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#52 Jan 16 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


I'm going to make a lulzy analogy for the sake of making my point easier to make, but also because I like watching this scene.

In the movie clip above, it was originally planned to to be a melee battle between Jones and the swordsman in a flashy fight. However, Harrison(the actor) basically told the director he should just shoot the guy. What we got here is a no-contest battle scene done in the span of a second.

And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how ****** VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.
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#53 Jan 16 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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RavennofTitan wrote:
Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.


DA and Triple Attack only, or mostly, on 2h weapons? My character is gimp compared to you all that have been playing atleast 5 years. I am a WAR and see THF or NIN appear to be nonstop attacks, by the time I think about WS the mob is dead.
#54 Jan 16 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zymunn wrote:
RavennofTitan wrote:
Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.


DA and Triple Attack only, or mostly, on 2h weapons? My character is gimp compared to you all that have been playing at least 5 years. I am a WAR and see THF or NIN appear to be nonstop attacks, by the time I think about WS the mob is dead.


Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.
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#55 Jan 16 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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HeroMystic wrote:
Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how sh*tty VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.


Eh, each of those jobs does fill some kind of role in the current game and not everything in the game is a zerg event. I use my THF all the time for Treasure Hunter. DNC and PUP are excellent for farming in Dynamis. NIN is a KI-farming machine in Abyssea, and pretty much a requirement in any VW group. BLU is also sought after in VW, can do some cool things like solo Charged Whisker farm for Abyssea KI boxes, can switch between solid DD and dropping cures on people in an instant. There is still some stuff where you want a strong PLD tank (say, holding VW adds), and I wouldn't be shocked to see more in SoA content.

There's certainly a big place for zerg DDs too. But I'd say we really don't need even more when we already have multiple jobs that can fill that role with fairly little to differentiate them from each other besides the different weapon graphics. DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK - they can all basically do the same thing in a Zerg-style fight. Do we really need to try to cram the 1H into that role too?

The one job I feel a little bad for are DRGs (non-mythic) because they truly don't do much of anything that the other 2handers don't do better. At least a DNC or BST is king somewhere (Dynamis), a BLU or NIN is always wanted in VW, a THF will never be replaceable when you want their TH.

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#56 Jan 16 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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Camiie wrote:
Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.


I clearly said I am gimp. Why don't I have that pimp gear? I don't go to fight mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks so I have nothing to compare. I am not ashame to ask questions so I get a clearer picture.

Explain how appear to be nonstop attacks is the same thing as three digit damage numbers.
#57 Jan 16 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how sh*tty VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.


Eh, each of those jobs does fill some kind of role in the current game and not everything in the game is a zerg event. I use my THF all the time for Treasure Hunter. DNC and PUP are excellent for farming in Dynamis. NIN is a KI-farming machine in Abyssea, and pretty much a requirement in any VW group. BLU is also sought after in VW, can do some cool things like solo Charged Whisker farm for Abyssea KI boxes, can switch between solid DD and dropping cures on people in an instant. There is still some stuff where you want a strong PLD tank (say, holding VW adds), and I wouldn't be shocked to see more in SoA content.

There's certainly a big place for zerg DDs too. But I'd say we really don't need even more when we already have multiple jobs that can fill that role with fairly little to differentiate them from each other besides the different weapon graphics. DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK - they can all basically do the same thing in a Zerg-style fight. Do we really need to try to cram the 1H into that role too?

The one job I feel a little bad for are DRGs (non-mythic) because they truly don't do much of anything that the other 2handers don't do better. At least a DNC or BST is king somewhere (Dynamis), a BLU or NIN is always wanted in VW, a THF will never be replaceable when you want their TH.


The problem is that the entire game is all zerg fights.

Being good in dynamis currency farming or in abyssea is pointless.

In dynamis currency farming, pretty much every job walks out with the same currency, and you don't need to farm currency in dynamis in the first place if you can do the zerg fights. Do 1 run of 2 Arch Dynamis Lords, get 2-4 umbral marrow, sell them, now you have the same amount of gil you'd get currency farming for 2 months. And telling that BST was only mentioned in dynamis, because there's nowhere else they are useful. And after the completely unnecessary pet TH nerfs, that's not even true anymore. My flawlessly geared BST main walks out with the same amount of or less currency than my ******, non empyrian, aurore wearing PUP and BLU walk out with now, simply because they have TH 3. BST is the best at doing it half geared while drunk, but it's not the best at doing it well.

Abyssea is also pretty pointless. You go in for 2 days and hit 99. You go in for another couple days and have all the empyrian armor for that job. Now you're done with abyssea, and move on to the actual game. Oh my god, you're great at doing something temporary. That's like saying a job was good at levels 30-60. The only real exception is working on empyrian weapons, which again is easily done by any melee job at all, and any mage capable of curing, because of how overly powerful atma and cruor boosts are.

Then you go to the actual game. The reason you got to 99 and got empyrian armor in order to do. Dynamis Arch bosses; zerged. Voidwatch: zerged. Mages all get to go because of unique spells, but every weaponskill are done by a WAR, and one NIN there for katana and great katana, with the rest being Relic/Empyrian only zerg jobs. Legion; zerged. Neo Nyzul; zerged. Neo Salvage: two 2 handers and a healer. Mini zerged. Meeble Bosses; Zerged.

Saying "Some jobs are good at endgame zergs." is the same as saying, "Some jobs are good at the game." I'd like SE to fix that, but they really haven't been trying. So until SE makes that not the most effective tactic, I'd rather every job be make useful for it.

On another note, Who's betting the "1 hander dex/acc adjustment" and the "1 hander str/att adjustment" will be separate categories that you have to give up critical hit rate+ merits for?
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#58 Jan 16 2013 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
Zymunn wrote:
RavennofTitan wrote:
Higher delay doesn't mean much in fact the higher delay helps two handers. X-hit builds are easier then ever to make a decent one, on top of DA and triple attack are easier then ever to get as well. Then there is also sam still the hardest job to completely derp will still kick the crap out of any 1hander.


DA and Triple Attack only, or mostly, on 2h weapons? My character is gimp compared to you all that have been playing at least 5 years. I am a WAR and see THF or NIN appear to be nonstop attacks, by the time I think about WS the mob is dead.


Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.


Could you imagine if SE made some type of adjustment that allowed these single handed jobs to have a higher damage value on high level mobs.maybe give a max level job access to some type of advanced leveling system...so they could improve on it.


(and not impact the rest of the game, which is pretty @#%^ing balanced.)


Edited, Jan 17th 2013 12:47am by rdmcandie
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#59 Jan 17 2013 at 2:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zymunn wrote:
Camiie wrote:
Where? Abyssea? Content with EP/DC mobs with low defense? Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. The THF and NIN aren't going to slice n' dice powerful high level mobs so easily. Those constant triple digit hits become double digits on a mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks.


I clearly said I am gimp. Why don't I have that pimp gear? I don't go to fight mob with a lot more HP and a lot more dangerous tricks so I have nothing to compare. I am not ashame to ask questions so I get a clearer picture.

Explain how appear to be nonstop attacks is the same thing as three digit damage numbers.


When they are doing 0 to 20 damage at most and WS for 100 to 200 damage if they are lucky. They will not be attacking non-stop like you see in abyssea since they won't have atmacites or atmas.
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#60 Jan 17 2013 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Could you imagine if SE made some type of adjustment that allowed these single handed jobs to have a higher damage value on high level mobs.maybe give a max level job access to some type of advanced leveling system...so they could improve on it.


(and not impact the rest of the game, which is pretty @#%^ing balanced.)



You'd get the same effect with high/max level job traits for those specific jobs.
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#61 Jan 17 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
Anza wrote:
So... which jobs are really being treated unfairly? Is there really a 1h job that should be an elite DD that is being held back here? Why is there something inherently wrong with the jobs that are designed for the DD role being 2h?


And you can easily translate this into FFXI's situation. BLU? PUP? THF? DNC? NIN? PLD? They all have their utilities but most of it is undesirable due to the pure fact that it's just better to gear up for high damage and kill the thing. Some can say this is due to SE submitting to the Zerg mentality, but honestly once we figured out pDIF and Enmity values (and how sh*tty VIT/DEF is), we're the ones that figured out Zerging everything is the best way to go, not SE. Personally, I feel that FFXI doesn't have the ability to allow for complex fights to utilitize our Tank/Utility job to their fullest potential.


Eh, each of those jobs does fill some kind of role in the current game and not everything in the game is a zerg event. I use my THF all the time for Treasure Hunter. DNC and PUP are excellent for farming in Dynamis. NIN is a KI-farming machine in Abyssea, and pretty much a requirement in any VW group. BLU is also sought after in VW, can do some cool things like solo Charged Whisker farm for Abyssea KI boxes, can switch between solid DD and dropping cures on people in an instant. There is still some stuff where you want a strong PLD tank (say, holding VW adds), and I wouldn't be shocked to see more in SoA content.

There's certainly a big place for zerg DDs too. But I'd say we really don't need even more when we already have multiple jobs that can fill that role with fairly little to differentiate them from each other besides the different weapon graphics. DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK - they can all basically do the same thing in a Zerg-style fight. Do we really need to try to cram the 1H into that role too?

The one job I feel a little bad for are DRGs (non-mythic) because they truly don't do much of anything that the other 2handers don't do better. At least a DNC or BST is king somewhere (Dynamis), a BLU or NIN is always wanted in VW, a THF will never be replaceable when you want their TH.



STOP MAKING SENSE. This is the time to complain apples aren't oranges and that people who prefer oranges are really the fruit industry not making apples equal. We must now make apples equal. It will be better when we force choices on players. You'll see. At that point they will chose what fruit is available first.
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#62 Jan 17 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?
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#63 Jan 17 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?


Pretty much.

If we didn't, why have multiple jobs at all? Why not just give everyone everything then everyone will be able to participate all the time in any role they want!.

But then again SE also implemented a wicked awesome system in this game, really unlike any other MMO...we can change jobs depending on what we feel like playing.
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#64 Jan 17 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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louispv wrote:
The problem is that the entire game is all zerg fights.

Being good in dynamis currency farming or in abyssea is pointless.

In dynamis currency farming, pretty much every job walks out with the same currency, and you don't need to farm currency in dynamis in the first place if you can do the zerg fights. Do 1 run of 2 Arch Dynamis Lords, get 2-4 umbral marrow, sell them, now you have the same amount of gil you'd get currency farming for 2 months.


Not everyone is interested in doing an Alliance size event requiring LS time commitments and scheduled playtime to do their money farming. A solo Dyna farmer can still make a very reasonable amount of money, for an event they can hop into by themselves whenever the mood strikes. That's a pretty big difference.

Your perception of everyone who plays FFXI having the goal to run scheduled ADL and Legion events for elite gear and huge money is really skewed. Most of the subscription money does NOT come from this relatively small (and disproportionately loud on message boards) group. There are way more people than you seem to understand who are more focused on things like Abyssea, Dynamis, running around and finishing story missions and exploring new areas (this is likely to make a resurgence with SoA), interested in Play as a Monster, etc.

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Then you go to the actual game. The reason you got to 99 and got empyrian armor in order to do. Dynamis Arch bosses; zerged. Voidwatch: zerged. Mages all get to go because of unique spells, but every weaponskill are done by a WAR, and one NIN there for katana and great katana, with the rest being Relic/Empyrian only zerg jobs. Legion; zerged. Neo Nyzul; zerged. Neo Salvage: two 2 handers and a healer. Mini zerged. Meeble Bosses; Zerged.


ADL and Legion... OK, in large alliance-scaled content on hard mobs, the traditional power DDs (25% of the jobs in the game if you're going by 2handers + MNK) are desired for DD slots. If this is all you want to do in FFXI, more power to you. And if that's the case, maybe you want to consider using a 2hander!

Neo Nyzul is a poor example since it's a particularly cookie-cutter event, and frankly that's more because most of the player base are just afraid to deviate from strategy and not because they understand game mechanics (you really mean to tell me a good BLU can't crush Neo Nyzul?). This is the same as people who would sit at 5/6 party shouting in Jeuno and refuse to do the CoP Promy fights without a SMN because, dammit, they read a guide (by a SMN!) that said you need to use a SMN or you won't win! By the way, in Neo Nyzul you can also wave goodbye to all non-SCH mages, COR BRD, and RNG. None of this really has to do with 1h versus 2h damage calculation.

Salvage and Meebles have some flexibility, you really don't have to do those in a 2hander only formula. These are lowman events where you can run with a few friends. Feel free to argue that a 2h DD strategy is the min/max "best" way to do them, but even supposing that's true, the "non-optimal" setups can do this content just fine.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 12:06pm by Anza
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#65 Jan 17 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?


Pretty much.

If we didn't, why have multiple jobs at all? Why not just give everyone everything then everyone will be able to participate all the time in any role they want!.

But then again SE also implemented a wicked awesome system in this game, really unlike any other MMO...we can change jobs depending on what we feel like playing.


So it's impossible to follow different paths to reach the same point? Two jobs can't be markedly different yet achieve a similar result in the end?
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#66 Jan 17 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Camiie wrote:
If you like doing X activity level a job from list X. If you like doing Y activity level one from list Y. If you like doing both X and Y level one or more of each or a job from list Z that can participate in both. If you like doing X activity but only enjoy playing a job that is good at Y then you're SOL. Is that pretty much the formula we're going with here?


Pretty much.

If we didn't, why have multiple jobs at all? Why not just give everyone everything then everyone will be able to participate all the time in any role they want!.

But then again SE also implemented a wicked awesome system in this game, really unlike any other MMO...we can change jobs depending on what we feel like playing.


So it's impossible to follow different paths to reach the same point? Two jobs can't be markedly different yet achieve a similar result in the end?


Impossible is quite the stretch but it is less optimal and less efficient.

I don't really want to pull it out, but I am going to anyway.

RDM melee (collective groan) is probably the most prime example of required limitations, that result in less efficiency, but still allow for success. As a RDM I feel confident if I were in a DD capacity to say I can pull 70% of a Mainstream DD. Obviously I can not compare to one, but I am not that bad off. One thing I do is support 100% better than them. Granted the more support I do the less effective my damage is, lets say I lose 20%.

My RDM is now about half as effective as a WAR in a DD position, but providing 100% more support than that DD ever will...

What happens if we boost RDM to be a comparable DD to WAR...well WAR suddenly become as worthless job. Why bring a job that does the same amount of damage as a RDM, but is unable to support even half as well as that RDM.

Or how about RDM healing, Id wager RDM is about 80% as efficient as a WHM, but it is going to be able to provide more damage via nuking. However as a RDM's nuking goes up its support goes down lets say a RDM in a nuking capacity effectively supports @ 50% of a WHM's capability. It will still provide more elemental damage, but it isn't keeping up in support.

Lets say ***** it and let RDM heal just as well as a WHM, Suddenly WHM becomes a lot less desirable. If incoming damage is low RDM can nuke, if incoming damage is high, the RDM can heal.

And suddenly you kill off the dedicated jobs (which there are more off) and hybrids become the go to options. The RDM's the BLU's the DNC's the PUP's the SMN's the SCH's. The jobs that can simply do a whole lot more at any given time. Why bring a job that can do one thing, if it is only doing that one thing as well as a job that can do a bunch of things.

This is why jobs which can do more than one task are limited in other tasks. If they were not, then what would be the point of playing anything else...
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#67 Jan 17 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem is not that jobs that use one-handed weapons aren't doing "100%" of the damage of heavy DDs, it's that their utility isn't utility enough to make up for the MASSIVE damage dealing gap between them and heavy damage dealing jobs. Either their utility needs a massive upgrade or their damage needs a significant upgrade. I don't particularly care which, but as long as WAR/SAM/DRK are desirable in almost every event while other jobs are undesirable in almost every event - it is not balanced.

That is what the playerbase wants, not to -never have to level another job- but to have their job be desirable in roughly the same number of REAL ENDGAME events as the current handful of uber desirable jobs. People understand that if RDM did 100% of the damage of WAR plus could stun, CC, buff, heal, then WAR would not be desirable. But if RDMs unique capabilities are only considered say 10% useful and they can only deal 40% damage, then they will not be given slots in parties - as we currently see today.

So yeah, "rdm can do this and that in addition to being able to deal subpar damage" but if on pretty much every mob/event that drops top grade items their unique/non-damaging abilities are useless, then it isn't balanced.

Having some jobs that are essentially only useful on solo content (BST) is not balanced. Balance needs to mean "balanced on top tier content." What players want is not to never ever level anything but one job, but for events to have use for more than just Uber DD and Uber healers and 99 empy BRD. If you want to play support/hybrid/pet jobs, there should be a place for you that isn't sitting alone in a corner of dynamis farming coins.There should be jobs with a lower barrier to entry (in terms of needing super weapons), and there should be room for more utility.

But people in here arguing "one handed jobs shouldn't be able to do anything but TP feed mobs because they have utility skills" are being disingenuous because "utility skills" that aren't in demand enough to get you a party slot aren't really much of a utility, are they. It also ignores the fact that heavy DDs also have utility skills (Angon? DRK Stun? These things do exist)

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 10:16am by Olorinus
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#68 Jan 17 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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But people in here arguing "one handed jobs shouldn't be able to do anything but TP feed mobs because they have utility skills" are being disingenuous because "utility skills" that aren't in demand enough to get you a party slot aren't really much of a utility, are they. It also ignores the fact that heavy DDs also have utility skills (Angon? DRK Stun? These things do exist)



I don't think anyone is arguing against the damage gap being closed. But all jobs shouldn't be equal either. You need to have some distinction. if a PLD could hit as hard as a WAR with a 1H weapon, and then also have the ability to heal and tank why bring a WAR?

Without distinction there is no decision, you go with the job that is the best in the most things, if everything was matched up to parity everyone would be running around as RDM.
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#69 Jan 17 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
louispv wrote:
The problem is that the entire game is all zerg fights.

Being good in dynamis currency farming or in abyssea is pointless.

In dynamis currency farming, pretty much every job walks out with the same currency, and you don't need to farm currency in dynamis in the first place if you can do the zerg fights. Do 1 run of 2 Arch Dynamis Lords, get 2-4 umbral marrow, sell them, now you have the same amount of gil you'd get currency farming for 2 months.


Not everyone is interested in doing an Alliance size event requiring LS time commitments and scheduled playtime to do their money farming. A solo Dyna farmer can still make a very reasonable amount of money, for an event they can hop into by themselves whenever the mood strikes. That's a pretty big difference.

Your perception of everyone who plays FFXI having the goal to run scheduled ADL and Legion events for elite gear and huge money is really skewed. Most of the subscription money does NOT come from this relatively small (and disproportionately loud on message boards) group. There are way more people than you seem to understand who are more focused on things like Abyssea, Dynamis, running around and finishing story missions and exploring new areas (this is likely to make a resurgence with SoA), interested in Play as a Monster, etc.

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Then you go to the actual game. The reason you got to 99 and got empyrian armor in order to do. Dynamis Arch bosses; zerged. Voidwatch: zerged. Mages all get to go because of unique spells, but every weaponskill are done by a WAR, and one NIN there for katana and great katana, with the rest being Relic/Empyrian only zerg jobs. Legion; zerged. Neo Nyzul; zerged. Neo Salvage: two 2 handers and a healer. Mini zerged. Meeble Bosses; Zerged.


ADL and Legion... OK, in large alliance-scaled content on hard mobs, the traditional power DDs (25% of the jobs in the game if you're going by 2handers + MNK) are desired for DD slots. If this is all you want to do in FFXI, more power to you. And if that's the case, maybe you want to consider using a 2hander!

Neo Nyzul is a poor example since it's a particularly cookie-cutter event, and frankly that's more because most of the player base are just afraid to deviate from strategy and not because they understand game mechanics (you really mean to tell me a good BLU can't crush Neo Nyzul?). This is the same as people who would sit at 5/6 party shouting in Jeuno and refuse to do the CoP Promy fights without a SMN because, dammit, they read a guide (by a SMN!) that said you need to use a SMN or you won't win! By the way, in Neo Nyzul you can also wave goodbye to all non-SCH mages, COR BRD, and RNG. None of this really has to do with 1h versus 2h damage calculation.


Winner winner chicken dinner.

One of the 'Zam Thief posters even provides his evidence of success with NNI as a Thief. The event is impossible until you do it and then you realize it's just floor luck instead of drop rate luck.
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#70 Jan 17 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
The problem is not that jobs that use one-handed weapons aren't doing "100%" of the damage of heavy DDs, it's that their utility isn't utility enough to make up for the MASSIVE damage dealing gap between them and heavy damage dealing jobs. Either their utility needs a massive upgrade or their damage needs a significant upgrade. I don't particularly care which, but as long as WAR/SAM/DRK are desirable in almost every event while other jobs are undesirable in almost every event - it is not balanced.


So where is this great amount of game content where so many jobs are undesirable?
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#71 Jan 17 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Having some jobs that are essentially only useful on solo content (BST) is not balanced. Balance needs to mean "balanced on top tier content."


Why does balance NEED to mean that? I'm fine with balance meaning different jobs excelling in different events/group sizes/whatever. It's not like the game limits you from leveling multiple jobs.

Specifically regarding BST, I've played this game since 2004, and in that time BST has ALWAYS been seen by the majority of players as a primarily solo-focused job. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's the precise reason a lot of people who leveled BST chose to level the job (many of whom might also have leveled a traditional 2h DD for party situations). Anyone who levels BST expecting to be in demand for endgame group events simply failed to do the most basic of research and I blame the player, not the developers.

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But people in here arguing "one handed jobs shouldn't be able to do anything but TP feed mobs because they have utility skills" are being disingenuous because "utility skills" that aren't in demand enough to get you a party slot aren't really much of a utility, are they. It also ignores the fact that heavy DDs also have utility skills (Angon? DRK Stun? These things do exist)


I've said it before, but precisely WHICH 1h jobs are people complaining don't get a fair shake and therefore necessitate adjusting 1h weapon damage?

* THF DOES get invites (and always has) to lots of high end content due to Treasure Hunter and respectable spike damage.
* BLU doesn't rely on its 1h weapons to be able to dish out very good damage from spells, and brings boatloads of additional utility from non-damage spells (sleepga, cures, etc.).
* BST is very intentionally not designed to do most of its damage through 1h weapons since it has a pet, with its own advantages and disadvantages (lacking great zerg ability when your damage is split between player and pet being one of them).
* DNC in no way deserves to pump out WAR/DRK/SAM level damage, because it can drop massive cures. Like rdmcandie said, if DNC could DD as well as a 2hander while retaining these abilities, you kill the 2h jobs.
* PLD (and soon RUN) were never designed to be DDs, they are tanks. The question of enmity mechanics needing changes to allow tanking to work like it probably should is a very different (and valid) discussion, but it really doesn't affect the question of 1h/2h damage calculation.

So... maybe NIN has an argument here? And that's it???

And even speaking as a NIN, I'm not entirely convinced. I've still managed to feel plenty useful on my NIN frequently throughout the last couple years. It's basically one of the kings of Abyssea thanks to red procs and atma, it's a must for any VW party due to ninjutsu (and to a lesser extent katana) procs, and it's a very good lowman/solo job. It does not bother me in the least that people would rather use a WAR or DRK for a DD slot in Alliance events.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 8:40pm by Anza
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#72 Jan 17 2013 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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Rdm has it right the gap needs to be closed and events need to be better designed so it not just zerg or gtfo. Really whats the point of utility if new events don't even support it or you have to give up most of your utility just so you can hit procs(blu).
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#73 Jan 18 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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RavennofTitan wrote:
Rdm has it right the gap needs to be closed and events need to be better designed so it not just zerg or gtfo. Really whats the point of utility if new events don't even support it or you have to give up most of your utility just so you can hit procs(blu).


Exactly. There needs to be a refined vision on utility. I am sure Legion would be a great place...if it didn't have a time limit. The current endgame is designed around timers. You NEED to Zerg Legion because if you don't...you time out. Game over. Your strategy is to kill the mobs as fast as possible. Period. This means lots of DD, lots of damage mitigation (Stunning SCH's) lots of buffs (cycling BRD's Embravas and Cors.)

Anything to maximize the damage dealers.

What should exist is an untimed event that allows every job ability to participate. IE. Remove the time cap. The only benefit optimal would have is finishing faster so you can do more events. Meanwhile many many combinations of things could still win, all be it slower. Just like it was in Sky, Sea, Kings, ToAU, Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Nyzul.

The game should not be designed for optimal, it should be designed for progression, and allow players to grow, not required to be grown to play. But it most certainly should not be designed around every job being the exact same just because at present Arbitrary battle clocks are our challenge...not the content itself.

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#74 Jan 18 2013 at 4:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Change Legion time limit to 90 minutes, take 5 minutes off (down to 30min) every time someone dies.

Just as vicious, but fair. If something wipes 2/3rds of your PUG alliance you're screwed, but if you have twelve competent and solid people who could clear it in 60 minutes you've got some serious potential.

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 2:58am by Raelix
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#75 Jan 18 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anza wrote:

* BLU doesn't rely on its 1h weapons to be able to dish out very good damage from spells, and brings boatloads of additional utility from non-damage spells (sleepga, cures, etc.).


In any event where you aren't getting boatloads of temps/refresh our better damaging spells are ridiculously expensive. And they don't do as much damage as you think they do against high-end mobs. Most serious targets can't be slept. We can't cure anyone outside our party natively. We also have limited spell slots and a timer for switching spells, so we lose a lot of utility we might otherwise have.

Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
if a Blue Mage were to come to Legion (or Provenance for that matter), their best best to do well damage wise is to forego spell damage and focus primarily on their damage with Chant du Cygne, because THAT's where their best damage would be coming from.


Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
If any Legion group is bringing you as Blue Mage, then I would assume that either they don't know just how inefficient Blu is over two-handed DD jobs, or they have so many people there that they can compensate for you on Blu, because Blu is one of the worst melee jobs for Legion by far.


Anza wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Having some jobs that are essentially only useful on solo content (BST) is not balanced. Balance needs to mean "balanced on top tier content."


Why does balance NEED to mean that? I'm fine with balance meaning different jobs excelling in different events/group sizes/whatever. It's not like the game limits you from leveling multiple jobs.


So you disagree with everyone who says "X job shouldn't be able to damage well because then Y job wouldn't be wanted?" Just wondering. Because if it doesn't matter if a whole crapload of jobs are never wanted on group content, why not spin things around. Make BST deal godly, hateless damage and leave WARs to be the king of procs in abyssea. After all if they are the best at one, very limited thing, why should they expect to be wanted in group content? That's what you're essentially defending. If a job has even one tiny niche the playerbase shouldn't expect any balance from the devs at all, ever, or for group content to ever be designed in a way that doesn't render your job useless.

That whole "you can level multiple jobs" argument is asinine, especially when the barrier to entry to any DD job for serious content is extremely high. If you're a regular player you aren't going to have the time to gear out more than a couple jobs. Multiple jobs isn't an excuse for crappy balance.

Anza wrote:
Specifically regarding BST, I've played this game since 2004, and in that time BST has ALWAYS been seen by the majority of players as a primarily solo-focused job. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's the precise reason a lot of people who leveled BST chose to level the job (many of whom might also have leveled a traditional 2h DD for party situations). Anyone who levels BST expecting to be in demand for endgame group events simply failed to do the most basic of research and I blame the player, not the developers.


It's been seen as a solo job because it's not desired in group content. I didn't level BST expecting it to be desired at endgame, I leveled it because I enjoy the job designing a game so that players get punished for playing the jobs they like is bogus. It's also not balanced. Blame players for leveling jobs if you like, but the simple fact of the matter is, all jobs should be roughly equally useful in group content. That's currently not the case, and the fact that it is so is a design flaw, which is not the player's fault. Just because a job is broken doesn't mean the developers should never fix it.



Edited, Jan 18th 2013 10:18am by Olorinus
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#76 Jan 18 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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What's funny is that in my WotG static, Faithful Falcorr was doing more damage than my decently geared WAR when we were fighting mobs in Castle Oz. Smiley: glare
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#77 Jan 18 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:

So you disagree with everyone who says "X job shouldn't be able to damage well because then Y job wouldn't be wanted?" Just wondering. Because if it doesn't matter if a whole crapload of jobs are never wanted on group content, why not spin things around?


2002-2006 would like to say hi. They feel forgotten.

Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:

the simple fact of the matter is, all jobs should be roughly equally useful in group content.


Wut...


Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:

That's currently not the case, and the fact that it is so is a design flaw, which is not the player's fault. Just because a job is broken doesn't mean the developers should never fix it.


The corollary is that just because some players want to use job X to function as type Y, doesn't mean there are design flaws or the system is broken.
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#78 Jan 18 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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The corollary is that just because some players want to use job X to function as type Y, doesn't mean there are design flaws or the system is broken.


Wanting the developers to develop an equal amount of content that allows the strength of different jobs (not just the same jobs over and over again) to shine isn't wanting "to use job X to function as type Y" unless type X is "job that isn't wanted in endgame" and type Y is "job that is desirable in endgame"
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#79 Jan 18 2013 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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So what you're saying, is that since WAR does nothing but damage, all other jobs must suck at damage, because otherwise what would WAR do? So how about you give WAR some utility you seem to love so much?

Oh right, because you realize that utility is worthless.

Being able to heal and nuke, or heal and deal damage is worthless when you can't heal as well as the healer, can't DD as well as a DD, and can't nuke as well as a nuker. You can only do one or the other at any time, and you will only be invited to do one or the other, so they'll just invite the better job.

Being able to tank is... well there is no such thing as a tank so that's not even a discussion. Hate control for the same reason.

Having Treasure Hunter isn't a utility when barely anything uses it. Voidwatch is entirely unaffected by TH if you have capped lights, and capping lights is required to win, so TH is worthless. Abyssea makes TH worthless because of triggers. Legion doesn't use TH, because you need to actually kill something first before anything drops. Neo nyzul doesn't even have drops for most people, since you're just in it for astrarium, and you lose most of the floor 100 drops due to time anyway. The only thing TH is useful for is solo farming for gil, to buy gear to use in endgame content, that you will never get to do anyway because you gave up damage for TH.

And BST as a solo job, laughable. No job was ever designed to solo. SE has said it again and again. They want us to party for everything, hence why everything is incredibly difficult to solo until you outlevel it, exploit something SE later nerfs, or put in insane amounts of effort. Hence why BST gear comes from group events BST can't go to. And BST has never been a very good soloer anyway. Back when we charmed things, any job/BST was better than BST/any job because everything BST got was subable. Today any job/DNC can do just as well soloing as BST can. And for NM's, many jobs are far superior to BST simply because of how many instant death/doom/aura/ en effects the enemies have that kill a pet, but another job/NIN can simply blink away, or can remove from themselves while a BST can't.

And every ability we've been given either doesn't affect, or makes soloing harder. Spur, which gives your pet more TP, which doesn't help a soloer as you will always be using the cheapest defensive move you can to survive. Run Wild, which only helps when in a group, because it kills your tank. It doesn't help in a group either because it doesn't really increase damage, but it doesn't really help solo. The removal of charm and replacement with weaker, long recast, expensive jug pets. Even the preposed new 2 hour gave you defensive buffs for use in parties, because it killed your solo ability to use it, until we raised holy ****.

And BST pets as a replacement for DD ability? Sure, on too weaks. On actual challenging enemies, it leaves BST as a sh*tty WAR that can't use 2 handed weapons, can't sub SAM, has BRD stats, and has no abilities or traits that help them DD.

If the utility, isn't utilized, because it is not useful, then we don't have any utility, and thus should be just as good at damage as everyone else. Which to be honest is how an MMO is supposed to work. Every job is supposed to be equally good at it's role, in slightly different ways, that you play because you enjoy the style of it. And since the game is the way it is, there are only three roles, DD, buffer, and healer. Unfortunately, almost every job is stuck in the first category.

Alternatively, you have to actually make utility.
A) Stop with the stupid time limits: Arch dynamis lord has to be killed before perfect defense wears off, as fast as possible. Voidwatch bosses have to be zerged as fast as possible while it's stunned by a trigger, because it will instantly kill your whole group as soon as fool's drink wears. Neonyzul has an incredibly short time limit that requires very specific set ups and massive support to do as much damage as you possibly can in as little time as possible. Legion has both incredibly high amounts of damage needing to be done, and a short time limit, and you have to do it over and over on numerous enemies.

The enemy should be the enemy, not the clock.

B) Stop making everything immune to everything. Immunobreak isn't good enough, since having to cast a spell 10 times so that it can stick for a few minutes, then no longer function ever again will not make this a utility. Then mages can be enfeeblers as a utility, and that can add challenge to a fight you didn't put a ridiculous time limit on. Then BLU's additional effects, and RDM's enfeebles, and the additional effect from a pet's ws's might actually get one of them into a group over another zerger.

C) Stop with the insta-death aoe's that reach farther than a mage can cast from. Stop insta death single targets. Just make these enemies do reasonable amounts of damage that are a challenge to deal with. We shouldn't have to zerg things to death before Perfect defense/fool's&fanatic's/ a trigger wears off, or die and have to zombie it the rest of the fight.

Make defenses a utility! Make gear that is actually useful to DD's that have defensive stats. Make protect/DEF/VIT do something. Make defensive songs/rolls actually do something useful compared to offensive ones. Makes these buffs apply to pets so that my damned pet isn't taking double the damage I am.

D) Remove the hate cap. There shouldn't be one. Then tanking will actually be a utility. And with tanking actually working, hate control will also be a utility. If there is a hate cap, no matter how high it is, neither of these things will ever happen.

But since this would require the people making the game, to play the game, and then do work to fix the game, my first suggestion is the easier (read, lazier) option.

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 4:58pm by louispv
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#80 Jan 18 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
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The corollary is that just because some players want to use job X to function as type Y, doesn't mean there are design flaws or the system is broken.


Wanting the developers to develop an equal amount of content that allows the strength of different jobs (not just the same jobs over and over again) to shine isn't wanting "to use job X to function as type Y" unless type X is "job that isn't wanted in endgame" and type Y is "job that is desirable in endgame"


Thank you for re-iterating my point. Now please define endgame as something besides Legion.
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#81 Jan 18 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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@Anza

Blue mage spells are less effective vs high level targets than melee damage. That example is faulty

Also, there is a HUGE imbalance in game content. This imbalance causes a very big problem for the enjoyability of the game. There is an overwhelming amount of content which REQUIRES zerging the fight in order to be effective. The number of jobs which are useful in a zerg is very limited in scope of how many jobs this game actually has.

Those making the argument that "IF you want to participate in X content, just level X job!" are being at best short-sighted and obtuse, or at worst (and I find this ridiculous) bigoted and condescending.

You think a game w/ 20 (and soon 22) jobs should Completely BAN jobs from content? Every event should be like the Marble Bridge?
The problem is that jobs ARE completely banned from content. Its not that some jobs are better at it than others, thats expected and thats fine. The problem is that if you are not a 2h dd, if you do NOT have a legendary weapon, or if you are not one of the best Support jobs, you have NO place in the content whatsoever.

As a counter to this, look at abyssea or the current dynamis. IN abyssea, any player can be very powerful, and you can achieve the content w/ many different jobs. Sure, WAr and NIn are best for proc'ing red, BLM best for proc'ing yellow, mnk/war + whm duo best for proc'ing blu for the different goals one may have. However, you can accompish these things even w/out optimum jobs.

In Neo Dynamis some jobs farm much better than others. However any job CAN be effective. I've actually gone smn/dnc to do a few xp trials, and though its no where close to what I can do on at least 3 of my other jobs, its still effective. I can participate int he content and have something to show for it.

BST and blu are my favorite jobs to play and both are gimped and shutout of alot of content by the gross imbalance caused by the current mechanics.

Sure, I have several other jobs, but I've invested so much into these 2, that getting shut out of content I want to play on them is frustrating. Sure, there is not a barrier on leveling many other jobs like there was before abyssea. Leveling is much faster now. The ability to store alot of gear for those other jobs is not as impossible to obtain either. However, its still a big let down to not be able to play the game the way I enjoy most. Everyone has preferences of job and playstyle. Some enjoy different jobs more than others. The variety of jobs and subjobs in this game is a great strength. It is very enjoyable. However to castrate that variety in the end game content is a big contradiction to that and not enjoyable.
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#82 Jan 18 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Default
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Xilk wrote:
@Anza

Blue mage spells are less effective vs high level targets than melee damage. That example is faulty

Also, there is a HUGE imbalance in game content. This imbalance causes a very big problem for the enjoyability of the game. There is an overwhelming amount of content which REQUIRES zerging the fight in order to be effective. The number of jobs which are useful in a zerg is very limited in scope of how many jobs this game actually has.

Those making the argument that "IF you want to participate in X content, just level X job!" are being at best short-sighted and obtuse, or at worst (and I find this ridiculous) bigoted and condescending.

You think a game w/ 20 (and soon 22) jobs should Completely BAN jobs from content? Every event should be like the Marble Bridge?
The problem is that jobs ARE completely banned from content. Its not that some jobs are better at it than others, thats expected and thats fine. The problem is that if you are not a 2h dd, if you do NOT have a legendary weapon, or if you are not one of the best Support jobs, you have NO place in the content whatsoever.

As a counter to this, look at abyssea or the current dynamis. IN abyssea, any player can be very powerful, and you can achieve the content w/ many different jobs. Sure, WAr and NIn are best for proc'ing red, BLM best for proc'ing yellow, mnk/war + whm duo best for proc'ing blu for the different goals one may have. However, you can accompish these things even w/out optimum jobs.


And it's because of Abyssea that developers made other types of content. The people who didn't play the 2 red proccers and WHM mules (or MNK) whined for pretty much the entirety of 2012 and possibly some of 2011 that there was this HUGE IMBALANCE AND THEY WERE EXCLUDED FROM CONTENT. So developer makes another type of content (Neo Limbus, Salvage, Einhejar and Meeble Burrows) and now people are whining that there is this HUGE IMBALANCE AND NO ONE IS LETTING THEM INTO CONTENT. They will fix it, maybe the top DDs will rotate, maybe not, something will get nerfed, but you know what will still be the same after all is said and done and players make their choices?





People will still be whining all over forums about a HUGE IMBALANCE AND THEY ARE EXCLUDED FROM CONTENT.

It's the constant that has been with us since the first shortsighted job X didn't get invited when they wanted to.

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#83 Jan 18 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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@barrister

Developers made additional content because the game grew from 75 to 99 not because the proc system was imbalanced. They have to add more content or let the game stagnate and die. no point staying in a game at level 99 when all the content is aimed at level 75...

I am not saying job is shutout because ppl won't invite you on some jobs. It is shutout because the game mechanics literally make it impossible for some jobs to contribute enough in some events.

The way to measure imbalance is not about how many player whine about something. You can actually measure which jobs can be useful or completely NOT useful in different content. Abyssea has its problems, but the proc' balance really wasn't it. Even if its not as efficient, I could gather a few friends and we could enjoy playing the jobs we liked. I could /war to get enough procs to do what I wantd, or someone really coudl play drk or pld and do alot of red proc's anyway. What was great about abyssea is that it allowed everyone to make progress on it playing how they liked, and you could make steady progress for reasonable rewards. Sure some ppl will be much more efficient or faster than others, but everyone could participate.

(besides Some ppl will whine no matter what just because they are gratifying their own feelings or because they think it will gain them some influence.)

Also, the content which these jobs are being cut out from is the content to get the best gear. So I have favority job X, which I have enjoyed putting effort into collecting good gear for. Here comes a new interesting type of content to play thru, but oops.. even though I've worked on making this job good, I can't use the gear I've worked for... I can't play the content because the mechanics make me so rediculously outmatched. The gap is too big.

I think Neo Salvage has been just fine for allowing a variety of job to be viable. However, Odin II, Legion, VW (until they gradually made parts easier things), ADL.. these all require Zergs. And many jobs which are viable dd (if not the best) are all of a sudden completely worthless DD.

The reason that BST is so OP on lower level mobs is the same reason it is so gimp on higher level mobs. Its the level correction mechanics for mobs. Pets mechanics work just like other mobs. This literally causes a disproportionate gain in damage pets deal to lower level mobs and a disproportionate LOSS vs higher level mobs. Interestingly, the Neo salvage bosses do not have significant level superiority to players. They are actually probably level 99 just like us or fairly close. Even though they have strong stats, it means bst pets and blue mages will be sufficiently effective in Neo Salvage.

Whenever the us community rep team finishes the translation today, you should see an announcement they are considering removing the level correction term completely. This would be a drastic change. It would allow defense to be more useful for normal players and it would have a much greater influence on bst. It would make bst stronger vs higher level mobs, but probably weaker than bst presently is vs lower level mobs.


Edited, Jan 18th 2013 6:34pm by Xilk
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#84 Jan 18 2013 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Camate wrote:

Happy Friday everyone!

I have a couple of follow-ups in regards to the various topics discussed in this thread.

Before reading, please note that the below is based on discussions amongst the team as well as information that we confirmed with the lead directly. This information is not finalized.

As this is not a post directly from the developers themselves, there is a possibility that there is information here that is incorrect due to the fact this text has not been checked by them after it was written, meaning edits or additional supplementation may be made after the fact.

With that said… Here's what Matsui mentioned about defense.

Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Regarding Defense

This is a topic that we have received feedback on asking to increase the boons of defense. Due to the attack/defense ratio, the meaning behind adding defense past a certain value starts to become pointless, and we would like to make it have meaning.

As a merit, for example, the more you increase your defense, the lower the damage taken will be and the boons for Defender would become large.

On the other hand, while under the effects of abilities that decrease defense such as Berserk or Last Resort, the damage you take would become higher than what it is currently.


The development team is currently looking into the below adjustments for the attack/defense ratio.

Even if defense is lowered, the damage received does not increase

Currently there is a cap imposed for the attack/defense ratio.

The damage you receive from an enemy's attack will increase up to 50% of your defense; however, if it is less (than 50%) you will still receive the same damage as if you had 50%.

This is the reason why even if you reduce your defense a lot when stacking Berserk and Last Resort, you won't see a large increase in the amount of damage you take.


Idea

1. Increase the cap value for the numbers calculated from the attack/defense ratio.
2. Damage received while defense is low will be larger.


Even if defense is increased, the damage received is not reduced

This is mainly for higher level enemies where the level difference correction is imposed.

Every level a value is added per level to the value that is calculated from the attack/defense ratio, and defense is lowered and then taken into account.


Idea

1, The monsters created after Seekers of Adoulin will be created without the imposing of a level difference correction, and when higher level monsters are created, modification will be placed on attack, defense, and stats.
2. Remove level difference correction
By removing the level difference correction, it will be possible to reduce the amount of damage taken by increasing your defense.


Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently.

Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Regarding Content

To start off, we are looking into adjustments for new Nyzul, Legion, Odin's Chamber II, Voidwatch (up to Provenance Watcher), Salvage, and in the event there is further necessity, new Salvage as well.

Below is what we are looking into for adjustments.

New Nyzul

Adjustments to the warp range of floors

Legion

- Adjustments to monster levels
- Adjustments to attack power and defense

Odin's Chamber II

Adjustments to monster levels

Voidwatch

Expand the usage range of the void clusters to Provenance (Provenance Watcher)

Salvage

- Re-examine the drop rate of level 35 equipment
- Make a change so that monsters other than the NMs that spawn from ramparts in Bhaflau Remnants drop the same equipment

Walk of Echoes

- Adjustments to monster levels
- Remove EX status from each type of coin
- Add sacks that contain multiple Devious Die and Liminal Residue


Past this, we will continue to make adjustments as necessary, and we will be making it so strategy and play style variations can be developed instead of having to win with a huge amount of fire power in a short amount of time.


Below are some changes to the adjustment plans:

New Nyzul

Since the purpose of using Embrava was to increase the pace of defeating all enemies, instead of adjusting the floor warp range, we will be re-examining changes to monster strength.

- Adjustments to defense
Currently looking into making adjustments so that attacks that focus on enemies' weakness are even more deadly.

- Adjustments to the enemy's level per floor (*values are being adjusted)
Floors 01-20: Lowered by 10 levels
Floors 21-40: Lowered by 7 levels
Floors 41-60: Lowered by 4 levels
Floors 61-80: Lowered by 2 levels
Floors 81-100: No change

Legion

- Adjustments to HP/attack/defense

As mentioned above, we are looking into removing the level difference correction.
Due to the fact that removing the level difference correction and lowering the level of monsters at the same time would cause the monsters to become too weak, we are thinking about making adjustments to attack and defense, as well as HP.

Odin's Chamber II

- Adjustments to HP/attack/defense

Similar to Legion, due to the fact that removing the level difference correction and lowering the level of monsters at the same time would cause the monsters to become too weak, we are thinking about making adjustments to attack and defense, as well as HP.

Also, the development team is aware of everyone’s concerns that monster’s special attacks are a bit on the fierce side.

They are currently discussing making it similar to new Limbus, Odin’s Chamber II, and Meeble Burrows where you can formulate a strategy to evade special attacks, and also with the defense adjustments it will be possible to withstand an enemy’s attack more than now as their attack power is reduced. The goal is to change the conditions where you need to defeat a monster right away because even a single regular hit from them deals too much damage.


Next, on to dark knight

There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:

- To make job adjustments by comparing aspects collectively to close the gap between dark knight
- To not make adjustments by comparing only fire-power to leave dark knight behind

As mentioned previously, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio, a greater emphasis will be placed on defense. In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change. With that said, based on these changes to the attack/defense ratio we will be fleshing out specifics for what kind of adjustments are necessary for other jobs and let you know once we have some information.


Finally, elemental magic.

When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs.

Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users.

Also, we do not have any plans to reduce the casting time or recast time any further than what was listed due to the fact that the average damage will increase and it will also be possible to deal good damage with tier II and III spells.

We are also planning to make adjustments to “-ga” and “-ja” type spells following these guidelines as well. Similarly, we are planning to make adjustments to ancient magic, slightly deviating from these guidelines.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29831-Overall-Battle-System-Adjustments-for-the-Future?p=394568#post394568

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 7:54pm by Szabo
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#85 Jan 18 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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The main ideas you wanna take out of that post is changing the Atk/Def caps and removing level correction.

VIT/DEF tanking may become a possibility, Berserk/Last Resort/Counterstance becomes much more dangerous to use at full capacity, Cocoon possibly becomes overpowered, etc.
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#86 Jan 21 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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That would probably nerf bst pets into the ground. Currently the only things they are any good at is slaughtering lower level prey and tanking/soloing stuff in abyssea. I hope they consider that.

Edited, Jan 21st 2013 10:06am by Olorinus
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#87 Jan 21 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Default
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
That would probably nerf bst pets into the ground. Currently the only things they are any good at is slaughtering lower level prey and tanking/soloing stuff in abyssea. I hope they consider that.

Edited, Jan 21st 2013 10:06am by Olorinus


Consideration has no place in this.

Solution will be determined by X = (Y^Z) * (Illogical Choice* 1.5)

Where X = Final Result and Y = Number of People Complaining and Z=least number of years playing FFXI


Edited, Jan 21st 2013 4:12pm by TheBarrister
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#88 Jan 23 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Camate wrote:

Greetings!

Since there has been a lot of feedback and questions regarding level correction, I’d like to take this opportunity to add a bit to what we mentioned last week about how we are looking into eliminating level correction.

This level correction is what we will be using to make it so that when you increase your defense the damage you take will be reduced. In other words, the level correction will be focused on the monsters' attack power. Since we will not be making any changes to the level correction in regards to monster defense, damage towards higher level enemies will not see an increase from the level correction adjustments. Completely getting rid of level correction would make it easy at low levels to defeat monsters that have a difference of 20 levels or more.

With that said, from your character's perspective, these changes will only really be applicable to higher level monsters, and easy prey monsters or other lower level monsters will not become weaker. However, depending on the attack/defense ratio there may be variations.

We also understand that the current attack/defense ratio cap for single-handed and two-handed weapons is 2 and 2.25 respectively, and an idea was raised to set them both to 2.25. We will need to examine whether this value is good enough or if we need to make further changes in advance before we proceed with this adjustment.

Now to answer some questions…

Quote:
With these adjustments could you also make adjustments to weapon skills that have “defense ignored varies with TP”?


Currently we do not have any plans to make adjustments to these kinds of weapon skills.

Quote:

Am I going to die right away when I use Counterstance now?


We understand the concerns associated with this and there is a possibility that we will be making separate adjustments to Counterstance.

As a final note, we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to weapons that deal non-elemental damage; however, we do realize that they are extremely strong. Though this is speaking more about the future, since we will be introducing items that have a higher damage value, we expect that these weapons will not be something that are used full-time, and the situations for use will become limited.

In regards to the way we create monsters, we will still be adding features to them like you can see currently, where some monsters will be weak against piercing, while others weak against blunt damage or physical damage in general. However, instead of making it so you can only do damage via a certain method of attacking, we feel it would be better to create them so certain attack methods yield even more damage. To get a better idea of what we are talking about, Qutrub are a perfect example.

Also, the possibility that we add more weapons that deal non-elemental damage is extremely low.

Now then, just to wrap stuff up, below is a TL;DR version of the basic plan for these adjustments. Please keep in mind that none of this is finalized.


Attack/defense ratio adjustment plan

- Increase the cap value for the numbers calculated from the attack/defense ratio.
Make adjustments so that when a player’s defense is low, damage taken will increase.

- Increase the cap of the attack/defense ratio for single-handed weapons.
Look into increasing this to 2.25, the same attack/defense ratio of two-handed weapons.

Level correction adjustment plan

- Level correction for monsters’ attack power
Make adjustments so when a player’s defense is high, damage taken will be reduced.

- Make adjustments to monsters’ strength via parameters
Monsters created after Seekers of Adoulin will be made at a level where there is no level correction, and when higher level monsters are created modification will be placed on attack, defense, and stats.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29831-Overall-Battle-System-Adjustments-for-the-Future?p=395968#post395968

Edited, Jan 28th 2013 7:51pm by Szabo
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#89 Jan 23 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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interesting. I'm no expert, but from the sound of that, these changes shouldn't negatively effect BST pets too much. I guess it would make them weaker against lower level targets that use protect or w/e... hopefully that this is the worst of it.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2013 12:12pm by Olorinus
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#90 Jan 23 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah sounds like crabs and crawlers might become a little more annoying but nothing to bad so I'm slightly hopeful.
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#91 Jan 23 2013 at 11:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
interesting. I'm no expert, but from the sound of that, these changes shouldn't negatively effect BST pets too much. I guess it would make them weaker against lower level targets that use protect or w/e... hopefully that this is the worst of it.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2013 12:12pm by Olorinus


This post appears that the level correction would only be used for monster > player damage. In that case, it would not affect bst pets at all, unless you include ballista vs bst... which no one cares about.
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#92 Jan 28 2013 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okipuit wrote:

I'd like to respond to a couple of questions and feedback that were brought up regarding the battle system adjustments.

Damage and Defense

Quote:

Right now, without damage reduction gear I am still taking roughly 800 damage or so in Legion from single hits. Using Last Resort or Berserk without any damage reduction gear and we are talking about eating nearly 1500 damage. Even with 50% damage reduction, that's still 750 damage, making it quite difficult to use Last Resort or Berserk. I don't want you to increase the damage cap any more from what it is currently. However, I do agree with adjustments that simply make it so the damage you receive is decreased significantly when you increase your defense.


To briefly reiterate what was announced previously, we will be making adjustments so that:

- The maximum value of damage received is increased higher than what it is currently.
- It will be possible to reduce damage more than currently.


We've also seen quite a lot of comments mentioning that backline jobs as well as lightly armored jobs would be affected negatively from the aforementioned defense adjustments.

As a general direction on this issue, while the defense of heavy armor jobs and light armor jobs will not be the same, in order to prevent this from becoming too large of a disparity we will be making it so there will not be situations where a certain job is unable to rush in and attack.

As was suggested in feedback, we will be looking into various ways to do this such as increasing the amount of light armor with damage reduction or increasing the amount of evasion gear.

Hate Cap

Quote:

Please make sure to deal with the hate cap issue properly. I'd really like to see adjustments that make it so the hate cap cannot be reached easily or adjustments that make tank jobs function better as tanks.


We plan on making adjustments to hate.

Producer Matsui will be explaining further details to provide insight on the current situation and how things will be changed. We also received the below message from him as well:

Akihiko Matsui wrote:

I'd like to take a moment to explain about the current calculation method as well, but I just need a little bit more time.


Regarding Weapons

Quote:

I think that both one-handed and two-handed weapons need to be adjusted. Raising one-handed weapons up to the level of two-handed weapons is too simplistic of a solution, and comparatively the balance would be maintained through compensation via equipment.

Current situation:
Accuracy: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons
Damage: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons

Proposed adjustment:
Accuracy: One-handed weapons > Two-handed weapons
Damage: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons


Please understand that the adjustments that we are currently looking into for weapon adjustments are not the end. We would like to have each weapon have their own special traits, and the adjustments will take place step by step.

Finally, in regards to weapons that deal non-elemental damage, specifically the Twilight Scythe.

The below is a simple compilation of the opinions we've seen on the forums:

- Leaving it the way it is currently is fine
- It needs to be adjusted
- Leave the effect as it is and lower the damage value
- Change it to the same effect as Murasamemaru (WS are non-elemental damage)
- Increase the jobs that can equip it

Due to the fact that adding more jobs to this weapon doesn't lend itself very well as a solution, I'd like to remove this as one of the options; however, we would like to hear everyone's opinions for and against adjustments to Twilight Scythe. We would like to proceed carefully with this, but please keep in mind that just because one opinion is greater in volume does not mean that we will base our decision solely on that.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29831-Overall-Battle-System-Adjustments-for-the-Future?p=397451#post397451

Edited, Jan 28th 2013 7:50pm by Szabo
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#93 Jan 28 2013 at 8:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Really? Twilight Scythe is the part of DRK that scrublets are ******** about?

There's a reason I suggested making DRK's SP2 an 'ignores defenses' effect for all weapons. It's something that then defines the job well from others. Then you can nerf Resolution or whatever.
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#94 Jan 28 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm surprised. Never really thought the Twilight Scythe was that huge of an advantage, especially since it's still subject to pDIF.

I can think of several NMs where it's great to have, but is there anything that simply impossible to complete otherwise?
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#95 Jan 28 2013 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thought it was mainly used for breaking Pil's shields but Quickdraw does the same thing so idk what people's problem is and it's not that hard to get either.
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#96 Jan 28 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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xypin wrote:
I'm surprised. Never really thought the Twilight Scythe was that huge of an advantage, especially since it's still subject to pDIF.

I can think of several NMs where it's great to have, but is there anything that simply impossible to complete otherwise?


I think that argument is happening on the japanese side of things. I really dont' see any western players complaining about it at all.
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#97 Jan 29 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Last weekend we were able to implement roughly 90% of the monsters’ special attack data for Adoulin (still needs adjustment though).

This week we will be discussing and finalizing how we will be implementing the even more special aspects. Up until two years ago this was work that I was doing myself, but since I had been gone for a bit I consulted with the current lead to cautiously perform the implementation work. Honestly, it was a lot of fun (hopefully I was of some use to the lead).

There is still a ton of other things to do, but I would like to make a post as promised about the logic and calculations related to enmity, what is going on currently, and how we plan to fix it heading towards Adoulin. Hang in there just a short while longer.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29831-Overall-Battle-System-Adjustments-for-the-Future?p=397733#post397733
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#98 Jan 30 2013 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
As a general direction on this issue, while the defense of heavy armor jobs and light armor jobs will not be the same, in order to prevent this from becoming too large of a disparity we will be making it so there will not be situations where a certain job is unable to rush in and attack.


I hope to **** that RDM is that certain job. I need some love.
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#99 Jan 31 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Akihiko Matsui wrote:

Greetings,

I appreciate all of the posts discussing the Twilight Scythe. I'm especially thankful that there was feedback that was both for and against making adjustments.

I also saw posts that were extremely emotionally charged that didn't offer reasons why they didn't want it to be changed. Though I have taken note of your feelings, I cannot use posts with these types of statements and feedback as reference, regardless of whether or not they are for or against adjustments.

With that said, based on the feedback we have received, the development team has looked into this again and has decided to make adjustments to the stats of Twilight Scythe.

Looking at each job individually, there are variations in what they are good at and what they are not so good at. (This would be the aspect known as job characteristics.)
These variations are altered through the addition of equipment/items and through job adjustments, and linked to the compatibility of content. Furthermore this is linked to the variations within a job itself.

These variations are a matter of degrees and will become a topic of where we draw the line; however, there are various methods to perform adjustments.

For example:
Adjustments to jobs
Adjustments to equipment and items
Adjustments to content
So on and so forth…

With that said, we feel that currently dark knight’s level of variation is much higher than that of other jobs, and since it seems that you share the same understanding we have come to the decision to revamp the stats on Twilight Scythe.

While we are still fleshing out the specific adjustment plan, we are thinking about the below:

• Add a risk to the weapon, such as when equipping Twilight Scythe, every time an attack is made, you lose HP (overlaps with the effect of Soul Eater)
• Add the effect as an enchantment which would decrease the frequency of it activating
• Have the effect activate at a constant rate only when remaining HP is below a certain value.
Additionally, make it so the rate is increased depending on the amount of HP left.


In regards to other weapons and weapon skills that deal non-elemental damage, we feel that at the current point in time they are within the allowable range and will not be adjusting them.

Also, in regards to the power of elemental magic, once we have performed the revamps we will make a decision for this. (Of course, we will be letting you know about new adjustment plans and ideas as we go.)

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/29831-Overall-Battle-System-Adjustments-for-the-Future?p=398443#post398443
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#100 Jan 31 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well that's disappointing. Twilight Scythe doesn't even seem to be something worth getting upset over.
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#101 Jan 31 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be OK if it had a souleater effect, I guess... but not really. The 100% process rate is the only makes the weapon worth using, so definitely hope they don't change that part.
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