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Need some serious help on Empy selectionFollow

#1 Sep 15 2012 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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My situation is that I have all jobs at 99 and I really like all of them. I want to start doing some Empys and my indecisive OCD nature is preventing me from selecting. Please help me guys with some useful input.


I have a Kannagi so far and really like it. The ones I was able to narrow the list down to are:

Twashtar
Gandiva
Verethragna
Ukonvasara

I can only start TWO of them seriously because of my time constraints. Which two would you guys recommend, and why? Thanks in advance and I hope I get some serious and insightful responses.




Edited, Sep 15th 2012 8:52pm by Hazoo
#2 Sep 15 2012 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ukon+Vere makes the most sense because not only are they actually good weapons, they share the same zone paths, meaning that you can take full advantage of gold box farming the KIs from both Tahrongi and Attohwa (in other words, you're more likely to get KIs you can use). This was my initial reasoning for getting these two weapons first.

The bad news is, it's Tahrongi. La Theine emps are a cakewalk compared to it.

Edited, Sep 15th 2012 10:05pm by Fynlar
#3 Sep 15 2012 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Out of those options, I agree with Fyn's choices. Ukonvasara and Verethragna (and the weaponskills associated with them) are just so far ahead of any of their alternatives that it's just well worth doing those two. Twashtar, while a worthwhile weapon, isn't as amazing in comparison to Ukonvasara (which is the same items for upgrade) and if you go about KI farming through gold chests for the pops, you can gain the KI for both Glavoid and Chloris.
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#4 Sep 16 2012 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for great responses guys. I guess I am slightly disappointed lol. Your answers made sense, but I was secretly hoping for Twash/Gand since I was slightly leaning towards those more. My friends keep telling me that getting Twash instead of Ukon is just stupid since it "pales in comparison". I know Ukon is pound for pound the better weapon, but is it really a "waste" to have those items on hand and choose to do Twash with them instead of an Ukon?

Edited, Sep 16th 2012 11:20am by Hazoo
#5 Sep 16 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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I started on Twashtar, but I've actually been pretty content with just my Triplus Dagger and I've got it on hold while I pick away at Dardaubla (since I'm still a bard main and probably always will be.) I'm not even sure I'll resume it once I'm done with Dharp, since the Ukon slot in my LS will be open by then.

Twashtar is nice if the only job you ever play is THF or DNC, but if you play WAR with any regularity, you just about need Ukon. Ukon will do more for your WAR than Twashtar will do for your THF or DNC, plain and simple.
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#6 Sep 16 2012 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for great responses guys. I guess I am slightly disappointed lol. Your answers made sense, but I was secretly hoping for Twash/Gand since I was slightly leaning towards those more. My friends keep telling me that getting Twash instead of Ukon is just stupid since it "pales in comparison". I know Ukon is pound for pound the better weapon, but is it really a "waste" to have those items on hand and choose to do Twash with them instead of an Ukon?


I always advocate playing how you feel most comfortable. We all have different goals and playstyles in this game, and there is no one right or wrong way to play, nor is there a correct choice when deciding which pieces of equipment you peruse in the game. This game is ultimately a leisure activity and when you log out the accomplishments have no real world meaning. Because of that I'd recommend you work on Gandiva and Twash simply because you want them more. I dislike the notion of going for one specific item because it's the bandwagon choice, and the logic below is thrown around entirely too often when the topic of legendary weapons arises

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Twashtar is nice if the only job you ever play is THF or DNC, but if you play WAR with any regularity, you just about need Ukon.


No, no you don't just about need ANY specific weapon, be it Ukon, or Twashtar, or Yoichi or Masa or any of the myriad choices of OaT weapons. If that were the case well over 95% of warriors would be left out in the cold, and I assure you they're not. The vast majority of content is steamrollable if you're a competent player with proper gear and a respectable weapon (even if it's not ultimate). Legion is currently the most challenging of all events and even then teams of ukons and masas and OaT weapons wipe to bad luck because the mobs are very overpowered. Aside from that everything can be dealt with using appropriate attire. There's always neo nyzule, but that isn't challenging... it's broken. The new lead has hinted that neo nyzule changes will come at some point down the road alongside the perfect defense and embrava changes, so I'm not really worried because I believe Akinori will be scaling down several of the broken game mechanics over time. I can wait a little longer for them and meanwhile I'm farming other gear/weapons.

On a closing note, I have over half the jobs leveled now and I've been gearing up about ten of them simultaneously. Three are mages and seven are melees. My only current legendary is Twashtar, but it's one **** of a weapon. Twash is essentially a Mandau clone with different mechanics, but resulting in near parallel damage potential. All of the legendary weapons are top notch and suit their respective jobs accordingly. Thief isn't the ideal damage dealer but it's no weakling like it was at 75 anymore and holds its own in voidwatch (and in abyssea it actually is one of the ideal DD because of atmas and the job's affinity to crit mechanics). Jishnu's Radiance is an amazing weaponskill and is worthy of pursuit. I have no regrets that I chose Twastar over Ukon, and I intend to work on Ukon in the future anyway. 7 out of my 10 jobs I've been gearing are ready for events with appropriate gear sets, and they're all worthwhile contributors to whatever I take them to. And I almost never fail to win the events barring the random voidwatch pickup that lacks too many procs, but that's the leaders fault for a bad setup. Do what's most fun for you rather than letting other people tell YOU how to play your game. In the end it's your playtime, so play it your way. Advice is always a good thing, but when all is said and done you'll be working with whatever weapon you have chosen. If you feel unhappy or disappointed about your decision what's the point of doing it at all?

Edited, Sep 16th 2012 12:42pm by Melphina
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#7 Sep 16 2012 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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No, no you don't just about need ANY specific weapon, be it Ukon, or Twashtar, or Yoichi or Masa or any of the myriad choices of OaT weapons. If that were the case well over 95% of warriors would be left out in the cold, and I assure you they're not.


Well, when it comes to VW (the most common pickup activity I see shouted for), the vast majority of the difficult fights ask strictly for DDs with emps or better (at least when it comes to the jobs that have GOOD emps; if you're a DRK you'll need to have a relic, for instance). So unfortunately, in many cases, YES, you will need those kinds of weapons if you want to be let in these groups, and these high-standard groups are usually the ones that succeed the most often at the difficult VWNMs.

I can't even remember the last time I saw a WAR in Voidwatch that didn't have either a Ukon, Rag, or Bravura equipped, to be quite honest.

Unfortunately, in the case of THF+DNC, Twashtar doesn't tip the scales enough for them to be considered for VW groups. If you're ever invited to VW as these jobs, it's solely for the procs you can provide; they probably couldn't care less about your damage potential.
#8 Sep 16 2012 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you plan to play warrior with any seriousness, you really only have two major options. Your first option is to build an empyrean Gaxe and focus on Ukko's fury. The second option is to abandon great axe entirely in favor of great sword and Resolution. The best way to go about it would be to create a relic great sword; however, I've known plenty of warriors who opt for the Jingang Greatsword and do extremely well with it.

Ultimately those are your options as a serious warrior, Ukon and Ukko's Fury or Relic/Jingang and Resolution.


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#9 Sep 16 2012 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Umm Mel...

WAR can't even use the magian GS's. Their only high end choice is Rag, Jingang is a decent stand in for MS Resolution spam. Ukko's with MS Upheaval is another option.


Woops, my bad. You're right, that one I messed up on. Never mind then.

Edited, Sep 16th 2012 8:11pm by Melphina
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#10 Sep 16 2012 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Umm Mel...

WAR can't even use the magian GS's. Their only high end choice is Rag, Jingang is a decent stand in for MS Resolution spam. Ukko's with MS Upheaval is another option.

For voidwatch the times your expected to have a legendary weapon are the high end ones not the **** easy ones. This includes Bismark, Morta, Prov Watch, Kalastrax, Ig and B Rex. Nothing else is sufficiently strong enough to require their damage output. Morta, Prov Watch, Kala, Ig and B Rex are all DPS races, you need to proc and kill it before it decides to **** on you and hit the "I Win" button. Bismark is more about balancing your damage and having BLMs chain nuking or just do what most people do, use a weakener or two and smash it.

The other "high end" events are Neo Nyzule Isle and legion. Legion is a pure DPS race while abusing Embrava and PD to bypass SE's stupidly overpowered monsters. NNI is another one of SEs retarded events that you were never expected to win. In either of those events if you don't have sufficient damage then you lose, in the case of NNI even if you have sufficient damage you can still lose if SE's RNG decides to just **** on you.

It's pretty much expected that any serious DD will pursue and achieve some form of legendary weapon, without that weapon their participation is the high end events will be limited or at least limited as a DD job (they could still come WHM / SCH / BRD / COR / ect..).
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#11 Sep 16 2012 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally don't need Ukon for my WAR because it's the 5th tier job in my lineup, behind BRD, BLM, WHM, and THF. I play WAR only on occasion, and I'm okay with my Vermeil Bhuj because my WAR is simply a backup to my linkshells WAR main - for whom we're picking away at Ukon.

However, if I played WAR with "any regularity" - meaning it was either my #1 or #2 job choice - then yeah I'd be hurting without Ukon.

As it is, for me VW shouts tend to go like this:

Person: Voidwatch Jeuno 1 to (End Key) (Do you need it?) /tell jobs 10/18
Me: // relic bard here
Person: Oh Cat! You have WHM right?
Me: Er...yes...
Person: Oh even better, you have BLM too! Come blm pls.
Me: *sigh*

And then they complain when the mob is extremely vulnerable to bard and they don't have one.
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#12 Sep 16 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
And then they complain when the mob is extremely vulnerable to bard and they don't have one.

That's when players start to /fume (either in game because they know the trick, or IRL because they don't know the trick).
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#13 Sep 16 2012 at 11:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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its true that you should go with whatever that you are most comfortable with but you have to consider your time investment vs what impact will it bring to your character.
#14 Sep 17 2012 at 7:02 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:

I can't even remember the last time I saw a WAR in Voidwatch that didn't have either a Ukon, Rag, or Bravura equipped, to be quite honest.

Unfortunately, in the case of THF+DNC, Twashtar doesn't tip the scales enough for them to be considered for VW groups. If you're ever invited to VW as these jobs, it's solely for the procs you can provide; they probably couldn't care less about your damage potential.


The last time I saw a Warrior in VW that did not have an Ukon was 500+ Kaggens, and 200+ Pils ago. So 700 VW fights ago a Warrior without an Ukon was invited. This was about 6 months ago.

The last time I saw a Thief in VW period was about the same time.
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#15 Sep 18 2012 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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Another considerations is the fact that you have all jobs and you like playing all of them. Twashtar and Verethragna finishes your weapons for Thf, Dnc, Mnk and Pup. From the sounds of it, you play enough that you'll continue on with others after these are complete.
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#16 Sep 18 2012 at 4:50 AM Rating: Default
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Our LS's typical voidwatch lineup is

DD PT #1
Rag DRK (me)
WAR (Ukkon, Rag)
Misc DD (DRG / MNK / SAM usually)
BRD/NIN (Relic BRD)
COR
WHM

DD PT #2
Rag DRK (LS Leader)
WAR (Ukkon, Rag)
Misc DD (DRG / MNK / SAM, whatever the first PT doesn't have).
BRD/PLD (99 Relic, 99 Emp Harp BRD)
COR
WHM

Proc / mage PT
BLM
BLM (or SCH / RDM)
BLU
THF or DNC
Misc
Misc

We do BRD rotation and each COR does Fighters / Chaos (hence the WAR and DRK in each Party), our DD's end up so super buffed that whatever we're fighting dies fast. The only change is on PW we bring two SCH/BLMs in the Misc spots for stun cycling. Proper support is absolutely critical to your DD's kicking the monsters teeth in, more important then them having legendary weapons (though that helps). Proper use of Tomahawk and Angon is also extremely important. At 5/5 Hawks / Spears last for 90s with a 180s cool down, that's more then enough time to turn the target into a grease smear.
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#17 Sep 18 2012 at 5:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking of needing Ukon, I'm that one idiot who ended up making Shamash, and while I obviously don't get Aftermath it does really well in VW. Would I do better with an Ukon? I would assume so. Am I a liability with Shamash? No.

What many "Emp only" leaders don't get is that many Emp owners are either slack or misinformed with their TP/WS sets. An Emp is no guarantee of greatness, and Emp users can be outperformed. Emp isn't even ideal for all jobs. This is from someone who does own one 90 Emp.

Sadly though, what the leader says goes whether he's right or not. So yeah you probably are better off getting Ukon just to avoid the stigma of not having one.


Edited, Sep 18th 2012 7:40am by Camiie
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#18 Sep 18 2012 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
What many "Emp only" leaders don't get is that many Emp owners are either slack or misinformed with their TP/WS sets. An Emp is no guarantee of greatness, and Emp users can be outperformed. Emp isn't even ideal for all jobs. This is from someone who does own one 90 Emp.

Worse is when they demand Emps or Relics of jobs that... have crappy Empys and Relics. DRG is #1 for this, DRK on the Empy side. Or they want Armageddon instead of Gandiva on a RNG.

Hasn't been a problem in a while though. Conservation of retardation or something.
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#19 Sep 18 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
Speaking of needing Ukon, I'm that one idiot who ended up making Shamash, and while I obviously don't get Aftermath it does really well in VW. Would I do better with an Ukon? I would assume so. Am I a liability with Shamash? No.

What many "Emp only" leaders don't get is that many Emp owners are either slack or misinformed with their TP/WS sets. An Emp is no guarantee of greatness, and Emp users can be outperformed. Emp isn't even ideal for all jobs. This is from someone who does own one 90 Emp.

Sadly though, what the leader says goes whether he's right or not. So yeah you probably are better off getting Ukon just to avoid the stigma of not having one.


Edited, Sep 18th 2012 7:40am by Camiie


Soooo true. Especially people with Empyreans or Relics that aren't even at gear haste cap but have nonsense Store TP build sets that don't even save them an extra hit.
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#20 Sep 18 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
Camiie wrote:
What many "Emp only" leaders don't get is that many Emp owners are either slack or misinformed with their TP/WS sets. An Emp is no guarantee of greatness, and Emp users can be outperformed. Emp isn't even ideal for all jobs. This is from someone who does own one 90 Emp.

Worse is when they demand Emps or Relics of jobs that... have crappy Empys and Relics. DRG is #1 for this, DRK on the Empy side. Or they want Armageddon instead of Gandiva on a RNG.


Yeah a friend of mine got a non-response when she told a shouter her DRK didn't have an Empy. She laughed and figured she was better off without joining them. I think the shout was for Kaggen of all things.

Quote:
Hasn't been a problem in a while though. Conservation of retardation or something.


Yeah a lot of leaders are savvy enough to know what's good and what's not. I've been on plenty or runs with my non-emp weapons on WAR and SAM. There's just still enough morons out there to cause some frustration every now and then. I'm just waiting for the day someone asks if my SMN has an Emp/Relic.

TheBarrister wrote:
Soooo true. Especially people with Empyreans or Relics that aren't even at gear haste cap but have nonsense Store TP build sets that don't even save them an extra hit.


What's funny is, since I don't have Emp/Relic on most of my DD I try to maximize my sets as best I can through the events I can do. Some obviously get an Emp/Relic/Mythic and max everything out and it shows. Others however think they can just ride their weapon to success and half-*** everything else. That shows as well.

Edited, Sep 18th 2012 11:09am by Camiie
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#22 Sep 18 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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I unlocked PLD so I could sub it on my BLU... it's 18... lol

I agree that it is ridiculous. SE needs to look at that. I think they've done fairly well offering up decent weapons for people who can't commit to an empy/relic for whatever reason, but they need to offer more shields and swords that make up for not dual wielding. There are TONS of weapons a person can offhand for nice stats, not really for shields though. Basically for non two-handed jobs not having dual weild makes you supergimp, which means /dnc or /nin only... which is limiting.

Honestly I'd like to see some more boss clubs and swords and shields to make up for the fact that single weilding sucks monkey balls. Or give every job (except maybe sch and blm and whm) native dual weild at 99 - yes I realize DW1 is gimpy but at least people would have options.

Edited, Sep 18th 2012 9:50am by Olorinus
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#23 Sep 18 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
I think it's ridiculous that certain jobs require you to have relics/empyreans before you can even touch the job without being ridiculed. Like PLD for example, better ding into an aegis/almace/ochain or you'll be laughed out of town! Which is why certain jobs I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole :P I don't even have PLD unlocked

But sadly that's the result of SE making ultimate stuff more obtainable, there's always going to be people who see it as a requirement for everything. Back at 75 you'd be laughed out of town for asking for relics for a shout pickup group.


I understand the point being made with copious exaggeration but the fact is no one really expects this, unless:

  • You claim this is your main job; and
  • You are trying to do content which is made possible and/or heavily depends upon having this gear
  • .

    People shouting have the right to be selective. Don't like it, start your own group.

    Does this change the fact that some of them set the bar too high? No.

    Does this change the fact that plenty of gimps who should be completing more basic content feel entitled to join? No.

    It's like the old argument "I didn't show up in good gear because I didn't have the time to farm gil" re-skinned. Either make time, or group with people with a lower bar.


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    #25 Sep 18 2012 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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    I dunno about that. Someone was shouting an Uptala and wanted super specific jobs. Well specifically not an OAT DRK for some reason. So I jumped on their PLD request, put on my half +2 gear, Mekira body, and lolSeigneur Shield, and just stood around with a couple skeletons hitting me for six fights watching their lolHoarfrost DRK die twice or more a fight and not have half the absorb-stat spells... and the best part is I got Ace's on that run for doing the least amount of work possible XD

    Edited, Sep 18th 2012 7:26pm by Raelix
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    #26 Sep 19 2012 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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    I just kicked the **** out of a Calda DRK with my Fulgurante on Akvaan. I **** you not I had to take filters off after I asked him how his Reso's were doing because I was in the reject party with no buffs. And he said "I dropped reso after I finished this weapon". And I **** a live kitten.
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    #27 Sep 19 2012 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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    PLDs gear expectations are in place to minimize the support requirement. If you can get away with only one WHM that is a slot for an extra set of procs, or just DD, or what have you. The biggest limiting factor to PLD is the hate cap.

    A moderately geared PLD, with proper support (1-2WHM or 1WHM and SCH or RDM) will survive just as well as the best geared PLD, and the best geared PLD will lose hate just as much as a moderately geared PLD once the DD's are set loose.

    At least thats been my experience returning and I join a lot of "low tier" shout groups the PLDs are at best in full +2 with decent weapons and shields, most are a mix of +1/+2 with decent weapons and shields.

    Gear is not everything, the team, and the skill of those playing means a whole lot more. Gear is simply an example of dedication, and time spent playing. You do not need the best of the best to succeed in this game, you need to gear your job properly, and know how to play it, and find people that are capable of the same.
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    #28 Sep 23 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Decent
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    If you want pick a weapon for the love a determinaded job or for just have fun then choose what you want. But if you are looking for a usefull weapon in legion, ADL, AV, PW, Neo Odin, then you need choose carefully.

    For excel during zerg situations get a Ukon, is a weapon you will never regret.

    Mighty Strikes + Ukko's fury 300% Aftermath lv3, then Spam upheaval is insane. Only a LV99 Rag war is superior in this aspect but for a short margin.

    If your linkshell kill mobs turtling them, using Aeigis plds. Gandiva is a good option. Examples of mobs probably need to be turtled, Arch ultima, Neo odin etc.

    For zerging scenarios get your ukon war
    When your LS are turtling mobs get your gandiva ranger

    Pick a twastar is a bad idea.

    The people only use thief for Feint - Bully - TH and usually one thief per ally is allowed.

    A verethragna is a great weapon, monk is a solid DD. In low buffs scenarios monk and war are about equal damage, but when you talk about super buffed scenarios + two hours, war is miles ahead of monk.

    If we will compare NQ DD VS NQ DD, the skill is more important than the gear i agree totally. But when we compare Competent NQ DD vs Competent Empy/Relic DD the gear have a big impact.

    As an example a ukon lv 99 have about 34% damage diference vs Ukon lv 85. If we use a parse of 55k same player, identical TP/WS sets, the damage diference is a lot 18 700 only for use ukon lv 99 vs ukon lv 85. This is the reason for upgrade a ukon lv 99 cost 147 - 155 mil.

    Ukon Lv 85 - 55 000 damage
    Ukon lv 99 - 73 700 damage

    As a last note, in low buff scenarios all DDS will be close Skills/Gear will define the damage diference, but in high buff scenarios war is the king. Seriously if a Twastar Thf is outparsing an ukon war during a high buff scenario that warrior is a total sh*tty, garbage and illiterate player.




    Edited, Sep 23rd 2012 9:13am by DaNTeiL
    #29 Sep 23 2012 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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    DaNTeiL wrote:
    If you want pick a weapon for the love a determinaded job or for just have fun then choose what you want. But if you are looking for a usefull weapon in legion, ADL, AV, PW, Neo Odin, then you need choose carefully.

    For excel during zerg situations get a Ukon, is a weapon you will never regret.

    Insert No DRG for party reference here.
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