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#27 Oct 25 2012 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
The major problem is that elite content is designed for elite players, whereas the nerfs to elite content are all caused by non-elite players whining.

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by elite content, but there should never be content that is impossible for people to partake in. And nerfs are sometimes needed to help balance *gasp* content. When an ability is too overpowered, it causes problems when designing content. If they make it without said abilities in mind it becomes too easy. If they do keep it in mind, then it becomes too hard to do without.
#28 Oct 25 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Lonix wrote:
Do people actually complain to SE about this stuff - I mean really? All the nerfs that have occurred over the years happened without people moaning? In fact I am sure SE has players on XI who notice things and do some "homework" and then decide nerf is in order.
Edited, Oct 25th 2012 10:21am by Lonix


You can't compare the previous nerfs of the original dev team who moved on to FF14 to the current Dev team we have. These guys are actually active on the official forums and they have stated in those forums that they pay attention to other forums as well.

I think I have missrepresented my intent with my previous statements. I do think that PD and Embrava were gimicky and abusable.

My point is, who gives a ****? They worked.

We spent years wiping to Kirin, boosting for chi blast, farming millions for Lizzy boots and spent hours killing Crabs on beaches. Then the game flipped polarity to a world where people could cruor burn their way to fortunes or brew kill anything on BRD, it was easy mode and it sucked. Now, we were finally reaching a point where we had just the correct tools mixed with just enough randomness to have fun but still not get stiffed on drops in reasonably challenging events.

And people ran and told mom and dad that they left the liqour cabinet unlocked.
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#29 Oct 25 2012 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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If I am reading your post correctly, you're mad that people could use gimmicks to obtain rewards with less effort (abyssea ezmode), and mad that your gimmick to obtain rewards with less effort was taken away (embrava/PD ezmode).

You can't honestly be this far up your own ******.
#30 Oct 25 2012 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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Busaman wrote:
I think I have missrepresented my intent with my previous statements. I do think that PD and Embrava were gimicky and abusable.

My point is, who gives a @#%^? They worked.

We spent years wiping to Kirin, boosting for chi blast, farming millions for Lizzy boots and spent hours killing Crabs on beaches. Then the game flipped polarity to a world where people could cruor burn their way to fortunes or brew kill anything on BRD, it was easy mode and it sucked. Now, we were finally reaching a point where we had just the correct tools mixed with just enough randomness to have fun but still not get stiffed on drops in reasonably challenging events.

And people ran and told mom and dad that they left the liqour cabinet unlocked.


I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?
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#31 Oct 25 2012 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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#32 Oct 25 2012 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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SCH,
At least someone wanted you at some endgame events for some reason at some point.
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#33 Oct 25 2012 at 10:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?


Problem is, PD/Embrava becoming predictable and required tactics for the newest content (at seemingly the expense of all the non-SMN&SCH jobs) is precisely what's making the game less fun to them.

When you dominate just about everything in almost the exact same ways, it gets boring after a while. It's a lot like Voidwatch in general. There's a lot of diversity among the various VWNMs, but in general they are so overpowered with how they go about murdering adventurers that the tactic for almost every NM is 1) pop Fanatic's Drink 2) get procs 3) kill. Any frontliners who fail at step #1 are usually pointed out by being flat on the ground moments later. Sometimes you might mix it up a little bit and use Fool's Drink instead. Ooh, how exciting.

Edited, Oct 26th 2012 12:27am by Fynlar
#34 Oct 25 2012 at 11:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Dantedmc wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
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I feel like the nerf a bit over kill. It should be a time nerf or the regain swap not both. However even in the state they suggested doesn't suddenly make the spell useless. 25% stackable haste isn't something to wave off as worthless.


Duration gimp (at least, assuming they really gimp it down to 90 seconds base as they say) makes it worthless. You might as well have them come as a (2nd) BRD instead and Soul Voice you some marches, and be able to keep them up longer than Embrava thanks to Troubagale.

The only drawback a BRD has here is only being able to buff one party at a time while Embrava can be freely casted. But obviously for HQ Nyzul at least, that won't matter.

Edited, Oct 24th 2012 8:27pm by Fynlar


Yeah but a bard can't slap embrava+regen and basicly send DDs off on their own being able to handle anything but nms and some more annoying mobs in Nyzul even without the regain. Which is a serious perk when you get a lay-out that forks a lot. Scholar also has their own time extender which would put the spell at(With bracer+2) 3 minutes 45 seconds.


Gimped Embrava for 3.75 minutes in a 30 minute event is so useful Smiley: rolleyes. Previously you could have about 150/tic total regen fultime. Now in the best of circumstances embrava will last around 7 minutes / sch as opposed to 15 minutes. It's pretty hard to justify the usefulness of embrava now since it idoesn't even last the entire event.


Edited, Oct 24th 2012 11:44pm by Dantedmc



And in what realm would it make sense for any 2 hour buff(An "Oh ****!" button) with the exception of beast,(Specifically since it's basically just a time extender for intents and purposes) to last a full events worth(half an hour+)? Only a handful of stances and buffs last as long as this buff in it's original state,

Is hundred fist, Mighty strikes useless becuase they only last 45 seconds? No. It's an inflammatory argument that just doesn't make sense. It's a nerf, I am not parading in the streets about it but it isn't suddenly akin to Overdrive. The spell is not useless, nor is the two hour. No other two hour in the game comes with as many benefits as Scholar's does. Even though bard can haste for more and have a longer duration yes, however a bard can't give a mages and DDs that kind of regen on top of refresh or haste respectively. a bard can't suddenly cast one of the strongest spells in game that is also AoEable. A bard can't drop AoE self target only spells to help further mitigate damage and enhance attacks.

Embrava and the two hour itself is not useless. It's just not Quintessential anymore. Which was the point to the nerf. And it will still be sought after for things like Nyzul and eventually salvage for it's strong versatility.

And I have to agree with fyn point on fun. This doesn't ruin anyones fun. Cause I don't consider 2 houring and staring at a book all event long only to step away to recast 1 spell on everyone fun. Nor do I considering strong arming my way through content with the same "Hit it as hard was we can and hope it dies before we do" strategy that is so popular in this game fun when used ad nasuem,
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#35 Oct 26 2012 at 1:18 AM Rating: Default
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ItsAMyri wrote:
If I am reading your post correctly, you're mad that people could use gimmicks to obtain rewards with less effort (abyssea ezmode), and mad that your gimmick to obtain rewards with less effort was taken away (embrava/PD ezmode).

You can't honestly be this far up your own ******.


True I did not like Abyssea, but I also didn't complain to SE that brews are OP and killing my ability to have fun compared to others. That's that point of all of this. If you enjoy farming cruor and brewing NMs until your eyes bleed, then go right ahead. I could do that too if I wanted too. It's the complaining that bothers me and if you can't figure that out then you must be slightly further up my ***. There's drinks and snacks in the back, feel free to make yourself at home. Look for polyps while you up there too you ******* punk lol.
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#36 Oct 26 2012 at 1:19 AM Rating: Default
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Erecia wrote:
Busaman wrote:
I think I have missrepresented my intent with my previous statements. I do think that PD and Embrava were gimicky and abusable.

My point is, who gives a @#%^? They worked.

We spent years wiping to Kirin, boosting for chi blast, farming millions for Lizzy boots and spent hours killing Crabs on beaches. Then the game flipped polarity to a world where people could cruor burn their way to fortunes or brew kill anything on BRD, it was easy mode and it sucked. Now, we were finally reaching a point where we had just the correct tools mixed with just enough randomness to have fun but still not get stiffed on drops in reasonably challenging events.

And people ran and told mom and dad that they left the liqour cabinet unlocked.


I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?


EXACTLY, internet-high-five right back at you.
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#37 Oct 26 2012 at 2:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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It would be one thing if the content was not just all AV-lite gimmick mobs were the only effective strat revolved around taking 0 dmg and having super charged DDs like what was said in the other tread. It is pure laziness on the part of the devs for not coming up with a more creative design, that is what people should really be ****** at. As annoying as auras can be are they could do some interesting things with them if they gave it half a thought.
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#38 Oct 26 2012 at 3:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?


Problem is, PD/Embrava becoming predictable and required tactics for the newest content (at seemingly the expense of all the non-SMN&SCH jobs) is precisely what's making the game less fun to them.

When you dominate just about everything in almost the exact same ways, it gets boring after a while. It's a lot like Voidwatch in general. There's a lot of diversity among the various VWNMs, but in general they are so overpowered with how they go about murdering adventurers that the tactic for almost every NM is 1) pop Fanatic's Drink 2) get procs 3) kill. Any frontliners who fail at step #1 are usually pointed out by being flat on the ground moments later. Sometimes you might mix it up a little bit and use Fool's Drink instead. Ooh, how exciting.

Edited, Oct 26th 2012 12:27am by Fynlar



That pretty much sums up the entire issue with the game right now. The developers made these stupid powerful monsters that constantly spam their "JP Button" to kill everyone and now they refuse to acknowledge that and nerf them. It's become a situation where you MUST use PD/Embrava (PD was required, Embrava just made it easier) or you failed. Try to do ADL without PD, try to do Legion without PD, try to do Voidwatch without using Fanatics drinks. You'll find out really fast how much they were required, not desired. I would love to play in a game where we don't have to resort to such cheap tactics, cause they do make the game seem boring by removing some of the real challenge. Arch-Omega is a decent enough fight, it does a ton of AoE's but none are so powerful that they just insta-kill everyone. DD's need a PDT/MDT set to be engaged full time, and your healers need to be good on the status ailments and Curaga spam. Actually the Arch-Omega / Ultima fights are good for separating the Abyssea onry healers from the dedicated healers, Cure IV/V spam won't go far, you need Curaga's at a minimum. Of course introducing Embrava / PD makes the fight kinda easy, which is the point behind nerfing it in the first place.

So if SE's going to nerf PD / Embrava, then they need to also nerf the offensive power of boss's, it's not an option.
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#39 Oct 26 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Agreed, removing the tools we use will require more than lowering monsters HP%.

Lower AoE DMG of ADL and legion mobs to something manageable but still challenging for healers (Say...650-800?) and two changes to NNI: Remove the timer during the lobby and while jumping floors and remove order lamps (or atleast make them only available to happen once per run).
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#40 Oct 26 2012 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.
Lonix wrote:
Lol

Strange people are saying "quit whining" yet there are several posts here doing the exact same thing.

Do people actually complain to SE about this stuff - I mean really? All the nerfs that have occurred over the years happened without people moaning? In fact I am sure SE has players on XI who notice things and do some "homework" and then decide nerf is in order.

Sorry but as much as nerfs make me want to go mental, I feel like saying tough monkeys and get over it. As a RNG back in the day the nerf hit me and spoilt a job I fell in love with (my 1st real enjoyable job) and SE tried to recover from it for years with some OK additions and updates.

It happens, seriously guys quit or carry on playing your only two options. Well you could carry on crying :)

You cant sit there and complain telling others they should change their ways and tactics just to avoid you changing your ways and tactics. Its called SE is the rule maker and you change to fit their way.

Edited, Oct 25th 2012 10:21am by Lonix



Edited, Oct 26th 2012 7:12pm by jakarai
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#41 Oct 26 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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xantav wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
The major problem is that elite content is designed for elite players, whereas the nerfs to elite content are all caused by non-elite players whining.

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by elite content, but there should never be content that is impossible for people to partake in. And nerfs are sometimes needed to help balance *gasp* content. When an ability is too overpowered, it causes problems when designing content. If they make it without said abilities in mind it becomes too easy. If they do keep it in mind, then it becomes too hard to do without.


Yeah, I disagree too. I thought embrava was cool. Choco blinkers were handy.

I never called for anything to be nerfed, and if it hadn't been nerfed I wouldn't have said much about it. Yet, I do see reasons why measures were brought in. I don't consider myself "ultra casual" and while I did like the more strategic aspects of old style play, I recognize they could only be relevant in punishing experience points parties that I simply don't have time for anymore. It's nice to randomly duo with someone while doing GoV and to know you can say "thanks, gotta go, bye" whenever.

And I actually really like being able to spend more time getting high level gears and learning how to use all the abilities of a job.

But I can totally see the reason behind nerfing certain abilities. Did I do neo-nyzul? No, I am still working on regular nyzul. I solo dynamis and do some voidwatch, I consider myself to be mid-tier, not ignorantly terrible, and nothing special player.

But it doesn't take a macro-happy WS spamming +1 player to see that as long as PD and embrava are overpowered upper level content would end up being tuned to require those abilities.

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#42 Oct 26 2012 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
That's just one stupid NM boss fight. Get into the utter insanity that is legion and it's nothing but PD or die after the first wave. And with the extremely limited time and all the desired drops coming from the final wave, it's a 30m mega zerg or don't bother trying.


There are groups that do legion w/o PD at all, but they do have multiple sch's for stun-locking the mobs. I think the nerf to PD is perfect, can still get 57 seconds out of it if you are skilled so you lose 33 seconds only. Embrava however I thought was too much, something like 2 1/2 min recast regain to 3 tic max, haste was fine at what they put it too and maybe knocking 15-20 off the regen and that would have been good.
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#43 Oct 27 2012 at 12:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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RavennofTitan wrote:
It would be one thing if the content was not just all AV-lite gimmick mobs were the only effective strat revolved around taking 0 dmg and having super charged DDs like what was said in the other tread. It is pure laziness on the part of the devs for not coming up with a more creative design, that is what people should really be ****** at. As annoying as auras can be are they could do some interesting things with them if they gave it half a thought.

Not trying to defend SE but I think the problem was that with Embrava and PD as strong as they were, they had to design the events around the fact that it is possible for them to be used. Even though I think the Embrava nerf was to much, hopefully they'll finally design stuff that is challenging and not AV/PW gimmick events/fights.
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#44 Oct 27 2012 at 12:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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jakarai wrote:
Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

I know theme tends to take a back seat to efficiency in MMOs, but there were basically two things going wrong when it came to Ranger back then. First was people simply shooting at point blank range. Really, when I consider archers or other forms of marksmen, I think of people trying to shoot **** from a distance. Execution style may have its appeal to gangstas and the like, but it's still not really in the fantasy mold. Second would be people using things like the Kraken Club to get TP really fast and just crank out WS far faster than they would've spamming RAs. Nice for parses, sure, but still not very range-y.

Mechanically, there were other issues like different damage formula favoring ranged attacks on higher level prey, which when paired with some of the above, eventually lead people into arrowburns. And since it was better, theme be damned, you were basically playing a gimpy THF/NIN until it came time to WS. Even after the nerf, the damage of RNG has not been the problem. The real hurdles the job now faces are a mix of ammunition costs and enmity issues making it difficult to actually maintain range on a mob if you're doing respectable damage. Some might also make a case for lacking auto-RA and the clumsiness of rapid shot gear, but I also don't think some realize that RAs are really just JAs with a cast time and that making such happen would be more complex than just copy/pasting the melee code. People, have, however fallen into the trap of believing that because RNG does shoot ammo, thus spend money, they deserve being a top DD. Actually being able to attack at range is a definite defensive benefit and even made some fights like Dark Ixion a breeze. The unfortunate truth is, as long as other melees have to get in range of this deadly TP wtfpwnurass **** mobs throw out, the best RNG could hop for is being on par or slightly less effective. But then we hit the problem of people only wanting the most effective jobs for a given task. That just brings us full circle to ammo costs. If 1k could get you 100 shots of any kind of ammo, I doubt people would give a **** about being less effective. But when you have to pay 15k for those 100 shots... yeah. And this is one of those cases were it's not really the crafter's fault due to either rarity or forced minimum pricing via NPC materials.
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#45 Oct 27 2012 at 3:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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heldemon wrote:
RavennofTitan wrote:
It would be one thing if the content was not just all AV-lite gimmick mobs were the only effective strat revolved around taking 0 dmg and having super charged DDs like what was said in the other tread. It is pure laziness on the part of the devs for not coming up with a more creative design, that is what people should really be ****** at. As annoying as auras can be are they could do some interesting things with them if they gave it half a thought.

Not trying to defend SE but I think the problem was that with Embrava and PD as strong as they were, they had to design the events around the fact that it is possible for them to be used. Even though I think the Embrava nerf was to much, hopefully they'll finally design stuff that is challenging and not AV/PW gimmick events/fights.


That is giving them to much. Whats the point of making mobs do 2k+ aoes if PD will just zero it out in the first place. They could have done any number of things to counter the zerg tactics that PD/embreva brought to the table. Phases and auras could have done so much to prevent zergs while still making the fights hard and interesting. Really it not like there isn't mobs already mobs that change the type of damage they take. Combine this with a annoying but minor aura to let the players know which mode it's in would have not only been easy but hella lot more creative then insta death.
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#46 Oct 27 2012 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Taking away the ability for certain jobs to deal damage is actually worse than requiring a certain job to be present just to survive the fight.

****, that's pretty much taking them out of the fight without even bothering to kill them.

Try again.
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#47 Oct 27 2012 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
jakarai wrote:
Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

I know theme tends to take a back seat to efficiency in MMOs, but there were basically two things going wrong when it came to Ranger back then. First was people simply shooting at point blank range.
If S-E added Glocks or MAC-11s to the game for RNG's use, I'd be totally okay with that.

Animate them cocking the firearm to the side and everything.
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#48 Oct 27 2012 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Seriha wrote:
jakarai wrote:
Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

I know theme tends to take a back seat to efficiency in MMOs, but there were basically two things going wrong when it came to Ranger back then. First was people simply shooting at point blank range.
If S-E added Glocks or MAC-11s to the game for RNG's use, I'd be totally okay with that.

Animate them cocking the firearm to the side and everything.

In the interest of further themeliness, they must also take an RACC penalty when doing so. :P
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#49 Oct 27 2012 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
Taking away the ability for certain jobs to deal damage is actually worse than requiring a certain job to be present just to survive the fight.

****, that's pretty much taking them out of the fight without even bothering to kill them.

Try again.


As long as it changes at random with out staying in one mode for to long. The goal being stopping zergs and making players pay attention to what the mob is doing and what they need to do.
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#50 Oct 27 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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RavennofTitan wrote:
Whats the point of making mobs do 2k+ aoes if PD will just zero it out in the first place.

I have an even better question: What's the point of making mobs do 2k+ AoEs, period?
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#51 Oct 27 2012 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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If you want to stop zergs, drop the potential of damage dealers, either directly or by raising the mobs HP/resistance to damage.

You can't make a realistically challenging fight if the fight is going to be over in 60 seconds of Resolution spam. If the mob dies in 60 seconds, it has to be able to wipe an alliance in half of that time (or less) to pose a threat, and the only way to do that is through ridiculous amounts of AoE damage.

We've sort of dug our own graves. We went from chipping at a brick wall with a spoon to beating tissue paper with a sledgehammer, and no one would be happy if their big bad damage dealin' job went back to the popgun potency of ye olde days.

(My suggestion would be to focus on smaller groups and/or multiple enemies/add spam so that focusing all your firepower on one target becomes impractical, but if there's one thing I know about SE, it's that they love to design "One Giant Mob" encounters.)

Quote:
I have an even better question: What's the point of making mobs do 2k+ AoEs, period?


Because if they do no AoE's they're harmless to an alliance and if they do manageable AoE's curespam will keep everyone alive. You're not going to run out of MP and wipe due to a scarcity of healing, you're only going to wipe if everyone gets dropped faster than cure can be spammed.

Edited, Oct 27th 2012 12:33pm by ItsAMyri
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