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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#177 Jun 29 2012 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
SCH actually gets to cheat with regard to enhancing skill... just by being lv99 and putting Light Arts on, you're already over the 400 mark needed for 5/tic regain on Embrava. With 8 enhancing merits, you're already at the 420 mark, if I'm not mistaken. To go beyond that, you need gear.

Leveling the skill itself is really mainly for the WHMs and BLMs out there.

Well this thread had turned into moral debate in the few days I didn't check forums but gonna reply to this anyways. Sadly merits don't count before you cap your skill. Gear doesn't either. That baffled me to no end till I (pretty much accidentally) capped sch's enhancing. I was so sure it was just broken. ^^;;

Sch only needs to cap it for "no arts" state tho. It's D or something. 330ish skill. Then it'll be 404 (capped) with arts on and 420 with merits and arts on.

Edit add: the haste difference between 420 and 404 is roughly 1.5%. Not enough that I'd turn down a friend because of it (but might a random stranger, since capping skills does show certain amount of dedication to the job as well).

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 11:02am by Sharain
#178 Jun 29 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
cidbahamut wrote:
Camiie wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Agree with the methods or don't, the players choosing to cheat in this instance decide to do so because the event is incredibly rigged. The gear is no doubt still a factor, but a minor factor compared to the event itself.


If there were no gear, or the gear was subpar, no one would bother to cheat. The gear is by far the primary reason. They're not cheating just to take a stand against unreasonably designed content. That's just a justification.

No one would be participating in the event at all if there was no gear to be had. It wouldn't matter how well designed the event was, gear is what motivates players to participate in content. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

People wouldn't do the event at all if the gear was a side-grade or not the best in some slots period. So while sunrider is right, people cheat becuase the event is poorly designed, people do the event becuase the gear is good. So since factor b, the need to cheat to take the luck out of the event as much as possible, is dependent on factor A, The desire to win within a reasonable chance to get the over-the-top-gear, gear is the reason people cheat.

Absent A we wouldn't be having this conversation. This would be another dead at release event like Walk of Echoes. So, Sunrider saying that the gear is only a small factor in why they cheat is just him/her trying to downplay it. To what end I don't know I am not gonna put words in his/her mouth. However that is the point Camile is trying to make.
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#179 Jun 29 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd make a .dat swap for Revitalization Team (MMM) if it made the event worthwhile for people and fixed bad game design. I wouldn't personally do the event (nor would most anyone else), but I wouldn't feel bad about .dat swapping it. Fynlar and one of his friends are the only people I've known who have even attempted the event because the rewards are so atrocious.


The only reason I went along with it is because this "friend" (who's probably the same person you're thinking of, maybe) just wanted to have another potential "Ixion" mob to try to fight. And we never even actually got far enough to be able to try it either. I don't know if he managed to finish it off on his own >_>

Quote:
Edit add: the haste difference between 420 and 404 is roughly 1.5%. Not enough that I'd turn down a friend because of it (but might a random stranger, since capping skills does show certain amount of dedication to the job as well).


Little percentages like that do matter in there, too. I'm sure almost everyone who's been doing HQ Nyzul a lot (cheaters or not) has got at least one story of winning/losing a run by a matter of seconds.

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 11:51am by Fynlar
#180 Jun 29 2012 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
More fail phone posts.

"The fact that an event is tobhard is no excuse to cheat"

Technical complaint: flipping a coin 10 times and landing heads 10 times is not HARD. Luck based events are not hard events. Its not that the event is to difficult. Its that its luck based. Slot machines aren't hard. Lotterys aren't hard. Throwing a football through a hole 1 millimeter larger diameter than the ball is HARD. Hard means there is some skill required that would prevent success you must master (or set of skills, physical or mental).

"Dang another run of 2-3 jumps!" has nothing to do with being hard. No one is saying they cheat because its to HARD. (this also kills that tired argument that cheaters demand hard content just to cheat through it anyway). NI was never HARD. Just excessively luck based.

Stop saying flipping a coin 10times on heads is hard. Flipping a coin is frickin EASY. Justifications or moral stuff or whatever the **** somones angle is, no ones cheating because the event is challenging. Its a stroll through dc mobs and squishy mms. Its running a race in 30 min where the course is either long or short every time you run it without ryme ore reason
/endrant.


You're being pedantic, harping on word semantics. Whether you think the event is too hard or too luck based or whatever, the point is still the same.

Instead of simply refusing to do the event and giving SE time to fix it, you (or any other such person) has made the choice to cheat in whatever way suits you to beat the event and get a chance of obtaining the goodies; and most people don't care if you do this. Until such time as you get caught by SE (if ever) you do what you like.

What you cannot do is demand everyone not view you as a cheat or demand everyone think your reasoning for cheating is sound and view you as doing the right thing. Which part of this is so hard to understand?
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#181 Jun 29 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
Instead of simply refusing to do the event and giving SE time to fix it, you (or any other such person) has made the choice to cheat in whatever way suits you to beat the event and get a chance of obtaining the goodies; and most people don't care if you do this. Until such time as you get caught by SE (if ever) you do what you like.

What you cannot do is demand everyone not view you as a cheat or demand everyone think your reasoning for cheating is sound and view you as doing the right thing. Which part of this is so hard to understand?

Sharing your viewpoint on a matter is not the same as demanding everyone else agree with it. The irony here is that you sound very demanding telling someone else that they can't be demanding, all over an issue that you said most people don't care about.
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#182 Jun 29 2012 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I just have to point out that while a lot of Nyzul is luck-based, a very significant amount is skill and gear-based. 6 melee RDMs could enter Nyzul 1000 times and win maybe once. Performance matters. Killing quickly matters (hello DRK SAM). Survivability matters (hello Embrava/Regen V). Quick buffs matter (no COR or BRD allowed). Moving quickly matters (powder boots/sprinter's drink). Communication matters (Skype). You need all of this if you want to succeed.

Also I want to point out that no groups that do Nyzul will have 100% win rates unless you use clipper. If you use lamp dats, skype, and a good working relationship with your group, you will have 25%-50% win rate with a good group. If your group is not good then you still won't win. Really, you won't.

I don't want to call specific posters out, but have you tried Nyzul or do you just read about it? What's being discussed is hardly an instant win button. It simply disables SE's instant lose button.
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#183 Jun 29 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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ITT:

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I'm not a cheater! I only cheat when I can't win otherwise! Sure, I had cards up my sleeve, but I didn't even pull them out when I already had a winning hand!

Cheating only counts when you would have won without cheating, not when you cheat to win!


Didja ever think that maybe you aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate?

Events can be balanced around failure. If you have a 10%~ chance of winning and a 10%~ chance of getting the drop when you win, it's functionally identical to winning every time with a 1% droprate.

Neo-nyzul seems to be balanced around being way too 'hard' (read: chancy) to consistently win, while rewarding you richly when you finally do win.
#184 Jun 29 2012 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Didja ever think that maybe you aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate?

Except you'll never have a 100% success rate. You can throw 4 relic DD + 2 SCH at it, flee hack, run through walls, change all the dats you want and neo nyzul can and will still **** you with endless lamps and 2-3 jump floors if it feels like it. Even with 'cheating' and the absolute best possible setup, your success rate will still be far from perfect.

ITT: People who haven't actually done the event judging those who have.
#185 Jun 29 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
Instead of simply refusing to do the event and giving SE time to fix it, you (or any other such person) has made the choice to cheat in whatever way suits you to beat the event and get a chance of obtaining the goodies; and most people don't care if you do this. Until such time as you get caught by SE (if ever) you do what you like.

What you cannot do is demand everyone not view you as a cheat or demand everyone think your reasoning for cheating is sound and view you as doing the right thing. Which part of this is so hard to understand?

Sharing your viewpoint on a matter is not the same as demanding everyone else agree with it. The irony here is that you sound very demanding telling someone else that they can't be demanding, all over an issue that you said most people don't care about.


That doesn't even make sense. Xantav has already summed up the difference perfectly when he said...

xantav wrote:
I think all we 'demand' is for them to be honest. I actually have more respect for the guy who says "I cheat because I want the gear. No apologies". Don't give excuses to justify why you feel the need the cheat. "The system is too limited. It takes too long. Its too much work". Maybe its just me, but the first group doesn't seem to care whether others cheat or not. But the 2nd group seems to spend an awful lot of time trying to convince others that they should all cheat too.


As for me personally, I have taken pains to stress in my posts that cheats can do as they please - which is the exact opposite of demanding they do anything. In the post you just replied to I just said 'Do what you like'. How is that demanding anything?

All I pointed out in addition to that was that the cheats have no power to make people think they are something noble and what they are doing is justified.

We have heard their arguments. They have been rejected. Now this thread is just copy and pasting. We didn't think what they do was acceptable back on page 1 - we still don't on page 4. If you want to be here on page 15 still trying to justify it, be my guest. I wouldn't dream of 'demanding' you stop posting - I would just advise that you're wasting your time.
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#186 Jun 29 2012 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Except you'll never have a 100% success rate. You can throw 4 relic DD + 2 SCH at it, flee hack, run through walls, change all the dats you want and neo nyzul can and will still @#%^ you with endless lamps and 2-3 jump floors if it feels like it. Even with 'cheating' and the absolute best possible setup, your success rate will still be far from perfect.

ITT: People who haven't actually done the event judging those who have.


Edgy post, bro!

You'll find that I actually said you don't and shouldn't have 100% success rate, though, so I have no idea what you're trying to argue about.

I'm not judging you for doing the event, I'm judging you for cheating at it and pretending it's OK.

I'm reminded of a recent magic tournament where this guy palmed a card that should have been at the bottom of his deck and then played it to win the game. Would you say that he was justified? He didn't cheat until it became clear that he needed to cheat to win, and there was no way he could have won without cheating.

That is the argument, is it not? That Neo-Nyzul is unwinnable without cheating? Since when does the fact that you can't win without cheating make cheating justified?
#187 Jun 29 2012 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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I cheated in a game of Duck Duck Goose, and I don't care who knows it.

/edgy
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#188 Jun 29 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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Aliekber wrote:
I cheated in a game of Duck Duck Goose, and I don't care who knows it.

/edgy

Resist the Man, brah.
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#189 Jun 29 2012 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Reiterpallasch wrote:

ITT: People who haven't actually done the event cheated judging those who have.


FTFY Smiley: grin

Edit for quote too long! Smiley: smile

Edited, Jun 29th 2012 8:27pm by stupidmonkey
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#190 Jun 29 2012 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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I think you just illustrate our point even more clearly.

How aboyt you, yourself, go beat Neo Nyzul without any 'cheating' whatsoever. No Windower, no Spellcast, no .dats, no Clipper. Absolutely Vanilla.

Come back when you actually make a floor 100 run. I won't hold my breath. See you next year or so.
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#191 Jun 29 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
I think you just illustrate our point even more clearly.

How aboyt you, yourself, go beat Neo Nyzul without any 'cheating' whatsoever. No Windower, no Spellcast, no .dats, no Clipper. Absolutely Vanilla.

Come back when you actually make a floor 100 run. I won't hold my breath. See you next year or so.


I have done it. I have not won. I am surprisingly okay with that. Because I don't have to OMGWTFGIVEITTOMENOWWIN at everything I do. Sometimes the frustration makes me throw a controller, but guess what? I have been doing that with games for over 20 years now, and I survived.

It makes me laugh how people have been arguing FOR cheating.

This is a game. Games have rules. If you play the game, you follow the rules. It applies to every game, from Rock/Paper/Scissors to Poker to Tic Tac Toe. Watch Wargames, even THE COMPUTER hates the rules, and decides to play a different game, BECAUSE SOMETIMES THE RULES SUCK, but the rules make the game.

If you play Rock/Paper/Scissors, and use Sniper Rifle, guess what, YOU AREN'T PLAYING ROCK/PAPER/SCISSORS, you are essentially ************* because you have removed the whole journey, and just opted for the destination. If your argument is that you are playing rock/paper/scissors against This Guy, I would suggest moving on. Because hitting the robot that never loses with a hammer while it's back is turned is not a "win" at Rock/Paper/Scissors (Although it is probably a win against the inevitable robot revolution)
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#192 Jun 30 2012 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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It's a game. SE doesn't drown a sack of dumb puppies because you bent the rules and did something an easier way.
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#193 Jun 30 2012 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Didja ever think that maybe you aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate?

And that's why people say it's bad content. If you are sufficiently skilled, you should be able to have 100% success rate.
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#194 Jun 30 2012 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
Raelix wrote:
It's a game. SE doesn't drown a sack of dumb puppies because you bent the rules and did something an easier way.


Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry,

also sylvan your kind of missing the point myr trying to make.Well you got most of it but your answer seems a bit narrow against Myr thought out reasoning, in saying as such that since the gear is 100% for the top floor. It's no different then clearing lets say... Voidwatch which has a less then 1% chance of dropping something for let's say a 90% plus chance of winning. The ratio is the same or better then voidwatch just applied to a different area.
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#195 Jun 30 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
also sylvan your kind of missing the point myr trying to make.Well you got most of it but your answer seems a bit narrow against Myr thought out reasoning, in saying as such that since the gear is 100% for the top floor. It's no different then clearing lets say... Voidwatch which has a less then 1% chance of dropping something for let's say a 90% plus chance of winning. The ratio is the same or better then voidwatch just applied to a different area.

I'm not missing the point, because it is different. An effective drop rate of 1% describes the reward system, not the game play itself. It's better to have luck play a bunch of very small factors that will easily average out in a short period of time. Having luck play such a major role makes for bad game play.
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#196 Jun 30 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
svlyons wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
also sylvan your kind of missing the point myr trying to make.Well you got most of it but your answer seems a bit narrow against Myr thought out reasoning, in saying as such that since the gear is 100% for the top floor. It's no different then clearing lets say... Voidwatch which has a less then 1% chance of dropping something for let's say a 90% plus chance of winning. The ratio is the same or better then voidwatch just applied to a different area.

I'm not missing the point, because it is different. An effective drop rate of 1% describes the reward system, not the game play itself. It's better to have luck play a bunch of very small factors that will easily average out in a short period of time. Having luck play such a major role makes for bad game play.

So your saying it's good game design if you have to kill a monster 100 time to get an item verse automatically bad game design becuase you have to attempt to clear an area and winning on the 100th time to get the item at a guaranteed rate?

You do realize by applying the luck to the game play and having skill to increase luck in our favor is closest square has ever given us to the reward system you and the like have been asking for, for years?

Let's look at nyzul in theory shall we. An luck based event where skill increase your likelihood of winning. The quality of gear is based on how you perform. The control square put on this is luck. Granted there is other ways to do this but in theory it should work just as both square and the players would like. However there are people skewing the data keeping square from adjusting properly. But heh yay full circle.

Hmm a great solution would be like an over-time. If you say clear floor 83 and jump to 90 but you time out. It will pull you back to floor 80 and give you 3 minutes to kill the boss there.(1 minute for each floor over capping at 5 minutes. Since you only clear 3 floor up you get 3 minutes.) That way you always walk away with something. And take advantage of the 25 clears to get a piece.

But ahh fever dreams.
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#197 Jun 30 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry

Speaking of, when I was growing up, it was always cats that were the "bad guys" and dogs that were the "good guys." Dogs and mice. Cats were always evil, even though they're easily the more adorable of animals by far. This always ****** me off somewhat.
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#198 Jun 30 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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Erecia wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry

Speaking of, when I was growing up, it was always cats that were the "bad guys" and dogs that were the "good guys." Dogs and mice. Cats were always evil, even though they're easily the more adorable of animals by far. This always ****** me off somewhat.


Agreed.

Cats are better than dogs.
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#199 Jun 30 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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jtftaru wrote:
Erecia wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Of course not. They drown a sack of kittens. It's always kittens. Sack of puppies are only used in character devises for Tom and Jerry

Speaking of, when I was growing up, it was always cats that were the "bad guys" and dogs that were the "good guys." Dogs and mice. Cats were always evil, even though they're easily the more adorable of animals by far. This always ****** me off somewhat.


Agreed.

Cats are better than dogs.

Oh, it's on.
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#200 Jun 30 2012 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
My guess would be is dogs are associated as "Man's best friend" and "Honorable" while cats come across freeloading and manipulative. So yeah the opposite of honorable? Evil I guess.
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#201 Jun 30 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Cats are better than dogs when you're trying to decide what you want to eat.
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