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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#202 Jun 30 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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#203 Jun 30 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
To all the people who hack, cheat, exploit, a big F and U to you all. I really really hope SE bans you all and you never get to see FFXI ever again. I am really tired of these kinds of people that ruin great MMOs and other games.

If they were to ban everyone that ever broke the tos via hacks cheats and exploits of any sort (this would include unofficial windower), the world of vana'diel would be a very, very lonely place.


The windower hmmm... that is a grey area. Does it give you an advantage over other players? It depends on the plug-ins. To have the game simply windowed... I don't really see that as an exploit, but that is for SE to judge. I have never used it myself. 3rd party content is always hard to judge (I've been a GM before and TRUST me... those judgement calls are tough). Does the good outweigh the bad? That's the question. According to "rules" any third party program that alters, changes or reads data is bannable. But rules are seldom enforced to the letter and GMs tend to turn a blind eye to that which helps the community AS A WHOLE. Does this hack benefit the community as a whole? No. It's only for a select few. SE for whatever reason it is, decided that area to be based on luck, skill whatever. If not they would have not designed that way. It does NOT give you the right to cheat past their "rules" to get what you want. Once again, this is their game not yours. If you don't like a certain feature, complain to them. Post... whatever. Don't cheat to get what you think you deserve. Think of SE as the banker in monopoly. If he doesn't want to slip you $20 for landing on free parking... you have to have to accept it. You don't steal cash when his back is turned... has morality been lost in this day and age? I hope not but it just may be the sign of the times.

As for your comment about banning... I'd rather have a very lonely place of a tight knit friendly (non cheating) player base, then a huge server of *ss hats. Of course this would mean less money for SE and less money for content but meh, I am a consumer not a company and everyone is free to their own opinion.

A tad off topic wise, I don't know why but... the current FFXI community seems (to me at least) a lot more "unfriendly" then 5+ years ago. Call it nostalgia, or what-not... it just seems that way to me. Call me crazy, because I am. ;3

Edited, Jun 30th 2012 9:53pm by Prrsha
#205 Jun 30 2012 at 9:10 PM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:
Reiterpallasch wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
To all the people who hack, cheat, exploit, a big F and U to you all. I really really hope SE bans you all and you never get to see FFXI ever again. I am really tired of these kinds of people that ruin great MMOs and other games.

If they were to ban everyone that ever broke the tos via hacks cheats and exploits of any sort (this would include unofficial windower), the world of vana'diel would be a very, very lonely place.


The windower hmmm... that is a grey area. Does it give you an advantage over other players? It depends on the plug-ins. To have the game simply windowed... I don't really see that as an exploit, but that is for SE to judge. I have never used it myself. 3rd party content is always hard to judge (I've been a GM before and TRUST me... those judgement calls are tough). Does the good outweigh the bad? That's the question. According to "rules" any third party program that alters, changes or reads data is bannable. But rules are seldom enforced to the letter and GMs tend to turn a blind eye to that which helps the community AS A WHOLE. Does this hack benefit the community as a whole? No. It's only for a select few. SE for whatever reason it is, decided that area to be based on luck, skill whatever. If not they would have not designed that way. It does NOT give you the right to cheat past their "rules" to get what you want. Once again, this is their game not yours. If you don't like a certain feature, complain to them. Post... whatever. Don't cheat to get what you think you deserve. Think of SE as the banker in monopoly. If he doesn't want to slip you $20 for landing on free parking... you have to have to accept it. You don't steal cash when his back is turned... has morality been lost in this day and age? I hope not but it just may be the sign of the times.

As for your comment about banning... I'd rather have a very lonely place of a tight knit friendly (non cheating) player base, then a huge server of *ss hats. Of course this would mean less money for SE and less money for content but meh, I am a consumer not a company and everyone is free to their own opinion.

A tad off topic wise, I don't know why but... the current FFXI community seems (to me at least) a lot more "unfriendly" then 5+ years ago. Call it nostalgia, or what-not... it just seems that way to me. Call me crazy, because I am. ;3

Edited, Jun 30th 2012 9:53pm by Prrsha


Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


Exactly.... I couldn't have said it better. :3
#206 Jun 30 2012 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Except the rules of Basketball have changed due to abuse. Originally there was no shot clock, so scores would be in the mid teens by the end of the game because whichever team was leading would just hold and pass the ball for as long as possible. The game was changed because of the exploit, which is something SE isn't doing.

Horrible example. Try again.
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#207 Jul 01 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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The team that was losing should have just punched the guy holding the ball, right Raelix? Punching is totally against the rules and is blatant cheating, but that's acceptable when the rules aren't the way you thibk they should be, right?

#208 Jul 01 2012 at 1:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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CorncobWilly wrote:
The team that was losing should have just punched the guy holding the ball, right Raelix? Punching is totally against the rules and is blatant cheating, but that's acceptable when the rules aren't the way you thibk they should be, right?




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#209 Jul 01 2012 at 1:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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CorncobWilly wrote:
The team that was losing should have just punched the guy holding the ball, right Raelix? Punching is totally against the rules and is blatant cheating, but that's acceptable when the rules aren't the way you thibk they should be, right?

I find it acceptable awesome to punch an opposing teammate in the face if they're a robot, or computer simulation, and I would make sure everyone I knew knew about it, preferably catching it on video.
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#210 Jul 01 2012 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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And that's why people say it's bad content. If you are sufficiently skilled, you should be able to have 100% success rate.


And clearly most people aren't skilled enough.

Quote:
You do realize by applying the luck to the game play and having skill to increase luck in our favor is closest square has ever given us to the reward system you and the like have been asking for, for years?


You don't seem to understand. All of the "hardcore" players want content which they can beat and which no one else can beat. It's like this in every game.

Diablo III introduces a game mode which is designed to be ridiculously, unfairly, stupidly difficult... and people whine because they can't beat it.

Everyone thinks they're the Flying Spaghetti Monster's gift to gaming and that they should be able to stomp content which is designed to be incredibly hard to beat....

In other words, they don't want to fail, they want to see other people fail while they succeed so as to buff their own egos.

It's delicious, really. The same people who would mock you for not beating the content they beat throw an absolute hissy when they find some content they can't beat. Look at them, panties in a bunch, red arrowing through the tears every time someone points out that they're not entitled to a win just for showing up...

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Nuh uh! I'm da bestest! If I don't ALWAYS WIN, it's BROKEN, and I'll CHEAT to fix it!


tl;dr: Same cycle as always: Gamers whine about how easymode everything is/has become; Developers deliver hardmode designed to make even the best players fail; Players whine, cry, and cheat because the content is too hard.

For all the people who claim to want a hardcore, non easymode game, people sure do get butthurt when they actually find challenging content. All anyone really wants is an endless gear feed, and maybe enough arbitrary difficulty or gear requirements to let them feel better than the rabble.
#211 Jul 01 2012 at 3:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Based on how good the gear is and how you are guaranteed to get exactly what you want when you win (plus a chance at additional drops), the win rate should not be 100%. And as I posted earlier, it's very much NOT a 100% win rate. Only the most blatant hacks (which will get you suspended or worse) will get you close to 100%. Fillmode and lamp dats will get you to 25%-50% or so depending on your group. Higher % if you are the best of the best (not me). And if your group is inept, they too are not enough to punch a ticket to Floor 100.
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#212 Jul 01 2012 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread was better when it was about cats and dogs.

I have 2 simple points to make on the thread topic of cheating.

Firstly, there is no debate whether or not this is cheating - it is cheating by the definition of the word and by the rules of the people who make the game (SE). That is not in question.

What is apparently in question is the 'morality' of this cheating - whether it's acceptable or not to do which brings me to my second point.

If you want to know whether it's morally acceptable or not to cheat, you only have to look at the people in this thread who are defending cheating.

People like Raelix who spends most of his time on here calling people morons and idiots when they don't think the same way he does.

Or Viertel, someone nearly equally as charming.

Or the guy from BG - that well known arena of reasonable, civilised, intelligent discourse.

In other words, all the obnoxious message board stereotypes who think they are always right and everyone else is a moron and who can't bear it when they don't get what they want.

Where are the decent people supporting cheating? Why aren't the likes of Melphina, Tummie, Elmer or people like that on here passionately supporting cheating?

I'll take morality advice from the likes of Raelix the same day I take financial advice from Bernard Madoff, fashion advice from Lady Gaga and parenting advice from Josef Fritzl.
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#213 Jul 01 2012 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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#214 Jul 01 2012 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAmyri wrote:
tl;dr: Same cycle as always: Gamers whine about how easymode everything is/has become; Developers deliver hardmode designed to make even the best players fail; Players whine, cry, and cheat because the content is too hard.

For all the people who claim to want a hardcore, non easymode game, people sure do get butthurt when they actually find challenging content. All anyone really wants is an endless gear feed, and maybe enough arbitrary difficulty or gear requirements to let them feel better than the rabble.


This is getting so old. I am so sick of people calling this challenging content.

luck based event ≠ challenging content

Please explain to me the challenge in guessing the correct lamp order (Hint: there isn't one). either you use .dat swaps and get it or you don't and guess with a high probability of guessing wrong and instantly losing the run. Have you ever even done the event? Because anyone who says this either hasn't done the event or is just foolish.

Quote:
Diablo III introduces a game mode which is designed to be ridiculously, unfairly, stupidly difficult... and people whine because they can't beat it.


Even your Diablo 3 example doesn't fit. While Diablo 3's Inferno difficulty is insane it has nothing to do with a guessing game or random floor objectives and floor jumps.

I would really like to know if you have done this is event because it seems as though you haven't at all.
#215 Jul 01 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI was the genesis of my game design policy "Random is never fun."
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#216 Jul 01 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.
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#217 Jul 01 2012 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.



I personally think the opposite is truer. Monsters Developers have a direct control over, where as players they don't. It take a massive amount of time for them to test something enough to know every single way a player might use abilities. Especially in rpgs where tactics can be applied. I remember when I figured out a built a deck in Phantasy Star online episode 3 C.A.R.D. Revolution. It took me about a month to figure out how to make this deck nearly flawless. Only one rarely use defensive card could counter the deck.(something the player base never really realized) And a handful of weapon/monster cards that actually had the trait innately. When I finally took it to a public area and obliterated my opponent in a tournament in 2 days it was the most over used deck online. Just to give an example of when players do things they don't expect players to do or find interesting ways to use the abilities they are given. **** look at their happy mistake with ninja(Our happy their frustration). And PvP is such a different animal from PvE. **** just go into PvP and see how vastly different your abilities and skills are in potency and effectiveness. **** I remember landing a dark magic spell as white mage no problem in PvP where I have a better chance of breaking 500 damage with banish I if I tried to land that on a monster. Any who, it's much harder to control what players do so adjusting for a PvP situation in an RPG is much more difficult then having direct control over one of the elements, in my opinion.

Any who, I didn't realize Nyzul isle the only place in FFXI where we can have a satisfying experience. Guess cheaters are the only ones that feel satisfied in this game.

Edit: Also I agree this thread should go back to cats and dogsXD

Aristicats had cats that were the good guys!

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 1:42pm by Laxedrane
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#218 Jul 01 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselvesBold Text. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating.


This, big time. SE has had a stupid case of Killer Game Master

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster

And all their content is based around really poor design decisions
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies

Difficulty is constituted of fake difficulty vs real difficulty
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard


All the above only ends up encouraging / mandating min-maxing as the only viable method of progression / loot obtainment.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinMaxing

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 6:07pm by saevellakshmi

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 6:07pm by saevellakshmi
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#219 Jul 01 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I should have said instead of "This event is luck based" with the coin reference to "this event is EXCESSIVELIY luck based". Obviously it requires skill. It requires coordination and all that fun stuff. Luck is not the only factor. However, any event that is excessively luck based stops being fun. People are comparing this to chess, basketball, and whatever else. This is PvM. Not PvP. In a PvP game, any PvP game, each team (assuming it is 2) has a 50% chance of winning with the game being virtually ENTIRELY determined by who is more skilled. There is no luck in chess. No luck in basketball. These are head to head skill based contests and usually only have ONE aspect where luck comes into play. Flipping a coin to see who moves/gets the ball 1st. While it has been proven that the player going 1st has a minute (like less than 2%) advantage in some of these games, compare the impact of luck on the winner in a scenario like that vs NI.

Compare the impact of luck in ANY event to date to the new NI.

When you loose because a monster just kicks your ***, you regroup, restrategize, change jobs, gear up more, do SOMETHING to say "this is what i learned and next time we can overcome (insert reason you lost). When an 'ideal' group of players with absurd gear (FAAAAR exceeding anything most people will EVER get), use 3rd party voice chat to communicate more efficiently than possible in the game, and otherwise a superior setup in every way the game allows and then some (voice chat) and still just 'rolls the dice' the event is no longer fun. I did plenty of plane jane runs. Once you reach a certain point, you realize, there is no significant adjustments to be made and you just cleared floor 70 because you got 2-3 jumps and a kill all floor with 3-4 HNMs and WS restricted, you realize no amount of 'skill' will fix it. You dont leave the run saying "well do better next time guys!" you leave and say "I hope SE doesnt @#%^ us again next time".

When luck REGULARLY and REPEATEDLY kills an otherwise successful run, theres no fun in that. It makes you want to punch a bag of babys. I enjoy a challenge as much (arguably moreso based on my personality) as the next guy. There is no growth, or skill to be learned.Games like baseket ball dont have random meteors that crash into the game occasionally killing a team mate and ref just says "well guess you gotta keep going -1 player vs the other full team opponents". There are no completely random "@#%^ yous" in any world renowned competitive sport. EVERY sanctioned sport with large followings has rules to REDUCE the impact of luck to make it a true skill based competition between players. But they are playing PEOPLE. Not code.

How much fun would an HNM be that was basically a pushover, but had a 50% chance to use a move that was ZONE wide deathga. Cant be stunned. Cant be PDed. Cant do anything. It WILL kill you if it uses it period. There is nothing you can do to mitigate, or prevent it. ANd it just 'decides' if its going to use it. That is getting trolled. Thats not fun. Thats not a learning experience and for ***** sake it doesnt make the monster HARD or CHALLENGING or DIFFICULT. It makes it a CHEAP POS.Luck=/= difficulty or challenge. Please stop saying it. Also, please stop making these broad generalizations that all cheaters are bad evil @#%^s. I can rattle off a list of 'evil cheaters' that are the nicest, most helpful **** people in the world. I can also list off a bunch of @#%^ing pricks that play on PS2. Protip: Gross generalizations about a group of people based on limited sample/information and/or biased is friggin ignorant.
Quote:

In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.


Dear god this person gets it!

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 2:06pm by Banalaty
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#220 Jul 01 2012 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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When luck REGULARLY and REPEATEDLY kills an otherwise successful run, theres no fun in that. It makes you want to punch a bag of babys. I enjoy a challenge as much (arguably moreso based on my personality) as the next guy. There is no growth, or skill to be learned.Games like baseket ball dont have random meteors that crash into the game occasionally killing a team mate and ref just says "well guess you gotta keep going -1 player vs the other full team opponents". There are no completely random "@#%^ yous" in any world renowned competitive sport. EVERY sanctioned sport with large followings has rules to REDUCE the impact of luck to make it a true skill based competition between players. But they are playing PEOPLE. Not code.


That just gave me an idea..

During the game, on the side lines have someone roll some dice every quarter. Based on the results of the roll, one side or the other suffers from a range of penalties or bonus's. Can do everything from removing a player, reducing all of your goals to 1pt each, doubling your teams goals, reducing your shot clock or doubling it. Could hand out some free throws or bonus points.

How would people enjoy playing that game...

After all, suck less right.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#221 Jul 01 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
During the game, on the side lines have someone roll some dice every quarter. Based on the results of the roll, one side or the other suffers from a range of penalties or bonus's. Can do everything from removing a player, reducing all of your goals to 1pt each, doubling your teams goals, reducing your shot clock or doubling it. Could hand out some free throws or bonus points.


You just described Mario Party.

Erecia wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.
I agree with everything you said.

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 9:04am by detlef
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#222 Jul 01 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game.

Every single basketball player breaks the rules of the game every game. For violating the rules, there are consequences and penalties. There are even cases where teams change their strategy to intentionally and obviously break the rules to take advantage of the penalties imposed.

If Basketball players were judged the same way FFXI were being judged in this thread, the guy who was wearing shorts that were too long according to the NBA, the guy who was caught traveling, and the guy who grabbed an opponent and body slammed him down to the hardwood floor would all be labelled as cheaters. Every single NBA player would need to be stripped of their championships and individual honors, because the game was obviously too hard for them to win cleanly.
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#223 Jul 01 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
This is one of those arguments where really no one's opinion will be changed, and I argue that the entire discussion itself is a pointless one.

There are people that cheat and people that don't. The ones that do will continue to do so even if they are ridiculed in the process by their fellow players, because they like the advantage that it gives them in completing what they're using those cheats for (flee hacks, claim bots, etc). They feel that the current system is unfair for one reason or another, and they aren't opposed to using "illegal" methods to get their way. Only one of two things can happen that will stop these kinds of players from using those cheats. 1) They lose interest in the event, be it because new gear has come out that makes those previously sought out items obsolete, or they've obtained all the items from there, and they don't have any drive to continue, or 2) Direct intervention by Square Enix that either makes it impossible for these tools to be used or disciplinary action is taken on those individuals (though even that sometimes isn't enough).

Then there are those players that are adamant against using cheats. Be it morality or just because they prefer the event as it's laid out before them, they won't cheat, nor do they condone the actions of those that do.

There really isn't a gray area with this situation, there will be people will use it and berate those that won't for being cowards and there will be those who won't use it and berate those that will for being spoiled. It's better to just accept that there are going to be those that have those differing opinions, no matter what.
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#224 Jul 01 2012 at 5:47 PM Rating: Default
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Erecia wrote:
And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.


So, then where do we draw the line at where cheating is acceptable and when it is not? Why is it ok here and not ok where someone else might see an unfair system in place in their opinion? Who decides what constitutes unfair or even what is cheating and what isn't? SE? The playerbase as a whole? The most active and vocal members of the forums? There's a lot of aspects of the game I think are inadequate and unfair, and have gear I'd like within them. Would it be ok if I cheated my way through any and all of those as long as I'm comfortable with doing so?
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#225 Jul 01 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
Erecia wrote:
And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.

So, then where do we draw the line at where cheating is acceptable and when it is not?

SE decides that. If you think SE simply doesn't know about this, then report it. SE will decide whether its worth acting on or not.

Personally, I agree with those who have made the distinction in this thread already about cheats that directly impact other players vs cheats that don't. To me, price fixing practices on the AH -- which don't violate the ToS or require the use of 3rd party tools -- are a far worse "cheat" than players using various tools in an instanced environment like Nyzul.

At best, you can argue that players who cheat to get those rewards devalue the accomplishment of players that got the same rewards without using those cheats. If there was some kind of sanctioned system for buying and selling these rewards for real money, I would have a different stance on this issue.
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#226 Jul 01 2012 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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What's with all the sports analogies? Athletes bend or break the rules all the time. Soccer players flop or pretend they didn't foul They pretend the ball didn't hit their hand. They pretend to be injured to be carted off the field, then hop off the gurney as and rejoin play. Basketball players intentionally foul, palm the basketball, travel, and flop. Baseball players pretend to get hit be the ball, doctor the baseball with pine tar and spit, and cork their bats. Football players hold on every single play, try to injure each other in the pile. Sometimes they intentionally injure each other. It ain't cheating if you don't get caught is a motto very deeply ingrained in society.

I think once you start using windower you're technically cheating. From there on out, it's just a matter of degree and for a lot of people it's just a matter of what you can do without being caught. Use windower? Then you can't really criticize others unless you can argue that they directly affect your gameplay.

Let's look at Vlorsutes. I have quite a great deal of respect for him because he has to tiptoe the line between endgame FFXIer, Alla admin, and frequent BG poster. He has quite a bit of Nyzul gear. I can guarantee that regardless of what his group did, he's proud of his gear, feels he earned it, and had a blast doing it.
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