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[dev] Evolith RenewalFollow

#1 Aug 08 2012 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okipuit wrote:

Greetings!

It seems that there are a good amount of people in all regions asking for revamps to the Evolith system. Currently, this is somewhat low on the priority scale with everything else that is being developed. However, we are planning on a larger scale for Evolith, so instead of just adjustments we thinking more along the lines of a total renewal.

With that said, the Development Team doesn’t want to rush anything so that the system is user friendly and something that can be employed for the long term. Hang in there and we will be sure to update you all once we hear some information down the line.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26041-Signing-Synergy-Recipes-and-general-Cinder-suggestions?p=350085#post350085
#2 Aug 08 2012 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I got chills just reading the title of this thread.
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#3 Aug 08 2012 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
I got chills just reading the title of this thread.
Were they multiplyin'?
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#4 Aug 08 2012 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering the massive failure of the Evolith system, this comes as no surprise.
#5 Aug 08 2012 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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yeah... they might want to do that. Of course, they are so tight-fisted with stat improvements that I am pretty skeptical that this will ever amount to anything.

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#6 Aug 08 2012 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
The concept behind it was interesting, but the execution just wasn't any good. While the weapons that could be made could be really good with the proper evoliths, the armor was just way too situational to really work in the long run.
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#7kimjongil76, Posted: Aug 08 2012 at 6:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well Voirsutes would say I am the only one who liked the evoliths. And I did wish many times they would extend or overhaul the event. Seems I got my wish.
#8 Aug 08 2012 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Please, dear god no.

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#9 Aug 08 2012 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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The best revamp to Evolith would be to pretend it never happened.
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#10 Aug 08 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Evolith suckage whining actually predates RDM obsolescence whining, so this is progress!
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#11 Aug 08 2012 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
Evolith suckage whining actually predates RDM obsolescence whining, so this is progress!

Depends on where you stood. :P

But yeah, short of making things more of a gem-like system with more universal quality evoliths and a broader range of socketable items, it's not gonna go far. My main concern would be if socketing becomes available with things you could mog slip, you'd no longer be able to store them.

And get Alchemy involved on the crafting of evoliths. :P
#12TheBarrister, Posted: Aug 08 2012 at 8:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No one is asking for this. If you think they are, you just can't spot trolls or idiots on your own forums. There are plenty of both. Want an honest answer. Do a poll in Port Jeuno?
#13 Aug 08 2012 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe by "revamp", they mean to completely redo the system...?

I can dream, right?
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#14 Aug 08 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
kimjongil76 wrote:
Well Voirsutes would say I am the only one who liked the evoliths. And I did wish many times they would extend or overhaul the event. Seems I got my wish.




The original system wasn't any good as far as the armor goes. The weapons, as said, were decent if you could get good augments on them. It was the armor that was just too situational to be worthwhile. Nowadays (and even back then really) no one fights a single type of mob enough to warrant making a gear set specific for those mobs. The old system was an interesting concept, just the execution was very poorly done.
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#15 Aug 08 2012 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I were trying to create a system that worked, here's how I'd do it:

- Existing crafted armor stays. Each piece of armor has 4 possible "sockets", one for each element. However, you can have a max of 4 elements on each armor, because of the way the elemental wheel cancels things out.

- Each element socket can hold any stat associated with that element. Fire resistance +20? Sure. Dex + 20? Why not. But you couldn't do Ice potency+20 and DEX+20, because wind and ice are opposing elements.

- Current evoliths suck. Toss them all out and redo them with new, clearly stated bonuses.

- Pick your four stats, fuse them to your armor via synergy. I'd go for melee body with STR+20 (fire), DEX+20 (wind), shock spikes (thunder), and regain+1 (light.)

- You could also stack elements, like if a BLM was insane and wanted to make an ultimate ice damage outfit, go for INT+20, ice damage bonus +10%, ice accuracy +15%, and ice spikes.

- Evoliths would still be found in chests, but the really good ones would also be added into KS99s and the like.

- They would be bazaarable and not rare/ex, so you could hold muliples, sell multiples, and go shopping in Rolanmart to actually build your outfit.
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#16 Aug 08 2012 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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I cannot think of a less useful system to waste energy revamping. It earned its place on the event list of shame.
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#17 Aug 08 2012 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can understand why a lot of people hate the evoliths and the system that accompanied them, but I think that's all the more reason to want a revamp so that it is actually useful. Being honest here, FFXI has very little in the way of customizable equipment. Most of those which it does allow to augment gives you entirely random augments you have no control over, aside from one. The evolith system.

Now browbeat the idea of overly specialised equipment all you like, if the evolith system was truly revamped to allow us full customization over our equipment (adding +5 dex here, +5 str there etc) there would be a massive increase in the desire for craftable equipment as well as plenty of potential new content stemming from the acquisition of the rarer evoliths.

I won't speculate on how it will work, or how it should work, at least not yet. I'm excited about the potential for the system, not its poor, sad history.
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- Each element socket can hold any stat associated with that element. Fire resistance +20? Sure. Dex + 20? Why not. But you couldn't do Ice potency+20 and DEX+20, because wind and ice are opposing elements.
A minor correction, AGI would be the wind attribute. DEX is actually lightning based, so would work fine in your example.

Edited, Aug 9th 2012 1:01am by Glitterhands
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#18 Aug 08 2012 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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Vs. beetles: water resist +10
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#20 Aug 09 2012 at 2:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Overcomplicating the system doesn't help, as demonstrated by the funky socket types within specific slots on top of the situational bonuses. This also means no annoying stuff like elemental canceling or going Ice affecting Wind-related stats.

If a true revamp is within SE's genuine interest and not just some lala post to make us think they care.
1) Determine which slots will receive sockets and how many. (Visible equipment only, or everything fair game?)
2) Decide if level requirements will be imposed on enhancements. (No level 99 evoliths on a level 10 item, for example)
3) Bolster basic stats, but also consider useful unique augments. (STR/DEX/VIT/etc. for basic, something like "Waltz grants Regen effect" or "Dia also inflicts MDEF down" for unique stuff)
4) Crafted items should always offer more sockets than dropped equipment. (Namely to help offset the often superiority of dropped items to crafted goods -- Peacock Charms vs. Any other mid-30's neck piece, for example)
5) Will socketing an item make it impossible to trade? If so, implement a means to clean/remove sockets?
6) Give at least the basic evoliths reliable sources and don't tie them to heavy NPC expenses. (Crafting and possible HQs, 1 NM kill from hunts, possible trials)

There's probably more to build on that, but it's basically what they should start with.
#22 Aug 09 2012 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I could see SE doing a copy of the FF14 system. It isn't structured too badly. The different colored materia require certain HELM'd catalyst to meld to the gear. And each materia is only socket-able to certain gear types (or multiple types). Ranking of each materia shows which level of gear you can use it on.

As long as the evoliths aren't silly with their stats (+10 darkness vs light elemental or something), a re-vamp could make the system actually useful.
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#23 Aug 09 2012 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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i raid in everquest, also solo and group with my guild (linkshell)

every piece of equipment has slots (well 99.9%), whether its a tradeskill made or raid (7-72 chars usually 54), group or quest reward or solo etc reward. these slots vary for weapons/armour and whether its a raid or group level or tradeskill source. these slots are for augments. augments can be tradeskilled (mainly for tradeskill made items), dropped from trash mobs whether solo/group, NM dropped after group skill, quest rewards, raid trash drop, raid NM drop or progression/achievement award.

depending on what you want and your class (you are only 1 job) to fill slots with augments that suit you. main tanks go for hps/def/resists, rangers go for bow damage plus etc. you get a bank filled with some augments that wont fit in slots you have available, but you chose what was inserted. some augments can be removed and a different augment can always be inserted if you want.

no tradeskill is needed to insert/disolve/remove these augments. tradeskill augments can be sold by AH, a few minor augments that are loot can also be sold by AH. the vast majority are Ex, some rar/ex.

that system i like and makes more sense than the rubbish ffxi has
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#26 Aug 09 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh, Rael, no bickering. Rael, if he wants to talk about his current dislike and presumed pending dislike for the system, that's his opinion and he's welcome to it. Zelduh, while that's the case, it isn't necessary to repeat the same thing over and over again in the topic. Likewise, even though the old system was flawed, it's too early to tell whether or not this new system will follow suit. Besides, it was a low priority to them (their own words) so it may not be something we'll see for awhile now, and given that it's a total renewal, there's always a chance it could be better.
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#27 Aug 09 2012 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Awesome, I can finally get some better int augs for my war so I can fight smarter.
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#28 Aug 09 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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To me, the whole Evolith system is just a rip of WoW's jewelcrafting & socket system, only it's done incredibly wrong.

They need to introduce a reliable way to obtain materials for, and frequently craft these Evoliths if they really want this to succeed. If I can't go on the AH and find 50 of the "second-best" Evoliths of any slot of my choosing for a reasonable price, then it will fail, because the gear just won't work without evoliths, and most people aren't going to want to spend forever obtaining an item with "meh" stats just to spend forever trying to jump through ridiculous hoops for Evoliths just to pull it out of "Meh" status. FFXI has a tendency to design systems like this with the idea of "Fun" but accidentally (because it's so close to "fun" and an easy mistake) make them "Torture".

1,000 VW Plates for 1 +10 STR evolith = win in S/Es eyes.
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#29 Aug 09 2012 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Overcomplicating the system doesn't help, as demonstrated by the funky socket types within specific slots on top of the situational bonuses. This also means no annoying stuff like elemental canceling or going Ice affecting Wind-related stats.

If a true revamp is within SE's genuine interest and not just some lala post to make us think they care.
1) Determine which slots will receive sockets and how many. (Visible equipment only, or everything fair game?)
2) Decide if level requirements will be imposed on enhancements. (No level 99 evoliths on a level 10 item, for example)
3) Bolster basic stats, but also consider useful unique augments. (STR/DEX/VIT/etc. for basic, something like "Waltz grants Regen effect" or "Dia also inflicts MDEF down" for unique stuff)
4) Crafted items should always offer more sockets than dropped equipment. (Namely to help offset the often superiority of dropped items to crafted goods -- Peacock Charms vs. Any other mid-30's neck piece, for example)
5) Will socketing an item make it impossible to trade? If so, implement a means to clean/remove sockets?
6) Give at least the basic evoliths reliable sources and don't tie them to heavy NPC expenses. (Crafting and possible HQs, 1 NM kill from hunts, possible trials)

There's probably more to build on that, but it's basically what they should start with.



I agree with your post but just so you know, 5, yes it's impossible to trade once you put a socket on it and there's already an item to remove sockets.
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#30 Aug 09 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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They should just make the evolith system more or less like the tatter system, maybe slightly toned down. The old evoliths just seem like so much work for absolutely no reward.
#31 Aug 09 2012 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always found it absurd that despite SE devs knowing we all have inventory problems, not only does SE never try to alleviate this by making more multipurpose gear, but they went ahead and added Evolith, which is another layer of situational gear.
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#32 Aug 09 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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A lot of comments here argue that the existing system is highly flawed, to which I'm certain a vast majority including myself would agree on. However, no one has actually addressed the benefits of what could be done to ensure we have a system which does indeed work well. Why don't we try to look more positively at this, since SE is clearly looking into revamping the entire system. They even said as much in their own post!
Okipuit wrote:
However, we are planning on a larger scale for Evolith, so instead of just adjustments we thinking more along the lines of a total renewal.

Instead of reminding us why the current system is so horribly flawed, why not think more about the potential of a customisation system which actually works. FFXI is one of the few long-running MMO's left which doesn't really have one yet.
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#33 Aug 09 2012 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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The 2hr reduction evoliths would have been nice to have if they hadn't been so weak. A minute or two of 2hr reduction doesn't make the work that's required worth it in my mind. If they were percentage based, I could see it being possibly useful. If there was an evolith with a 10% 2hr reduction, if you added that to 5 gear pieces, you could possibly cut your 2hr recast down to an hour. That kind of reduction was what I was looking for the evolith system to actually be able to do, but it has fallen way short of expectations.
#34 Aug 09 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Glitterhands wrote:
A lot of comments here argue that the existing system is highly flawed, to which I'm certain a vast majority including myself would agree on. However, no one has actually addressed the benefits of what could be done to ensure we have a system which does indeed work well. Why don't we try to look more positively at this, since SE is clearly looking into revamping the entire system. They even said as much in their own post!
Okipuit wrote:
However, we are planning on a larger scale for Evolith, so instead of just adjustments we thinking more along the lines of a total renewal.

Instead of reminding us why the current system is so horribly flawed, why not think more about the potential of a customisation system which actually works. FFXI is one of the few long-running MMO's left which doesn't really have one yet.

*scratches her head* Short of theorycrafting on how specific evoliths would look aside from "unique" ones, I'm not sure what else you'd like to see out of a proposition. Let's look at something like the Phorcys Korazin: STR+16, ATK+5%, MATK+7, Increases WS Damage. Running off what I said earlier, this would probably get 1 socket tops, and I'd suspect people would dump STR equivalents into it. Let's just level 99 stuff could be in a +9 STR evolith, bumping it up for STR+25.

Okay, that makes the piece a fairly hefty WS piece. Let's say an HQ crafted armor gets 4 sockets, then. To be comparative, they can put 3 of the +9 STR evoliths in, giving it +27 STR. Maybe there won't be an ATK+5% equivalent, instead something more like ATK+15 for that level. The Nyzul body will be better, sure, but someone could then use the crafted/evolith'd until they get that or find some other reasonable alternative. A strong enough purpose for the system? Well, I'd say it'd depend on the depth of the evoliths.

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I agree with your post but just so you know, 5, yes it's impossible to trade once you put a socket on it and there's already an item to remove sockets.

Aye, I'm aware of the current system. Was mainly a postulation for the revamp. If augmented goods could be traded/bazaared (unlikely AH'd), it could lead more to a market where "finished" equipment is sold to the end user as opposed to individual pieces. I'm not sure I like this since it'd cut down on the overall demand for potentially crafted pieces in the process since people could just sell them off once no longer needed. Cleaning out all the sockets and at least selling the blank armor can work, as it'd still let the evolith market thrive.

Edited, Aug 9th 2012 2:43pm by Seriha
#35 Aug 09 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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LuckymanBahamut wrote:
The 2hr reduction evoliths would have been nice to have if they hadn't been so weak. A minute or two of 2hr reduction doesn't make the work that's required worth it in my mind. If they were percentage based, I could see it being possibly useful. If there was an evolith with a 10% 2hr reduction, if you added that to 5 gear pieces, you could possibly cut your 2hr recast down to an hour. That kind of reduction was what I was looking for the evolith system to actually be able to do, but it has fallen way short of expectations.
Ah, the infamous one minute off a two hour cooldown evoliths. There was one, and only one, time in my years of playing FFXI where that actually would have been useful--where I died with under a minute to go on my 2 hour cooldown timer and the 2 hour ability would have saved me. And that was as a level 12 character soloing bees or something in La Theine. It was less time and aggravation just to kill a handful more mobs to make up the lost XP and tabs than it would have been to camp a NM to get the stupid evolith and fiddle with the crafting and non-storeable non-tradeable resulting gear. So freaking stupid.
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#37 Aug 09 2012 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It seems that there are a good amount of people in all regions asking for revamps to the Evolith system.


I didn't know there were that many. I mentioned it a few times, but purely from the angle that a huge system was put in place and I felt bad for the developers who programmed all that in only for it to be completely ignored because when you look into it, it is *very* extensive and would only require revamping the stats and limitations, not the giant network put into place. And that some exclusive NMs spawned by Scylds would be a good idea.

Quote:
However, we are planning on a larger scale for Evolith, so instead of just adjustments we thinking more along the lines of a total renewal.

New! Evoliths for the ammo slot! Instead of carrying around the little Evoliths in slots in weapons/armor, players will now be able to equip the big purple goose eggs on their equipment grid!


Quote:
yeah... they might want to do that. Of course, they are so tight-fisted with stat improvements that I am pretty skeptical that this will ever amount to anything.

Under Tanaka. The very reason it was broken was besides having to line up multiple things (for equipping, then again for effectiveness), they were far too stingy in the amounts given. I often used the 2-Hour recast timer as an example. Should have been -5/10/15/20 min or -4/8/12/16 min.


Quote:
Please, dear god no.

Dagger Weaponskill Skill Att + 3 Vs Birds = win?

Your wish will be granted. That Evolith will be a prize from Brenner. People'll be lining up to do that to get such a coveted purple petra.
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#38 Aug 09 2012 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
I always found it absurd that despite SE devs knowing we all have inventory problems, not only does SE never try to alleviate this by making more multipurpose gear, but they went ahead and added Evolith, which is another layer of situational gear.

I agree with this 110%.

Add to the list of things I hope for in the expansion: Removal of the need to carry 90 situational items or require blink-swapping 90% of the time I'm in combat.
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#39 Aug 10 2012 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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Yo, the evolith weapons make pretty nice looking town gear. They remain rare as hell.

I pretty much forgot they existed... now I wanna go make an offhand Concordia to wear around town tonight :)
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