't.


This. I wonder despite Camiie's ****************

Can we at least try to have a mature discussion? I know you dislike me since we tend to disagree a lot, but I'm trying to be civil here.

[quote]if they realized that most of the complaints tend to gravitate around end-game..not leveling, I also wonder if they realize that "overall fixing" of a mechanic affects more than just end-game. It's not "completely broken" or nothing would work at all in any application, but I'm pretty **** sure enmity for example worked just fine while I was leveling my PLD prior to the whole "sit on your *** and level in Abyssea" craze...yet end-game, go to the OF and I wonder what people tend to complain about and using which examples?

Unless I'm mistaken and 99% of the ********** about "broken mechanics" isn't end-game related, then by all means, SE should fix everything even though things work as they should except for end-game..where the complaints are about, which is why "fixing through merits" makes perfect sense since at that point is when people are complaining and when merits would actually do more toward the overall situation at that point. They can obviously change algorithms to their hearts content but it doesn't mean sh*t when it's only one portion of the game that's "broken"...even Matsui basically agrees, they want new players but they're focusing on people who are done leveling. Read: Where the issues are.

Camiie wrote:

To me, merits are supposed to be about enhancements and growth beyond the level cap. I don't think they should be used as a crutch for gimped jobs and lazy/inept devs.


To SE, they see it as another way of trying to fix things. SE, the "big boy company", the company making the game you're playing and ******** about looking into solutions through systems they've created. What's funny is, a lot of MMOs out there uses Talent trees to fix balance issues and no one complains lol.


You're really missing my point. They want me to spend my time and merits just to (potentially) make 1-handed weapons relevant. Shouldn't they simply BE relevant? Why am I the one jumping through extra hoops just because they're too lazy to get to the root of the matter? Surely they know what the problem is. If they won't adjust the calculations for all levels then why not add some high/max level job traits to counteract the problem? Why does it have to be merits?

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 2:57pm by Camiie
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#42 Jan 15 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Camiie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
[quote=SunriderRagnarok]Why do they insist on fixing defense and 1-handed calculations through merits?


Because everything is generally "fine" till end-game? You know, after you're done leveling?


It's better to simply fix what's broken than leave it broken and force players to fix it themselves through merits. I betcha they make you give up the opportunity to merit something highly beneficial in exchange for having 1-handers simply not suck. To me merits should focus on enhancing what we already have rather than fixing broken calculations or mechanics.

Doesn't take much to just add a new merit slot, heck it is likely easier than going through the jumbled coding that this team inherited. I am all good with merits to be quite honest. **** people have been asking for more stuff to merit because they have been sitting on capped merits for so long. Now SE has suggested making more merit stuff and people don't like it...

No wonder they hate changing this game, damned if they do, damned if they don't.


This. I wonder despite Camiie's ****************

Can we at least try to have a mature discussion? I know you dislike me since we tend to disagree a lot, but I'm trying to be civil here.


I insist we keep it that way. No need to start reducing it down to saying that "Oh, so and so is just having a ***** fit" or something like that. Let's at least try and act like adults.
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#43 Jan 15 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
You're really missing my point. They want me to spend my time and merits just to (potentially) make 1-handed weapons relevant. Shouldn't they simply BE relevant? Why am I the one jumping through extra hoops just because they're too lazy to get to the root of the matter? Surely they know what the problem is. If they won't adjust the calculations for all levels then why not add some high/max level job traits to counteract the problem? Why does it have to be merits?

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 2:57pm by Camiie
And, unless I missed something, the difference between 1-hand/2-hand weapons and the problems with defense reveal themselves well before players reach level cap. Why must we wait until level cap to see a solution?

The problem is in their formulas, their formulas are what need to be remedied.


Edited, Jan 15th 2013 4:28pm by SunriderRagnarok
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#44 Jan 16 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
You're really missing my point. They want me to spend my time and merits just to (potentially) make 1-handed weapons relevant. Shouldn't they simply BE relevant? Why am I the one jumping through extra hoops just because they're too lazy to get to the root of the matter?


You have to spend time to make ANYTHING in FFXI relevant, nothing in the game simply IS relevant without sinking a bunch of time into it. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has played the game. Whether it's leveling up to cap, collecting expected gear, having necessary combat skills or WS, getting merit abilities (including sinking 90 merits into each 5/5 merit WS), investing large amounts of time in building a weapon (see: E/R/M DDs onry endgame playerbase), acquiring spells (was NIN or /NIN ever "relevant" without obtaining Utsusemi: Ni?), etc. I really don't see this as a hugely new way of thinking, it's just another minor hurdle to clear to play your job at a high level.

Now, the valid complaint would be if you have to choose between merits to make 1-handed weapons "relevant" at the expense of the ability to choose merits to make other jobs viable. I'm not just talking having to make a choice between MP and HP merits to have an ideal mage or non-mage and be able to completely min/max ALL jobs, but having to give up something that's a practical necessity to be on par with your job. I don't mind someone who focuses on 1h being able to have a slight edge on a jack of all trades by choosing 1h-focused merits though. Personally for me using 7 jobs that are all 1h/h2h/ranged, I wouldn't mind be rewarded a little bit for specialization (just as, say, an all out DD focused job like SAM or DRK is prioritized over hybrid DDs, or a dedicated healing job in WHM gets picked first when you're really need healing).

I don't really expect to this to force that kind of choice though. Even if they didn't add more merit capacity (seems like they probably will?), if you have to do something like drop Enemy Crit Rate- merits in order to level up some new "Other" merit, if that's the choice you have to make oh well. I'll go with capping Crit Rate and New 1h Merit in the Other category as the new optimal loadout.

rdmcandie wrote:
**** most of us will have it capped in the first day and be back to ******** about our stagnant merits again a few weeks later.


This. If you've been playing regularly in the past couple years, you're likely capped on merits anyway. Just in the past couple weeks I wiped out an entire 5/5 merit WS and replaced it with a different WS, and drastically redid my DNC Tier II merits, and I was back capped at 30/30 merits with little more than joining a handful of VW parties. Probably not even worth the effort to complain when just getting the merits is likely to be less time and effort than stressing yourself out about it.
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#45 Jan 16 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Okipuit wrote:

Greetings,

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Desperate Blows currently only applies to 2-handed weapons. Would Last Resort post-update still only give 2-handed weapon Haste, or would 1-handed jobs also be able to benefit from it?


Currently, the development team plans to have the proposed Last Resort haste benefit only apply to two-handed weapons. The reason being is there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.

We also wanted to share some additional inquiries about the battle system adjustments:

Quote:
What's going to happen with hand-to-hand weapons?

Categorically hand-to-hand weapons fall under the single-handed weapon classification; however, the stats for hand-to-hand weapons are quite different from that of swords, which are literally held in just one hand, and they will not be treated the same. We will be separating hand-to-hand weapons from this balance adjustment and making changes that fit more in line with the weapon.

Quote:
Will the elemental magic adjustments apply to automatons as well?

Yes, we will be applying the elemental magic adjustments to automatons as well. Though, by simply raising the stats for automatons there will be aspects that cause the automaton to overload easier and such, so we will be keeping these points in mind and looking at balance.

Lastly, we understand that some of you wish to be able to increase the number of merit weapon skills that can be fully upgraded, but this is something that we discussed previously. Instead of making it so you can get everything, we're thinking about making it so there will be benefits without having to max out a category, which will open up the choices a bit more.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29831-Overall-Battle-System-Adjustments-for-the-Future?p=393966#post393966


Edited, Jan 16th 2013 3:40pm by Szabo
#46 Jan 16 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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#47 Jan 16 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
Camiie wrote:
You're really missing my point. They want me to spend my time and merits just to (potentially) make 1-handed weapons relevant. Shouldn't they simply BE relevant? Why am I the one jumping through extra hoops just because they're too lazy to get to the root of the matter?


You have to spend time to make ANYTHING in FFXI relevant, nothing in the game simply IS relevant without sinking a bunch of time into it. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has played the game. Whether it's leveling up to cap, collecting expected gear, having necessary combat skills or WS, getting merit abilities (including sinking 90 merits into each 5/5 merit WS), investing large amounts of time in building a weapon (see: E/R/M DDs onry endgame playerbase), acquiring spells (was NIN or /NIN ever "relevant" without obtaining Utsusemi: Ni?), etc. I really don't see this as a hugely new way of thinking, it's just another minor hurdle to clear to play your job at a high level.


Again my point is being missed. What they seem to be asking 1-handed weapon users to do is go above and beyond everything 2-handed weapon users have to do just to hopefully make their weapons viable against strong targets. I'm talking beyond skillups, gearing, making magian/emp/relic/mythic weapons, normal weapon skill merits, job specific merits, stat merits, etc. Heck, a 2-handed user could be slack in some of those areas and still do decent damage, but to be a capable 1-handed weapon user I would have to do all of the above and go into this new merit thing just to have a shot at approaching where the 2-handers are.

Quote:
Now, the valid complaint would be if you have to choose between merits to make 1-handed weapons "relevant" at the expense of the ability to choose merits to make other jobs viable. I'm not just talking having to make a choice between MP and HP merits to have an ideal mage or non-mage and be able to completely min/max ALL jobs, but having to give up something that's a practical necessity to be on par with your job. I don't mind someone who focuses on 1h being able to have a slight edge on a jack of all trades by choosing 1h-focused merits though. Personally for me using 7 jobs that are all 1h/h2h/ranged, I wouldn't mind be rewarded a little bit for specialization (just as, say, an all out DD focused job like SAM or DRK is prioritized over hybrid DDs, or a dedicated healing job in WHM gets picked first when you're really need healing).

I don't really expect to this to force that kind of choice though. Even if they didn't add more merit capacity (seems like they probably will?), if you have to do something like drop Enemy Crit Rate- merits in order to level up some new "Other" merit, if that's the choice you have to make oh well. I'll go with capping Crit Rate and New 1h Merit in the Other category as the new optimal loadout.


I hope you're right and they won't force that choice, but I can't imagine them being so generous. If they were going to be nice about it I can only assume they'd be going down the fix-it-properly route.

rdmcandie wrote:
**** most of us will have it capped in the first day and be back to ******** about our stagnant merits again a few weeks later.


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This. If you've been playing regularly in the past couple years, you're likely capped on merits anyway. Just in the past couple weeks I wiped out an entire 5/5 merit WS and replaced it with a different WS, and drastically redid my DNC Tier II merits, and I was back capped at 30/30 merits with little more than joining a handful of VW parties. Probably not even worth the effort to complain when just getting the merits is likely to be less time and effort than stressing yourself out about it.


If I got 30 free merits just for logging in every day I'd still think the idea was stupid.

Edited, Jan 16th 2013 4:58pm by Camiie
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Character: Camiie
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MNK 99 / BST 99 / SMN 99 / DNC 99 / SAM 99 / WAR 99 / THF 99
#48 Jan 16 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
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297 posts
Quote:
Again my point is being missed.


I am just trying to understand better. As it seems what you are saying is being understood. I do not care about damage this or damage that. I play for fun.

So what is your point? It seems you are upset that instead of damage dealt being equal between 2h and 1h weapons 1 handed weapons deal less. So would you be happy with many of the benifits on single handed weapons being dropped, or added to 2h, so that single weapon can deal more damage? How about higher penalty for dual wielding? Like say longer delay, less damage dealt (average of both weapons)?

Matsui wrote:
there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.


Your wish will obviously not be granted. There are higher delays on 2h weapons, as well as less beneficial stats, to off set the higher base damage. So instead of complaining find a solution that will work and fit what you want so the game does not become unbalanced more then it already is. A skilled 1h, obviously going to be dual wielding, will out damage a lazy and unskilled 2h player.
#49 Jan 16 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
I guess I should have expanded. I was thinking BLU/DRK might be kind of fun to tool around with, but no love for one-handed weapons makes it meh.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#50 Jan 16 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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2,869 posts
Camiie wrote:
Again my point is being missed. What they seem to be asking 1-handed weapon users to do is go above and beyond everything 2-handed weapon users have to do just to hopefully make their weapons viable against strong targets. I'm talking beyond skillups, gearing, making magian/emp/relic/mythic weapons, normal weapon skill merits, job specific merits, stat merits, etc. Heck, a 2-handed user could be slack in some of those areas and still do decent damage, but to be a capable 1-handed weapon user I would have to do all of the above and go into this new merit thing just to have a shot at approaching where the 2-handers are.


I think the real question is whether 1h/h2h are even intended to use their melee weapons to DD on the same level as the 2-handers. I'd say only MNK and maaaaybe NIN even qualify for legitimate discussion. And it's not as if MNK is completely shunned for DD roles now. Your average well geared MNK can get invites to DD now, even if it isn't the current "top" DD star that DRK and WAR currently are (but watch out incoming DRK-nerf). And we don't really even understand yet whether these 1h changes will affect h2h!

EDIT: NVM, looks like h2h is already confirmed to be treated differently:
Quote:
We also wanted to share some additional inquiries about the battle system adjustments:

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What's going to happen with hand-to-hand weapons?

Categorically hand-to-hand weapons fall under the single-handed weapon classification; however, the stats for hand-to-hand weapons are quite different from that of swords, which are literally held in just one hand, and they will not be treated the same. We will be separating hand-to-hand weapons from this balance adjustment and making changes that fit more in line with the weapon.


There are reasons the other 1handers, just by virtue of their job roles, probably SHOULDN'T compete in terms of physical weapon damage with the pure DD 2handers whose main role really is just "do damage" (and mind you, this is coming from a dedicated "light DD" player, with MNK THF RNG NIN COR PUP DNC):

i) Hybrid and pet jobs:
- BLU: Large portion of their damage comes from spells, so it's very justifiable that their 1h weapon damage potential should be considerably less than a 100% physical DD.
- BST and PUP: 1h/h2h using jobs where it can be justified that they shouldn't do as much damage from the player's weapons since they have access to a pet for a large part of their potential damage. PUP+automaton is actually a very competitive DD in the right situations, it's just that it's not very good for certain activities for other reasons (weak zerg tools, songs/rolls/embrava don't affect puppet in buff-heavy situations, hurt in VW by temps not affecting puppets) [EDIT: Since it was confirmed that h2h is going to be treated differently than "1h"]

ii) Jobs that serve some different function that can justify reducing weapon DD potential:
- THF: Has some solid DD capability, but some key unique features with TH (obviously the big one), lolHatecontrol, and superior evasion. Would certainly benefit from 1h adjustments, but I don't think it's at all unfair that a THF doesn't keep up with DRK/WAR/SAM damage-wise. Get back to me when they give SAM TH7 and we'll talk.
- DNC: Healing and survival capability, it's not really intended to be an all out DD.
- PLD, RUN: The physical/magical tanks, each in their own style. With upcoming enmity adjustments, maybe don't need to keep hate through damage as much as they have at times.
- NIN: The arguable case. They may not do so hot at tanking now, but evasion/shadow style tanking did rule the game for long stretches of time, they were highly useful in Abyssea, and still a must have job in content like VW with many exclusive procs - SE is still finding them a role, even if that's not as a 1h DD specialist. NIN also has some benefit in being a very good solo/lowman job, so maybe that versatility/survivability counts for something that justifies them not keeping up with the pure DDs.

iii) 1h users which are irrrelevant to this discussion:
- RNG: Definitely a DD (and a very useful one in many strategies), but ranged damage isn't affected by 1h melee buffs or lack thereof. Should really be seen more as "ranged" as opposed to "1h".
- COR: Can do a little melee damage, but clearly really intended for buffs > ranged WS damage > ranged damage. Melee isn't the priority by any means.
- RDM, BRD, meleeWHM, GEO: Mentioned because they can indeed use 1h weapons, but we all know they aren't designed to be high end DD jobs.


So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?

Edited, Jan 16th 2013 6:38pm by Anza
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Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#51 Jan 16 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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589 posts
Zymunn wrote:
Quote:
Again my point is being missed.


I am just trying to understand better. As it seems what you are saying is being understood. I do not care about damage this or damage that. I play for fun.

So what is your point? It seems you are upset that instead of damage dealt being equal between 2h and 1h weapons 1 handed weapons deal less. So would you be happy with many of the benifits on single handed weapons being dropped, or added to 2h, so that single weapon can deal more damage? How about higher penalty for dual wielding? Like say longer delay, less damage dealt (average of both weapons)?

Matsui wrote:
there are already a number of benefits that single-handed weapons posses such as dual wield, martial arts, etc.


Your wish will obviously not be granted. There are higher delays on 2h weapons, as well as less beneficial stats, to off set the higher base damage. So instead of complaining find a solution that will work and fit what you want so the game does not become unbalanced more then it already is. A skilled 1h, obviously going to be dual wielding, will out damage a lazy and unskilled 2h player.



Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.
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