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Some clarification on Treasure HunterFollow

#1 Nov 10 2012 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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From one of the SE reps on the official forum.

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Happy Friday everyone!

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I wanted to share some information about Treasure Hunter.

This post might get a bit complicated since it is about Treasure Hunter, but that is the nature of the beast, as they say.

To shed some light of the background before I drop some knowledge bombs, there was a test performed by your fellow adventurers in Japan, and they noticed that after initially hitting the monster with maximum TH+ gear equipped and then switching to non-TH gear, the rate in which the TH value increased was reduced.

Now that you have the background…

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

There have been requests to make it so that it's possible to switch out TH+ gear after the TH effect is placed on a monster, but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27974-TH-Procing?p=377001#post377001
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#2 Nov 10 2012 at 8:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Am i jsut really drunk righ tnow, or is this the msot confusing post ever that ehye have ever relased?

Mabye both
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#3 Nov 10 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Basically they're saying THFs need to full-time TH gear if you care about increasing TH levels. The rate at which TH increases is dependent on the current TH level of the mob vs. your current total TH (traits + gear).
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#4 Nov 10 2012 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Basically what they are saying is despite the existence of half decent melee gear for thf, SE considers thf to be nothing but a TH *****.
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#5 Nov 10 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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You say Potato, I say Potato.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 10:04pm by Prim
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#6 Nov 10 2012 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
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I sincerely doubt SE did this to force you to wear TH gear.

They just wanted each successive proc to be a little rarer. Diminishing returns. The first proc, at your base TH level (n), has a 100% proc rate. The next one, n+1, has a lower rate. n+2 is lower than n+1, n+3 is lower than n+2, etc.

Since TH gear raises your base level, your base 'n' is high, and it drops when you take the gear off. So, you go from 'n=6' to 'n+3=6', and your proc rate drops accordingly.

tl;dr: Diminishing returns, interesting consequences of code. SE didn't make TH thief's main job, the playerbase did.
#7 Nov 10 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Prim wrote:
You say Potato, I say Potato.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 10:04pm by Prim

I say potatoe.
#8 Nov 10 2012 at 11:16 PM Rating: Default
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It seems I misinterpreted what the dev was saying. I reread the dev's post and I'm gonna agree with what everyone else was saying before and after this. You'll have to forgive me; I work retail and our staff has been cut in half due to unforeseeable circumstances for the duration of this holiday season. As a result I've been too tired to think straight when I get home.Since I was wrong I'm just going to remove the post.

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 7:19pm by Melphina
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#9 Nov 10 2012 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Basically a thief only needs maximum treasure hunter + equipment on for the first hit of any fight to provide maximum bonus.


Actually, what the guy is trying to say is that unequipping your TH gear after that first hit makes it so your chances of leveling TH up further are lowered, because the chance to TH level up is based on the difference between your current TH and the level of TH on the mob. Unequipping your TH gear after one hit will immediately put a big gap between those two levels and lower the subsequent proc rate.

Regardless, there are times when the stuff might be worth wearing throughout the whole fight, and there are times where it certainly is not. I think part of the job should be knowing how to identify the difference. The idiots who are ******** about WHOAMG I HAVE TO WEAR ALL MY ****** TH GEAR FULL TIME NOW QQ seem incapable of doing this, and probably deserve to be gimpy as a result IMO
#10 Nov 10 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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What he said.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 9:37pm by Raelix
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#11 Nov 10 2012 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Gonna edit this post out too. Same reason as before; in my half asleep mind I misinterpreted the dev's post (it still should have been worded better. raelix explains it far better than the dev did).

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 7:21pm by Melphina
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#12 Nov 10 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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Actually he just entirely contradicts himself in the same paragraph.
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#13 Nov 10 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Melphina wrote:
The dude made is so overcomplicated to explain stuff we already know. The wording is just gonna confuse people. All that matters is this bit

Quote:
Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.


Basically a thief only needs maximum treasure hunter + equipment on for the first hit of any fight to provide maximum bonus. I'll simplify his explanation via a pair of examples. Remember that a thief's maximum TH + gear bonus is +4 (thief's knife, relic hands, and rogue's poulaines +2), which when added to our base TH 3 trait is Treasure hunter 7


Actually it doesn't say that at all, it says "Ur Doin it wrong." It specifically says that TH grows at a set rate, and that what varies is the TH level. Which is your TH level vs the Mobs TH level. Which means you are required to continue meleeing in that gear until that specific point is met. Than keeping that gear on, if you take it off, now your TH level is less than the mobs and you begin to let the effect deteriorate at a set rate.

To me it sounds like TH is more so like a DNC samba in the sense the effect must be maintained, and reset every so often. In the sense that you keep the buff maintained through melee, and each time you see the TH level is X it is you recapping. (if for whatever reason you weren't hitting the mob and the buff was dropping.)

The bit you didn't quote pretty clearly says if you want the buff you gotta wear the stuff.

What SE is really saying here is "UR DOIN IT RONG"

Now what I really wanted to respond with.


Poor THF,

SE sends another job to the back of the bus. Essentially SE has stated you must now use level 70 gear to melee in. I wish you luck in your non abyssean endeavors (but hey at least you got to play in it!!!!!), If you want to hang out SCH is coming over around 4, and I think SMN said they might be out later.

~RDM

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 12:59am by rdmcandie

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 12:59am by rdmcandie
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#15 Nov 11 2012 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for telling us how something works 10 years after it was released, SE.


Well, you have to take into account that the ability to raise TH past the level you initially set it at is recent. Before they added that ability, you could just tag it once and you'd have the set TH level for the entire fight. They're addressing the new way that TH works (in that it can be increased through persistent meleeing).

What I got out of it, and what I've done some simple eyeball testing with since they announced this yesterday, was that the rate that your Treasure Hunter effect will increase improves if you maintain TH gear on. I have done several Behemoths before this weekend where I'd hit it at the start with full TH gear, then swap back into normal melee gear and then just melee it down, using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Feint to improve the chances of an increase whenever their timers were up. Despite my best efforts, I rarely saw past a TH increase past 9. Today, I did two different Behemoths while retaining full TH gear on after the initial hit. Without intentionally going out of my way to boost TH (like turning around and waiting till a JA was up) I got TH up to 12 on the first Behemoth and up to 11 on the second Behemoth.

I know that's hardly a significant test range to say anything concrete, but it did seem to at least somewhat support what was said in the announcement.
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#17 Nov 11 2012 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What I got out of it, and what I've done some simple eyeball testing with since they announced this yesterday, was that the rate that your Treasure Hunter effect will increase improves if you maintain TH gear on. I have done several Behemoths before this weekend where I'd hit it at the start with full TH gear, then swap back into normal melee gear and then just melee it down, using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Feint to improve the chances of an increase whenever their timers were up. Despite my best efforts, I rarely saw past a TH increase past 9. Today, I did two different Behemoths while retaining full TH gear on after the initial hit. Without intentionally going out of my way to boost TH (like turning around and waiting till a JA was up) I got TH up to 12 on the first Behemoth and up to 11 on the second Behemoth.

I know that's hardly a significant test range to say anything concrete, but it did seem to at least somewhat support what was said in the announcement.


I've noticed this kind of thing before too (also on Behemoth, strangely enough)

#18 Nov 11 2012 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Last edit (yay). I'm so looking forward to January right about now.

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 7:17pm by Melphina
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#19 Nov 11 2012 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
Thanks for telling us how something works 10 years after it was released, SE.


Well, you have to take into account that the ability to raise TH past the level you initially set it at is recent. Before they added that ability, you could just tag it once and you'd have the set TH level for the entire fight. They're addressing the new way that TH works (in that it can be increased through persistent meleeing).

What I got out of it, and what I've done some simple eyeball testing with since they announced this yesterday, was that the rate that your Treasure Hunter effect will increase improves if you maintain TH gear on. I have done several Behemoths before this weekend where I'd hit it at the start with full TH gear, then swap back into normal melee gear and then just melee it down, using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Feint to improve the chances of an increase whenever their timers were up. Despite my best efforts, I rarely saw past a TH increase past 9. Today, I did two different Behemoths while retaining full TH gear on after the initial hit. Without intentionally going out of my way to boost TH (like turning around and waiting till a JA was up) I got TH up to 12 on the first Behemoth and up to 11 on the second Behemoth.

I know that's hardly a significant test range to say anything concrete, but it did seem to at least somewhat support what was said in the announcement.


TH+ gear has existed for a long, long time and they're basically saying that if you remove TH gear the TH effect resets to the default level (TH1 if you have Treasure Hunter 1 for example, the TH+1 will only make it Treasure Hunter 2 if you keep TH+1 equipped)

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 5:58am by Zelduh

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 6:00am by Zelduh


As Melphina said though, that's not how it works. Even taking the gear off, it's still going to remain at the same set value that you struck it with (Struck the mob with TH7 on, and it stays at least at TH7), and you can see that during a fight. You can swap your gear out after the initial hit, and the next "Treasure Hunter effect has increased to a value of X" or whatever message will always be at least one number higher than the TH you struck the mob with. If it reset to the default value, then the message when it increased would be that it increased to a value of 4, but that's not what it does, and I doubt it's an error with the chat log.
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#20 Nov 12 2012 at 2:36 AM Rating: Default
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I actually agree with what they are doing, want TH - simply use it. I know I want to use my other stuffs but at the end of the day only reason my THF comes out is for its TH.

Only problem I have with TH is the atma.. i dont want to buy the addon just for TH... but I know I will!
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#21 Nov 12 2012 at 3:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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None of you have what's being discussed right and it's beginning to nauseate me.

Hit a mob with TH7. Bam, TH7 on it.

Okay, good?

Keep your TH gear on and let's say you have a hypothetical 10% chance to upgrade it to TH8.

You wail on it until it's up to TH10 now, right? Let's say your chance of another upgrade at TH10 is hypothetically 2%.

Okay, new mob:

Tack TH7 on it. Good, TH7. Still with me?

Take off your TH gear except Thief's Knife for some reason, so you're wearing TH4 now.

You hit the mob with your TH4 when it already has TH7 on. Your TH is three levels below what's established on the mob. Your chance to upgrade goes down by three 'bumps' to the rate we established for TH7.gear@TH10.mob, 2%.

Geddit?

Wearing TH7 and hitting a mob with TH7 procced: you get my hypothetical 10% chance to upgrade
Wearing TH7 and hitting a mob with TH10 procced: you get my hypothetical 2% chance to upgrade because you're three levels under it
Wearing TH4 and hitting a mob with TH7 procced: you get my hypothetical 2% chance to upgrade because you're the same three levels disparate.

That's what this is about:

The higher the TH on the mob relative to the TH you're hitting it with, the lower your chance to upgrade it.
This is relative to your current equipped TH, so taking off TH lowers your chance to proc upgrades just as if the TH value had been raised as much as you took off.

Now can we please discuss whether they did or did not affirm this mechanic?

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 1:18am by Raelix
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#22 Nov 12 2012 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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That's how I read it too Raelix.
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#23 Nov 12 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
None of you have what's being discussed right and it's beginning to nauseate me.


To be fair, the explanation you gave is much more clearly written than the SE comments (which seem to be begging for misinterpretation). I do agree that I think they're saying what you explained.

Regardless, I fully expect this to result in lots of ignorant THFs simply fulltiming TH gear without understanding that it's really a situational thing for certain fights where you really want to focus only on upgrading TH level to get the most out of a hard to obtain/expensive pop item (say, Behemoth). That being said... I think it's pretty much consensus at this point that once you have a high level of TH, additional level ups provide fairly minor benefit in drop rates anyway.
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#24 Nov 12 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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Apply this logic to TH.
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#25 Nov 12 2012 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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jtftaru wrote:
From one of the SE reps on the official forum.

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... By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.


This is what I got out of it.


Then I read this:

Quote:
Happy Friday everyone!


So... yeh, all clear now...
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#26 Nov 13 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Peimei wrote:
That's how I read it too Raelix.

And it sounds like exactly how it should work, or at least how a lazy coder would do it.

So the gripe from THFs is that you... have to wear TH... to get high TH values... neh?

Really? That's what they're complaining about now?
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