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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#352 Jul 08 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dantedmc wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Yet, should SE ever cast their eye on the event again, seeing a higher expected value of HQ armor will suggest that everything's A-OK and no work is needed.


The number of Coruscantis disagrees with you. I highly doubt SE checks the numbers of gear received to see if their event is working.


You realize the existence of this dagger is far higher than the other weapons due to the ease of the mob it comes from in relation to farming HMP, right? The sheer number of Qu'lins killed should also dwarf the number of NNI clears exponentially due to the potential to spam them indefinitely. In SE land, unfortunately, that means diminished drop rates are justified. 1,385 daggers is pretty sad if you start trying to compare it against the total population. If 200k people play, that's 0.6925% of the population with one. A number like that tends to trigger my, "Why the **** do you waste time developing such content?!" logic since I'm not exactly a fan of artificially keeping rewards away from players, be it for prestige purposes or an excuse to skimp on content.

In further contrast, people aren't exactly grumbling about the unfairness of even completing VW. At worst, the only thing you need to fight the above is someone with the proper KI to pop it. No need for flee hacks, DAT swaps, or niche party set ups mooching Embrava. People have **** about the drop rates, and rightfully so. The "solution" we got was, sadly, idiotic at best.

Anyway, if SE isn't checking the existence of items compared to clears of something, they're failing pretty hard. It's like anti-dupe 101 from a security standpoint.
#353 Jul 08 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
1,385 daggers is pretty sad if you start trying to compare it against the total population. If 200k people play, that's 0.6925% of the population with one.


Um thanks for proving my point? I was hinting to the fact that there are so few coruscantis with people spamming Qilin everyday, yet SE sees nothing wrong with VW drop rates. They instead input a system where you need 5 coruscantis for 1.

Edited, Jul 8th 2012 4:19pm by Dantedmc
#354 Jul 08 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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We might not agree with their justification, but you can't exactly spam Nyzul, either. And really, I think people would be okay with the non-100% KI from a 100 clear if they knew they could get to it consistently. That's more of a pandering toward SE's flawed balance through rarity rhetoric, though.
#355 Jul 08 2012 at 5:08 PM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:
@ ManifestOfKujata

Yeah, that is a pretty strong label and I am sure you are going to say I eat kittens too and have cookouts with Nazis. I stand behind my above comments and if you see that as lying, so be it. I told you step by step what happened. You took one sentence and inferred a lot about it. "I just report them and they appear in Gooul". I reported the selling and asked the GM if it was ok. I asked about the action not the person. The GM then banned the people... I assume but am not sure, because they kept shouting and GMs can see the constant chat. It was causing a major argument among players in Jeuno at the time. This is when the concept of selling FCs were new. I did send personal tells to people later warning them what was going on but I never called a GM on them. I should have written back then: "I reported and questioned the FC actions and then they (players that were shouting) appeared in Gooul." After all, I am not a GM in FFXI, I can't ban people. If you have anger about them vanishing, I guess they did something wrong in the eyes of the GM. They made the call to temp ban them.

I didn't wish my comment to be construed as such and it was not my intention. I am not a head hunter that actively hunts out and reports people, however, if I see people cheating in front of me, I report them. I am sure you are going to say "mind your own business" but cheating does effect the community and the game as a whole. Everyone makes errors in grammar and communication (heck even people have posted here drunk) and to label someone so harshly as a sociopath crosses a line. If you met me in real life I'd hope you'd disagree. I just feel strongly against cheating in a game I love and if it comes off as strong, I'm sorry and I apologize.

klausneck wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I would have thought that the EULA would have a provision against taking advantage of an unintentional game mechanic (i.e. a bug).


It's actually under GM Policies: "Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play".

If you all are curious: 26 Nov 2008 Thread



If history repeats itself, that link is very relevant. After reading the entire thread I wonder if the same thing will happen to those players who are messing around in Nyzul. It also seems that people back then seemed to have more of a dour view of cheating (and they weren't even altering the game to do so).

svlyons wrote:
If nothing else, Prrsha is a good demonstration of how cheating and degrees of cheating are fairly subjective concepts.


True.


Some note worthy quotes from 2008:

Seriha wrote:
I can easily see why people cheat, RMT, or keep secrets to themselves in this game. It's something SE indirectly promotes with a lot of their design choices. It sucks the temptation is even there, no matter how strong a person's individual moral compass may be. It sucks even more when we're confronted with the choice of turning a blind eye to it all or throwing friendships away due a possible moment of weakness. It was something I was implying when I said this isn't just a game, but somewhere the distinction between game and one-upsmanship got lost, too.(


Catwho wrote:
Therefore, if I'm butt-hurt about anything, it's that my friends who did Salvage the way SE intended are nowhere near finished with even one set of gear, and a bunch of exploiters are selling extras to the highest bidder. No QQing here, just a loss of respect for anyone involved in this. This wasn't working harder; it wasn't even working smarter. It was taking advantage of a bug.

The closest real life analogy would be cooking the books because of a loop in the tax code. Your tax adviser assures you it's fine, although he warns you to keep it your little secret as he hands you a triple sized tax refund. When you're caught, it's enough to land you in jail for a few years.


Seriha wrote:
luxv wrote:
BarberofSeville wrote:
Everything in this game takes me about 4x as long as anyone else it seems. I'm in the middle of paying 140M for a relic that those with sponsorship rights are paying 40M for. 211 salvages with one finished piece to show for it. 1020 ancient beastcoins earned in limbus with NO homam or nashira. Etc etc etc.

I'm not going to lie. If there aren't some rollbacks, bans, or some sort of penalties its going to be very difficult to continue playing fair and not cheating. Heck, I have 2 alt accounts at 75 that are totally disposable. If SE let's this go unpunished it will be a clear message that all they care about is how many subscribers they have. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but when a linkshell walks out of a sandworm fight with 60M worth of drops due to cheating......I don't even want to think about how many noble beds or demon quiver stacks it would take me to match that.


If SE is worried about the loss of income from banned players, they need to sit down and think about what would happen when their game gets no new players and loses a significant chunk of current players because it has the label of being too full of bots/cheaters/exploiters.


Edited, Nov 26th 2008 11:02pm by luxv


I'd say that war's caused a good number of casualties already.

Regardless, those implying that none of this can be tracked are silly. Something needs to happen, both to punish and alleviate why people were tempted to begin with.




I haven't laughed as something so hard in a very very long time. XD Thanks. :3

Edited, Jul 8th 2012 3:18am by Prrsha


Seriha wrote:
Dantedmc wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Yet, should SE ever cast their eye on the event again, seeing a higher expected value of HQ armor will suggest that everything's A-OK and no work is needed.


The number of Coruscantis disagrees with you. I highly doubt SE checks the numbers of gear received to see if their event is working.


You realize the existence of this dagger is far higher than the other weapons due to the ease of the mob it comes from in relation to farming HMP, right? The sheer number of Qu'lins killed should also dwarf the number of NNI clears exponentially due to the potential to spam them indefinitely. In SE land, unfortunately, that means diminished drop rates are justified. 1,385 daggers is pretty sad if you start trying to compare it against the total population. If 200k people play, that's 0.6925% of the population with one. A number like that tends to trigger my, "Why the @#%^ do you waste time developing such content?!" logic since I'm not exactly a fan of artificially keeping rewards away from players, be it for prestige purposes or an excuse to skimp on content.

In further contrast, people aren't exactly grumbling about the unfairness of even completing VW. At worst, the only thing you need to fight the above is someone with the proper KI to pop it. No need for flee hacks, DAT swaps, or niche party set ups mooching Embrava. People have **** about the drop rates, and rightfully so. The "solution" we got was, sadly, idiotic at best.

Anyway, if SE isn't checking the existence of items compared to clears of something, they're failing pretty hard. It's like anti-dupe 101 from a security standpoint.


I agree with you completely. I hope they learned something from 2008. I'm just waiting to see how SE will handle this repeat of history.

Edited, Jul 8th 2012 7:10pm by Prrsha
#356 Jul 20 2012 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Camate wrote:

Greetings!

We recently confirmed that there is a bug for Nyzul Isle assault where users are able to know the order of lamps via the usage of unintended exploits.

The development team is currently working to fix this as soon as possible, but please keep in mind that using third-party tools or any form of game exploit usage will not be tolerated and that we are continuously keeping track and dealing with this issue.

Finally, if you are aware of players possibly using exploits, we urge you to make a report to the Special Task Force to help facilitate our investigation.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/25702-Nyzul-Isle-Assault-Bug?p=340539#post340539
#357 Jul 20 2012 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Huh. Looks like it's still considered cheating even if you need to cheat in order to win a game. Who would have guessed?

In before salvage bans, round two, electric boogaloo.
#358 Jul 20 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Huh. Looks like it's still considered cheating even if you need to cheat in order to win a game. Who would have guessed?


Don't think anyone was denying that it was cheating so I don't get the point of this post.
#359 Jul 20 2012 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Huh. Looks like it's still considered cheating even if you need to cheat in order to win a game. Who would have guessed?

In before salvage bans, round two, electric boogaloo.


I thought we had established that while extremely difficult, and very much luck based, that you COULD beat Neo Nyzul Isle without cheating. Just not every run. Or even every 5th run. Maybe not even every 20th run.
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#360 Jul 20 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't think anyone was denying that it was cheating so I don't get the point of this post.


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.

I remember when this game wasn't about exploiting your way to the best gear, and when the dupers, the cheaters, and the botters were looked down upon with disdain... apparently for most of the people in this thread, cheating is fine so long as it benefits them.

I doubt we'll get the good community of old back, but at least there will be some karmic justice in watching the STF bust some clipper-users kneecaps.

Quote:
I thought we had established that while extremely difficult, and very much luck based, that you COULD beat Neo Nyzul Isle without cheating. Just not every run. Or even every 5th run. Maybe not even every 20th run.


Oh, I agree, but all the cheaters said it was too hard and unreasonable without cheating. The fact that it can be won legit (unlike, say, Absolute Virtue where every winning strategy was patched out) gives even less of an excuse for cheating... it's like entering the olympics and cheating because, when you have to face good opponents, you might not win every time!
#361 Jul 20 2012 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
I remember when this game wasn't about exploiting your way to the best gear

I'm pretty sure you don't actually remember that, or have successfully blocked some memories. As long as there were ground kings, there were people botting 'em. This is just botting for the common man that doesn't require you to sit around in a room for 4 hours and not get to fight any monsters. A step up, I say.
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#362 Jul 20 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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My faith in FFXI ever recovering from it's current slump is pretty low. Granted, an expansion is around the bend, but that bend feels like it's lightyears away. I quit shortly after the VW (as in void watch, for clarification purposes) focus took over, and just before the final level increase, but from the sounds of things they are largely the same, if not worse than when I left. It's bad enough that Nyzul and all of the other 'old school' endgame events were reintroduced, but to reintroduce them in such a ludicrous manner, and this far along still have the same problems as when they were introduced tells me that those events need IMMEDIATE attention, before the expansion even comes into play. The Dev team has to be sick of cleaning up after crappy decisions, but with Tanaka gone there's really no excuse anymore, no brick-wall barrier preventing progress. Just change VW, Nyzul, etc to be 'fun' if they are going to be in the game and such a prominent part of gear progression. There's really no reason things need to be so bad that people rampantly cheat.

Part of what drove me away from voidwalkers (edited for clarification, listed both void watch and voidwalkers as VW before edit), was how all the link-shells I was in (and these were very reputable shells) would use cheats to find the location of the otherwise-invisable NMs, stand directly on top of their spawn, and tell the people in the LS that needed the key items to go directly there and pop it. The bleeding over of cheats into wall hacks, speed hacks, teleport hacks, and even specifically targeted events like Nyzul having otherwise impossible-to-know pieces of information not for the sake of winning an incredibly tough battle, but simply for the sake of progress so the group doesn't experience the constant frustration of intended failure doesn't really surprise me.

The thing is, I'd like to come back. I've always like the FFXI environment and the people in the game. This is a great community. The problem is the game has taken such a dive post Abyssea than it's not even worth playing unless your only end-game interest 'is' Abyssea, even then, you'd be screwed out of the "abyssea-specific" weapons that were supposed to be a primary feature of Abyssea, who's history is rooted in and stems from Abyssea, because the acquisition of those items takes place outside Abyssea, in events where people feel the 'need' to cheat, making a large portion of the content inside Abyssea pretty futile & pointless to pursue (for almost every job anyhow).

I'm a huge fan of windower, and I think spellcast is a huge relief for those of us who juggle 60 million macros accross all the FFXI jobs, but beyond that, outright wall hacking, speed hacking etc, it's just too... I don't know... Counterstrike-ish for the FFXI world.

My point is that, while I honestly don't blame the cheaters at this point, because the game is so ridiculous that people like myself are tempted to just log on and toy with programming their own bots, hacks, etc, as a personal challenge and piece of entertainment, with the idea that if they @#%^ everything and everyone else over, it's easy to look back and say "Oh well, S/E Made things so frustratingly bad that no person in their right mind want's to play normal anymore, so in a worst-case scenario, if I'm banned, I'm not playing a game in a way I don't want to play it anymore"... it's hard to argue with that, because sadly, it's more logical than banging your head against the wall and getting no where in a videogame for a huge chunk of your life.

Again, I like FFXI and I hope all this **** gets 'fixed' to the point of being playable and enjoyable, but in the current state of the game, I have a hard time envisioning very many people logging in and just having 'fun' at all, and if this progresses, the private server path of FFXI may very well go the way of molten-wow, where the game is a near-retail experience, minus a huge chunk of the bullsh*t.



Edited, Jul 20th 2012 5:20pm by FUJILIVES
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#363 Jul 20 2012 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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FUJILIVES wrote:
Part of what drove me away from VW, was how all the link-shells I was in (and these were very reputable shells) would use cheats to find the location of the otherwise-invisable NMs, stand directly on top of their spawn, and tell the people in the LS that needed the key items to go directly there and pop it
Yeah, that's not VW there, sport. That's voidwalkers. Void Watch is an entirely different, cheat-free animal.
#364 Jul 20 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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ItsAMyri wrote:
The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.

The only way you can feel vindicated by that post by SE is if you take the stance that even using windower without any plug-ins is cheating. Because that's what SE said in that post.
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#365 Jul 20 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Quote:
Don't think anyone was denying that it was cheating so I don't get the point of this post.


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.


No you're not. They banned less than 1% of the people cheating during the 9 year scandal of Dragon's Aery and other poorly designed Ground King content. In fact they didn't address this content until it was essentially irrelevant, despite a decade of protests across tens of thousands of complaints.

SE does not care about what you or this forum thinks about exploits. They are releasing this public policy statement because JP players complained NA players were getting 100 Floor Nyzul gear faster than them. It's really that simple. And sad.
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#366 Jul 20 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:
I remember when this game wasn't about exploiting your way to the best gear

I'm pretty sure you don't actually remember that, or have successfully blocked some memories. As long as there were ground kings, there were people botting 'em. This is just botting for the common man that doesn't require you to sit around in a room for 4 hours and not get to fight any monsters. A step up, I say.


Of course he doesn't remember that. He wasn't playing the game then, by his own admissions.
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#367 Jul 20 2012 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.

!


... so you didn't read the thread at all.


The more condemnation I hear the more convinced I am that its a bunch of ppl coveting the video game gear but lacking the technical skill (as little as it requires) to use the same tools.

Unless it disrupts the game of others, I really don't care what other players are doing. Why do you care?

If you drive down the street and see someone has a nicer car than you, do you hate them for having it, or do you work to get your own?

Several ppl in this thread have pointed out the user interface and design deficiencies in the game. Do you honestly think these are fabrications to ease the troubled conscience of all us players who use 2rd party tools?





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#369 Jul 20 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh wrote:
Can't wait until people who obtain better gear than me without effecting me get banned, since I've confirmed that I'm jealous.


I think thats what you meant to say.
#370 Jul 20 2012 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, this is an 'everybody loses' solution.
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#371 Jul 20 2012 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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It depends how they fix it. Regardless of their "omg, ppl r cheeting @ NI!??!!?!?!" response, they've been moving the lamps around in the .dats every update since releasing Neo-NI to try and mess up .dat swappers. They clearly always knew it was happening. Whether or not they're actually going to address it or just going to make the whiny JPs feel good is still up for debate.
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#373 Jul 20 2012 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh wrote:
Dantedmc wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
Can't wait until people who obtain better gear than me without effecting me get banned, since I've confirmed that I'm jealous.


I think thats what you meant to say.


Yeah, I'm so jealous of people who cheat to get what they I want.

#374 Jul 20 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Default
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Quote:
Don't think anyone was denying that it was cheating so I don't get the point of this post.


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.

I remember when this game wasn't about exploiting your way to the best gear, and when the dupers, the cheaters, and the botters were looked down upon with disdain... apparently for most of the people in this thread, cheating is fine so long as it benefits them.

I doubt we'll get the good community of old back, but at least there will be some karmic justice in watching the STF bust some clipper-users kneecaps.

Quote:
I thought we had established that while extremely difficult, and very much luck based, that you COULD beat Neo Nyzul Isle without cheating. Just not every run. Or even every 5th run. Maybe not even every 20th run.


Yeah, if this post happened in 2002-2004, the playerbase would made more of an uproar against it (as seen in the salvage link I posted)

ItsAMyri wrote:
Oh, I agree, but all the cheaters said it was too hard and unreasonable without cheating. The fact that it can be won legit (unlike, say, Absolute Virtue where every winning strategy was patched out) gives even less of an excuse for cheating... it's like entering the olympics and cheating because, when you have to face good opponents, you might not win every time!


Luck has always been a factor in FFXI. If not, there would be no need for Treasure Hunter. Drops would be 100%, BNCMs would always be rewarded.

FUJILIVES wrote:
My faith in FFXI ever recovering from it's current slump is pretty low. Granted, an expansion is around the bend, but that bend feels like it's lightyears away. I quit shortly after the VW (as in void watch, for clarification purposes) focus took over, and just before the final level increase, but from the sounds of things they are largely the same, if not worse than when I left. It's bad enough that Nyzul and all of the other 'old school' endgame events were reintroduced, but to reintroduce them in such a ludicrous manner, and this far along still have the same problems as when they were introduced tells me that those events need IMMEDIATE attention, before the expansion even comes into play. The Dev team has to be sick of cleaning up after crappy decisions, but with Tanaka gone there's really no excuse anymore, no brick-wall barrier preventing progress. Just change VW, Nyzul, etc to be 'fun' if they are going to be in the game and such a prominent part of gear progression. There's really no reason things need to be so bad that people rampantly cheat.

Part of what drove me away from voidwalkers (edited for clarification, listed both void watch and voidwalkers as VW before edit), was how all the link-shells I was in (and these were very reputable shells) would use cheats to find the location of the otherwise-invisable NMs, stand directly on top of their spawn, and tell the people in the LS that needed the key items to go directly there and pop it. The bleeding over of cheats into wall hacks, speed hacks, teleport hacks, and even specifically targeted events like Nyzul having otherwise impossible-to-know pieces of information not for the sake of winning an incredibly tough battle, but simply for the sake of progress so the group doesn't experience the constant frustration of intended failure doesn't really surprise me.

The thing is, I'd like to come back. I've always like the FFXI environment and the people in the game. This is a great community. The problem is the game has taken such a dive post Abyssea than it's not even worth playing unless your only end-game interest 'is' Abyssea, even then, you'd be screwed out of the "abyssea-specific" weapons that were supposed to be a primary feature of Abyssea, who's history is rooted in and stems from Abyssea, because the acquisition of those items takes place outside Abyssea, in events where people feel the 'need' to cheat, making a large portion of the content inside Abyssea pretty futile & pointless to pursue (for almost every job anyhow).

I'm a huge fan of windower, and I think spellcast is a huge relief for those of us who juggle 60 million macros accross all the FFXI jobs, but beyond that, outright wall hacking, speed hacking etc, it's just too... I don't know... Counterstrike-ish for the FFXI world.

My point is that, while I honestly don't blame the cheaters at this point, because the game is so ridiculous that people like myself are tempted to just log on and toy with programming their own bots, hacks, etc, as a personal challenge and piece of entertainment, with the idea that if they @#%^ everything and everyone else over, it's easy to look back and say "Oh well, S/E Made things so frustratingly bad that no person in their right mind want's to play normal anymore, so in a worst-case scenario, if I'm banned, I'm not playing a game in a way I don't want to play it anymore"... it's hard to argue with that, because sadly, it's more logical than banging your head against the wall and getting no where in a videogame for a huge chunk of your life.

Again, I like FFXI and I hope all this **** gets 'fixed' to the point of being playable and enjoyable, but in the current state of the game, I have a hard time envisioning very many people logging in and just having 'fun' at all, and if this progresses, the private server path of FFXI may very well go the way of molten-wow, where the game is a near-retail experience, minus a huge chunk of the bullsh*t.


That post sums of my feelings on the matter.

TheBarrister wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:
Quote:
Don't think anyone was denying that it was cheating so I don't get the point of this post.


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.


No you're not. They banned less than 1% of the people cheating during the 9 year scandal of Dragon's Aery and other poorly designed Ground King content. In fact they didn't address this content until it was essentially irrelevant, despite a decade of protests across tens of thousands of complaints.

SE does not care about what you or this forum thinks about exploits. They are releasing this public policy statement because JP players complained NA players were getting 100 Floor Nyzul gear faster than them. It's really that simple. And sad.


I guess I, and most of my NA friends are Japanese then.

Zelduh wrote:
Can't wait until everyone who got their nyzul gear illegitimately is swiftly banned ala salvage, since SE has confirmed that they're going to take action.


Yep.

Byrthnoth wrote:
It depends how they fix it. Regardless of their "omg, ppl r cheeting @ NI!??!!?!?!" response, they've been moving the lamps around in the .dats every update since releasing Neo-NI to try and mess up .dat swappers. They clearly always knew it was happening. Whether or not they're actually going to address it or just going to make the whiny JPs feel good is still up for debate.


Oh SE knew. When there is a hack that gets so out of control and spreads like wild fire, they HAVE to take action to save face. It just proves a point. What other people do DOES have an effect on the game you play. This is why such things like cheating should matter to the playerbase. SE may even remove all of the new gear from the game as a result or maybe even nerf it. We don't know what they are going to do, so it's sort of like playing with fire. Will it be a slap on the wrist to those involved? Will it be a perm ban? Will people get banned just from association. I would be **** if I got banned from the game just because some person is dat hacking in my PT.

IRL anology: A DEA agent sees someone drive 100 mph once in a while on a strech of road. They are more busy with drug busts and see that one person as a small fish, so they don't bother to pull them over.

Another day 50 people are driving 100 mph, get in car crashes and the media plaster the story all over the headlines. I bet you the next day that DEA agent is going to pull over ANY person going 100 mph just because the pressure is on them to do so. I am sure the developers of FFXI don't want to see the game as a cheater's paradise. They don't want the game to be seen as failure as a result of all of this hacking in the eyes of the general public... it's just bad for business.

I know this post will most likely bring of a Tanaka debate however... *rolls eyes*

The people cheated, admitted to it being such. They knew there could be consequences for cheating. Therefore they shouldn't cry foul when they were warned...

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 1:57am by Prrsha
#375 Jul 21 2012 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yeah, if this post happened in 2002-2004, the playerbase would made more of an uproar against it (as seen in the salvage link I posted)
While the anger of the playerbase has toned down a little bit, it's primarily the degree of cheating that is really at work. Except the ridiculously anal, not many players care about something that gives players an extra minute or two (.dat swaps). I'm pretty sure everyone here, both those using .dat swaps/fillmode and those that are not, have already said **** those people using Clipper!", which most people consider a higher degree of cheating.
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#376 Jul 21 2012 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, if this post happened in 2002-2004, the playerbase would made more of an uproar against it (as seen in the salvage link I posted)
While the anger of the playerbase has toned down a little bit, it's primarily the degree of cheating that is really at work. Except the ridiculously anal, not many players care about something that gives players an extra minute or two (.dat swaps). I'm pretty sure everyone here, both those using .dat swaps/fillmode and those that are not, have already said "@#%^ those people using Clipper!", which most people consider a higher degree of cheating.


The Salvage debacle didn't even involve hacking, it was an exploit... yet people seemed to hold a higher standard about it back then. And yes, they are people who care about the dat swapping. Every action has a reaction and this bad behavior just forces them to do something drastic. What if they nerfed all of the gear for that event? Would it be a fair punishment for those who actually got them legit? What if people got banned from having a dat hacker in their PT? That's my worry... SE doesn't have a very good track record when the ban hammer drops. It tends to swat some innocent people along the way that it shouldn't have...

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 3:34am by Prrsha
#377 Jul 21 2012 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Mosel wrote:
I remember there was a time when SE suddenly started to mass-ban people who used to cheat in Salvage to get more gear drops. I really wonder what will happen once SE realizes how many people are cheating again in Nyzul isle. Of course Nyzul uncharted is very bad game design, i tried it a few times myself, and i can see why people cheat in there. But the amount of characters running around in Port Jeuno in full sets is just unreal.

I´d really like to have some pieces myself, but at the same time i´m quite horrified about getting my char deleted for obvious reasons. I don´t think that if they do something about it there is a chance to say "oh sory, but i didn´t do anything, i was just the SCH waiting at runinc lamp blabla".

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 5:50am by Mosel


You kidding me SE knows, they are just letting them do it, then drop the ban bomb on them, they wanna lure out as many of the hackers as possible.
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#378 Jul 21 2012 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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I'm rather upset that this is only done to appease the JPs. There was much discussion involving the problems and ways to fix NNI on the NA official forum thread. There were even posts about the .dats swaps etc, but nothing even happened. However if JP players are upset, something must be done. This is isn't even the correct action to take, but the fact that its done only because some JPs are upset is just sad. The person who posted the video in question even stated that they posted it in April ON the NA official forums and obviously nothing was done then. This favoritism is getting more blatant and more distressing.
#379 Jul 21 2012 at 6:00 AM Rating: Default
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Xilk wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.

!


... so you didn't read the thread at all.


The more condemnation I hear the more convinced I am that its a bunch of ppl coveting the video game gear but lacking the technical skill (as little as it requires) to use the same tools.

Unless it disrupts the game of others, I really don't care what other players are doing. Why do you care?

If you drive down the street and see someone has a nicer car than you, do you hate them for having it, or do you work to get your own?

Several ppl in this thread have pointed out the user interface and design deficiencies in the game. Do you honestly think these are fabrications to ease the troubled conscience of all us players who use 2rd party tools?


This is the same conclusion I came too after reading all the hateraid being passed around. I've heard many people using those exact same words only to later change their tune after I directed them to a few write ups and how-tos and sometimes had to walk them through using pebbles on vent. After they get their first win their suddenly completely ok with using those methods, regardless of their initial misgivings. It's purely gear envy and is kinda sad. It's a bunch of 1's and 0's on a server, who fcking cares.

Now for all the "banhammers!!!!" people, I'm going to ask you the same question I've asked others. How exactly, mechanically speaking, would SE be able to determine who to ban? There is no checking for client side modifications, and while they could add something to this effect next update, it doesn't exist now nor did it exist previously. From the servers point of view, it's the exact same between someone who had lamps modded and someone who didn't.
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#380 Jul 21 2012 at 7:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Now for all the "banhammers!!!!" people, I'm going to ask you the same question I've asked others. How exactly, mechanically speaking, would SE be able to determine who to ban?

The same way we've always done it, Pinky. Completely by whim, along with keeping over a year's worth of chat logs from everybody. If they see you talked about it in chat, BAM!

You did know that's the real reason to use vent/skype/etc. while doing stuff like this, right? That way they have no record of you talking about the cheats.
#381 Jul 21 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:

TheBarrister wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:
Quote:
Don't think anyone was denying that it was cheating so I don't get the point of this post.


The point? After eight pages of feeble justifications and cheating-apologists, those of us who don't hack our way to better gear are vindicated.


No you're not. They banned less than 1% of the people cheating during the 9 year scandal of Dragon's Aery and other poorly designed Ground King content. In fact they didn't address this content until it was essentially irrelevant, despite a decade of protests across tens of thousands of complaints.

SE does not care about what you or this forum thinks about exploits. They are releasing this public policy statement because JP players complained NA players were getting 100 Floor Nyzul gear faster than them. It's really that simple. And sad.


I guess I, and most of my NA friends are Japanese then.

...Oh SE knew. When there is a hack that gets so out of control and spreads like wild fire, they HAVE to take action to save face. It just proves a point. What other people do DOES have an effect on the game you play. This is why such things like cheating should matter to the playerbase. SE may even remove all of the new gear from the game as a result or maybe even nerf it. We don't know what they are going to do, so it's sort of like playing with fire. Will it be a slap on the wrist to those involved? Will it be a perm ban? Will people get banned just from association. I would be **** if I got banned from the game just because some person is dat hacking in my PT.

IRL anology: A DEA agent sees someone drive 100 mph once in a while on a strech of road. They are more busy with drug busts and see that one person as a small fish, so they don't bother to pull them over.

Another day 50 people are driving 100 mph, get in car crashes and the media plaster the story all over the headlines. I bet you the next day that DEA agent is going to pull over ANY person going 100 mph just because the pressure is on them to do so. I am sure the developers of FFXI don't want to see the game as a cheater's paradise. They don't want the game to be seen as failure as a result of all of this hacking in the eyes of the general public... it's just bad for business.

I know this post will most likely bring of a Tanaka debate however... *rolls eyes*

The people cheated, admitted to it being such. They knew there could be consequences for cheating. Therefore they shouldn't cry foul when they were warned...

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 1:57am by Prrsha


You sure have problems sticking to the facts, don't you?

Cheating did matter to the playerbase.

And the developer ignored it at their first endgame content for 9 years.

People have been driving 100mph in this game for a decade. Every now and then if the people driving Japanese cars see a Lamboghini going faster than they can, the DEA does something.

It is not because the Ford owners can only go a max of 130 mph.

Oh and the road is 10,000 miles long and the speed limit is arbitrarily designed at 5 mph.

Let's at least stick to the facts - this was not announced in English first and it was certainly not because a few NA bed wetters cried.

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#382 Jul 21 2012 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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There is no checking for client side modifications, and while they could add something to this effect next update, it doesn't exist now nor did it exist previously


That would be illegal where I live. No amount of ToSing would give SE the right to spy on my computer.
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#383 Jul 21 2012 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Elwynbelwyn wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
Now for all the "banhammers!!!!" people, I'm going to ask you the same question I've asked others. How exactly, mechanically speaking, would SE be able to determine who to ban?

The same way we've always done it, Pinky. Completely by whim, along with keeping over a year's worth of chat logs from everybody. If they see you talked about it in chat, BAM!

You did know that's the real reason to use vent/skype/etc. while doing stuff like this, right? That way they have no record of you talking about the cheats.


Well if anyone's dumb enough to speak about such things in game then that's entirely their fault.

I'm just being real with people, anyone expecting mass bannings of all their enemies and perceived doers of ill will is going to be severely disappointed. This isn't about customers / cost or other narcissistic thinking's, it's purely mechanical. There simply isn't a way for them to know which people to ban for using lamp mods yesterday. I know the people with gear envy just suggest banning everyone with any floor 100 gear, and for them it appears entirely a valid option. Just goes to show how completely off their rocker they are. You don't create content then ban everyone who successfully beat the content. That will create news attention circa hospitalized players for 18hr Warden fights.

So now that the nuclear option is off the table, what is left? Well "fixing" it such that lamps are randomized server side is obvious. That doesn't involve mass bannings though, no contrived justice revenge though. They could get real creative with hash checks during startup, that only solves the problem for future modifications not for those who've already done them. So again no justice revenge. I guess those poor persecuted souls who've had all their dreams robbed from them will have to just live on with the bitter knowledge that justice revenge was denied to them. Sad I know, someone should write a book about it.
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#384 Jul 21 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
I've been reading and expressing my opinion in this thread pretty much from the beginning and I find one thing truly fascinating. Not once did anyone not in a light blue name say that windower is cheating and that people should stop using windower. All of us said specificly the plug-ins being used to make the event "fair" are cheats. The only people who blanketed everything windower does as cheating and morally wrong and should be apart of our stance were the cheaters themselves. It was a logically stupid rebuttal and failed against me at the very least since I don't use windower but it served the task to inflame people into thinking that is our point of view. It isn't, so if you all want to continue thrashing about being angry about something we didn't say then knock yourselves out.


And this in a nutshell is why the cheats should be completely ignored and why they have no credibility in anything they say. I already posted in this thread a while ago my observation that you only have to look at the type of people supporting cheating to ascertain whether it was morally acceptable or not and that observation has only been proven valid the more this thread has gone on.

Again, just look at the people supporting cheating and look at how they have behaved in this thread and how they behave on this board as a whole:

A guy who has been publicly warned by a mod to sort out his sh*tty attitude or face a ban.

A guy so pig headed and stupid in what he says, he managed to lose an argument to Jinte in another thread.

People who reply not to what you say, but to what they want you to have said - effectively ranting to voices in their head. Svlyons did that to me near the start of the thread so I effectively washed my hands of him/her.

Throughout this thread, these people have demonstrated they are really obnoxious and unlikeable human beings incapable of getting on with anyone who doesn't think the same way they do and their mealy mouthed, sanctimonious attempts to portray themselves as righteous warriors facing an oppressive, cruel, unfair taskmaster is nothing short of laughable.

If one were to believe the drivel spouted in this thread by the cheats, one would assume something like the following conversation took place before they collectively decided to cheat.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - Oh woe is us, we have tried and tried to beat Nyzul Isle Uncharted fairly but those damnable scoundrels at SE have created an event which simply cannot be beaten.

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - You speak words of truth my friend. I fear that our honest endeavours are in vain and we may be forced to undertake nefarious actions in order to obtain the much coveted gear we seek.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Surely my friend you are not talking about violating the sacred Terms and Conditions of the game which we hold dear to our heart and respect on every level and which were put in place so that all of us may enjoy a fair and equitable experience in the glorious world of Vana'diel?

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - I am indeed my dear amigo. I fear that in order to give us a sporting chance of completing this mighty task, we may have to delve into the murky world of third party tools. In short, we may have to sully our virgin copy of FFXI with dirty, nasty addons that give us recourse to even up the playing field and tip things in our favour.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - I don't think I could possibly live with myself if I did that.

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - Me either but our health and family life is suffering. Days we have gone without food or sleep and if we don't find a solution soon I fear tragedy may befall one or more of us.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Perhaps if we cheated just a little bit to give us the smallest of chances, in order to save us from a famine induced coma, perhaps then our consciences would allow us to sleep at night.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - Hmm, perhaps you are right, but where would we possibly go about obtaining these cheats?

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - I have heard it spoken that there are places that allow a fellow to download tools that give an honest adventurer the means to overcome injustice.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Know you of such a place?

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - Me? Of course not. I would never sully my hands with such works of evil. But I have...underworld associates who, for the right price may assist us in this matter.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - Then our minds are set. This is a journey that we must undertake but heaven have mercy on our souls for what we are about to do.

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - We should pray for forgiveness before we start.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Yes, let's.

The more this thread has gone on, the wilder their self justifications have become until at this point they would seriously have people believe that cheats are the decent people and anyone who plays by the rules is the bad person.

Since when did people who play by the rules and who don't cheat become the evil in society and those with sh*tty personalities who cheat because they can't bear the fact they aren't getting what they want become the defenders of standards? Oh yes - on the Internet, where black is white and people can hide behind their monitors and spew **** that would get them laughed out of any offline room.

The conversation above didn't really take place as we all know. Let's face up to the conversation that really took place:

Cheat 1 - AAAAAHGGH!!!! WE TRIED NYZUL ISLE UNCHARTED 3 TIMES AND FAILED!!!!!! @#%^ING **** SE SONSOFBITCHES THIS **** IS UNWINNABLE UN-@#%^ING-WINNABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheat 2 - Dude you are so right. (Turns volume on Vent down). Is your 10 year subscription to FFXIcheatsnbots.com still valid? Maybe they have something that can help.

Cheat 1 - @#%^ SE!!! @#%^ TANAKA @#%^ NYZUL!!! GONNA DO THE DAT SWAP CHEAT FROM BG!! OMG CAN'T BREATHE SO ANGRY!!!!!!!!!

Cheat 2 - Dude calm down or you'll need your asthma inhaler.

Cheat 1 - $$%&%^$!!!!!!

Perhaps a slight exaggeration but I believe the point is made.

Now their self delusion has reached the point where they are accusing anyone who condemns their cheating as 'jealous'. Like they have some special cheating power that no one else can utilise...

They remind me of jingoistic Americans who claim everyone is jealous of their country who points out anything America does wrong in the world.

No one is the slightest bit jealous. And if one day the cheats manage to learn how to read what is actually there instead of what they want to read, they will see that people have repeatedly stated they don't really care if cheats cheat.

What people object to is the cheats trying to make out they are noble or righteous or that cheating is the right thing to do.

At the end of the day, this thread is not a law court to determine if cheating should be allowed or not. No one in this thread has the power to ban cheaters or stop them cheating. There is no reason for cheats to post here at all, certainly no need for them to post hundreds of time.

This thread is not about cheats cheating - it's about them trying to make everyone think they are right to cheat. As usual for their kind, they are incapable of understanding that not everyone thinks the same way they do and they are not 'right' in what they do.

Perhaps if they could put their selective reading problem aside for a moment and concentrate, I will be able to make it clear once again where they stand.

If you (cheats) want to cheat, go ahead and cheat. Until such time as SE catches up with you, you are free to do as you please. Don't however demand that people view you as anything but what you are - a bunch of obnoxious Internet stereotypes who have established for yourself long before this thread came into existence a reputation as people whose opinions are not going to be taken seriously.

People who have used 3rd party tools since day one to take any sting out of the game and who want everything in easy mode. People who continually attack anyone who simply disagrees with them as a moron or an idiot. People who don't read what they are replying to and who instead try to make out people said things they didn't. People who have experience of every bot and cheat that you can get in FFXI. People who attack others for not cheating and who attack those who happily play by the rules like they were the ones who are doing something wrong. People who try to make out that anyone who speaks out against cheats must be 'jealous'.

No one is going to take people like that seriously. I certainly am not.

So, in short, take your cheats and go away. No one here of sound mind thinks you are noble or righteous in what you do. Indeed, in this thread you had a chance to put forth your case for cheating and you blew it. You showed for all to see the mentality of the cheat in your abusive and obnoxious replies to others.

Before I return to read any responses in a day or so, I fully expect the cheats to have ignored everything I have written and instead tried to justify their cheating some more. I also fully expect the justification of cheating to continue exponentially to the point where someone (probably Banalaty) compares cheats to Nelson Mandela. Or perhaps the cheats will spend another 253 posts explaining why they don't CARE what anyone else thinks of them.

Anyway, if no one objects, I think I'll go and play some FFXI now. I shall log on to my vanilla PC version, probably respond to a few random /shouts for help, give a few teles, chat to some friends, maybe get some EXP then log off and go to bed. I'm not sure how I'll sleep being the evil person those actions make me out to be, but I'll try.

Edited, Jul 26th 2012 7:30am by jtftaru
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#385 Jul 21 2012 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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#386 Jul 21 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
people have repeatedly stated they don't really care if cheats cheat.
I think posting and condemning people for cheating is actually the opposite of not caring if cheaters cheat. Or do you mean the people that don't care and haven't posted? Well I'm sure the "cheaters" have many posters like that too- they just don't feel the need to justify their actions to everyone else.
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#387 Jul 21 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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jtftaru wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
I've been reading and expressing my opinion in this thread pretty much from the beginning and I find one thing truly fascinating. Not once did anyone not in a light blue name say that windower is cheating and that people should stop using windower. All of us said specificly the plug-ins being used to make the event "fair" are cheats. The only people who blanketed everything windower does as cheating and morally wrong and should be apart of our stance were the cheaters themselves. It was a logically stupid rebuttal and failed against me at the very least since I don't use windower but it served the task to inflame people into thinking that is our point of view. It isn't, so if you all want to continue thrashing about being angry about something we didn't say then knock yourselves out.


And this in a nutshell is why the cheats should be completely ignored and why they have no credibility in anything they say. I already posted in this thread a while ago my observation that you only have to look at the type of people supporting cheating to ascertain whether it was morally acceptable or not and that observation has only been proven valid the more this thread has gone on.

Again, just look at the people supporting cheating and look at how they they have behaved in this thread and how they behave on this board as a whole:

A guy who has been publicly warned by a mod to sort out his sh*tty attitude or face a ban.

A guy so pig headed and stupid in what he says, he managed to lose an argument to Jinte in another thread.

People who reply not to what you say, but to what they want you to have said - effectively ranting to voices in their head. Svlyons did that to me near the start of the thread so I effectively washed my hands of him/her.

Throughout this thread, these people have demonstrated they are really obnoxious and unlikeable human beings incapable of getting on with anyone who doesn't think the same way they do and their mealy mouthed, sanctimonious attempts to portray themselves as righteous warriors facing an oppressive, cruel, unfair taskmaster is nothing short of laughable.

If one were to believe the drivel spouted in this thread by the cheats, one would assume something like the following conversation took place before they collectively decided to cheat.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - Oh woe is us, we have tried and tried to beat Nyzul Isle Uncharted fairly but those damnable scoundrels at SE have created an event which simply cannot be beaten.

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - You speak words of truth my friend. I fear that our honest endeavours are in vain and we may be forced to undertake nefarious actions in order to obtain the much coveted gear we seek.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Surely my friend you are not talking about violating the sacred Terms and Conditions of the game which we hold dear to our heart and respect on every level and which were put in place so that all of us may enjoy a fair and equitable experience in the glorious world of Vana'diel?

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - I am indeed my dear amigo. I fear that in order to give us a sporting chance of completing this mighty task, we may have to delve into the murky world of third party tools. In short, we may have to sully our virgin copy of FFXI with dirty, nasty addons that give us recourse to even up the playing field and tip things in our favour.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - I don't think I could possibly live with myself if I did that.

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - Me either but our health and family life is suffering. Days we have gone without food or sleep and if we don't find a solution soon I fear tragedy may befall one or more of us.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Perhaps if we cheated just a little bit to give us the smallest of chances, in order to save us from a famine induced coma, perhaps then our consciences would allow us to sleep at night.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - Hmm, perhaps you are right, but where would we possibly go about obtaining these cheats?

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - I have heard it spoken that there are places that allow a fellow to download tools that give an honest adventurer the means to overcome injustice.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Know you of such a place?

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - Me? Of course not. I would never sully my hands with such works of evil. But I have...underworld associates who, for the right price may assist us in this matter.

Innocent person forced to cheat 1 - Then our minds are set. This is a journey that we must undertake but heaven have mercy on our souls for what we are about to do.

Innocent person forced to cheat 2 - We should pray for forgiveness before we start.

Innocent person forced to cheat 3 - Yes, let's.

The more this thread has gone on, the wilder their self justifications have become until at this point they would seriously have people believe that cheats are the decent people and anyone who plays by the rules is the bad person.

Since when did people who play by the rules and who don't cheat become the evil in society and those with sh*tty personalities who cheat because they can't bear the fact they aren't getting what they want become the defenders of standards? Oh yes - on the Internet, where black is white and people can hide behind their monitors and spew **** that would get them laughed out of any offline room.

The conversation above didn't really take place as we all know. Let's face up to the conversation that really took place:

Cheat 1 - AAAAAHGGH!!!! WE TRIED NYZUL ISLE UNCHARTED 3 TIMES AND FAILED!!!!!! @#%^ING **** SE SONSOFBITCHES THIS **** IS UNWINNABLE UN-@#%^ING-WINNABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheat 2 - Dude you are so right. (Turns volume on Vent down). Is your 10 year subscription to FFXIcheatsnbots.com still valid? Maybe they have something that can help.

Cheat 1 - @#%^ SE!!! @#%^ TANAKA @#%^ NYZUL!!! GONNA DO THE DAT SWAP CHEAT FROM BG!! OMG CAN'T BREATHE SO ANGRY!!!!!!!!!

Cheat 2 - Dude calm down or you'll need your asthma inhaler.

Cheat 1 - $$%&%^$!!!!!!

Perhaps a slight exaggeration but I believe the point is made.

Now their self delusion has reached the point where they are accusing anyone who condemns their cheating as 'jealous'. Like they have some special cheating power that no one else can utilise...

They remind me of jingoistic Americans who claim everyone is jealous of their country who points out anything America does wrong in the world.

No one is the slightest bit jealous. And if one day the cheats manage to learn how to read what is actually there instead of what they want to read, they will see that people have repeatedly stated they don't really care if cheats cheat.

What people object to is the cheats trying to make out they are noble or righteous or that cheating is the right thing to do.

At the end of the day, this thread is not a law court to determine if cheating should be allowed or not. No one in this thread has the power to ban cheaters or stop them cheating. There is no reason for cheats to post here at all, certainly no need for them to post hundreds of time.

This thread is not about cheats cheating - it's about them trying to make everyone think they are right to cheat. As usual for their kind, they are incapable of understanding that not everyone thinks the same way they do and they are not 'right' in what they do.

Perhaps if they could put their selective reading problem aside for a moment and concentrate, I will be able to make it clear once again where they stand.

If you (cheats) want to cheat, go ahead and cheat. Until such time as SE catches up with you, you are free to do as you please. Don't however demand that people view you as anything but what you are - a bunch of obnoxious Internet stereotypes who have established for yourself long before this thread came into existence a reputation as people whose opinions are not going to be taken seriously.

People who have used 3rd party tools since day one to take any sting out of the game and who want everything in easy mode. People who continually attack anyone who simply disagrees with them as a moron or an idiot. People who don't read what they are replying to and who instead try to make out people said things they didn't. People who have experience of every bot and cheat that you can get in FFXI. People who attack others for not cheating and who attack those who happily play by the rules like they were the ones who are doing something wrong. People who try to make out that anyone who speaks out against cheats must be 'jealous'.

No one is going to take people like that seriously. I certainly am not.

So, in short, take your cheats and go away. No one here of sound mind thinks you are noble or righteous in what you do. Indeed, in this thread you had a chance to put forth your case for cheating and you blew it. You showed for all to see the mentality of the cheat in your abusive and obnoxious replies to others.

Before I return to read any responses in a day or so, I fully expect the cheats to have ignored everything I have written and instead tried to justify their cheating some more. I also fully expect the justification of cheating to continue exponentially to the point where someone (probably Banalaty) compares cheats to Nelson Mandela. Or perhaps the cheats will spend another 253 posts explaining why they don't CARE what anyone else thinks of them.

Anyway, if no one objects, I think I'll go and play some FFXI now. I shall log on to my vanilla PC version, probably respond to a few random /shouts for help, give a few teles, chat to some friends, maybe get some EXP then log off and go to bed. I'm not sure how I'll sleep being the evil person those actions make me out to be, but I'll try.

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 3:27pm by jtftaru



Bravo! This is the best post I have possibly ever read. I just started working the process of reactivating my account and coming back to the game. I've been in the forums trying to get caught up (mentally) to whats going on in the community and this entire situation just reminds me of the salvage bug.

All you can do is simply control your own actions, and hold yourself accountable to them. If you dont have a problem with cheating, by all means go for it. If you get caught you get caught, if not good for you. Either way I doubt anyone actually cares but you. Having rare and heavily sought after gears is cool for all of about three days, and if you want to jeopardize your account for a marginal increase (at best) to show ppl you are cool, by all means. For the people who dont cheat, keep ding what your doing and mind you **** business lol. You guys act like they are running around town PvPing you out or something. It is jealousy and you need to get over yourselves.
#388 Jul 21 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Zantetsuken2 wrote:
All you can do is simply control your own actions, and hold yourself accountable to them. If you dont have a problem with cheating, by all means go for it. If you get caught you get caught, if not good for you. Either way I doubt anyone actually cares but you. Having rare and heavily sought after gears is cool for all of about three days, and if you want to jeopardize your account for a marginal increase (at best) to show ppl you are cool, by all means. For the people who dont cheat, keep ding what your doing and mind you **** business lol. You guys act like they are running around town PvPing you out or something. It is jealousy and you need to get over yourselves.
Never thought one of the more sensible posts would come from a new account, but green arrow for you!
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#389 Jul 21 2012 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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jtftaru wrote:
And this in a nutshell is why the cheats should be completely ignored and why they have no credibility in anything they say. I already posted in this thread a while ago my observation that you only have to look at the type of people supporting cheating to ascertain whether it was morally acceptable or not and that observation has only been proven valid the more this thread has gone on.

Again, just look at the people supporting cheating and look at how they they have behaved in this thread and how they behave on this board as a whole

Do you attempt to win all of your arguments through ad hominem?
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#390 Jul 21 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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lol

@jftaru
which one am I? Really, you have this broad brush of judgment going around, please enlighten me!

I'm not being rhetorical. I really want to know. and I want someone to answer Why they care about others using 3rd party tools which do not affect them.



Edited, Jul 21st 2012 9:26pm by Xilk
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#391 Jul 21 2012 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

The more condemnation I hear the more convinced I am that its a bunch of ppl coveting the video game gear but lacking the technical skill (as little as it requires) to use the same tools.

Unless it disrupts the game of others, I really don't care what other players are doing. Why do you care?

If you drive down the street and see someone has a nicer car than you, do you hate them for having it, or do you work to get your own?

Several ppl in this thread have pointed out the user interface and design deficiencies in the game. Do you honestly think these are fabrications to ease the troubled conscience of all us players who use 2rd party tools?


Bwahaha, that's adorable, little cheater.

1) It's not hard to use cheats. You're not skilled or special if you know how to use them, you're just not good enough at FFXI to succeed without them.

2) I cheated in a 100 meter dash and broke the world record. I hacked a pacman machine and got the highest score of all time. It doesn't effect the other players of the game, why do you care? Oh, wait, it cheapens the accomplishment of the real players/athletes.

3) You're not driving a nicer car, you're driving down the sidewalk and then parking in the fire lane to beat traffic. If you won Nyzul legit because you had better gear or better tactics, that's one thing. You're winning because you don't obey the rules of the game.

4) A user interface upgrade is not equivalent to .dat modding lamps and speedhacking. I .dat mod my character because I don't like her hairstyle. This is not the same as changing lamps, or removing darters from Dragon's Aery, or changing the NM you want to camp into a giant obvious HNM so that you spot it immediately.

Windower is not the same as apradar is not the same as clipper. Cosmetic modding is not the same as running through walls in the same way that a rubber band gun is not equivalent to artillery. Yes, they're both projectiles. No, they're not equivalent.

At the end of the day, you can get as mad as you want, red-arrow me all you want, and try to turn this into some sort of cheat-envy by pretending that I am as much of a status obsessed neckbeard as you... but I'm right.

You cheat, and it's harmful. At best, it cheapens the accomplishment of those few players who are legitimately good enough to beat nyzul isle. The people who deserve the gear, unlike you. The people who are now assumed to be cheaters because the rest of you cheated your way through. At worst, it literally ruins someone elses day when you fleehack/use radar to claim their NM or use a program to see VNMs so that you can spawn them while the rest of us fumble around using the legit methods.

Now, the STF is on the case, and they're probably going to ban like no tomorrow. Legitimate non-cheaters are gonna get caught up in this fecal tornado, because you just couldn't resist the temptation to cheat. Maybe they signed up for a pickup run with you where you cheated, or bought some merced gear off you, or maybe they're just legit nyzul players who get caught-up in the sh*t when SE goes on a witch hunt.

tl;dr: If you want to cheat your way to victory, why not play a single player game? Why ruin the accomplishments of legitimate players? Why get yourself and the people around you banned?

Quote:
I'm not being rhetorical. I really want to know. and I want someone to answer Why they care about others using 3rd party tools which do not affect them.


'Cause now everyone who did nyzul isle, legit or not, is going to be at risk of a banhammer. Also, the people who didn't cheat have accomplished something impressive, and you have cheapened that with your cheating.

Now, when people see nyzul gear, they don't see a good player... they see a cheater. That is incredibly unfair to the people who did it legit, and it is the fault of cheaters like yourself.

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 10:35pm by ItsAMyri
#392 Jul 21 2012 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
It's not hard to use cheats. You're not skilled or special if you know how to use them, you're just not good enough at FFXI to succeed without them.


Every time you post it screams "I've never done NNI". NNI has very little to do with being "good". The event hinges much more on luck than skill and you would know this if you actually had done the event instead of constantly spewing garbage in this thread.

#393 Jul 21 2012 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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thanx for the reply Myri... thank you for actually answering the questions I posted.

I hope you open your eyes, wake up and pay attention someday...

I have never used clipper, a speedhack or a bot. I clearly stated in this thread that I do not condone these because they do affect other players. I don't care if other players speedhacked and clipped to get thru nyzul as it does not impact my playing. I have been speaking about windower use throughout this thread. Your analogies in 1~3 do not match the situation at all. you can have a pancake bunny for your trouble
your point 4 shows that you have violated your EULA by modifying the game as much as any dat moder in Nyzul Isle... you are just as much in violation as anyone you a labeling a 'cheater' ... uhmm I had more discuss, but I guess this isn't really a discussion...
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#394 Jul 22 2012 at 1:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Every time you post it screams "I've never done NNI". NNI has very little to do with being "good". The event hinges much more on luck than skill and you would know this if you actually had done the event instead of constantly spewing garbage in this thread.


Name one thing in this world that doesn't. You do the best you can, sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. If you're not **** good, you're not getting close to the top of NNI. If you are, you'll frequently fail and sometimes succeed. When you succeed, you're rewarded richly.

You can be the worlds best quarterback, throw the best game of your life, and still lose. That's life. The difference is, most adults shrug and move on when they lose, rather than assuming the world is broken and that they have to cheat to overcome it.

You throw a touchdown pass; the receiver drops it. Sun was in his eyes. Does this mean you get to grease the ball before your next punt to compensate for the fact that you feel you should've scored?

Do you really think SE would create an event with gear this good, which pays out every time, if you were intended to have high win percentage?

Quote:
I have never used clipper, a speedhack or a bot.


Yet. If you're the kind of person who runs for a cheat the moment he comes up against adversity (forget devising a strategy or waiting until you're good enough), you're the kind of person who is one over-contested NM away from loading up some more malicious 'tools'.

Afterall, you're clearly not willing to accept that some gear is beyond your reach, even for the time being.

Quote:
I clearly stated in this thread that I do not condone these because they do affect other players.


And what you're doing doesn't? It doesn't cheapen the gear of legit nyzul players?

Do you really think SE is going to release more difficulty-balanced content when they see that players will just cheat their way through it? Nope. Back to 0.1% droprates because there's no way for you to hack your way out of a **** droprate. This is why we can't have nice things.

If you think this is happening in a vacuum, you're fiercely deluded.

Quote:
your point 4 shows that you have violated your EULA by modifying the game as much as any dat moder in Nyzul Isle


In the same sense that a rubber band gun and an AK-47 are both projectile launchers, yes. If you break it down to such ridiculous pedantry, running music in winamp and speed hacking are the same thing, because they're both just other programs on your computer.

Don't play dumb. You know the difference between a cosmetic modification and cheating, and what you do is squarely in the latter category.

Rate me down, try to justify cheating until you're blue in the face, it won't save you when the banhammer comes a knockin'. I know I may as well be talking at a brick wall, since your pride is on the line and heaven knows admitting your wrong on the internet is impossible, but you know as well as I do that what you do is wrong. If you didn't, you wouldn't spend eight pages trying to justify it to the world and rating all dissent down through the shame tears.
#396 Jul 22 2012 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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You have to realize that it's difficult to see things from outside your own perspective. A liar doesn't trust anyone because he thinks everyone else is a liar too. A thief is paranoid about other people stealing; It's on his mind, so he extrapolates that it must be on everyone elses.

Now imagine for a moment that you were so obsessed with a piece of gear that you'd cheat and risk getting banned to get it... the thought that someone else might not want that item would seem utterly foreign to you.

I'm not really all that upset about an individual act of cheating. Like someone else said, it happened even back in the day. I remember camping Nidhogg and seeing it spawn purple, claimed before my screen even loaded it by a level 5 galka named Dragonsaerysdg who immediately disconnected after the claim.

What upsets me is the change in the communities attitude. Yeah, people cheated back in the day, but if I came to an FFXI forum and talked about removing the darters and running a bot I'd be tarred and feathered. Now, it's more controversial to speak out against cheating than it is to cheat. It's gone from taboo to second nature.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 3:53am by ItsAMyri
#397 Jul 22 2012 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
If you're the kind of person who runs for a cheat the moment he comes up against adversity (forget devising a strategy or waiting until you're good enough), you're the kind of person who is one over-contested NM away from loading up some more malicious 'tools'.
An infallible statement if I do say so myself.
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#398 Jul 22 2012 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh wrote:
I think it's funny that they think we're jealous and try to put words in our mouths.

When you concern yourself over the actions of others regarding an optional event and processes that really have no effect on you, what else is it other than jealousy?
Zelduh wrote:
It couldn't be any further from the truth, I feel sorry for people who cheat, I really couldn't care less about their ill-gotten gear. That's like being jealous of someone who gamesharked their Pokedex to completion. Want a cookie? Do you feel special now? Big whoop.
And yet, here you are, still going on about it.


Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:22am by SunriderRagnarok
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#400 Jul 22 2012 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Quote:
Every time you post it screams "I've never done NNI". NNI has very little to do with being "good". The event hinges much more on luck than skill and you would know this if you actually had done the event instead of constantly spewing garbage in this thread.


Name one thing in this world that doesn't. You do the best you can, sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. If you're not **** good, you're not getting close to the top of NNI. If you are, you'll frequently fail and sometimes succeed. When you succeed, you're rewarded richly.

You can be the worlds best quarterback, throw the best game of your life, and still lose. That's life. The difference is, most adults shrug and move on when they lose, rather than assuming the world is broken and that they have to cheat to overcome it.

You throw a touchdown pass; the receiver drops it. Sun was in his eyes. Does this mean you get to grease the ball before your next punt to compensate for the fact that you feel you should've scored?


Please stop using real life analogies, this isn't real life, but if you want to play that game NNI isn't like the receiver dropping a ball he should have caught, It's more like the receiver catches it and then a meteor falls out of the sky and kills him so you lose, constantly. There are so many ways NNI can **** you that are beyond your team's control including:

- Crappy Jumps

- Huge Kill All floors: even with powder boots this is obviously a huge time waster.

- Order Lamps: Either you use .dats and get it right or guess and have a high probability of ruining the run.

- Ja Restricted: No precharged stratagems for the sch, no 2hr etc. which can be very useful on a low time floor 100 boss.

- WS restricted: Have fun on that kill all floor / NM floor when you can't even WS. At best you'll have a blu to help and at worst everyone will just be swinging. This can even happen on Floor 100.

- Avoid Discovery by gears: Yes you can Voke or RA them, but they may literally be placed right next to each other in a small room that you must pass. So either you are wasting time trying to get them to move in a favorable position and/or you try to RA / Voke them asap risking aggro and have the chance of losing 1min on your short 30min run timer.

- White Magic restricted on a Kill all / NM / Boss Floor: Now your are down to embrava, regen, temps, and possibly a blu to keep your party alive and if your sch had previously used embrava, they won't be recasting it this floor.

There are probably many more that I'm missing, but I think you get the point. You can have all the best gear, the best teamwork, the right meds etc. and nzyul will still **** you. People are upset that no matter how you prepare your success heavily depends on the RNG.

Quote:
Do you really think SE would create an event with gear this good, which pays out every time, if you were intended to have high win percentage?


I had hoped that SE would be smart enough to make the event not completely luck based, but I was wrong. I had also hoped that they would add progression like Old NI where no matter what you were going up. In NNI the best you have 25 floor 80 wins for 1 piece of 100 floor gear which is just foolish.
#401 Jul 22 2012 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I should never have gotten involved in this thread. I think this is one of those situations where it's better to just sit back and watch people hang themselves with their own arrogance. Sorry it took me so long to figure that out. Carry on people. Carry on.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 10:41am by Camiie
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