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WHM or BRDFollow

#1 Aug 13 2012 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I don't have time to play like I did 4 years ago... finishing school and making my way into life with a wife and baby on the way....

I play with a small group of friends, and am not really sure what to be. My main is RDM, I play as a soloing Melee RDM... but I need something for group content, I am leveling BLM so that our group can farm seals fro the armor, but for our events, and boss fights, I am not sure what to be.... BRD i know is the best at buffing a group, but I am not sure how much they are used these days.
WHM we also need because we don't have any dedicated healers.... But I see 100s of WHM running around jeuno and am wondering if they are really in short supply or not...

Need some opinions on what to level and invest money into.
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#2 Aug 13 2012 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
When you mention group content, what are you referring to? I play both whm and brd. For the majority of events (and VW pickup groups) I am asked to come on brd. While brd is not as useful inside Aby, there is still a need for it outside of Aby. DDs still love double marches and SV brd rotations are still useful in endgame.

From a skilling perspective, you may want to go with whm, since your skills should already be up to par because of your rdm. Taking on brd means you will have 3 new magic skills to work on.
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#3 Aug 13 2012 at 6:45 AM Rating: Good
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I have no problem with skilling at all. ****, After rushing RDM to 99 i spent a week getting all my skills to cap on crabs... oh how i miss the old days.

As for content, none of us have done the abyssea content, and a few of the newer people want to run the older content, like zilart, and Cop and Nyzul stuffs.

I know I wouldnt mind getting at least one mythic weapon. RDM seems to have become a solo/***** around job to me, since its not really needed in groups anymore.
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#4 Aug 13 2012 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've found that it's not so much picking a job to level to 99, it's picking a job to max out and get the best equipment for. I have 4 level 99 jobs, but of those I would say that NIN and BLM are the only ones that I've geared appropriately so far (still working on them). So I can be a WHM or THF if I need to be and we don't have anyone to fill that spot, but they're not my optimal jobs right now.
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#5 Aug 13 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Excellent
OddlerJiub wrote:
As for content, none of us have done the abyssea content, and a few of the newer people want to run the older content, like zilart, and Cop and Nyzul stuffs.

I know I wouldnt mind getting at least one mythic weapon. RDM seems to have become a solo/***** around job to me, since its not really needed in groups anymore.

For Aby, you will want a whm. However, you have already mentioned leveling blm for Aby staggers, so I suggest leveling brd to /brd levels at the least for staggers. Quite a few NMs in Aby can be duo'd blu/nin and blm/whm, but you are missing a couple of staggers and TH when you go that route.

For older content, I like to run on rdm because to be honest, that is the only place rdm can still be useful. I rdm/sch and my BF goes blu/nin quite a bit on stuff like Limbus. I don't think the raw power of whm is necessary on older content.

WHM pulls ahead on newer content because of cureskin, but even with the new healing magic updates, Cure III and IV and used more often than not (at least for me). DDs and tanks do not have the HP pool outside of Aby that show a need for V & VI. WHM also pull ahead in DD parties because of their curaga power to keep the entire party alive in 1 cast.

I also agree with Wint on working on gearing up 1 job to its highest potential. I can thf, dnc, smn, war, etc but when it comes to my best jobs I am on brd the most or whm. BLM is honestly my main tho and I still spend time gearing it up and upgrading items, even though I haven't had much use for it lately.
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#6 Aug 13 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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If you do go BLM for Abyssea or VW purposes, be prepared to sink a considerable amount of gil for spells you will never be able to sell back and never actually use for anything other than to get procs


Quote:
WHM pulls ahead on newer content because of cureskin, but even with the new healing magic updates, Cure III and IV and used more often than not (at least for me). DDs and tanks do not have the HP pool outside of Aby that show a need for V & VI. WHM also pull ahead in DD parties because of their curaga power to keep the entire party alive in 1 cast.


With Healing skill actually skilled up, I do believe Cure 4 is now the most efficient single target cure for WHMs. In the past Cure 5 was a significant step up but now the step is much shorter, pushing 4's efficiency ahead.
#7 Aug 13 2012 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
Fynlar wrote:

With Healing skill actually skilled up, I do believe Cure 4 is now the most efficient single target cure for WHMs. In the past Cure 5 was a significant step up but now the step is much shorter, pushing 4's efficiency ahead.

Agreed, but you would be surprised how many whms still cast V and VI, even when the person they are healing isn't even in the yellow yet.
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#8 Aug 13 2012 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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Wasn't there a reason for that on Cure V though? I thought the enmity formula was different?
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#9 Aug 13 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Drusenija wrote:
Wasn't there a reason for that on Cure V though? I thought the enmity formula was different?

It is. Cure V enmity is lower than Cure IV. If I am duo'ing then I am more likely to Cure V, but in today's endgame, there is no reason for a whm to pull hate with the way DDs let loose on the mobs. Again, this is my own experience though.
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#10 Aug 13 2012 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for all the insight. I am thinking of doing WHM BLM and RDM now, gearing them all up for their perspective rolls. WHM for healing BLM for nuking, and RDM for solo/playaround/hopewegetagoodupdatesoon

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#11 Aug 13 2012 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Elspetta wrote:
Fynlar wrote:

With Healing skill actually skilled up, I do believe Cure 4 is now the most efficient single target cure for WHMs. In the past Cure 5 was a significant step up but now the step is much shorter, pushing 4's efficiency ahead.

Agreed, but you would be surprised how many whms still cast V and VI, even when the person they are healing isn't even in the yellow yet.

My Cure IV restores around 900hp, making it only marginally weaker than Cure V. These days enmity is less of an issue, and the only reason to cast Cure VI is fighting powerful NMs which can take off large amounts of HP in quick succession while Cure V is in cooldown.

Personally, I think it's quite disappointing how weak Cure VI turned out to be especially since they updated the cure system. Cure V and VI are in need of a revamp to make them more worthwhile in my humble opinion, but at least the higher tier cures have fixed enmity for more prolonged battles.

Edited, Aug 13th 2012 12:14pm by Glitterhands
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#12 Aug 13 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Agreed, but you would be surprised how many whms still cast V and VI, even when the person they are healing isn't even in the yellow yet.


A lot of Abyssea-era WHMs, especially dual boxers, had no reason to ever macro any ST Cures other than 5/6. I personally know a few who are like this, so this is a likely explanation for at least some of them.

Quote:
Personally, I think it's quite disappointing how weak Cure VI turned out to be especially since they updated the cure system.


Given how low our max HP pools are outside of Abyssea, I'm not terribly surprised. What I do think needs to be done, though, is a reduction of 6's MP cost.

6 is like the MP cost of 5+4 together, but the result was like 5+3. (5+2 now, with the Healing skill update). It's totally pathetic.
#13 Aug 13 2012 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
With Healing skill actually skilled up, I do believe Cure 4 is now the most efficient single target cure for WHMs. In the past Cure 5 was a significant step up but now the step is much shorter, pushing 4's efficiency ahead.

I've got gear for around +40% Cure Potency. In a VW fight, I can spam 3/4 all the time and keep people up to the 90%ish level. It's insane. Add to that 3 refresh from gear and 3 more from /RDM when I remember to cast Refresh. I do worry a bit about the hate, but hate is so broken now that it doesn't matter.

A big limit now is simply casting speed. And Curaga is mostly useless when people wander all over the place on both sides of the mob in VW. Forget Curaga, it's hard enough to stay at a safe distance from the mob to avoid aura-type debuffs and heal individual people who run to all different sides of the mob.

Elspetta wrote:
Agreed, but you would be surprised how many whms still cast V and VI, even when the person they are healing isn't even in the yellow yet.

I saw someone doing that in a VW. It was painful. You can tell who is a good WHM because they're not spamming 5/6 all the time. A good WHM should be able to tell which cure to use by the size of the bar and adjust for people with different max HP, while trying to get to 90-95% HP. Sure, sometimes you have to alternate cures for for the recast, and that's the only reason to over-cure.

And then there's when you're healing a PLD tank. You shouldn't cure bomb them, but let them cast cure spells to build hate, or at least try with hate so broken. Regen IV is great for this. And Refresh/Devotion your PLD, dammit! Then again, if the PLD's MP bar stays full all the time, I think that's a sign of a sub-par PLD.

Drusenija wrote:
Wasn't there a reason for that on Cure V though? I thought the enmity formula was different?

The enmity formula is broken. It doesn't really matter unless there's a hate reset right as you drop a Cure IV.

Glitterhands wrote:
Personally, I think it's quite disappointing how weak Cure VI turned out to be especially since they updated the cure system. Cure V and VI are in need of a revamp to make them more worthwhile in my humble opinion, but at least the higher tier cures have fixed enmity for more prolonged battles.

I was disappointed with Cure VI from the start. It was horribly less efficient than Cure V. But we knew then that the level was going to 99, so I figured it might actually be decent at 90 or so. Well here we are, and it's still an MP pig.

Edited, Aug 13th 2012 9:57pm by Elwynbelwyn
#14 Aug 13 2012 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I've got gear for around +40% Cure Potency. In a VW fight, I can spam 3/4 all the time and keep people up to the 90%ish level. It's insane. Add to that 3 refresh from gear and 3 more from /RDM when I remember to cast Refresh. I do worry a bit about the hate, but hate is so broken now that it doesn't matter.


Hate doesn't matter in VW cuz everyone can tank, assuming everyone has their Fanatic's Drinks. In fact, since mages are more likely to have them ready than melees are, pulling hate as a mage in VW can even help the group if you're hitting an unlucky streak on procs, although you likely won't have the hate for long. (It helps if you know in advance that you're going to pull hate, so that you can avoid having the mob run around to come and hit you)

Edited, Aug 13th 2012 10:23pm by Fynlar
#15 Aug 13 2012 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Elwynbelwyn wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
With Healing skill actually skilled up, I do believe Cure 4 is now the most efficient single target cure for WHMs. In the past Cure 5 was a significant step up but now the step is much shorter, pushing 4's efficiency ahead.

I've got gear for around +40% Cure Potency. In a VW fight, I can spam 3/4 all the time and keep people up to the 90%ish level. It's insane. Add to that 3 refresh from gear and 3 more from /RDM when I remember to cast Refresh. I do worry a bit about the hate, but hate is so broken now that it doesn't matter.

A big limit now is simply casting speed. And Curaga is mostly useless when people wander all over the place on both sides of the mob in VW. Forget Curaga, it's hard enough to stay at a safe distance from the mob to avoid aura-type debuffs and heal individual people who run to all different sides of the mob.


A properly timed curaga is amazing. When you see a big spell or dangerous tp move coming, time the curaga to land as soon as possible afterwards. If you waste a little mp it doesn't even matter, since you have tons of temps, /sch or /rdm, and +2 whm pants at your disposal.

Elwynbelwyn wrote:
Elspetta wrote:
Agreed, but you would be surprised how many whms still cast V and VI, even when the person they are healing isn't even in the yellow yet.

I saw someone doing that in a VW. It was painful. You can tell who is a good WHM because they're not spamming 5/6 all the time. A good WHM should be able to tell which cure to use by the size of the bar and adjust for people with different max HP, while trying to get to 90-95% HP. Sure, sometimes you have to alternate cures for for the recast, and that's the only reason to over-cure.

And then there's when you're healing a PLD tank. You shouldn't cure bomb them, but let them cast cure spells to build hate, or at least try with hate so broken. Regen IV is great for this. And Refresh/Devotion your PLD, dammit! Then again, if the PLD's MP bar stays full all the time, I think that's a sign of a sub-par PLD.


Why does it matter if the WHMs in VW use mostly Cure V or VI? You will never run out of mp unless you are horrible. Same for the Pld. You should not be running out of mp in VW. I would rather have someone fully cured with a more powerful cureskin using a cure V or VI than be at the 90% level that you stated and get killed. I could see if this was some sort of mp strained event, but those are very rare in today's FFXI.
#16 Aug 13 2012 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Dantedmc wrote:
Why does it matter if the WHMs in VW use mostly Cure V or VI? You will never run out of mp unless you are horrible. Same for the Pld. You should not be running out of mp in VW. I would rather have someone fully cured with a more powerful cureskin using a cure V or VI than be at the 90% level that you stated and get killed. I could see if this was some sort of mp strained event, but those are very rare in today's FFXI.

It's very easy to eat through temp items like crazy if you constantly spam our two most expensive heals. Even the best white mages will need to recover if they try to maintain that, especially on some of the harder Voidwatch bosses unless practically everyone is using fanatics/fools. Sometimes gauging the situation and using the appropriate heal is a far better course of action than giving someone a tiny boost to cureskin which won't even last for a single hit.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 12:04am by Glitterhands
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#17 Aug 13 2012 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Glitterhands wrote:
Dantedmc wrote:
Why does it matter if the WHMs in VW use mostly Cure V or VI? You will never run out of mp unless you are horrible. Same for the Pld. You should not be running out of mp in VW. I would rather have someone fully cured with a more powerful cureskin using a cure V or VI than be at the 90% level that you stated and get killed. I could see if this was some sort of mp strained event, but those are very rare in today's FFXI.

It's very easy to eat through temp items like crazy if you constantly spam our two most expensive heals. Even the best white mages will need to recover if they try to maintain that, especially on some of the harder Voidwatch bosses unless practically everyone is using fanatics/fools. Sometimes gauging the situation and using the appropriate heal is a far better course of action than giving someone a tiny boost to cureskin which won't even last for a single hit.


I don't know how you blow through 2 lucid ether IIs (500mp each) 1 lucid ether III (1000 mp) 2 mana powders (25% mp each) and a 300mp mana mist that get restored every time you proc a HV weakness. This isn't even including convert / refresh or LA / sublimation and +2 whm pants or the up to 7 tic refresh whm can get on gear.
#18 Aug 13 2012 at 11:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't know how you blow through 2 lucid ether IIs (500mp each) 1 lucid ether III (1000 mp) 2 mana powders (25% mp each) and a 300mp mana mist that get restored every time you proc a HV weakness. This isn't even including convert / refresh or LA / sublimation and +2 whm pants or the up to 7 tic refresh whm can get on gear.


Willing to bet most WHMs in VW don't have all of that, even if they're otherwise well skilled/geared.
#19 Aug 14 2012 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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OddlerJiub wrote:
I know I wouldnt mind getting at least one mythic weapon. RDM seems to have become a solo/***** around job to me, since its not really needed in groups anymore.


Uhh...really? Do you have any idea what is involved in making a mythic weapon?


#20 Aug 14 2012 at 5:01 AM Rating: Good
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After update Cure IV and III become the staple healing spells. The absolute best though is Curaga III / IV. Curaga III is really nice but IV is just godlike in power. Make sure your wearing Emp +2 pants when using it though. Curaga has a 15 foot AoE range, that should be big enough to reach all the melees around an NM, unless it's something stupidly large and their on different sides. Even then it will typically hit at least 2/3 of your DDs and is faster then trying to cast two separate cure spells. That's the whole point of curaga, not having to individually cure people when the fanatics / PD is down and the NM is using stupid moves.
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#21 Aug 14 2012 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
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Dantedmc wrote:
Elwynbelwyn wrote:
A big limit now is simply casting speed. And Curaga is mostly useless when people wander all over the place on both sides of the mob in VW. Forget Curaga, it's hard enough to stay at a safe distance from the mob to avoid aura-type debuffs and heal individual people who run to all different sides of the mob.


A properly timed curaga is amazing. When you see a big spell or dangerous tp move coming, time the curaga to land as soon as possible afterwards. If you waste a little mp it doesn't even matter, since you have tons of temps, /sch or /rdm, and +2 whm pants at your disposal.

Did you even read what I wrote? A "properly timed curaga" is kind of pointless if only two people (other than yourself) are even in range because everyone wanders all over the place during VW fights. Well, I suppose if you got right up to the mob it would work, but then you get hit with Silencega spam/aura.

Quote:
Why does it matter if the WHMs in VW use mostly Cure V or VI? You will never run out of mp unless you are horrible. Same for the Pld. You should not be running out of mp in VW. I would rather have someone fully cured with a more powerful cureskin using a cure V or VI than be at the 90% level that you stated and get killed. I could see if this was some sort of mp strained event, but those are very rare in today's FFXI.

Oh boy, now we've gone from "nobody does anything but Abyssea" to "nobody does anything but VW"! Because everyone has VW temp items everywhere in every endgame event!

And as has already been said, cureskin ain't all that.
#22 Aug 14 2012 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cureskin really is more awesome than people typically give it credit for. It's one of the HUGE factors that cemented WHM as the healer of choice and everyone else as wannabes, and it's one of the things you really miss when you try to main heal on any other job (at least, I sure do)

It's like adding 300-400 HP to your cure that has the added benefit of reducing enmity bleed of whoever you're curing.

But yeah, using a higher Cure just for better cureskin? Usually not the best idea, unless you are specifically using it as part of a strategy to help someone survive a single high damage hit that they would not be able to survive otherwise (ghetto Miga, as I tend to call it... and yes, I know it's actually nothing like Migawari, don't have to point it out). Cure 4 already gives around 300 cureskin with Orison body +2 and optimal gear/skill; it usually suffices.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 9:08am by Fynlar
#23 Aug 14 2012 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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back to OP - I really like BRD. I find it more fun than WHM... but WHM is way more useful overall.

However, I am addicted to brd's movement speed. SO NICE.

Edited, Aug 14th 2012 10:55am by Olorinus
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#24 Aug 14 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Elwynbelwyn wrote:
Dantedmc wrote:
Elwynbelwyn wrote:
A big limit now is simply casting speed. And Curaga is mostly useless when people wander all over the place on both sides of the mob in VW. Forget Curaga, it's hard enough to stay at a safe distance from the mob to avoid aura-type debuffs and heal individual people who run to all different sides of the mob.


A properly timed curaga is amazing. When you see a big spell or dangerous tp move coming, time the curaga to land as soon as possible afterwards. If you waste a little mp it doesn't even matter, since you have tons of temps, /sch or /rdm, and +2 whm pants at your disposal.

Did you even read what I wrote? A "properly timed curaga" is kind of pointless if only two people (other than yourself) are even in range because everyone wanders all over the place during VW fights. Well, I suppose if you got right up to the mob it would work, but then you get hit with Silencega spam/aura.


If the curaga hits more than 1 person it is a success, because those people cured are each one less person you have to worry about. Curaga on two or more people is better than Cure one person -> try to cure again -> Unable to cast at this time.

Elwynbelwyn wrote:
Quote:
Why does it matter if the WHMs in VW use mostly Cure V or VI? You will never run out of mp unless you are horrible. Same for the Pld. You should not be running out of mp in VW. I would rather have someone fully cured with a more powerful cureskin using a cure V or VI than be at the 90% level that you stated and get killed. I could see if this was some sort of mp strained event, but those are very rare in today's FFXI.

Oh boy, now we've gone from "nobody does anything but Abyssea" to "nobody does anything but VW"! Because everyone has VW temp items everywhere in every endgame event!


Please tell me an event that could make whm struggle with mp recovery, The only one that even sounds plausible is Legion. Not to mention most of your post was talking about VW so I just followed suit.

Elwynbelwyn wrote:
And as has already been said, cureskin ain't all that.


Free 300-400 damage absorbed on cure IV - VI isn't all that? Smiley: lol
#25 Aug 14 2012 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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Dantedmc wrote:
If the curaga hits more than 1 person it is a success, because those people cured are each one less person you have to worry about. Curaga on two or more people is better than Cure one person -> try to cure again -> Unable to cast at this time.

Except when the person you're targeting dies while you're casting because of how long Curaga takes to cast, which aborts your spell, causes you to freak out because now the second person still needs heal so you try to cure them and get "Unable to cast at this time" and now both people are dead.

If only two people need cures, it's usually safer to heal the one in the most danger first with a single-target, because it will land much faster than Curaga would. Then cure the second person ASAP. There are exceptions, of course. Sometimes you know another big AOE is coming and it's Curaga or bust (which is always fun because then you already know that after your current Curaga, you're most likely going to need another one).

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#26 Aug 14 2012 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
Dantedmc wrote:
If the curaga hits more than 1 person it is a success, because those people cured are each one less person you have to worry about. Curaga on two or more people is better than Cure one person -> try to cure again -> Unable to cast at this time.

Except when the person you're targeting dies while you're casting because of how long Curaga takes to cast, which aborts your spell, causes you to freak out because now the second person still needs heal so you try to cure them and get "Unable to cast at this time" and now both people are dead.

If only two people need cures, it's usually safer to heal the one in the most danger first with a single-target, because it will land much faster than Curaga would. Then cure the second person ASAP. There are exceptions, of course.


Curaga IV with -80% casting time takes a little over 1 second to cast. Cure V and IV takes .5 seconds with the same. Now I have had some people die even midcasting Cure IV or V, but as I said just time the curaga and you should be fine most of the time.


Quote:
Sometimes you know another big AOE is coming and it's Curaga or bust (which is always fun because then you already know that after your current Curaga, you're most likely going to need another one).


This is pretty much what i was talking about anyway.

Dantedmc wrote:
A properly timed curaga is amazing. When you see a big spell or dangerous tp move coming, time the curaga to land as soon as possible afterwards. If you waste a little mp it doesn't even matter, since you have tons of temps, /sch or /rdm, and +2 whm pants at your disposal.
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