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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#402 Jul 22 2012 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh wrote:
First of all the proper word is "envy", and the "u jelly?" attitude is retarded, I'm not "jelly" about anything, I have perfectly good gear already, once again why would I envy people who cheat? I could cheat if I wanted to. It's not hard. But it goes against my morals, standards, and everything I believe in. Feel free to do it yourself, but your "accomplishments" are now meaningless. Fact. It has nothing to do with jealousy, it's a simple fact that cheaters don't deserve what they have, thus nothing they have or do matters and their reputation should be destroyed, not fawned over.


Are you seriously correcting 'jealous' w/ 'envy' when they are complete synonyms!?

Understood. You are not being jealous. You are being sanctimonious and self-righteous.

Jealousy was the most reasonable motive I could have guessed.

Its impossible to take you seriously at this point.



And Wow @ Myri
Don't let things like information or fact get in the way of your judgments.
instead of trying to reassess any judgement w/ information, you insist more strongly that your imagined psych-profile of me is correct.
as far as "cheapening" the accomplishment... You really see this as something to brag about huh? Are you different from Zelduh in your motivation? yours is based off gear-envy?

I don't see beating Nyzul 2.0 as an "accomplishment" I see it as a game to entertain me and my friends and the gear as a toy to play with. I wouldn't feel a particular sense of accomplishment for finishing a game of monopoly.. I just have fun playing w/ friends. Do I have to apply your view of FFXI so as to protect your sense of accomplishment from being cheapened? If so, I'm not here to protect your feelings.

neither of you have any credibility based on recent posts.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:54am by Xilk
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#403 Jul 22 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
Camiie wrote:
I should never have gotten involved in this thread. I think this is one of those situations where it's better to just sit back and watch people hang themselves with their own arrogance. Sorry it took me so long to figure that out. Carry on people. Carry on.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:41am by Camiie


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#404 Jul 22 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure if I want to laugh or cry at ItsAMyri's ultra-harsh moralism black-and-white cheater stance at this point. I only used the basic Windower functions - things like being able to see TP and Windower macros - but it got to the point where I didn't care if other people were cheating, because I'd rather my friends cheat and still play than quit the game because the game was just so much pointless ******** that it forced them out. Way back when, when goals seemed more fair and attainable, cheating was frowned upon heavily. But with NNI and Logwatch and Legion and stuff, it's hard to shake the feeling the devs are just ******* with us, so getting banned almost seems like a merciful reminder to get out of here and get on with the rest of your life.
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#405 Jul 22 2012 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:

I'm not really all that upset about an individual act of cheating. Like someone else said, it happened even back in the day. I remember camping Nidhogg and seeing it spawn purple, claimed before my screen even loaded it by a level 5 galka named Dragonsaerysdg who immediately disconnected after the claim.

What upsets me is the change in the communities attitude. Yeah, people cheated back in the day, but if I came to an FFXI forum and talked about removing the darters and running a bot I'd be tarred and feathered. Now, it's more controversial to speak out against cheating than it is to cheat. It's gone from taboo to second nature.


Now, by your own theory, try to think outside your own perspective. Why do you think the community changed their attitude?


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#406 Jul 22 2012 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Xilk wrote:

Are you seriously correcting 'jealous' w/ 'envy' when they are complete synonyms!?

No, they aren't. Envy is "I desire what they have", Jealousy is "I have EARNED what they have, and they have NOT!" (or they have earned it less so). Envy is when you want your buddy's new HDTV. Jealous is when you line up all day for a sale on TVs and somebody who didn't even line up gets the last one because they're buddies with the manager. (Of course the feeling of deserving something more doesn't have to be objectively true, all that matters is what YOU feel you deserve and others do not). So you can see, most of the time people should be using envious, not jealous.

Not here though, jealousy fits here better than envy does ;) Envy is "Man I want that Nyzul gear, too", Jealousy is "I deserve it and the cheaters do not!". Indignation is "The cheaters don't deserve it". So, yeah, jealous works better, but indignant works best. It's hard for some people to believe, but some people are offended by injustice even if it didn't happen directly to them.
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#407 Jul 22 2012 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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What you wrote:

Dantedmc wrote:

- Crappy Jumps

- Huge Kill All floors: even with powder boots this is obviously a huge time waster.

- Order Lamps: Either you use .dats and get it right or guess and have a high probability of ruining the run.

- Ja Restricted: No precharged stratagems for the sch, no 2hr etc. which can be very useful on a low time floor 100 boss.

- WS restricted: Have fun on that kill all floor / NM floor when you can't even WS. At best you'll have a blu to help and at worst everyone will just be swinging. This can even happen on Floor 100.

- Avoid Discovery by gears: Yes you can Voke or RA them, but they may literally be placed right next to each other in a small room that you must pass. So either you are wasting time trying to get them to move in a favorable position and/or you try to RA / Voke them asap risking aggro and have the chance of losing 1min on your short 30min run timer.

- White Magic restricted on a Kill all / NM / Boss Floor: Now your are down to embrava, regen, temps, and possibly a blu to keep your party alive and if your sch had previously used embrava, they won't be recasting it this floor.

There are probably many more that I'm missing, but I think you get the point. You can have all the best gear, the best teamwork, the right meds etc. and nzyul will still ***** you. People are upset that no matter how you prepare your success heavily depends on the RNG.


What you said:
IT'S TOO HARD, I HAVE SAND IN MY JAINIEE
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#408 Jul 22 2012 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Erecia wrote:
because I'd rather my friends cheat and still play than quit the game because the game was just so much pointless bullsh*t that it forced them out.



What, if I may ask, was forcing them to play? Before they were forced out, that is.
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#409 Jul 22 2012 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
What you wrote:

Dantedmc wrote:

- Crappy Jumps

- Huge Kill All floors: even with powder boots this is obviously a huge time waster.

- Order Lamps: Either you use .dats and get it right or guess and have a high probability of ruining the run.

- Ja Restricted: No precharged stratagems for the sch, no 2hr etc. which can be very useful on a low time floor 100 boss.

- WS restricted: Have fun on that kill all floor / NM floor when you can't even WS. At best you'll have a blu to help and at worst everyone will just be swinging. This can even happen on Floor 100.

- Avoid Discovery by gears: Yes you can Voke or RA them, but they may literally be placed right next to each other in a small room that you must pass. So either you are wasting time trying to get them to move in a favorable position and/or you try to RA / Voke them asap risking aggro and have the chance of losing 1min on your short 30min run timer.

- White Magic restricted on a Kill all / NM / Boss Floor: Now your are down to embrava, regen, temps, and possibly a blu to keep your party alive and if your sch had previously used embrava, they won't be recasting it this floor.

There are probably many more that I'm missing, but I think you get the point. You can have all the best gear, the best teamwork, the right meds etc. and nzyul will still ***** you. People are upset that no matter how you prepare your success heavily depends on the RNG.


What you said:
IT'S TOO HARD, I HAVE SAND IN MY JAINIEE


Would you care to tell me whats hard about Ordered Lamps? Either you use .dats and get it right or guess and most likely don't in a reasonable amount of time. What is the difficulty in randomly generated jumps? Either you get good jumps or you don't. I thought I may it pretty clear that the event focuses much more on luck than skill. Sounds like you haven't done any NNI either if you can't seem to realize this.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 12:55pm by Dantedmc
#410 Jul 22 2012 at 11:07 AM Rating: Default
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Dantedmc wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
What you wrote:

Dantedmc wrote:

- Crappy Jumps

- Huge Kill All floors: even with powder boots this is obviously a huge time waster.

- Order Lamps: Either you use .dats and get it right or guess and have a high probability of ruining the run.

- Ja Restricted: No precharged stratagems for the sch, no 2hr etc. which can be very useful on a low time floor 100 boss.

- WS restricted: Have fun on that kill all floor / NM floor when you can't even WS. At best you'll have a blu to help and at worst everyone will just be swinging. This can even happen on Floor 100.

- Avoid Discovery by gears: Yes you can Voke or RA them, but they may literally be placed right next to each other in a small room that you must pass. So either you are wasting time trying to get them to move in a favorable position and/or you try to RA / Voke them asap risking aggro and have the chance of losing 1min on your short 30min run timer.

- White Magic restricted on a Kill all / NM / Boss Floor: Now your are down to embrava, regen, temps, and possibly a blu to keep your party alive and if your sch had previously used embrava, they won't be recasting it this floor.

There are probably many more that I'm missing, but I think you get the point. You can have all the best gear, the best teamwork, the right meds etc. and nzyul will still ***** you. People are upset that no matter how you prepare your success heavily depends on the RNG.


What you said:
IT'S TOO HARD, I HAVE SAND IN MY JAINIEE


Would you care to tell me whats hard about Ordered Lamps? Either you use .dats and get it right or guess and most likely don't in a reasonable amount of time. What is the difficulty in randomly generated jumps? Either you get good jumps or you don't. I thought I may it pretty clear that the event focuses much more on luck than skill. Sounds like you haven't done any NNI either if you can't seem to realize this.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 12:55pm by Dantedmc



Had you read the thread, you would know that I have done NNI, and as for which part applies to your questions, it would be the sand in the ****** part, you big cry baby. Smiley: cry
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#411 Jul 22 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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spiritreaverdiablos the Hand wrote:
Camiie wrote:
I should never have gotten involved in this thread. I think this is one of those situations where it's better to just sit back and watch people hang themselves with their own arrogance. Sorry it took me so long to figure that out. Carry on people. Carry on.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:41am by Camiie


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#412 Jul 22 2012 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
Feel free to do it yourself, but your "accomplishments" are now meaningless.

Video game "accomplishments" had meaning to begin with?
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#413 Jul 22 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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... brb, redoing my resume. In other news, now it makes more sense why "was kind of okay at FFXI" isn't impressing recruiters.
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#414 Jul 22 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:

What you wrote:
Had you read the thread, you would know that I have done NNI, and as for which part applies to your questions, it would be the sand in the ****** part, you big cry baby. Smiley: cry


What you said:
I've actually participated in the content but I can't digest facts when others present them.





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#415 Jul 22 2012 at 3:35 PM Rating: Default
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ive seen this in other games, but the explosion in the gear was helped by the trade system, IDK if this set you speak of is tradeable but if it is, that would only add to the people grinding it to sell it hence more and more of it would explode into the game. Im still pretty new to the game and took a massive 4 year brake because i could not find a group or solo, im back because i heard that changed and it seems indeed it did! I just hope they address this before it damages the trade system or causes enough rage to make others quit.
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#416 Jul 22 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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VERY good point! I completely agree with Kodo!

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 5:44pm by EQOAnostalgia
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#417 Jul 22 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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I think that's a legitimate reason for a sock check.
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#418 Jul 22 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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EQOAnostalgia wrote:
ive seen this in other games, but the explosion in the gear was helped by the trade system, IDK if this set you speak of is tradeable but if it is, that would only add to the people grinding it to sell it hence more and more of it would explode into the game.

It's not tradeable.
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#419 Jul 22 2012 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
EQOAnostalgia wrote:
ive seen this in other games, but the explosion in the gear was helped by the trade system, IDK if this set you speak of is tradeable but if it is, that would only add to the people grinding it to sell it hence more and more of it would explode into the game.

It's not tradeable.


People are using cheats to merc the content though. How do people feel about that? Same difference?
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#420 Jul 22 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Erecia wrote:
... brb, redoing my resume. In other news, now it makes more sense why "was kind of okay at FFXI" isn't impressing recruiters.


What... you telling me they didn't ask you about your FFXI achievements during your interview? Here I thought it was paramount to professional growth.
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#421 Jul 22 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Erecia wrote:
... brb, redoing my resume. In other news, now it makes more sense why "was kind of okay at FFXI" isn't impressing recruiters.


What... you telling me they didn't ask you about your FFXI achievements during your interview? Here I thought it was paramount to professional growth.

Well, they did, but those often went poorly...

"So, did you have a relic?"
"I wrote a strategy guide to easily the most difficult missions in the game and became a widely-accepted authority on them, as well as a minor celebrity on my server."
"... so, no to the relic, then."
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#422 Jul 22 2012 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Explains why Yahoo! is on its 6th CEO in 4 years.
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#423 Jul 22 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
svlyons wrote:
EQOAnostalgia wrote:
ive seen this in other games, but the explosion in the gear was helped by the trade system, IDK if this set you speak of is tradeable but if it is, that would only add to the people grinding it to sell it hence more and more of it would explode into the game.

It's not tradeable.

People are using cheats to merc the content though. How do people feel about that? Same difference?

So mercs who are using cheats are cutting into the business of mercs who aren't using cheats. How do I feel about that? I have a bigger problem with the mercing than I have with the cheats which, as others have pointed out, don't have a direct impact on other players. But since this is just mercing stuff in a quasi-instanced environment, I have less of a problem with it than I would in situations like mercing Loki's Kaftan.

Having said that, being able to merc something doesn't make it equivalent to an item than can be traded and sold after it is obtained. Once you obtain a piece of Ex gear, it has no gil value. At best, you can argue it has monetary value, since you can sell your account and the relative scarcity of floor 100 gear has an impact on your account's value. But I can't see someone condemning Neo Nyzul cheating while condoning the buying and selling of accounts.
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#424 Jul 22 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure if I want to laugh or cry at ItsAMyri's ultra-harsh moralism black-and-white cheater stance at this point


You either knowingly do harm, or you do not, there is no in between. There are times in life when a decision has no 'right' answer, and in which someone will be hurt regardless of what you do.

This is not one of them. It's a video game. Are you telling me that the lure of a piece of pixel gear is so strong that it simply overrides your sense of morality?

Cheating is not harmless. SE will fix this, and they will do so in a way that inconveniences everyone because of a few people. Look at all the arbitrary restrictions to fishing thanks to fishbots. Look at all the people who got banned simply for gardening thanks to people who ran 15 gardening mules to sell the gil. They didn't 'hurt' anyone, they didnt monopolize any NMs, and they didn't crash the economy... but they got innocent people banned and caused tedious, arbitrary restrictions that we all now have to deal with.

Quote:
I had hoped that SE would be smart enough to make the event not completely luck based, but I was wrong. I had also hoped that they would add progression like Old NI where no matter what you were going up. In NNI the best you have 25 floor 80 wins for 1 piece of 100 floor gear which is just foolish.


How is this any different at all from making it so that you start on floor 95 every time, but the droprate is 0.1% a la voidwatch? All content is luck based. Most of the time, the content is easy to consistently win and the luck is in the droprate. In NNI, you fight luck to determine whether you win or lose, but if you win you get your prize.

Seriously: 100 successful runs in a row before you finally get the drop, or 99 failed runs before you finally win and get the drop... what's the difference?*

Quote:
Way back when, when goals seemed more fair and attainable, cheating was frowned upon heavily


You mean like when you weren't even allowed to do endgame content without a bot (required to claim NMs), and when your 'ultimate' weapon took an entire linkshell over a year to make? FFXI is more accessible than ever. Did you even play back then?

Quote:
Now, by your own theory, try to think outside your own perspective. Why do you think the community changed their attitude?


It aged. Adolescents and young adults do not anticipate rewards in the same way. Much of the community started out in the high school range, and now we're in college, grad school, or the working world... and we value our time more.

Further, Abyssea has given us 2~ years of content which is accessible to everyone. The notion that some content might be inaccessible, too hard, or too time consuming for the reward involved is unacceptable to people who feel entitled to the items they crave.

Back in the day, if you couldn't get a relic because you didn't want to run a dynamis linkshell or sponsor runs, you just didn't get a relic and that was OK. To the modern FFXI player, this would imply that the game was broken enough that cheating is required to fix it.

*Aside from the fact that people can and will cheat to get it done faster, while they can't cheat a bad droprate.

P.S.: No one is going to ask about whether or not you won the regional soccer championship at a job interview, either, but you'd still be upset if the other team was cheating.
#425 Jul 22 2012 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
This is not one of them. It's a video game. Are you telling me that the lure of a piece of pixel gear is so strong that it simply overrides your sense of morality?

I'm not telling you that. I may be telling you the very opposite of that. I'm telling you that the stakes are so low here that morality functionally drops out of the equation. It's, as you say, a video game. If people aren't having fun with the rules, them modifying them in ways that, really, don't affect me as another player in any way is not an immoral decision at all. Botting kings hurt me cuz I couldn't fight kings, but people getting NNI gear doesn't hurt me at all. ****, it might help me, since that's people that I could go on runs with.
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#426 Jul 22 2012 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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SE will fix this, and they will do so in a way that inconveniences everyone because of a few people.


Because there are so many people who are doing this event totally legit and winning right now, right? It's sure going to suck for all those massive amounts of players.

Quote:
Seriously: 100 successful runs in a row before you finally get the drop, or 99 failed runs before you finally win and get the drop... what's the difference?*


There is a huge difference, but if you're not able to see the difference now it's unlikely you will be convinced that there is one.

Hint: the difference is (obviously) not with the amount of drops you get. It's more of a morale issue.
#427 Jul 22 2012 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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One is 'Sorry, not this time', the other is a slap in the face to the tune of 'Sorry, you're not good enough.'

When the best players in the game are getting the latter response, something is gonna snap.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 7:51pm by Raelix
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#428 Jul 22 2012 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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@Fyn

You're perfectly OK with doing the same task, over and over, forever, with no reward in sight and no sense of progress towards that reward... but crushed by the fact that you lost and have to try again?

Personally, I'm more turned off by a voidwatch item with a 0.5% droprate. I feel much more optimistic about earning NNI gear than I do about getting a Kraken club from the BCNM, even though I can win the BCNM 100% of the time.

@Rae

I thought it had nothing to do with how good you are? Didn't you people spend pages arguing that point?

I assume you count yourself among the best. Do you really want an endless string of content you always beat?

@Ericia

I'd like to hear you sing the same tune once you get banned simply for going on a run with someone who cheated. Or once SE just finds a way to kill .dat mods and windower, even for people who don't cheat, inconveniencing literally everyone in the process.

Try thinking beyond direct impacts. Someone doesn't have to be punching you in the face to hurt you.
#429 Jul 22 2012 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
I'd like to hear you sing the same tune once you get banned simply for going on a run with someone who cheated.

I would be ok with that. Maybe get some free time for other projects and hobbies.
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#430 Jul 22 2012 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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You're perfectly OK with doing the same task, over and over, forever, with no reward in sight and no sense of progress towards that reward... but crushed by the fact that you lost and have to try again?


Most people would rather have to deal with low drop rates than a low chance to even get a shot at the drop in the first place. The former is a lot less demoralizing than the latter. People are used to potentially low drop rates in MMOs; they're not necessarily used to doing everything "right" that you possibly can and still failing anyway.

Quote:
Personally, I'm more turned off by a voidwatch item with a 0.5% droprate. I feel much more optimistic about earning NNI gear than I do about getting a Kraken club from the BCNM, even though I can win the BCNM 100% of the time.


That's because seals run out eventually; rather quickly in fact, considering that it's 60 beastmen seals per pop and that most higher level mobs can't even drop them anymore. If everyone had unlimited seals, you can bet that there'd be a lot more people spamming that BC, and that the club would probably devalue over time eventually.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 12:08am by Fynlar
#431 Jul 22 2012 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
@Ericia

I'd like to hear you sing the same tune once you get banned simply for going on a run with someone who cheated. Or once SE just finds a way to kill .dat mods and windower, even for people who don't cheat, inconveniencing literally everyone in the process.

Try thinking beyond direct impacts. Someone doesn't have to be punching you in the face to hurt you.

Relax, relax. This was all hypothetical in my case. I quit almost a year ago now - SE drove my friends out the door long before me, and I eventually found myself wondering what I was doing here. So, yeah, they could have banned me any time in the last few months I played, and it would have been net result same - I move on.
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#432 Jul 22 2012 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Doing everything right and failing anyway is life. Last night I was fighting an NM and, despite capped accuracy, missed a crucial Sudden Lunge and died. Was that a license to load clipper and set all my cooldowns to 0 to avoid that fluke of a death? It certainly wouldn't hurt anyone.

I'd rather be using a level 99 Mythic weapon than my Empyrean too, but you won't see me duping alexandrite or cheating my way through the prereqs, either.

If you do not like content, you can either ask SE to change it or choose not to do it. I didn't like dynamis back in the day, yet I didn't pay a bunch of RMT to go farm my gear for me, though, even if it wouldn't have hurt anyone.

When did cheating become the first option? What is stopping you from simply not doing NNI if you hate it so much that you must cheat?

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 12:29am by ItsAMyri
#433 Jul 22 2012 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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#434 Jul 22 2012 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Doing everything right and failing anyway is life. Last night I was fighting an NM and, despite capped accuracy, missed a crucial Sudden Lunge and died.


That's why you use a casted Stun if you need the best possible accuracy on it (assuming you're using a job with innate dark magic skill, not something like WHM/BLM)

Potential misses from the physical stun spells is the tradeoff BLU makes for being able to cast them so frequently. If you absolutely, positively need a stun to not miss, using BLU for it is not doing it right. Same for Violent Flourish from DNC.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 1:14am by Fynlar
#435 Jul 22 2012 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not every day in dynamis that a monk NM is sitting directly on top of a time extension (missed stun during hundred fists; game over in roughly 3 seconds). It's every bit as much a fluke as rolling a 2-floor progression.

But, basically, what you're saying is that you would not support me using programs to overcome the limitations of the content I am doing? Even if they don't hurt anyone? (No player is harmed by me having 0sec cooldowns.)

So we're clear: What is your acceptable criteria for cheating other than 'Fynlar can't beat it the honest way'?
#436 Jul 22 2012 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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So we're clear: What is your acceptable criteria for cheating other than 'Fynlar can't beat it the honest way'?


*I* don't cheat Nyzul, I'm just the rune SCH. If the other people in the group insist on using cheats, I just don't care anymore. I've teamed up with people who have ran cheats in the background probably *countless* other times in the past, probably mostly without even realizing it, so why should I let it bother me anymore, really? I choose to not use all that fleehack/clipper nonsense and that's all I really have control of.

The only alternatve choices are "find a super-competent group of 5 other people willing to do clean runs, STILL end up losing most of the time, and having them give up before long" or "don't do HQ Nyzul at all" and I'm not satisfied with either of those choices.

I've pretty much made my stance/reasoning on all of this way earlier in the thread and don't really feel like rehashing it all yet again. Even though I pretty much just did... shut up

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 2:02am by Fynlar
#437 Jul 23 2012 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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Xilk wrote:

I don't see beating Nyzul 2.0 as an "accomplishment" I see it as a game to entertain me and my friends and the gear as a toy to play with. I wouldn't feel a particular sense of accomplishment for finishing a game of monopoly.. I just have fun playing w/ friends. Do I have to apply your view of FFXI so as to protect your sense of accomplishment from being cheapened? If so, I'm not here to protect your feelings.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:54am by Xilk


So when you play monopoly with friends, do you just move to whatever space you feel like because the dice are too random? And do you lift money/property from the banker because you need to rely on luck to get property you want or for friends to pay rent on land you own?
#438 Jul 23 2012 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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xantav wrote:
Xilk wrote:

I don't see beating Nyzul 2.0 as an "accomplishment" I see it as a game to entertain me and my friends and the gear as a toy to play with. I wouldn't feel a particular sense of accomplishment for finishing a game of monopoly.. I just have fun playing w/ friends. Do I have to apply your view of FFXI so as to protect your sense of accomplishment from being cheapened? If so, I'm not here to protect your feelings.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:54am by Xilk


So when you play monopoly with friends, do you just move to whatever space you feel like because the dice are too random? And do you lift money/property from the banker because you need to rely on luck to get property you want or for friends to pay rent on land you own?
It's more like if you make an agreement with your friends to start with $2000 instead of $1500. Or if you decide that all the money in the middle of the board goes to a person who lands on free parking. Those aren't written in the rules but they might make the game more fun.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:52pm by detlef
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#440 Jul 23 2012 at 2:54 AM Rating: Default
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This argument will go on forever. The only purpose it serves is to show SE who is cheating and who is not, so they can get banned... really... the people who are admitting to cheating are just asking for the STF to crack down on them. The more they complain, the bigger spectacle it makes and the more attention it grabs by them. To the cheaters who made this possible, thanks. You shot yourself in the foot.

At the end of the day. FFXI is made and owned by SE. The game is their intellectual property. If you **** all over it, they are going to remove you from it. No one likes people ******* on their art. If you created games, I am sure you'd feel the same way if someone did the same to yours. If you don't like SE's game, give them suggestions, don't cheat. You hurt not only yourself but the people you associate yourself with. Also, you take away from development time for NEW content when staff have to ban people and patch old stuff just to keep you from cheating. SE doesn't want you ******* on their art. Get it through your head. If you don't like their rules, maybe this game is not for you. Ever consider that?

For those who think SE won't ban... look at history. Once their announcement (during the salvage debacle), it took a few months for them to sift through data then all of a sudden... poof. Mass bans. You have already dug your own grave, it's really easy for them to see you have cheated. I just worry about the legit players who played in tainted parties.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 5:08am by Prrsha
#441 Jul 23 2012 at 3:13 AM Rating: Excellent
As I mentioned awhile ago, there's always going to be the two sides to this argument, those that will use any means necessary to give themselves an "advantage" and those that won't, and though the actual tools to gain those "advantages" or the situations they're used in may have changed over the years, the reasoning for both sides of the debate have always been the same. Those that use the cheats feel that the current system is flawed or that they just want to get what they want before anyone else does. They in turn feel that those that don't use cheats only do so because they're "self righteous" or have a "holier than thou" attitude and are content with being "gimp". Those that don't use the cheats in turn feel that the system is fine as it is, don't want to rush to get something, and feel that those that do use cheats have no moral compass and have no justification for what they do, because in the end it's just pixels.

It's one of those situations where neither side is going to budge in their opinions of such matters, so the best thing to do is just accept those differences and move on.
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#442 Jul 23 2012 at 3:38 AM Rating: Default
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Vlorsutes wrote:
It's one of those situations where neither side is going to budge in their opinions of such matters, so the best thing to do is just accept those differences and move on.


Agreed...

SE's job is to sort out things like this. When they do, there will be an end to this debate. Until then people will have their own opinion, but it really doesn't matter. I doubt SE will care about excuses or justifications.
#443 Jul 23 2012 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
I believe everyone has already agreed that the success rate should not be 100% for even the best groups.

I don't agree with that. Maybe I'm in the minority on that point. I'm also not defining "success" as "getting drops".
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#444 Jul 23 2012 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
xypin wrote:
I believe everyone has already agreed that the success rate should not be 100% for even the best groups.

I don't agree with that. Maybe I'm in the minority on that point. I'm also not defining "success" as "getting drops".


They should have just made it like original Nyzul, but then I guess the best gear we'd be able to get from it would be sidegrades to AF3+1. There's really no way to win with this dev team. I just hope the future yields something better for us with the change in producers.
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#445 Jul 23 2012 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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The obvious difference between monopoly and FFXI is that monopoly is basically a competitive game. FFXI is not. Also, the 'cheats' in question here are interface enhancements. They bring greater efficiency to the interface and more information available to the player. The player still needs to be able to utilize that information effectively.

The comparisons being made by the addle-minded haters are completely asinine. "Cheating past the pre-reqs for a mythic" "making unwanted monsters disappear" You have no clue what you are talking about.

Do you think someone is playing on a hacked server? IF someone is, you definitely wouldn't know anything about it.

At first I thought i would try to understand where the disagreement was coming from, but the close-minded frothing at the mouth is not worthy of any respect. Myri is the most hypocritical because he/she has admitted to violating the same EULA w/ dat mods which are in some way more pure than other dat mods. Guess what, in terms of whether its cheating or not it is IDENTICAL because it is defined in the EULA. IT doesn't matter what the purpose is, modifying the program in any way or using 3rd party applications no matter what the intent breaks the EULA.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 9:35am by Xilk
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#446 Jul 23 2012 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Xilk wrote:
the 'cheats' in question here are interface enhancements.


I really don't care 2 rats on the whole subject, but this arguement bothers me. Me changing my map .dats to display NM pop areas and chests/coffers or my Refresh icon so I don't confuse it with the MP Boost isn't the same as changing the Lamp .dats to Number 1~5.

The first is an interface enhancement, the maps actually have useful information and the icon now makes sense. The second is defeating a programmed element of the game. The lamp floors are designed to frustrate you, they were the first time around and more so in this version of the event. I didn't like lamp floors before, and I sure the **** don't like them now but that doesn't mean I have the right to change them to suit my purposes. The whole event is a garbage design.

I think that's what the otherside is arguing. Either that or I'm talking out of my *** again.

It might be my ***.

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#447 Jul 23 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Prrsha wrote:

At the end of the day. FFXI is made and owned by SE. The game is their intellectual property. If you **** all over it, they are going to remove you from it. No one likes people ******* on their art. If you created games, I am sure you'd feel the same way if someone did the same to yours. If you don't like SE's game, give them suggestions, don't cheat. You hurt not only yourself but the people you associate yourself with. Also, you take away from development time for NEW content when staff have to ban people and patch old stuff just to keep you from cheating. SE doesn't want you ******* on their art. Get it through your head. If you don't like their rules, maybe this game is not for you. Ever consider that?


L o l?

Hundreds of pages of thousands of posts across multiple fan based forums including the official forum (albeit probably the worst representation of majority opinion in FFXI) have done exactly what you suggest people do.

Your strawman that people modding the game to get around poorly designed content takes away from development time for NEW content is a logical fallacy. Poorly designed content that is addressed because the developer is forced to focus on their poorly designed content is never a bad thing, even it when it takes time away from NEW content (which might have been poorly designed as well.)


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#448 Jul 23 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The other scenario is they'll go the same route as salvage.once they find a way to prove people are doing this, (Aka more then ok we know it;s going on) Suspend and ban people as they see fit, Then they'll look at the un-tainted data and adjust it appropriately. Either way by cheating or simply accepting other people cheat instead of straight out boycotting the event, You are causing a mountain of bad data and SE won't touch nyzul to make it easier until the gear is irrelevant or a side grade.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 9:13am by Laxedrane


That's it right there, as some one who works in IT (as I have said and even argued over the years). We recently found another little lad who came in with his bypass proxy .exe and gave it to his friends. Some just wanted to access games (innocent really) others though Youtube/Facebook for obvious reasons.

Once I do my usual little detective work I was able to form a list of 8 kids - they got instantly banned and not just from the internet but from our entire system. Want to know how easy it is? Remote on server, Load shortcut, View list - Right click Disable - Done. Although I am not sure how easy SE's system is I really do not blame them if they go ahead and ban a ton just like they did with Salvage. There will be some innocent people who went along and didnt realise what was going on "I only wanted to access games"......

Well sadly its tough and guess what I wasnt too happy in spending some time chasing up those kids when I got a ton of work to do :)

End result - the entire year will now not do it and we informa all students that once caught the same happens to them. It is something I end up putting up with every 2-3 years. Sounds like I work for SE I swear.... I do not! :)

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 10:27am by Lonix
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#449 Jul 23 2012 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The other scenario is they'll go the same route as salvage.once they find a way to prove people are doing this, (Aka more then ok we know it;s going on) Suspend and ban people as they see fit, Then they'll look at the un-tainted data and adjust it appropriately. Either way by cheating or simply accepting other people cheat instead of straight out boycotting the event, You are causing a mountain of bad data and SE won't touch nyzul to make it easier until the gear is irrelevant or a side grade.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 9:13am by Laxedrane


That's it right there, as some one who works in IT (as I have said and even argued over the years). We recently found another little lad who came in with his bypass proxy .exe and gave it to his friends. Some just wanted to access games (innocent really) others though Youtube/Facebook for obvious reasons.

Once I do my usual little detective work I was able to form a list of 8 kids - they got instantly banned and not just from the internet but from our entire system. Want to know how easy it is? Remote on server, Load shortcut, View list - Right click Disable - Done. Although I am not sure how easy SE's system is I really do not blame them if they go ahead and ban a ton just like they did with Salvage. There will be some innocent people who went along and didnt realise what was going on "I only wanted to access games"......

Well sadly its tough and guess what I wasnt too happy in spending some time chasing up those kids when I got a ton of work to do :)

End result - the entire year will now not do it and we informa all students that once caught the same happens to them. It is something I end up putting up with every 2-3 years. Sounds like I work for SE I swear.... I do not! :)

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 10:27am by Lonix


Your job is quite a bit different from the facts. The facts are:

  • Developer releases content
  • People pay a subscription for it
  • Developer pretends they want feedback on content
  • People give plenty of feedback
  • Developer openly ignores feedback
  • People find a way to participate in content through modifications to the content in a way that fulfills the developer's end of the bargain, e.g., getting what they pay for
  • People are happy People are not happy but content to work with the alternative

  • Fast forward 6 months...
  • Some people that haven't participated in the content through lack of baseline skills, gear, jobs, etc. get upset
  • Nothing happens
  • Other people from a certain geography where the developer is located complain the content people from a different part of the world are getting gear faster than them
  • Developer rattles saber




  • Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 11:27am by TheBarrister
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    #450 Jul 23 2012 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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    ItsAMyri wrote:
    Doing everything right and failing anyway is life. Last night I was fighting an NM and, despite capped accuracy, missed a crucial Sudden Lunge and died. Was that a license to load clipper and set all my cooldowns to 0 to avoid that fluke of a death? It certainly wouldn't hurt anyone.
    ItsAMyri wrote:
    But, basically, what you're saying is that you would not support me using programs to overcome the limitations of the content I am doing? Even if they don't hurt anyone? (No player is harmed by me having 0sec cooldowns.)
    It's funny, because you're arguing against the use of a magical wonder program that doesn't even exist. That or you have no idea what you're talking about. Or both.
    xypin wrote:
    I believe everyone has already agreed that the success rate should not be 100% for even the best groups.

    Doing things completely legit in every way, the absolute best geared, most badass group of players ever to grace the game will likely only have a measly few % success rate, if they get lucky.

    How NNI typically works:
    You just zoned in? You lose.
    Guessed those lamps on the first try? You lose.
    You cleared that floor in ~20 seconds because you got lucky with a code lamp? You lose.
    No gears and not even any pathos the entire way to 99? You lose.
    Hydra on your kill all floor? Pyric Bulwark, you lose.
    Almost to boss with time to spare? Code lamp, but spaghetti code left someone on the last floor. You lose.
    Gears, gears everywhere on your kill all floor. You lose.
    NA? You lose.
    The sky is blue? You lose.
    Flee hacking and and DAT swapping? See above, you lose.

    Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 12:29pm by Reiterpallasch
    #451 Jul 23 2012 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
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    Oh I know how NNI works- my group only won twice out of our first 50 runs. This is with clearing 17 floors on average, using SCH x2, voice chat, and one person with .dat swaps (4 of the 6 are on xbox). Nothing is more demoralizing in NNI than clearing 16 floors and finishing floor 100... then clearing 20 floors next run only to exit on floor 72.

    Lately though, my group has been clearing floor 100 much more often (6 wins total, 80 runs). We're still clearing 18 floors when we win, so nothing has changed- but our jumps have been getting better. We threw around the idea that recording floor 100 and/or clearing it multiple times improves your jumps on average- but we have no proof and it's such a bs guess.

    Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 11:45am by xypin
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