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#52 Nov 12 2012 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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You've given this matter a concerning amount of thought and attention.
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#53 Nov 12 2012 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I always do. Granted I did state it would happen long ago, actually I might even try and find the thread.

(I gave up....)


Edited, Nov 13th 2012 2:17am by rdmcandie
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#54 Nov 13 2012 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I always do. Granted I did state it would happen long ago, actually I might even try and find the thread.


We get it. We're impressed. *rolls eyes*
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#55 Nov 13 2012 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
You've given this matter a concerning amount of thought and attention.

There's a reason I made the Jesus reference earlier. It's almost like a religious zealotry based on faith that lacking habitual dickheads is somehow a bad thing and those not part of the cult are a pox upon humanity. Meanwhile, questions are still answered and I certainly don't see people chasing others off when it's unwarranted. Not everyone needs to write short novels to get anything out of a forum, let alone post at all. If anything, it's a healthier environment when people can come and go without obligation, because the alternative seems to be, "Stay until we find your replacement or we're going doooooown!"

This is a cross-game site. If someone wants a dead set of forums, look to the Rift section. Yet, I know Trion's official boards are lively and the game itself is running healthily. People post there because they have things to talk about, for better (discussion about the Storm Legion expansion) or worse (nerf xyz because my abc isn't as good!). Threads get locked, some people banned. People whine about the trolls. The true contributors actually contribute. Fundamentally, that's no different than here, only the difference lies in volume.

There's only so many times we can explain how Abyssea lights work, what procs are, or other incidental nuances. Conversation can't happen much beyond explanation because there are not unknowns relative to the knowledge. Come Adoulin, we'll have people talking about quests/missions, DAT mines to drool over, how to unlock the new jobs and how they work, how the "exploration" system is going to work, and basically any other thing we can speculate about and dissect. Even of the old stuff, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone who either doesn't know what they should be looking for or can't quite grasp info that's out there and are seeking clarity other than the fear of being perceived an idiot for not knowing something in such an old game with so much info there. And that's just being kind on the sentiment others had expressed. Some people do indeed learn more readily through discourse, and I welcome such, just as I'm sure others do, too. For now, Szabo's been pretty good about posting dev notes as they come up. That's about all we can ask for right now.

Funnily enough, I recall bitching about subjects that get brought up a lot, usually by new posters. Or older topics like RDM melee (We have a drinking game for that yet?). While my advice for such angry people then was to just ignore those posts, it does present an irony of a more active forum by virtue of more postings apparently not being a good thing, either. Inherently, I dislike the false activity +1 threads or senseless flame wars present. For the few that may thrive on resulting drama, others lose interest, make note of troublesome posters, avoid threads they start or post within, and basically find a possible hangout contaminated with the equivalent of internet litter. Fortunately, a forum isn't required to play FFXI or any MMO for that matter. They're supplements and should be stress-free fun of their own accord with people who share a similar hobby.

Edited, Nov 13th 2012 4:43am by Seriha
#56 Nov 13 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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Fortunately, a forum isn't required to play FFXI or any MMO for that matter. They're supplements and should be stress-free fun of their own accord with people who share a similar hobby.


Wrong. Forums are a portion of what makes MMO's what they are. There is one such thread that is still alive today even though it is limping along, that help bring together two communities after a merger. It is essentially that which you despise, a senseless +1 thread, with one goal, to have the members of the Lakshmi and Garuda servers get to know each other some, and develop friendships which would evolve in game.

That senseless thread introduced a lot of players after the server merger, perhaps people that otherwise would have never met in game at all. It is still going today, and new members to the server post in it occasionally and get to meet the people on that server. It is a community building thread, whose purpose has very little to do with FFXI itself, and more to do with the people. For me it provided me with manyl new friends, some of which I even chat with outside of the game, and outside of the forums.

Which is exactly what gaming forums are designed for. Are they tools to answer questions. Yes. But they are first and foremost a place for you to meet, and socialize with the very people who are enjoying (or not enjoying) the same game(s) that you do. They are there to make a strong community based on a common interest. That is what makes forums thrive.

Drama is one of the easiest way to build community threads, it draws lines in the sand and shows the new posters the ropes. It gives them experience so they can grow to be part of the community, and not simply pigeon posters swooping in to ask their question then retreating to the sky to wait until the next time. Forums need their Drama, forums need their Rogs, and they need their white knights. Just like any healthy community.




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#57 Nov 13 2012 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Part of the issue is also that SE introduced their own official forums, so players no longer have to rely solely on sites like ZAM for their community building efforts.
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#58 Nov 13 2012 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Part of the issue is also that SE introduced their own official forums, so players no longer have to rely solely on sites like ZAM for their community building efforts.


and that site has plenty of drama threads that keep the people posting and coming back, hitting F5 and building strong community. Where as this site has none of that anymore, because a little over a year ago the circle jerk decreed it.
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#59 Nov 13 2012 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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No one is stopping you from posting sh*t to stir up the bees. By your own logic, we would welcome you as our hero! Smiley: nod
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#60 Nov 13 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Part of the issue is also that SE introduced their own official forums, so players no longer have to rely solely on sites like ZAM for their community building efforts.


and that site has plenty of drama threads that keep the people posting and coming back, hitting F5 and building strong community. Where as this site has none of that anymore, because a little over a year ago the circle jerk decreed it.


Notrly

The two sites are vastly different.

On this site, generally people that don't know what they are talking about:

(a) get ignored (e.g. "I'm posting in the WAR forums, I'm a 37 WAR, my job is too powerful."...wtf?);
(b) get corrected (e.g., "CoP is so hard, how come they couldn't make it easier"....uh they did?);
(c) get advice (e.g., 1,073th I just returned thread, how should I do XYZ).

On the "official" forums, the developers tend to cater to the lowest common denominator. Instead of the above, this is what happens:

(a) "Sure, we'll look into nerfing WAR. It must be needed since a brand spanking newbie without one limit break to her name said it...";
(b) "We are considering other ways of making already EZ mode content even easier";
(c) "Since new people are returning, we must take away good things like Embrava and PD from the players who have already done everything else. Instead we give you Evoliths. BARRANCE!"
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#61 Nov 13 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Much to my own surprise, I find myself back on these forums. Spending several years in real endgame somehow dragged me away from the outside-of-linkshell community aspects, and now I'm just relaxing and doing fun stuff like storyline, I'm attracted back here like a moth to the flame. And a lot of the posts I'm seeing here are either I'm Back type or from lower level players. Perhaps the ZAM forum could have a lively niche as the non-endgame place to be, like the old Ogaming forum that ZAM bought out all those years back. (I used to be a mod on Ogaming back in the day.)
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#62 Nov 13 2012 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Anybody wanna place bets on how many more times Rdmcandie uses the term "circle jerk" in this thread?

#64 Nov 13 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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Laverda wrote:
Much to my own surprise, I find myself back on these forums. Spending several years in real endgame somehow dragged me away from the outside-of-linkshell community aspects, and now I'm just relaxing and doing fun stuff like storyline, I'm attracted back here like a moth to the flame. And a lot of the posts I'm seeing here are either I'm Back type or from lower level players. Perhaps the ZAM forum could have a lively niche as the non-endgame place to be, like the old Ogaming forum that ZAM bought out all those years back. (I used to be a mod on Ogaming back in the day.)

Socially, that's largely how the place has historically been, but other sites would be more colorful in describing such in a typically derogatory manner (Barrister actually demonstrating a flavor of this above). Bonus points for frequent posters there being frequent posters here typically adopting selective amnesia of their own contributions or lack thereof. On its own, FFXI isn't a terribly newbie friendly game and there's a lot of competition out there nowadays. With basically no advertising out there, I suspect truly new players wind up hearing about the game through negative feedback from grizzled vets or those who got chased off for whatever reason. This is also why I'm pretty critical about SE needing to get good, new stuff out ASAP as unhappy players can lead to a volatile, unwelcoming community even without the negative elements internet anonymity tends to breed.

Even though I haven't had my sub up since the beginning of the year, I still don't mind hooking newbies up with info and am at the very least keeping my eyes peeled for new stuff that may coax me back. Even in context of limited releases since, I at least know where to look to either point a person there or relay data if a question can be exactly answered. While I'm of the mind I wouldn't suggest FFXI to truly new players these days, those that do choose to tough it out deserve the same kindnesses I'd received, spontaneous or no. And I think some vets forget the game is different now than it was in 2006 or so and simply climbing to 99 as a catch-all suggestion isn't going to automagically happen without help.
#65 Nov 13 2012 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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TheBarrister wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Part of the issue is also that SE introduced their own official forums, so players no longer have to rely solely on sites like ZAM for their community building efforts.


and that site has plenty of drama threads that keep the people posting and coming back, hitting F5 and building strong community. Where as this site has none of that anymore, because a little over a year ago the circle jerk decreed it.


Notrly

The two sites are vastly different.

On this site, generally people that don't know what they are talking about:

(a) get ignored (e.g. "I'm posting in the WAR forums, I'm a 37 WAR, my job is too powerful."...wtf?);
(b) get corrected (e.g., "CoP is so hard, how come they couldn't make it easier"....uh they did?);
(c) get advice (e.g., 1,073th I just returned thread, how should I do XYZ).

On the "official" forums, the developers tend to cater to the lowest common denominator. Instead of the above, this is what happens:

(a) "Sure, we'll look into nerfing WAR. It must be needed since a brand spanking newbie without one limit break to her name said it...";
(b) "We are considering other ways of making already EZ mode content even easier";
(c) "Since new people are returning, we must take away good things like Embrava and PD from the players who have already done everything else. Instead we give you Evoliths. BARRANCE!"


How are these sites even remotely comparable in that context. The mods/admins here have no control over what can and can not take place in any of the games they support. They may bring certain issues to light (or at least when it was a premiere site). That comparison is apples and oranges.
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#66 Nov 13 2012 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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CorncobWilly wrote:


Anybody wanna place bets on how many more times Rdmcandie uses the term "circle jerk" in this thread?



Can I bet on that?
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#67 Nov 14 2012 at 2:59 AM Rating: Default
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CorncobWilly wrote:


Anybody wanna place bets on how many more times Rdmcandie uses the term "circle jerk" in this thread?



Or how long before he compares message board trolls to Nelson Mandela?
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#68 Nov 14 2012 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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To be fair, I was certainly drunk.
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#69 Nov 14 2012 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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jtftaru wrote:
CorncobWilly wrote:


Anybody wanna place bets on how many more times Rdmcandie uses the term "circle jerk" in this thread?



Or how long before he compares message board trolls to Nelson Mandela?


Nah its more like a reverse Ghandi thing, spread peace and build nukes. But in the case of the forum troll, its spread nukes, and build peace. Or something like that.
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#70 Nov 14 2012 at 12:13 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Part of the issue is also that SE introduced their own official forums, so players no longer have to rely solely on sites like ZAM for their community building efforts.


and that site has plenty of drama threads that keep the people posting and coming back, hitting F5 and building strong community. Where as this site has none of that anymore, because a little over a year ago the circle jerk decreed it.


Notrly

The two sites are vastly different.

On this site, generally people that don't know what they are talking about:

(a) get ignored (e.g. "I'm posting in the WAR forums, I'm a 37 WAR, my job is too powerful."...wtf?);
(b) get corrected (e.g., "CoP is so hard, how come they couldn't make it easier"....uh they did?);
(c) get advice (e.g., 1,073th I just returned thread, how should I do XYZ).

On the "official" forums, the developers tend to cater to the lowest common denominator. Instead of the above, this is what happens:

(a) "Sure, we'll look into nerfing WAR. It must be needed since a brand spanking newbie without one limit break to her name said it...";
(b) "We are considering other ways of making already EZ mode content even easier";
(c) "Since new people are returning, we must take away good things like Embrava and PD from the players who have already done everything else. Instead we give you Evoliths. BARRANCE!"


How are these sites even remotely comparable in that context. The mods/admins here have no control over what can and can not take place in any of the games they support. They may bring certain issues to light (or at least when it was a premiere site). That comparison is apples and oranges.


Yes

TheBarrister wrote:

The two sites are vastly different.
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#71 Nov 14 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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I don't get your point. Your comparison is meaningless. If you were to compare say the points I outlined maybe that would help? You seem to be under the impression that community building comes from the ability to adjust the game...community building is what we are doing right now, discussing sh*t, getting new folks reading the site, and maybe posting like my new buddy CorncobWilly who braved the waters to post in a sh*tted up thread to get in some +1's.

Your comparison doesn't compare anything to do with the community, it is entirely game related, which is a secondary aspect of a gaming forum.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you come here to read about FFXI, or do you come here because you want to shoot the sh*t with people you met here over the years that happen to play (or have played) the same game as you?

The comparison is community, not ability to access the Devs. Frankly the official forums have more community building threads, mostly because they have drama, they have their Rogs, and their anti rogs, they have their circle jerks, their white knights, their trolls. This site is devoid of many of those, because the circle jerk decreed this site be drama free. Which has caused the posting traffic to dwindle.

So ya your comparison is apple and oranges, and does not actually define why the sites are different at all. This website has minimal influence on what changes in the game. Hell the main site has minimal influence as well. Unless you are new to the game, SE has been sh*tting on our ideas for years, regardless of where they were posted.
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#72 Nov 14 2012 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Forum activity is down because of one reason only, a lack of bodies, not because of any one person. Rog didn't start many threads, as I recall. According to ffxiah.com there are 100,000 less active characters since the auction house merge. Forum activity is down on all the FFXI-related sites, is that because Rog got banned there too?
#73 Nov 14 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Subadai wrote:
Forum activity is down because of one reason only, a lack of bodies, not because of any one person.
Three reasons, actually. Less players, less discussable content, and increased moderation. Anyone that says otherwise is an idiot.

You're all welcome for my expert holding your hands through your pathetic little identity crisis.

Edited, Nov 14th 2012 2:42pm by lolgaxe
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#74 Nov 14 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I don't get your point. Your comparison is meaningless. If you were to compare say the points I outlined maybe that would help? You seem to be under the impression that community building comes from the ability to adjust the game...community building is what we are doing right now, discussing sh*t, getting new folks reading the site, and maybe posting like my new buddy CorncobWilly who braved the waters to post in a sh*tted up thread to get in some +1's.


When you don't understand things, it helps to logically break them down into the chronological points made.

(1) Catwho pointed out that it wasn't merely a lack of drama that drove activity in =10 down it was also the establishment of an official forum;
(2) You pointed out that the official forum was full of drama and that drama is the common theme increasing activity;
(3) I pointed out the official forum and this site are vastly different;
(4) You pointed out the official forum and this site are vastly different and asked why I was comparing them (/facepalm here)...

Of course point #3 is not about the community, it's refute to your point that the common theme of drama is not an accurate reflection of cause and effect. People dwindled from this site for many reasons (game is 10 years old, lack of content to discuss, servers being merged, more sites coming about over the years to discuss content, etc.). Your mythological grouping of people forcing this site to be drama free (of which it is not anyways) is likely the least of any actual causes. I have yet to meet one of these migrants that magically brought all their drama to the official forums because of some apparent edict you've imagined on =10. By the way, Port Jeuno or BG is better for those reasons anyways. The official forum isn't even a collection of two logical sentences in a row because there is no rate-down or nuke button mitigating the ultra-casual idiocy.



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#75 Nov 14 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Or how long before he compares message board trolls to Nelson Mandela?

The guy who invented the Mandelin ? just kidding

Edited, Nov 14th 2012 2:45pm by Terrifyingspeed
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#76 Nov 15 2012 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
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TheBarrister wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
I don't get your point. Your comparison is meaningless. If you were to compare say the points I outlined maybe that would help? You seem to be under the impression that community building comes from the ability to adjust the game...community building is what we are doing right now, discussing sh*t, getting new folks reading the site, and maybe posting like my new buddy CorncobWilly who braved the waters to post in a sh*tted up thread to get in some +1's.


When you don't understand things, it helps to logically break them down into the chronological points made.

(1) Catwho pointed out that it wasn't merely a lack of drama that drove activity in =10 down it was also the establishment of an official forum;
(2) You pointed out that the official forum was full of drama and that drama is the common theme increasing activity;
(3) I pointed out the official forum and this site are vastly different;
(4) You pointed out the official forum and this site are vastly different and asked why I was comparing them (/facepalm here)...



1) Yes she did and she is right because the Official form has more drama threads which attracted more viewer and posters. I personally did not use the official forms for anything other than "trolling". Which is why I have stopped "trolling" here for the most part. I like to extend threads into a discussion where it wasn't really mean to be derailing if you will. This happens hourly on the official forms in hundreds of topics, in languages you nor I fully comprehend. (granted I did take french and german in high school and japanese and mandarin in college...although I understand all 4 to meet required passing levels!) just because you don't understand it does not mean it is happening. The official site is riddled with drama, more so than any idea SE has grabbed on to (granted they took my healing magic fix idea shameless self plug and all) and adjusted the game because of it.

2) Yes look at the most active threads, and look at he people who post there. It is community building, through generated discussion and flame wars.

3) They are different, but the reason you pointed out makes no sense. Vlor Wint Pikko Thayos Kao DQ have never held any sway over what SE implemented in the game. Hence why your comparison means sh*t. What we can compare is the community. There are not "trolls" here anymore. The standard was set with the circle jerks ejection of Rog. It was made known that this community no longer tolerates that type of behavior. Cool. Now most of that community is gone anyway. Hell half the people who posted in the post Rog thread took snipes at him because he was gone. That thread (around the end year/new year 2010/2011) was the last thread that reached numerous page levels and had numerous posters involved (may link later). something like 15 pages discussing the tolerable levels desired here. Circle Jerk won. and the circle jerks position, they have this to answer for a site that is demoted to a site based on answering questions. Not building community. The job forums are dead, the server forums are dead (even when mods/admins move threads from =10 to the dead server forum it belongs it.).

4) What you compared and I compared are vastly vastly different. You took basic forum topics from here, and compared it to Devs altering things in the game based on topics from the OFFICIAL site. Do you not see the apples and oranges? I agree you should be pulling a face palm. Literally what you compared is ridiculous, and to defend it even more so.




What I am saying is not about impact on the game. I am talking about community, I am talking about why you still post here, why many of us still post here. I am talking about the things that made us post here over the years. We didn't post because X job got a new ability, we posted because we wanted to talk about the game with each other. We hypothesized, we ran up flame wars, we all got trolled, weve trolled each other, we have become a community. We are a bunch of @#%^s who have nothing better to do then refresh a forum and see if one of us posted.

Why can't the new folks to the site have that. Why can't they have their "trolls", why can't they have their circle jerk? why can't they build their community? Our community was built on our "trolls" and our circle jerks.

Ill ask a (my generation) community wide question.
Do you post here to discuss FFXI, or do you post here because you want to discuss FFXI with people you know?

Why can't the newbies like CCW get that too?
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#77 Nov 15 2012 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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and I will respond by saying.

The reason I post here is because of the people who post here. I have been posting here for many years. After many years you get to know people, people you might agree with people you butt heads with. Either way it is part of community. I post here not to discuss a game, but to discuss a game with people I know, and while our opinions may differ, we have discussed this game for years through trolls and circle jerks.

I post here because it has brought me friendships I would not have had otherwise, friendships built on trolling, discussion, circle jerking and +1ing.



Edited, Nov 15th 2012 2:46am by rdmcandie
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