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#1 Nov 15 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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So today Camate gave us this message:

Camate wrote:

Greetings,

Ever since the announcement about the adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava, there have been a lot of comments and feedback regarding content difficulty. Including comments from many of you that feel like the development team is creating content that they don't want you to beat.

Of course, that's not the case, but the development team does believe it's okay to have content that cannot be beat.

When it comes to content like Legion and Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey floor 100, they were designed to be difficult without very good gear and a high skill level. As a result, those players who do not meet a certain level will have trouble clearing this content; however, that is the context of their difficulty. The development team believes that the rewards obtainable from such difficult content should only be available to a portion of players. (Based on the stats, not everyone will be able to possess it.)

It would be hard to call it very difficult content if just anyone was able to beat it.
(Frankly, the Hall of Mul is extremely, extremely difficult. However, we saw one group of players who went all out and challenge it and we were all relieved.)

With that said, we will not be lowering the difficulty because there are people who feel that the battle is too difficult. Instead, we would like players to collect better gear from slightly easier content, work out a battle strategies, and rise to the challenge.

Of course, because of this, there will be a need to help players gradually strengthen themselves and have a wide selection of moderate content to choose from, so we would like to do our best to fill that need.

Whether or not something is difficult varies from person to person, and this is where a lot of discrepancies arise, but when creating content we need to draw a line somewhere and balance things. We would like you all to be somewhat aware of where the lines have been drawn for highly difficult content.

*In the future, we will look into revamping the difficulty of older content when higher-tier content is added.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/28187-Adjustments-to-Embrava-and-Perfect-Defense?p=378811#post378811

The italicized part has me lost for words..Smiley: bah

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 3:53pm by Szabo
#2 Nov 15 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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yeah that is MESSED UP. What the **** is the point of content players can't beat? It's ridiculous. I hope that is a mistranslation. I'd rather they NOT spend already limited development time making content that cannot be beat.

Maybe if they double the size of the dev team and start making some more fun content that the vast majority of the playerbase can enjoy - maybe then they can have their giggles with unbeatable content, but god at the moment we need more content that is enjoyable and casual. Enough of this stuff that can only consistently be beat with 3rd party add-ons and/or ridiculously strict party setups

I'm letting my sub lapse this month because I'm bored. Can only do the same old crap (what they call "doing easier content to improve gear") for so long before it gets boring. I'd really like some more paths to decent gear, and more fun content that can be casually taken on by a few friends or a pick up group. Just not even being able to participate in most of what has been added in the last half year makes me slightly annoyed. I guess I really don't feel like I need to pay a subscription for content I can't access.

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 2:01pm by Olorinus
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#3 Nov 15 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, that explains Absolute Virtue.
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#4 Nov 15 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Camate wrote:

<snip>
Whether or not something is difficult varies from person to person, and this is where a lot of discrepancies arise, but when creating content we need to draw a line somewhere and balance things. We would like you all to be somewhat aware of where the lines have been drawn for highly difficult content.


In other words "Use hacks and cheats ******** or you're not getting anywhere until the content is no longer relevant. Now shut up." To me it just furthers proves the FFXI *really* can't balance worth a **** and use this as their excuse to not even bother trying anymore.

Olorinus wrote:
yeah that is MESSED UP. What the **** is the point of content players can't beat?


It gives the developers something to circle jerk about and laugh at. That's pretty much about it.

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Well, that explains Absolute Virtue.


And original Pandemonium Warden.

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 4:48pm by Viertel
#5 Nov 15 2012 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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In theory, this is fine. You want some content that's more difficult to beat than others to justify the better items.

In practice... well, I'm not entirely sure I trust the devs to understand reasonable difficulty levels. FFXI gear doesn't tier-up all that well; some gear is certainly better than others, but I can think of very few pieces that are worlds above game changers outside of the relic / empy weapons.
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#6 Nov 15 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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There's also the issue of exclusivity from an HNM standpoint. Someone may be a very good, very well geared player on his own, but for whatever reason he annoyed the leader of Giant HNM Shell four years ago, (read: did not kiss up enough in shouts one day) and has been shut out from endgame on his server ever since.

He has to either transfer to a server and leave all his friends behind if he hopes to join an HNM that does this content regularly, or hope to get lucky and join a decent pickup group.
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#7 Nov 15 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Difficulty doesn't bug me. Fake difficulty does. And fake difficulty is what SE thrives on between insta-kill TP moves and obsession with the RNG. Add a dash of time limits, both within the content and accessing it, and you get the perfect storm of people ****** off with what they're given.

Not all jobs will grow equally depending on what gear is offered. Early in FFXI, there was very little to make Cures stronger. Grab a light staff and everyone was pretty much equal with equal tier spells. Eventually we saw more gear, WHM getting to 50% easier than other jobs, but eventually most the people you'd care to have cast Cure could do it. Then SE further tweaks the Cure formula to better include Healing skill and MND. That's fine. That actually helps to translate to a degree of growth for a character. Meanwhile, you've still got skills like Enhancing Magic that do jack for certain spells within its family. It's something that could change, but also with the caveat of respect toward breaking RDM's +2 set and not wanting to see that happen without specific regard for it.

SE's otherwise backed themselves into a corner with the sidegrade game. If you want a challenge treadmill, you need a gear treadmill, and that means equipment steadily replacing older gear as you progress further along. This also gets harder to do as you insist on keeping numbers small, for reasons suggested above where an improvement might not seem worth all the hassle you'd have to go through just to acquire it. This is also why people will give stuff like higher tier prestige weapons the bird or not bother to touch NNI. Challenge skill and reflexes, not jump straight to patience. Ditch all the timers (for completion and rage), improve mob AI, make the environment mean something. Don't be afraid to make uber gear, either. If this means dropping the PS2 fossil so the entirety of stats can actually be displayed, go for it. Such can be at the end of that difficulty tunnel, but you also shouldn't have to look at a cliff from what you had before to then, like was the case for prestige weapons for some classes before merit WS.

And uncap merit categories. Then you can start balancing the tough **** under the assumption a given job would have all their skills maxed.
#8 Nov 15 2012 at 6:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
With that said, we will not be lowering the difficulty because there are people who feel that the battle is too difficult. Instead, we would like players to collect better gear from slightly easier content, work out a battle strategies, and rise to the challenge.


Well why is it that when legitimate strategies (i.e. no hacks or cheats) do pop up, they're nerfed into uselessness?

Playerbase: Wow, this is pretty challenging. We need some type of strategy. Aha! I have it!

SE: Yeah, we're gonna nerf that. You guys need to work on battle strategies.

Playerbase: Wow, this is pretty challenging. We need some type of strategy. Aha! I have it!

SE: Yeah, we're gonna nerf that. You guys need to work on battle strategies.

Playerbase: Wow, this is pretty challenging. We need some type of strategy. Aha! I have it!

SE: Yeah, we're gonna nerf that. You guys need to work on battle strategies.

Etc...

It seems like we're being punished because of the inadequacies of the dev team. It's not our fault that they're not creative enough to implement difficult content that is actually fair at the same time.

Quote:
And uncap merit categories. Then you can start balancing the tough sh*t under the assumption a given job would have all their skills maxed.


You posted this, as I was editing my post. I'd like to add to that by saying, that we really should pick a "main" job and be able to merit that to levels far beyond an abyssea burned job. Now that anyone can burn any job to 99 and +2 it with ease, there needs to be some way to make your "main" stand out. I'm not saying we should nerf anything, but rather we should have to pick one job, that we absolutely excel at. That job should be capable of things that someone who burned it up in 2 weeks, cannot do.








Edited, Nov 15th 2012 7:17pm by Fermion

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 7:31pm by Fermion
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#9 Nov 15 2012 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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Fermion wrote:
Quote:
And uncap merit categories. Then you can start balancing the tough sh*t under the assumption a given job would have all their skills maxed.


You posted this, as I was editing my post. I'd like to add to that by saying, that we really should pick a "main" job and be able to merit that to levels far beyond an abyssea burned job. Now that anyone can burn any job to 99 and +2 it with ease, there needs to be some way to make your "main" stand out. I'm not saying we should nerf anything, but rather we should have to pick one job, that we absolutely excel at. That job should be capable of things that someone who burned it up in 2 weeks, cannot do.

Yeah, I always wanted a way to define your 'main' job. Merit WS almost did this, but weren't so constrained enough to a single job to really fit such purpose (plus few jobs need their merit WS to be competitive).

Something to put a real gap between a 'career' player of a job and someone who burned it up last week, besides magic skill and whatnot.
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#10 Nov 15 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Szabo wrote:
So today Camate gave us this message:

Camate wrote:

... Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey floor 100, they were designed to be difficult without very good gear and a high skill level 3rd party cheats



FTFY

I don't want to get off on a rant here but GIVE ME A BREAK S-E

You want to have difficult content, I am REAL good with that, I got no problem with it at all. But the content you are delivering is not difficult content so as long as you are an "Empy Heavy DD", one of the jobs that serve some purpose to buff a "Heavy DD" to zerg like status and/or use 3rd party cheats to beat.

I want tough content that lets the rest of the jobs enjoy tough battles that actually last longer then the time it takes to buff a zerg. I don't want 24 hour marathons, I want something that can be killed in 30-45 minutes. I want content that does not require a "zerg" as the ONLY reasonable way to win. Big battles where Enfeebles matter, where real timing and skill matters. Where the use of 2 hours is not mandatory but if done at the right time can make a difference. You know, something where a dual boxed curebot is totally useless. Battles with rapid fire status effects that require a SKILLED mage to interpret, and act to resolve. Battles where I don't have to worry about someone getting one shotted while I waste my time keeping up a haste rotation.

I want to see the affects of Skillchains and Magic Bursts to be significant enough to MATTER so we can get away from this LoLzerg mentality that dumbs this game down. Battles that require teamwork during the battle. I want to see content that is so touch and go / nip and tuck that you don't know that you're going to win till the mob drops, battles that keep you on the edge of your seat. And when that happens, I don't want to be forced into waiting 72 hours or collecting 17 key items or killing 9 other mobs in order to be able to do it again. And when I kill it, I want TH to matter, I don't want a guaranteed drop, but I also don't want a 1% drop... FFS I am an actual 0/111 on a k-club over the last 5 years.... 5 years! It's about time isn't it? Toss it in the box next time will ya? I think I've more then paid my dues.

Skill should not equal gear or weapons or buffs or the use of 3rd party tools. It should equate only to how hard and how smart we are working on this side of the keyboard within the rules of engagement to create an advantage on the battlefield.

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#11 Nov 15 2012 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
Something to put a real gap between a 'career' player of a job and someone who burned it up last week, besides magic skill and whatnot.

This is tricky because I personally hate telling people you can't have multiple "careers" within the game, which is basically what merits currently do with their restrictions. Gear is a temporary distinction of its own, while others would also defend spell rarity for mages, which I wouldn't because they're rare for all the wrong reasons.

But as an example, I mentioned more uber gear in my last post. Let's say you get your AF+1, Relic+2, and Emp+2 for a particular slot. Enter a quest to merge them all into one piece. No, not collect 500 shinryu anuses. Not full Legion clears. Just something difficult enough to require a party, and at best, locked out to maybe upgrading one piece of gear a week. So, in 5 weeks, the truly dedicated DRKs would have their "Legendary" tier, while the casuals may have 1 or 2 pieces, maybe split across multiple jobs.

But that's just a start. You can put spells, JAs, WS, or even Job Traits behind similar questing. ****, BLUs could get ways to unlock more spell points. While you'll inevitably get your asses who demand Perfect X or GTFO, particularly those types who'd never help someone get to such a point, it'd be a bit more complex than just throwing more EXP at it or chilling in Abyssea with a pocket WHM.
#12 Nov 15 2012 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I meant more of a persistent gap. Something you'd have to give up on one job to get on another.

FFXI's greatest strength is having one character able to do anything, but people dinging into full Empy+2 for a job, or getting Ragnarok and having <10 Great Sword skill is just ******* silly.

There is no advantage in being 100% devoted to a job. You level 99 in a week, spend your merits, get your gear, **** you can even store 90% of it on the moogle or elsewhere now so inventory isn't even a factor, and you're 99% as good as someone who has been playing a job for nine years.

Merits were the definition of this a long time ago, but now they're trivial. There needs to be some sort of lock-in mechanic to at least loosely tie a character to a job, and it needs to be strong enough to make a character specialized in a job actually desirable over a character not specialized.

Currently it's 10% of the work for 95% of the effectiveness. I hate to say that FFXI jobs have become what I hate about character handling in other MMOs: Disposable, trivial, impersonal.
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#13 Nov 15 2012 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Fermion wrote:
Quote:
With that said, we will not be lowering the difficulty because there are people who feel that the battle is too difficult. Instead, we would like players to collect better gear from slightly easier content, work out a battle strategies, and rise to the challenge.


Well why is it that when legitimate strategies (i.e. no hacks or cheats) do pop up, they're nerfed into uselessness?


because the playerbase (super casuals mostly on the official forums) complained about it. SE does sometimes give us good things (Embrava, PD, etc.) Then some high and might player of yore that hasn't played in 6 years comes back, complains the game isn't what is used to be (!!!) and our good things get taken away.

Your hyopthetical is not really an accurate potrayal of cause and effect.

Want good things, start making your voice heard on the official forums and for every idiot, you'll need to post 1,000 times to convince SE that the other position is idiocy.
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#14 Nov 15 2012 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well I meant more of a persistent gap. Something you'd have to give up on one job to get on another.

Thing is, what you perceive a reward for dedication, I'm seeing as a penalty for diversification if it eventually boils down to your 19 other jobs always being inferior even if you can put the same work into them. Yes, dinging into gear takes a bit of fun out of it, and we seem to be on the same page that it shouldn't be all about EXP. On the gear end, I don't find more storage options a bad thing, but the fact you get job groupings on stuff (WAR/PLD/DRK/SAM/DRG as a somewhat common grouping) basically lends itself to this "quick path" to progress. Split that up for the individual jobs with gear even better flavored to their stats, and suddenly people aren't geared to the nines as quickly. They can still get there, as I believe should be possible, just perfect gear for one job won't mean you have it for the related jobs.
#15 Nov 15 2012 at 9:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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They never were big on letting players have simple character progression. The only time they ever did that was a mistake. Creating the game in their own vision is all that ever mattered. Tedious time sinks and silly hurdles were always a big part of game design. Difficult fights are one thing, but s-e seems to equate difficulty with low drop rates or artificial barriers and gimmicks like instant death or not being in range when the AoE one shots happen. Challenge requiring player skill is not the same as spamming an event a hundred times until the random generator pops out the one in a thousand drop. It's kind of like trying to get the golden gumball in the penny arcade, you can spend hundreds of dollars or get it in a few tries. Luck is not the same as challenge at all.

Edited, Nov 16th 2012 12:04am by Melphina
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#16 Nov 15 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, can we please have another scathing editorial by the good people of Zam? This is just getting stupid again.
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#17 Nov 16 2012 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI's greatest strength is having one character able to do anything, but people dinging into full Empy+2 for a job, or getting Ragnarok and having <10 Great Sword skill is just ******* silly.


What is so unusual about that? It's called twinking, and it's been done in countless games before this one.

I played Diablo 2 before I played this, and it was sure rampant in that game.

I don't think it's really any more unusual than people being able to reach max level from scratch in a day or two.
#18 Nov 16 2012 at 5:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thing is, what you perceive a reward for dedication, I'm seeing as a penalty for diversification if it eventually boils down to your 19 other jobs always being inferior even if you can put the same work into them.


And that's the central problem. SE's idea of "need absolute best gear to have a chance at X" means that every player in the alliance needs to "main" no whatever job their playing. If your friend's main is WAR, yet you have a few others main on WAR, well sorry to your friends and now you gotta go /shout for a "main" BRD, DRK, SAM, MNK or ~whatever~, even if your friend has that job geared and leveled.

So no, the idea of there being some magical bonus to going to a menu and choosing one job to confer some sort of super bonus doesn't work in actual gameplay. FFXI's entire game system is designed around having multiple jobs and gear sets, thus diversity will always reign supreme.
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#19 Nov 16 2012 at 8:47 AM Rating: Default
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I'll post in the Official Forum since those are the only opinions SE is going to listen to, but I think it's perfectly fine to have a filter to weed out all but the best possible players for certain, current, content. I do not want my main jobs to be grouped in the same company as mere Empy+2 players or worse (e.g., Aurore/Perle/Teal). Those players should have to put in a certain amount of work to catch up or the company risks disenfranchising it's most loyal players for the sake of recent subscribes/re-subscribes. Good call in my opinion. (Please notice the keywords "certain" and "current", which are crucial in my first sentence before you go on an ultra-casual tirade.)

What I will suggest is that overall content needs to become more skill based vs. luck or time based. I'd rather learn strategies that I can conduct with 3 to 5, 6-11, or 12 to 17 other players than simply do an event 100 times and hope to get gear one of those times. For example, even a team geared with 6 optimal jobs, all of the best gear from other areas of FFXI isn't going to be able to get around pants on head, Ralph Wiggum lamp order in NNI. However, that team will do a lot better than the other 99.9% at kill speed and eventually be able to develop strategems for getting through more difficult floors quicker (e.g., kill 5 flans but avoid gears, particularly the 3 in the first room that you need to ranged pull so that some/all of your DD can get to the actual 5 flans, all in less than 1.5 minutes average per floor). I'm okay with the latter. I'd be better with actual strategies.

It seems the only two strategies SE has ever actually developed are kindegarten level aspects to game strategy in the form of skillchains, magic bursts and procs. We have a wealth of actual RPG knowledge to be drawn on. Originally this was turn based, then Ito-san developed the ATB system for FFIV (whch corresponding Japanese and US patents granted on this system, illustrating creative innovation capacity). While I don't think the CTB system introduced in FFX would work in an MMO, the concept of Overdrives for special tactical moves, requiring special button input to increase effectiveness is a basic skill element that should be re-examined. Another element to look at would be strung together skill chains whereby a final, more powerful attack, defense, cure, aura, etc. could be achieved (a la Concurrences in FFXII) - we have nothing like this in FFXI right now. As with GF in FVIII, these are mere timed occurences that must happen at the right time, so they are simple elements of skill but they are still better than "oh crap we didn't guess correctly, run over" elements. In other words, I'd rather be penalized for things I failed at doing versus being penalized because of luck. SE needs to do a better job introducing more barriers to us doing our jobs well, and stop introducing luck barriers except in rare cases.
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#20 Nov 16 2012 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually that would be an enormously fun dungeon/instance event - force you into a CTB system for the duration of the fight. And instead of a hard time limit, have a limited number of moves per player.

Do it, SE. DO EEEEET
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#21 Nov 16 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
Yeah, I always wanted a way to define your 'main' job.


Say "X is my main job." Then go out and treat it as such. There doesn't need to be a system in place for this. If you're good at your job that will speak for itself.

Quote:
Merit WS almost did this, but weren't so constrained enough to a single job to really fit such purpose (plus few jobs need their merit WS to be competitive).

Something to put a real gap between a 'career' player of a job and someone who burned it up last week, besides magic skill and whatnot.


You're ignoring the possibilities that this person who "burned it up last week" doesn't intend to make that job their "main" job, and that they may actually be better at it than someone who's spent all their time on it.
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#22 Nov 16 2012 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
I'll post in the Official Forum since those are the only opinions SE is going to listen to, but I think it's perfectly fine to have a filter to weed out all but the best possible players for certain, current, content. I do not want my main jobs to be grouped in the same company as mere Empy+2 players or worse (e.g., Aurore/Perle/Teal). Those players should have to put in a certain amount of work to catch up or the company risks disenfranchising it's most loyal players for the sake of recent subscribes/re-subscribes. Good call in my opinion. (Please notice the keywords "certain" and "current", which are crucial in my first sentence before you go on an ultra-casual tirade.)


I totally have no problem with what you are saying here - as long as -all new and current- events aren't overly restrictive. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. At this time, most of what's been added in the last six months is completely unfriendly to anyone who hasn't maxed out abyssea and gotten lucky on T3 VW Jeuno NMs (etc) and spent millions of gil on key bits of tradable gear.

Especially now that the gil fountain has been turned off - it is important to remember that it isn't actually simple for players to catch up in this game. I understand you saying that you only want to play with the 20-50 players on your server that you think are worthy of your presence - but the game can't run on just you and the 50 people that you think are good enough to party with you.

Especially with less people doing abyssea (I almost never see shouts for abby anymore) - and those doing abyssea mostly doing it in small/d-boxed teams that don't exactly help others get caught up - how the heck is a new player supposed to get to the point where you think they are good enough to have access to the content THEY ARE PAYING FOR? (Especially since +2 players aren't even good enough for you)

Crikes, people aren't even really doing pil/akvan/kaggen shouts very much anymore - I can't remember the last time I saw someone shouting an atma run.

Fact is, if the only events/content newer players are welcome in is older content, they are always going to be struggling and playing mostly alone, since the playerbase is always trying to move on to newer things (fair enough it gets boring doing the same crap forever and ever)

Even people, like me, with a handful of +2s and lots of atma, able to handle myself in abyssea - I'm bloody sick of it. It's boring doing last year's content - all the while knowing that as I am doing it - I am going to be fxcked over for the content that has been released recently because by the time I'm "good enough" people will have moved on.

There is nothing wrong with having a smattering of hardmode content - as long as -the majority- of subscribers aren't locked out of the majority of new content.
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#23 Nov 16 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's really no effective mid-tier content. I guess that's what VW is supposed to be? Maybe? It's generally not that hard until you reach some of the final tiers, but the drop rates are some of the worst ever recorded in the history of FFXI (and that's saying quite a lot). Even then, while some items are clear upgrades, many are not much better than what we get from Abyssea.

I dunno. I've gone through Abyssea, the AH, and VW and put together some effective sets. I have a level 90 emp for one of my jobs, and am working on a second. I've worked on shoring up my macros and making myself as efficient as possible. I always use the best food I can for the situation. I feel like I've done as much as I'm able, and it still seems like I'm not prepared to beat what lies beyond VW. Now, I'm sure many would say, "Well maybe you're just bad." It's possible. I certainly have no delusions of grandeur that I'm God's gift to gaming. Still, it feels like the tools (gear, stats, abilities) I need to take myself to the next level either don't exist or are effectively out of reach. I know I can improve with 1500 HMPs, but that's beyond me right now. Should that really be necessary to move beyond the VW "stage?" If so, then I suppose I'm stuck forever. I guess I'm supposed to be satisfied with that and just keep on playing. It doesn't feel very satisfying though.
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#24 Nov 16 2012 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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I certainly wish there was more ways to progress in gear. I'm in that awkward position I didn't make an empyrean first time around and everyone seems to have made one, so I'm excluded from future events in that way.
#25 Nov 16 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if Voidwatch wasn't so soul destroying and meeble burrows wasn't structured in such a PUG unfriendly way. Like I am sure I am good enough to do well in meeble - but with all my friends on break and the event not being set up to really work with PUGs (I've NEVER seen a shout for it)... I am bored bored bored.Can only solo dynamis so many times (especially when the zones are seemingly ALWAYS packed these days)

Edited, Nov 16th 2012 11:27am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#26 Nov 16 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI is a game about math. Provided everyone has the reflexes of a potato and can read at the sixth grade level, the strategy is going to be executed and players will successfully hit their buttons in the right order. (You know, the exact same order they use for every other fight.)

In light of this, SE can produce entry-level content where anyone can participate, but that's a double-edged sword. If you can clear the fight with Perle DDs, what's the point of getting your fancy glowing armor and the sword with spikes on it?

Further, if content can be cleared by just anyone, it will be trivial to the dedicated players. Clearing abyssea with empy-wielding, +2 equipped, atma maximized 99's is like setting the game to 'easy' mode. I'm not an elitist, I'm not mad about 'rewards without effort' or whatever, it's just the nature of the beast that content designed for 'anyone' becomes a joke once you have decent equipment/stats.

Again, it's math.

Now, on the flipside, if you need the spiky sword and glowy armor to clear an event, suddenly a large chunk of the playerbase is excluded. The rewards are bigger and better, so why would anyone go back? Now you've segregated the game between haves and have nots, and it's virtually impossible for the have nots to get in. You need those endgame drops to be accepted to an endgame group.

I think it all smacks of an unsustainable system. 'Endgame' is a treadmill where you get bigger and better rewards so that you can clear more content to get bigger and better rewards. The game is building itself up like a tower rather than branching out and expanding, and the consequence is a perpetual grind to nowhere.

tl;dr: The inevitable consequence of 'endgame' content centered around gear is that the content will either become trivial (abyssea) or exclude a large portion of the playerbase. The game boils down to math, either you make your numbers too big and curbstomp or they make the numbers too big and only a few people can keep up.
#27 Nov 16 2012 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't other games have scaleable content?

Why is there such a huge gulf in between lol and good player that is swimming in 1% drop sidegrades?
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#28 Nov 16 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Why is there such a huge gulf in between lol and good player that is swimming in 1% drop sidegrades?


The real gap is smaller than it looks. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any content which can't be cleared by a group of skilled players in sensible AH gear.

Thing is, those drops are a way of proving you have endgame experience. No one wants to invite a clueless newbie who doesn't know what he's doing, and while that "amazing" body armor may only provide 3% more damage than the one you can buy off the AH, it shows that you have put time and effort into your character and that you've succeeded at endgame before.

Just looking at someone, you can't tell if they're a smart person in AH gear with good macro-swaps and player skill or if they're one of those potato-people I mentioned above, who will somehow manage to diaga the supertanked adds because they wanted to try kiting as a WHM. In theory, someone with rare gear knows what they're doing.

(Also, the kind of people who are adamant about super hardcore content tend to be the kind of people who want to be part of the elite crowd, and they can't be an elite crowd if they don't exclude anyone!)

tl;dr: Status symbols. Less "necessary tools for the job", more "showing up to the interview with a tie". Very few exceptions.
#29 Nov 16 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Don't other games have scaleable content?

Why is there such a huge gulf in between lol and good player that is swimming in 1% drop sidegrades?


This game requires you to have completed a lot of things just to get access to the good stuff. Just doing limbus required you to finish a storyline which could take months to finish. Salvage needs you to do assault on a regular basis, sky-related content required you to do almost every ZM mission. If you want to make money of a craft you need to get it to a really high level first and that cost stupid amounts of money. Heaven forbid you progress too fast! They need to slow you down with all these "wait until JP midnight" or "wait until conquest tally" which I think made me less likely to do them instead of just waiting. Missions are the absolute worst thing to try to get help with.

Everything in the game needs you to jump through at least 7 hoops and when you're about to go you're probably exhausted from just getting started. And trivial things like "return" from FFXIV or "heart stone" from WoW won't appear because of it would directly impact the economy of crafters.
#30 Nov 16 2012 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
I'll post in the Official Forum since those are the only opinions SE is going to listen to, but I think it's perfectly fine to have a filter to weed out all but the best possible players for certain, current, content. I do not want my main jobs to be grouped in the same company as mere Empy+2 players or worse (e.g., Aurore/Perle/Teal). Those players should have to put in a certain amount of work to catch up or the company risks disenfranchising it's most loyal players for the sake of recent subscribes/re-subscribes. Good call in my opinion. (Please notice the keywords "certain" and "current", which are crucial in my first sentence before you go on an ultra-casual tirade.)


I totally have no problem with what you are saying here - as long as -all new and current- events aren't overly restrictive. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. At this time, most of what's been added in the last six months is completely unfriendly to anyone who hasn't maxed out abyssea and gotten lucky on T3 VW Jeuno NMs (etc) and spent millions of gil on key bits of tradable gear.


Thanks for recognizing my opinion. I appreciate yours as well. I do agree that most new content is pretty exclusive, but that is just because there has been nearly no new content except for NNI and Legion in the last year. This content are the "least accepting" content (I couldn't think of a proper definition, since hard doesn't really accurately portray this content) introduced to date.

I do think finishing Abyssea and spending some gil on your gear, perhaps even millions, should be a pre-requisite to certain content, but it should be a fraction of what is introduced. I don't think T3 bodies need to be a pre-req, and my Mekira Mekogai, which I got on my 475th Kaggen, was neither what I would consider "luck" or helpful to NNI and ADL content I've done, using my WAR. Haven't done Legion yet.

Olorinus wrote:

Especially now that the gil fountain has been turned off - it is important to remember that it isn't actually simple for players to catch up in this game. I understand you saying that you only want to play with the 20-50 players on your server that you think are worthy of your presence - but the game can't run on just you and the 50 people that you think are good enough to party with you.


It's just as difficult for them as it was for me. I've never traded a single cruor for chocobo blinkers for gil. I haven't farmed Dynamis to sell currency in months (and this "fountain" is still around). My thief is gimp, I have no BST and DNC is a subjob. Gil should not be a problem for any determined person.

Olorinus wrote:

Especially with less people doing abyssea (I almost never see shouts for abby anymore) - and those doing abyssea mostly doing it in small/d-boxed teams that don't exactly help others get caught up - how the heck is a new player supposed to get to the point where you think they are good enough to have access to the content THEY ARE PAYING FOR? (Especially since +2 players aren't even good enough for you)

Crikes, people aren't even really doing pil/akvan/kaggen shouts very much anymore - I can't remember the last time I saw someone shouting an atma run.


Shout for it like the people who used to and already completed that content and don't shout anymore.

Olorinus wrote:

Fact is, if the only events/content newer players are welcome in is older content, they are always going to be struggling and playing mostly alone, since the playerbase is always trying to move on to newer things (fair enough it gets boring doing the same crap forever and ever)

Even people, like me, with a handful of +2s and lots of atma, able to handle myself in abyssea - I'm bloody sick of it. It's boring doing last year's content - all the while knowing that as I am doing it - I am going to be fxcked over for the content that has been released recently because by the time I'm "good enough" people will have moved on.

There is nothing wrong with having a smattering of hardmode content - as long as -the majority- of subscribers aren't locked out of the majority of new content.


100000000% agree. This is a problem because of the lack of content. The only recently introduced content (except for Meeble Bugged content) is catered towards what SE says here is meant for not very many. Abyssea was great because it reset the playing field and we all started over with a LOT of low upper level/mid upper level content to get through. Hopefully there is more of that volume when Adoulin comes out.


Edited, Nov 16th 2012 4:43pm by TheBarrister
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#31 Nov 17 2012 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't really like 'prerequisite' gear grinds. Yeah, sure, 10,000,000 gil is easy, but a lot of us have better things to do than pay money to do something more tedious than our real world jobs.

Grinding a bunch of gil and upgrading my gear felt productive back in the mid 2000's, as an unemployed teenager. Now, if I have to log on and do a mind numbing grind, I find my time is better spent getting some actual work done.

There are plenty of games where gear is an advantage rather than a mathematical prerequisite. In fact, I'd argue FFXI is one of them in almost every case.

The exception, of course, is DD jobs in a ridiculously buffed zerg situation. Even then, it's pretty much Relic/Empy or bust, since anything less is noteworthy but not gamebreaking. (I love my Epona's Ring, but I would be lying if I said it has ever made the difference between victory and defeat.)

Really, all SE has to do is stop making fights that have to be zerged / fights that can be zerged. If they do that, exclusion becomes more arbitrary and they don't have to make such ridiculous AoEs to kill an alliance in 60s flat.

I once thought the ridiculously tough mobs of 2004~ era endgame were silly, but I actually think I'd prefer longer fights to an endless zergfest.
#32 Nov 17 2012 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I think content should be difficult, and that yes there should be some content that seems impossible to beat (and maybe it is). However I do not like how SE has gone about implementing systems like these. We have had a lot of content that requires strategy, specific execution, specific gearing, and so on and so forth. Throughout the history of the game we have seen many events.

The largest issue and I think the biggest reason why people get agitated is not the smashing of their heads against the brick wall, but doing so with no apparent reward for doing it. SE really needs to implement some form of progression reward into their content, via a point system lets say like Einherjar. Where you may or may not clear the content in front of you but at least you are getting some type of reward for the effort you did put in...and in todays game that effort generally starts by assembling a group of adventurers. (In fact that is probably the largest hurdle to any content, finding 17 other @#%^s who want to smash their heads off walls too.)

I am down with wiping, I am cool with gear checks, skill checks, I am on board with specific reuirements and strategy building. But for the love of god SE you have to give us something whether we win or lose. You have to give us the illusion of being rewarded for progression. I would strongly suggest to SE (if they happen to read this post) that we need some type of point based system for all events, and ability to buy gear that will help us progress in said events. It is as simple as having an NPC sell base items for a certain number of points, and then having mobs drop specific items to upgrade these base items to +1, or dropping the +1 versions themselves. (kind of like you know the best content you ever released...in abyssea. Although the proc system can **** off).

Its one thing to develop hard content, it is another to do so without giving reason to do it...and no finally breaking the big bad boss isn't reward...look how many adjustments SE made because of AV, because players had found ways to slaughter AV SE nerfed numerous things, they severely limited the effectiveness of DRK Zegs, and they completely removed RDM ability to tank, two of the corner stone positions during the week of AV slaughter a few years back. (**** SE's video of how to beat AV properly had a RDM tanking it, so were we really breaking the mold on that one?)

Why take risk for no reward? Give us a reason to smash our heads off the wall and you will find more people will be willing to do so.

Edited, Nov 17th 2012 10:04am by rdmcandie

Edited, Nov 17th 2012 10:05am by rdmcandie

Edited, Nov 17th 2012 10:08am by rdmcandie
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