Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#252 Jul 02 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
****
5,571 posts
Melphina wrote:
No matter what you do you lose. S-E holds all the cards, and the player can never win no matter what. That itself is the real problem in my book.

They would never do something like that, would they?

Absolute Virtue hides behind the furniture.
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#253 Jul 02 2012 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
3,636 posts
Reiterpallasch wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
This thread was better when it was about cats and dogs.

If you die, your dog will likely lie beside you, ever faithful, possibly until it dies as well.
However, your cat will just eat you. /truestory.jpg

I'm too dead to care either way, and I'd rather my pet survive than die like an idiot.

Incidentally, my current cat is a rescue animal. He, his sister, at least 4 of their siblings, and their mother were locked in a garage in an inner city abandoned house until discovered by people that came to condemn the place. Only he and his sister survived. He was nursed back to health and given away to our family, and is by far and large the sweetest, most loving cat I have ever seen. Whenever I come home to visit, he follows me around and sleeps on my feet when I'm on the computer.
____________________________
http://ereblog.livejournal.com/
Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
#254 Jul 02 2012 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still bitch about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.


Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.
____________________________
Carbuncle


#255 Jul 02 2012 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
I should of gone and re-read that post before trying to quote it by memory. That was very poor of me and my mistake. But since you so helpfully did the math of ratio I'll get to the point. The reason I replied to no other part of your post was becuase you pretty much proved the point I was trying to make. That even if there was a 1% chance of winning it will still have a better return rate then other events in this game. Even at a 1% chance of success your guarantee 6 items(since at this point there's no way you win with less than 6) of your choice no other event allows such a reward, besides missions. So purely looking at the achieving armor. You have a better chance at gear in this then some of the biggest offenders like salvage(Which looses out considering the fact you need 3 pieces 1 piece from a 5-10% depending, and another piece from one of the biggest @#%^s over from bosses.) or voidwatch.

So willing to put up with so many other bad events with %s stack against you. How is this any different? Is the point I am trying to make. Or is it simply becuase there is no other way to cheat in those events to increase the drop rates?
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#256 Jul 02 2012 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
**
342 posts
TheBarrister wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still bitch about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.


Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.

Hush. It's a Straw man. This has already been pointed out.
#257 Jul 02 2012 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
**
983 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
I should of gone and re-read that post before trying to quote it by memory. That was very poor of me and my mistake. But since you so helpfully did the math of ratio I'll get to the point. The reason I replied to no other part of your post was because you pretty much proved the point I was trying to make. That even if there was a 1% chance of winning it will still have a better return rate then other events in this game. Even at a 1% chance of success your guarantee 6 items(since at this point there's no way you win with less than 6) of your choice no other event allows such a reward, besides missions. So purely looking at the achieving armor. You have a better chance at gear in this then some of the biggest offenders like salvage(Which looses out considering the fact you need 3 pieces 1 piece from a 5-10% depending, and another piece from one of the biggest @#%^s over from bosses.) or voidwatch.

So willing to put up with so many other bad events with %s stack against you. How is this any different? Is the point I am trying to make. Or is it simply because there is no other way to cheat in those events to increase the drop rates?


Nyzul:
How often? Once per day hard limit.
How long? It takes half an hour.
Requirements? You need a very specific 6-man setup with 2-hours available.
Additional benefits: If you don't hit 100 on a 100-run, you probably get nothing worth having. You may score a paltry amount of Alexandrite if you hit another floor boss on the way up.

Voidwatch
How often? Three times per day (and then as many dusts as you want to use).
How long? With a good group, it takes about half an hour to form and another half hour per 6 stones.
Requirements? You need a really fairly variable 18-man setup. If you have multiple jobs, there's plenty of leeway for you to move around.
Additional benefits: Less amazing gear (Fajin Boots vs. Coruscanti, for instance), gil items (Heavy Metal Plates, Silver Mirrors, random crafting mats), XP, and Cruor (which is also gil).

So Nyzul might have a marginally higher drop rate (1% for floor 100 gear vs. 1% for a Voidwatch Body or probably 0.5% for a Voidwatch weapon), but it totally lacks additional benefits, has inflexible job requirements, requires 2-hours, and isn't spammable. If you ignore how frequently you can do the event, by your math Nyzul Isle floor 100 with a vanilla client is comparable to getting a Voidwatch body, except that you can do Voidwatch a minimum of 3x as often (effectively 3x drop rate) with a shout group of scrubs in less time and using more of your jobs while you make gil in various ways.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#258 Jul 03 2012 at 12:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,550 posts
And some wonder why I've wanted time-based entry limits abolished on such content. :(
#259 Jul 03 2012 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
701 posts
TheBarrister wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still bitch about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.


Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.


Not at all. I want to see NEO Nyzul fixed officially so that everyone has a reasonable shot at winning and no one feels any need to cheat at all. I don't feel that having some of the best and brightest of the community skewing the results by cheating helps lead to that result. I think it's more likely to lead to results none of us want. As I said, if we act like we are now they'll never fix the broken event. If we play fair they may. The chances are between slim and none, so yeah I'll take slim. The only drawback to my strategy is, I don't get loot from it.

I kind of wonder if those who are cheating their way through Neo Nyzul really want the event officially fixed at all. They have their fix in place to get what they want, and despite what some say, there really is no effort on their part to goad/persuade/bully SE into making changes.
____________________________
Character: Camiie
Elvaan Female
Bastok Rank 10
MNK 99 / BST 99 / SMN 99 / DNC 99 / SAM 99 / WAR 99 / THF 99
#260 Jul 03 2012 at 4:49 AM Rating: Excellent
**
430 posts
Seriha wrote:
And some wonder why I've wanted time-based entry limits abolished on such content. :(

Doesn't matter much if you need to pop a 2hr to do the content.

Camiie wrote:
Not at all. I want to see NEO Nyzul fixed officially so that everyone has a reasonable shot at winning even reaching the desired boss fight and no one feels any need to cheat at all.

Fixed.
#261 Jul 03 2012 at 4:59 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,550 posts
Elwynbelwyn wrote:
Seriha wrote:
And some wonder why I've wanted time-based entry limits abolished on such content. :(

Doesn't matter much if you need to pop a 2hr to do the content.


There are ways of replenishing them, but even NNI in its current incarnation would seem less daunting if you knew that in a week, you could basically try running it as much as you (or your group) would like. Luck elements aside, the more concentrated repetitions should also ideally build on what "skill" sets are required (if not taking short cuts). And since Assault tags wouldn't be a limited resource, losing wouldn't be as much of a blow, either.

But yeah, if someone wanted to Nyzul, Assault, Salvage, Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, or whatever for all time: Let them. If the concern lies in keeping people interested, that's when you start taking advantage of in-game point systems giving people more gear to buy or things they could sell off like all these abysmally rare new crafting materials. Maybe then SE would be left to create meaningful content and more often instead of hoping they can string people along with time sinks and fake difficulty.

Sadly, server code probably kills this dead because they haven't wrapped their brains around true instancing yet.
#262 Jul 03 2012 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
**
983 posts
To look at the "1% and once per day" number in another way, spending an entire year without wasting any tags would net you 3 or 4 pieces of armor.

I've gotten 2 Anhur Robes, Heka's Kalasiris, Toci's Harness, probably a dozen Heavy Metal Pouches (and Fajin Boots but no Coruscanti), lots of HMP singles, and I still have something like 200 stones left.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#263 Jul 03 2012 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,112 posts
Quote:
As I said, if we act like we are now they'll never fix the broken event. If we play fair they may.


I can't be the only one here that still doesn't see how "playing fair" -> "event possibly getting fixed", here.

To me the only connection to be made is "do whatever the hell you want" -> "SE does whatever the hell they want, which is often nothing at all"


Quote:
I kind of wonder if those who are cheating their way through Neo Nyzul really want the event officially fixed at all.


I think most of them believe that what they "want" to happen is meaningless because they are not the game designers, and that many of them have tried to be vocal about things that should be changed in the past, but their feedback was seemingly ignored.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2012 7:49am by Fynlar
#264 Jul 03 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
701 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
As I said, if we act like we are now they'll never fix the broken event. If we play fair they may.


I can't be the only one here that still doesn't see how "playing fair" -> "event possibly getting fixed", here.

To me the only connection to be made is "do whatever the hell you want" -> "SE does whatever the hell they want, which is often nothing at all"


"Do whatever the hell you want" would at least be a consistent standard for the players to take.

Quote:
I kind of wonder if those who are cheating their way through Neo Nyzul really want the event officially fixed at all.


Quote:
I think most of them believe that what they "want" to happen is meaningless because they are not the game designers, and that many of them have tried to be vocal about things that should be changed in the past, but their feedback was seemingly ignored.


I have a hard time believing that most of the people cheating have offered any sort of feedback on this topic to SE. If they have, I'm not seeing it.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2012 9:32am by Camiie
____________________________
Character: Camiie
Elvaan Female
Bastok Rank 10
MNK 99 / BST 99 / SMN 99 / DNC 99 / SAM 99 / WAR 99 / THF 99
#265 Jul 03 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Camiie wrote:

I have a hard time believing that most of the people cheating have offered any sort of feedback on this topic to SE. If they have, I'm not seeing it.


I have a hard time believing you've done your research into whether or not those people have offered the feedback you say they have. There is plenty of it. Including in this thread.

I think it's time you stepped off your high horse, because to me it looks like a miniature pony.
____________________________
Carbuncle


#266 Jul 03 2012 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
701 posts
TheBarrister wrote:
Camiie wrote:

I have a hard time believing that most of the people cheating have offered any sort of feedback on this topic to SE. If they have, I'm not seeing it.


I have a hard time believing you've done your research into whether or not those people have offered the feedback you say they have. There is plenty of it. Including in this thread.

I think it's time you stepped off your high horse, because to me it looks like a miniature pony.


It'd be nice if SE was paying attention to this thread for multiple reasons. I kinda doubt they are though. They have their own forums now. I've hardly noticed any of you guys there especially on this topic.
____________________________
Character: Camiie
Elvaan Female
Bastok Rank 10
MNK 99 / BST 99 / SMN 99 / DNC 99 / SAM 99 / WAR 99 / THF 99
#267 Jul 03 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
**
251 posts
Camiie wrote:


Not at all. I want to see NEO Nyzul fixed officially so that everyone has a reasonable shot at winning and no one feels any need to cheat at all. I don't feel that having some of the best and brightest of the community skewing the results by cheating helps lead to that result. I think it's more likely to lead to results none of us want. As I said, if we act like we are now they'll never fix the broken event. If we play fair they may. The chances are between slim and none, so yeah I'll take slim. The only drawback to my strategy is, I don't get loot from it.

I kind of wonder if those who are cheating their way through Neo Nyzul really want the event officially fixed at all. They have their fix in place to get what they want, and despite what some say, there really is no effort on their part to goad/persuade/bully SE into making changes.


At this point, I highly doubt Nyzul will be "fixed" again. They've already made their pass-through and put in the stopper and the progression Astrariums. As seen by where Nyzul gear is placed in Gobbiebag reward tiers, they view these pieces as rarer than most things. They obviously want most groups reaching Floor 80 25 times for that one rare piece, and only occasionally getting lucky with Floor 100. With as many hundreds of times as people spam each Voidwatch monster for glowy bodies (which are generally inferior to Nyzul gear), I actually don't think it's wholly unrealistic to win Floor 80 25 times for something as clearly superior as a Thaumas body. Also, recall how many hundreds of times people spammed that Abyssea quest for the Refresh subligar? Well, you've got the Nares Trews in Nyzul which might take as many or fewer manhours clearing Floor 80. Sure, it would have been nice if they changed the requirement to 10 times instead of 25 times, but people have certainly expended more effort for much less. I realize that may be a controversial stance, but it seems to be SE's stance for better or for worse.



Edited, Jul 3rd 2012 10:38am by Poltergeist27
#268 Jul 03 2012 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Camiie wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Camiie wrote:

I have a hard time believing that most of the people cheating have offered any sort of feedback on this topic to SE. If they have, I'm not seeing it.


I have a hard time believing you've done your research into whether or not those people have offered the feedback you say they have. There is plenty of it. Including in this thread.

I think it's time you stepped off your high horse, because to me it looks like a miniature pony.


It'd be nice if SE was paying attention to this thread for multiple reasons. I kinda doubt they are though. They have their own forums now. I've hardly noticed any of you guys there especially on this topic.


There are nearly 100 pages worth of posts complaining about this on other forums though...

Smiley: oyvey


____________________________
Carbuncle


#269 Jul 03 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
**
983 posts
...and that's not even the only thread about it. There have been several other threads (and several deleted threads) also complaining about it.

One of the earliest threads on the subject ended up being deleted because people were discussing 3P alternatives too freely. That's where I posted my suggestions on how to fix it and asked SE to do it. By the time the current Neo-NI thread on the official forums came around, it was already pretty apparent that SE wasn't going to change the event and many people had given up trying to change their minds (myself included). I think I posted in the newest one ~twice mostly refereeing arguments between tards. Keep in mind that on release, there was no astarium system. This alleged 1% drop rate (as laughable as it is) represents a dramatic improvement over their initial system. That WAS the adjustment.

I also made this thread ( http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/109245-Neo-Nyzul-Isle-%28CAUTION-GMs-have-been-banning-for-flee-tools%29 ) which has had plenty of back and forth about the problems with and solutions to Neo-NI.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#270 Jul 03 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
Byrthnoth wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
I should of gone and re-read that post before trying to quote it by memory. That was very poor of me and my mistake. But since you so helpfully did the math of ratio I'll get to the point. The reason I replied to no other part of your post was because you pretty much proved the point I was trying to make. That even if there was a 1% chance of winning it will still have a better return rate then other events in this game. Even at a 1% chance of success your guarantee 6 items(since at this point there's no way you win with less than 6) of your choice no other event allows such a reward, besides missions. So purely looking at the achieving armor. You have a better chance at gear in this then some of the biggest offenders like salvage(Which looses out considering the fact you need 3 pieces 1 piece from a 5-10% depending, and another piece from one of the biggest @#%^s over from bosses.) or voidwatch.

So willing to put up with so many other bad events with %s stack against you. How is this any different? Is the point I am trying to make. Or is it simply because there is no other way to cheat in those events to increase the drop rates?


Nyzul:
How often? Once per day hard limit.
How long? It takes half an hour.
Requirements? You need a very specific 6-man setup with 2-hours available.
Additional benefits: If you don't hit 100 on a 100-run, you probably get nothing worth having. You may score a paltry amount of Alexandrite if you hit another floor boss on the way up.

Voidwatch
How often? Three times per day (and then as many dusts as you want to use).
How long? With a good group, it takes about half an hour to form and another half hour per 6 stones.
Requirements? You need a really fairly variable 18-man setup. If you have multiple jobs, there's plenty of leeway for you to move around.
Additional benefits: Less amazing gear (Fajin Boots vs. Coruscanti, for instance), gil items (Heavy Metal Plates, Silver Mirrors, random crafting mats), XP, and Cruor (which is also gil).

So Nyzul might have a marginally higher drop rate (1% for floor 100 gear vs. 1% for a Voidwatch Body or probably 0.5% for a Voidwatch weapon), but it totally lacks additional benefits, has inflexible job requirements, requires 2-hours, and isn't spammable. If you ignore how frequently you can do the event, by your math Nyzul Isle floor 100 with a vanilla client is comparable to getting a Voidwatch body, except that you can do Voidwatch a minimum of 3x as often (effectively 3x drop rate) with a shout group of scrubs in less time and using more of your jobs while you make gil in various ways.


You do realize that most bodies have less then a 1% chance of dropping(Although who knows if that's with or without capped lights). On top of which using the data we are basing this on it's still a 4% probably 3% for a good group of people without relics(Just empy and other strong weapons). The other points you made besides 1.. I don't get why you made them. Are you saying you prefer the grind of voidwatch for those reasons? Cool. Are you saying nyzul a bad event for those reasons? Awesome, we agree on that, said it multiple times that this is a bad event.

The point you made of the fact you can spam Voidwatch is a tough one to counter, it's really just how you look at what you want to do in this game in general. Personally I get bored of constantly spamming the same nm over and over again probably only start doing it once very few days. However I can imagine other people being more committed. So your right you can change those numbers into voids favor if you spam the ever living @#%^ out of it.

The point I was trying to make here was that you get screwed over by %s anyways so your saying that if nzyul isle was spammable you be less likely to cheat? The 2 hour thing neither here or there since there been plenty of events where people have decided to 2 hour zerg their way through it. I am actually on your side of the fence when it comes to liking how voidwatch forces a varied group but many people taking your stance on nyzul do not. it was seen in the voidwatch discussion where the event was being demonized just like this one. Not that this one doesn't have it coming.

What I am trying to say is if it's such a sh*tty event, why don't you simply not do it? What is there to gain by forcing your way through an event you hate, in set ups you hate?

The point other people and I are trying to make by not doing the event is that, it sends HUGE message to square that something has gone wrong. And they have responded to it. Case and point Walk of echoes. The event was probably less liked, less attempted, then SCNMs(remember those?). Square spent over a year constantly adjusting the event with almost every single Version update. Still didn't manage to catch the player base attention. That's a HUGE testament to simply, not doing the event.
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#271 Jul 03 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
****
5,571 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
So willing to put up with so many other bad events with %s stack against you. How is this any different? Is the point I am trying to make.

And I keep saying the expected payout rate alone doesn't balance content. You say 1% expected outcome is pretty good. Want to know what else had a 1% expected outcome? Tier 0 HQ synths. And yet, it took me 467 attempts to make myself a Genie Weskit.

Did I feel accomplished when it finally happened? No, actually. After the first 100 attempts, it simply became an obsession. I just needed to see exactly how far the random number generator could screw me at that point.

Being at the mercy of the random number generator is not compelling game play. Doing old Nyzul has shown me just how frustrating it is to participate in an event where you are constantly in that situation. But at least with old Nyzul, you could feel like you were making progress over time. With new Nyzul, there is no progress. You get lucky or you don't.
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#272 Jul 03 2012 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
svlyons wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
So willing to put up with so many other bad events with %s stack against you. How is this any different? Is the point I am trying to make.

And I keep saying the expected payout rate alone doesn't balance content. You say 1% expected outcome is pretty good. Want to know what else had a 1% expected outcome? Tier 0 HQ synths. And yet, it took me 467 attempts to make myself a Genie Weskit.

Did I feel accomplished when it finally happened? No, actually. After the first 100 attempts, it simply became an obsession. I just needed to see exactly how far the random number generator could screw me at that point.

Being at the mercy of the random number generator is not compelling game play. Doing old Nyzul has shown me just how frustrating it is to participate in an event where you are constantly in that situation. But at least with old Nyzul, you could feel like you were making progress over time. With new Nyzul, there is no progress. You get lucky or you don't.


And I agree, the point I am trying to make is that you put up with it in almost every other aspect of the game. You continue to pay a monthly fee, you continue to buy content from square. With the pure exception of Abyssea which even then had some pretty good @#%^ you moments at the hands of the RNG. ALL events use the RNG some shape, way, or form. Nyzul just applies it to a different aspect. So if that's the case why do you continue to play the game at all? We both have our reasons,(Mines long since diminished, however I am sure we can guess why each other still plays this game.) we both agree on this issue. I am simply putting forth the notion that A, if you are willing to put up with it in so many other aspects of the game why is it suddenly a HUGE issue here? Why does it suddenly justify cheating? and B. If you bothers you that much why do it at all?
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#273 Jul 03 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
4,226 posts
Check the Nyzul threads on SE and search for my name. I've offered my feedback on how to make the event more user-friendly. Even if I'm 15/15 I still go back as often as I can to help my LS members get their gear so I still have a personal stake in how "balanced" this event is.
____________________________
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
#274 Jul 03 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
****
5,571 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
And I agree, the point I am trying to make is that you put up with it in almost every other aspect of the game. You continue to pay a monthly fee, you continue to buy content from square. With the pure exception of Abyssea which even then had some pretty good @#%^ you moments at the hands of the RNG. ALL events use the RNG some shape, way, or form. Nyzul just applies it to a different aspect. So if that's the case why do you continue to play the game at all? We both have our reasons,(Mines long since diminished, however I am sure we can guess why each other still plays this game.) we both agree on this issue. I am simply putting forth the notion that A, if you are willing to put up with it in so many other aspects of the game why is it suddenly a HUGE issue here? Why does it suddenly justify cheating? and B. If you bothers you that much why do it at all?

I put up with it in almost every other aspect of the game because random outcomes play a much less prominent role in every other aspect of the game. Old Nyzul takes all of the randomness found through out the rest of the game and adds even more randomness on top of it. Neo Nyzul then kicks it up a notch.
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#275 Jul 03 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
**
983 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
You do realize that most bodies have less then a 1% chance of dropping(Although who knows if that's with or without capped lights). On top of which using the data we are basing this on it's still a 4% probably 3% for a good group of people without relics(Just empy and other strong weapons). The other points you made besides 1.. I don't get why you made them. Are you saying you prefer the grind of voidwatch for those reasons? Cool. Are you saying nyzul a bad event for those reasons? Awesome, we agree on that, said it multiple times that this is a bad event.


I just used 1% because it's the number you used. Also, Voidwatch bodies are probably around 1% or perhaps even a little higher with capped lights. Weapons are likely less. As pointed out by Svlyons, being 1% doesn't mean that you will get it in any reasonable amount of time (or you may get two Anhur Robes in 3 kills, like I did). People tend to claim drop rates of rare items are lower than they actually are because they overestimate their sample size. My four pulse drops have been a result of ~650 chests, many of which were weapon NMs or couldn't drop pulse items (Qilin, Botulus, Ig Alima, Provenance BCs, etc.) I have personally been in the party for many Toci's/Anhur/Heka's/etc. drops, but I have been in the party for only one pulse weapon (Coruscanti) drop. Those are exceptionally rare.

Sorting by "defeats the ____" messages:
1/81 on Toci's Harness.
0/43 on Mekira body.
1/13 on Heka's Kalasiris
2/120 on Anhur Robe
0/8 on Voidwrought's body
0/5 on Hahava's body
0/148 on Coruscanti
0/7 on Ephemeron
0/1 on Uptala's weapon

4/270 total on bodies (~1.5%) <--- I feel I'm lucky here, so I've been saying 1%. Still, these are obviously more common than...
1/2664 total for Coruscanti assuming 18 people with cells that say something when the get Coruscanti. Even assuming a few have slipped past, we're nowhere near the 26 we'd need for 1% here.

Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
The point you made of the fact you can spam Voidwatch is a tough one to counter, it's really just how you look at what you want to do in this game in general. Personally I get bored of constantly spamming the same nm over and over again probably only start doing it once very few days. However I can imagine other people being more committed. So your right you can change those numbers into voids favor if you spam the ever living @#%^ out of it.

The point I was trying to make here was that you get screwed over by %s anyways so your saying that if Nyzul isle was spammable you be less likely to cheat? The 2 hour thing neither here or there since there been plenty of events where people have decided to 2 hour zerg their way through it. I am actually on your side of the fence when it comes to liking how voidwatch forces a varied group but many people taking your stance on nyzul do not. it was seen in the voidwatch discussion where the event was being demonized just like this one. Not that this one doesn't have it coming


If Nyzul was spammable, there would be less cheating. Making it spammable would ultimately require:
* A shorter event
* Infinite tags
* No reliance on 2-hours (add an NI-specific buff like Embrava with 25% movement speed)
* Removing Order lamps

I don't think it can actually be made spammable because the shorter you go the less you can rely on the law of large numbers, but it would be less of a downer to make your party and blow your 2-hour only to time out to a Floor 90 Genbu with WS restrictions if you knew you could enter again immediately. As it is, a vanilla party would basically face 4 consecutive high-performance-demanding runs (>2 hours) and at the end of the night they'd walk away with nothing the vast majority of the time.

Even with a 4% effective "drop rate" of floor 100 bodies, NI is not competitive with spending the same time in Voidwatch (assuming you value a single piece of NI armor as equal to a single piece of Voidwatch armor and ignoring the peripheral benefits). By the way, there are peripheral benefits to doing Voidwatch. I did some Celaenos last night on a mule that didn't have any stones just for XP/Cruor. If he'd had stones, he might have gotten a Laneglik for his Bard or Anhur Robe while xping/cruoring up.

Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
What I am trying to say is if it's such a sh*tty event, why don't you simply not do it? What is there to gain by forcing your way through an event you hate, in set ups you hate?

The point other people and I are trying to make by not doing the event is that, it sends HUGE message to square that something has gone wrong. And they have responded to it. Case and point Walk of echoes. The event was probably less liked, less attempted, then SCNMs(remember those?). Square spent over a year constantly adjusting the event with almost every single Version update. Still didn't manage to catch the player base attention. That's a HUGE testament to simply, not doing the event.


Lets see if I follow this. You think not doing the event will make SE patch it so it's reasonable, but provide examples of two events that either received insufficient/no attention from SE (you said SCNMs, but I think you meant ANNMs maybe because people did SCNMs) or an event that by your own admission no one does still (WoE). So you're saying we should not do the event in protest so that SE can incompetently adjust it and it can never be reasonable (WoE), or so that they can ignore it just like us (ANNMs + a laundry list of crap events that were abandoned on release)?

I don't get it. Can you give an example of a single event that was unpopular on release and ignored, only to have SE later patch it and successfully revive the event? I can't think of one at the moment. Their patches are generally too little too late.

~~~~ Insert visions of FFXIV's future here ~~~~

Edited, Jul 3rd 2012 2:30pm by Byrthnoth
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#276 Jul 03 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
svlyons wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
And I agree, the point I am trying to make is that you put up with it in almost every other aspect of the game. You continue to pay a monthly fee, you continue to buy content from square. With the pure exception of Abyssea which even then had some pretty good @#%^ you moments at the hands of the RNG. ALL events use the RNG some shape, way, or form. Nyzul just applies it to a different aspect. So if that's the case why do you continue to play the game at all? We both have our reasons,(Mines long since diminished, however I am sure we can guess why each other still plays this game.) we both agree on this issue. I am simply putting forth the notion that A, if you are willing to put up with it in so many other aspects of the game why is it suddenly a HUGE issue here? Why does it suddenly justify cheating? and B. If you bothers you that much why do it at all?

I put up with it in almost every other aspect of the game because random outcomes play a much less prominent role in every other aspect of the game. Old Nyzul takes all of the randomness found through out the rest of the game and adds even more randomness on top of it. Neo Nyzul then kicks it up a notch.



Even though how we already gone over the fact it's statistically on par with every other event, no more luck based then most of the events we are still playing?
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#277 Jul 03 2012 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
3,636 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
we are still playing?

Speak for yourself.
____________________________
http://ereblog.livejournal.com/
Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
#278 Jul 04 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
495 posts
svlyons wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
Yeah, I'd like a kraken club. Should I dupe hack to get one because the odds of one dropping in a BCNM are low?

You can sell off a Kraken Club when you're done using it. You can't sell off Nyzul gear. If you and a bunch of other people duped some piece of R/Ex gear, it wouldn't impact me. If I was a K Club owner, and you and a bunch of other people duped K Club, I would probably get upset because the value of my K Club would plummet as a result.


The argument that the item is not a rare/ex is a a stupid one. Heck, I bet you could prob sell the Nyzul gear to NPCs for gil, but I am not sure myself on that. The value of your "club" is what the NPC assigns it as. Players put their own value on items.

TheBarrister wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still bitch about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.


Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.


You forget alot of people play this on x-box or other platforms and have no access to cheats. Maybe someday SE will just solve the problem and remove PCers from the future all together due to all of the cheating/hacking. Is this what people want? As a PC user, I say no but if you force SE's hand they are gonna drop the ban hammer hard and without warning. Just you wait... It has happened before and it will again. If cheating gets so rampant it drives away potental players, esp those on consoles who can't compete. Just look at Hellkitteh's post for proof.

Hellkitteh wrote:
This is very true, the pressure to cheat is so great now! It seems like you have two options now, either you play dirty or you quit.People make you feel like by not cheating you are doing something bad, shouldn't it be the other way around!


Olorinus wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
The worst that can happen is nothing? You dont know SE very well do ya?


I thought it was "just like hockey" where fighting is cheating.... Wait? You mean the players don't hide what they are doing from the ref? They don't jump each other in the alley and break the legs of players on the opposing team while wearing masks so they can avoid the consequences of their actions?

If folks are doing nothing wrong, why don't y'all go post in the main forums about what you're doing? Oh, because what you're doing is NOTHING like the sort of cheating that gets you a two minute penalty - its like the kind of cheating that gets you banned from the sport (nancy Kerrigan style or doping style)

And for all those saying " oh my cheating affects no one else" that's bollucks. WOE shows that if no one does an endgame event SE will change it. But they certainly aren't going to change NNI except for the worse if a ton of people are maxed out on gear just a few months after.

Look, we all agree it is bad game design, but the fact is the reason why floor 100 is a 100 percent drop is because the "bad design" is supposed to be the factor that lowers the overall drop rates. So y'all cheat your faces off, and then those of us who believe in playing by the rules will be screwed because SE will think "oh look how easy that event was, next time we better up the randomness AND decrease the drop rates"

And there is pvp in this game, when I ask to join a party doing an endgame event I am TOTALLY competing against other players for a spot. If the leader has a choice between someone wearing decent gear obtained without cheating and someone decked out in the best from NNI - well who is going to get picked? Is it fair?

I know you guys are skilled and I know cheating this way isn't an instant win, but can't you understand that your actions DO in fact have an impact on other players because of the two factors? Like when it comes to me, since I am a noodling with mediocre gear at best it probably won't make the difference, but there are some really top flight players out there who won't cheat - and you have to admit, they WILL be looked down upon if they don't have the best of the best gear - or at least if they are competing for a party spot, they will lose.

And you have to admit SEs design can get more perverse, and if people get the gear faster than intended they will only make stuff more stupid, once again punishing players who don't cheat. Is that fair? That we ALL get more randomness and lower drop rates because some people were too impatient to wait until an event was fixed and cheated instead?


This sums up the anti-cheating argument. Bravo.

To all of you whom cheat or hack... to all of you who say it is OK and right. POST YOU CHEAT IN SE'S FORUMS. I dare you. Stand behind your opinion. If you are too frightened to do so, you have no right to even be on your high horse here. I'll state it again for clarity in an easy anology: SE owns FFXI. You are PAY for the right to play their game BY THEIR RULES. If you don't like it, too bad. You signed the EULA.


Camiie wrote:
As a side note, I did post in the stagnating "NEO Nyzul 2.0" thread on the official forums basically asking SE if they see the rampant cheating as a sign that the event needs serious adjustment. I tried to express the sentiments put forth in this thread as best I could. I'm obviously not as eloquent as some here are, but you can't say I didn't try. It really wouldn't hurt anyone here to add their input to the thread. The worst that can happen is what's happening now right? Nothing? Besides you guys don't want ME to try to be the voice of reason over there, do you? Few in this thread seem to be fans of my reasoning so.. yeah... You don't want that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0/page55
Second post on that page.


My hat is off to Camiie. This is the way to make things better, not cheating.

Xilk wrote:
Who decides what is acceptable? SE and the Playerbase.


SE decides NOT the playerbase.

Xilk wrote:
Its about agreement of what is acceptable between the parties.


Yeah you signed an agreement when you agreed to EULA... so uphold your end of the bargain and don't cheat. If you don't like that SE runs the show and rules then you shouldn't have agreed and installed FFXI.

Xilk wrote:
What does 'fair' have to do with 'cheating' ? The rules could be that 'every elvaan get 1 mil gil at jp midnight, while non-elvaan players do not' Then a 3rd party tool which breaks this UNFAIR rule would be 'cheating'.
If the loudest members of the forum decided, then it would be 'pure democracy' (ie MOB RULE).


If the rule was that then elvaan would get one mil and you'd have to accept it. You are not the game's maker nor are you on the dev team. "Pure democracy" of a game is NOT mob rule of the most vocal person on a forum. Everyone has an equal voice. If SE wanted to have a question answered they could just have a poll pop up when you log on.

Xilk wrote:
Do you feel the EULA is something you really 'Agreed to' ?


If you play FFXI then you did. There is no grey. You don't "half-sign" a legal document then ignore it later. That ends you up in a place called Jail (or penalized).

Xilk wrote:
Personally I think the moral Implications of 'cheating' are lessened significantly in this context. The only moral issue imo is that of the 'agreement' between myself and SE.


I'd hope morally people would be men/women of their word and uphold what they agree to and not wiggle/bend their way out of it

[quote=Xilk]
I think the confusion and most the conflict comes from forum posters using and blending different definitions of Cheating.
I believe these 3 definitions apply to this discussion

Cheat:
1. To violate rules or regulations
2. To defraud or swindle; to deceive
3. Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage
[/quote]

Check, check and check. You violate all of those definitions when you cheat in Nyzul. #1 breaks the EULA. #2 People are HIDING the fact they cheat. If you are not deceiving then prove it by posting in their forums exactly which hacks you use and where. Ask them if it is ok too while you are at it. #3 Yup. X-box users don't have access to those cheats nor do PS users. Also, if SE wanted those cheats in the game, maybe you should share them with SE so they can give every player the ability to do so... just to be fair.

I have a quick question... where is Pikko? I'd love to see her opinion on this matter.



Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:45pm by Vlorsutes
#282 Jul 04 2012 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
First and foremost Prrsha, please don't multi-post like that. Even though it would have been a long post, you should have condensed your four to a single post rather than quadruple posting like that. There are some exceptions I'll give to multi-posting, like if it's someone adding something new to the topic and bumping it in the process (though at the same time necroposting is an issue), but that's about it. I've combined them all into one, and ask again that you don't do that anymore. Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.


Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:54pm by Vlorsutes
____________________________
Lady Jinte wrote:

Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points


My thoughts and reviews on all sorts of sci-fi stuff...and things.
#283 Jul 04 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Default
Sage
***
3,636 posts
Vlorsutes wrote:
Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.

And thus passes the greatest taru of a generation.
____________________________
http://ereblog.livejournal.com/
Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
#284 Jul 04 2012 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
2,493 posts
Erecia wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.

And thus passes the greatest taru of ANY generation.


Fixed

Screenshot Smiley: cry

No offense, by the way, to all the other Taru's, nothing but love, my diminutive amigos
____________________________
Dandruffshampoo wrote:
Curses, beaten by Professor stupidopo-opo.
Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Stupidmonkey is more organized than a bag of raccoons.
#285 Jul 04 2012 at 7:47 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
495 posts
Vlorsutes wrote:
First and foremost Prrsha, please don't multi-post like that. Even though it would have been a long post, you should have condensed your four to a single post rather than quadruple posting like that. There are some exceptions I'll give to multi-posting, like if it's someone adding something new to the topic and bumping it in the process (though at the same time necroposting is an issue), but that's about it. I've combined them all into one, and ask again that you don't do that anymore. Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.


Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:54pm by Vlorsutes


Since the one post was to one person, and another post to a different one, I separated them for clarity... the final post was just a question about Pikko and was a tad off topic so I put it separate... that was my mindset anyhow.

My apologies... I didn't intend to violate forum format guidelines.

About Pikko, she plays FFXIV now? Does she moderate/check these forums anymore or does she follow the ZAM 14 forums? I was just wondering about her role now in ZAM. She was the 1st admin I knew here... I miss her comments. :3

And happy 4th to everyone...

Edited, Jul 4th 2012 9:48pm by Prrsha
#286 Jul 04 2012 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
I understand your reasoning, but it's still better to keep it all in one post like that rather than having four separate posts in a row like that. She doesn't really check these forums anymore as far as moderating, and I don't believe (though I don't know for certain) that she reads them for the sake of reading them.
____________________________
Lady Jinte wrote:

Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points


My thoughts and reviews on all sorts of sci-fi stuff...and things.
#287 Jul 04 2012 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Prrsha wrote:

TheBarrister wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still bitch about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.


Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.


You forget alot of people play this on x-box or other platforms and have no access to cheats. Maybe someday SE will just solve the problem and remove PCers from the future all together due to all of the cheating/hacking. Is this what people want? As a PC user, I say no but if you force SE's hand they are gonna drop the ban hammer hard and without warning. Just you wait... It has happened before and it will again. If cheating gets so rampant it drives away potental players, esp those on consoles who can't compete. Just look at Hellkitteh's post for proof.

Hellkitteh wrote:
This is very true, the pressure to cheat is so great now! It seems like you have two options now, either you play dirty or you quit.People make you feel like by not cheating you are doing something bad, shouldn't it be the other way around!



First, I think they are going to remove stone age platforms first. There is evidence to support that. As usual, what there is not, is evidence to support your position.

Second, what Hellkitteh says is "very true" is her own experience, and one that I suspect is based on very little actual widespread exposure. No one is pressuring anyone else to do anything. You can play on a 10 year old electronic device intended for pre-HD video and accomplish everything in this game. I have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating". However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.


Edited, Jul 4th 2012 10:44pm by TheBarrister
____________________________
Carbuncle


#288 Jul 04 2012 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
495 posts
TheBarrister wrote:
have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating".


Who in their right mind would? Would the Mafia come out in the 20's.... place a radio ad saying "We are going to firebomb all of your houses unless to send 10% of your income to P.O. box...."

No. People intimidate in secret so they don't get caught, because they either know it is wrong, or they know they can get penalized for it.

TheBarrister wrote:
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.


However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and then they threaten them into never setting foot in another MMO.

High horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers are par for any polarized argument on BOTH sides. This is... as the mod said a very polarizing issue. It's because people care that much about FFXI that people post with such fevor. I can see both angles to this and out of my 15 years of playing MMOs I can say this with certainty: I have never seen a case where CHEATING has benefited a MMO other then cause developers to devote more time and money fixing holes that players create. It drains them of time. It drains and divides the playerbase. It makes the MMO a laughing stock among others due to its "exploitability".

A MMO is not a person's personal data/content sandbox or else SE would have added an editor to the game or some sort of other tools. It also gives you no right to change their game just because you want this and that item from it. It is their intellectual property, not yours. They tell you the rules, you agree to them and install the game and you play it within their rules. If SE doesn't like you breaking their rules they are free to ban you. The question isn't the morals... but it really is an interesting topic about generations... but I degress. The question is about laws/rules. The altering of data in the game is pretty black and white in the EULA. Is it morally right or wrong? Is that question really another topic? One can debate for days.

What can be gained from it is this:

#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.

When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.

To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.

Edited, Jul 4th 2012 11:27pm by Prrsha
#289 Jul 04 2012 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
4,226 posts
Prrsha wrote:
What can be gained from it is this:

#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.

When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.

To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
So you're one of those people who thinks players should be banned for using windower. If so we will never agree on anything.
____________________________
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
#290 Jul 04 2012 at 11:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
****
4,226 posts
By the way, you two work it out and decide who gets to use the moogle with sunglasses avatar. Seriously.
____________________________
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
#291 Jul 04 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
495 posts
Prrsha wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating".


Who in their right mind would? Would the Mafia come out in the 20's.... place a radio ad saying "We are going to firebomb all of your houses unless to send 10% of your income to P.O. box...."

No. People intimidate in secret so they don't get caught, because they either know it is wrong, or they know they can get penalized for it.

TheBarrister wrote:
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.


However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and then they threaten them into never setting foot in another MMO.

High horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers are par for any polarized argument on BOTH sides. This is... as the mod said a very polarizing issue. It's because people care that much about FFXI that people post with such fevor. I can see both angles to this and out of my 15 years of playing MMOs I can say this with certainty: I have never seen a case where CHEATING has benefited a MMO other then cause developers to devote more time and money fixing holes that players create. It drains them of time. It drains and divides the playerbase. It makes the MMO a laughing stock among others due to its "exploitability".

A MMO is not a person's personal data/content sandbox or else SE would have added an editor to the game or some sort of other tools. It also gives you no right to change their game just because you want this and that item from it. It is their intellectual property, not yours. They tell you the rules, you agree to them and install the game and you play it within their rules. If SE doesn't like you breaking their rules they are free to ban you. The question isn't the morals... but it really is an interesting topic about generations... but I degress. The question is about laws/rules. The altering of data in the game is pretty black and white in the EULA. Is it morally right or wrong? Is that question really another topic? One can debate for days.

What can be gained from it is this:

#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.

When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.

To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.

Edited, Jul 4th 2012 11:27pm by Prrsha


detlef wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
What can be gained from it is this:

#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.

When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.

To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
So you're one of those people who thinks players should be banned for using windower. If so we will never agree on anything.


I never said I thought it was right or wrong personally in my above quote. That is very grey. I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced. To clarify: The EULA would put the windower in the bannable cataegory. My personal opinion... I don't see just the plain vanalla windower as "cheat" or an "exploit"... so morals wise I don't see it as being bad per say. EULA wise, it is black and white though (read my above comment a few pages back about decision making as a GM)... and no, I have never used a windower despite being on a PC. To this day I run the game on full screen mode (just my pref).

detlef wrote:
By the way, you two work it out and decide who gets to use the moogle with sunglasses avatar. Seriously.


Just think of us as two sides of the same coin. :P :3

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 1:53am by Prrsha
#292 Jul 05 2012 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Prrsha wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating".


Who in their right mind would? Would the Mafia come out in the 20's.... place a radio ad saying "We are going to firebomb all of your houses unless to send 10% of your income to P.O. box...."

No. People intimidate in secret so they don't get caught, because they either know it is wrong, or they know they can get penalized for it.

TheBarrister wrote:
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.


However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and then they threaten them into never setting foot in another MMO.

High horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers are par for any polarized argument on BOTH sides. This is... as the mod said a very polarizing issue. It's because people care that much about FFXI that people post with such fevor. I can see both angles to this and out of my 15 years of playing MMOs I can say this with certainty: I have never seen a case where CHEATING has benefited a MMO other then cause developers to devote more time and money fixing holes that players create. It drains them of time. It drains and divides the playerbase. It makes the MMO a laughing stock among others due to its "exploitability".


We really don't have the situation that you say. The people you refer to as not playing vanilla FFXI simply do not care what the vanilla players are doing. Whereas the vanilla players, at least the ones I have seen on this thread and a few people I know in game, sure as heck take a lot of time to whine about what they perceive to be an affront on the very fabric of the universe.


____________________________
Carbuncle


#293 Jul 05 2012 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
**
251 posts
Prrsha, your whole EULA argument and your challenge for people to post on SE's forums saying they cheat is a non-issue. Who in this thread is actually debating that? The people who cheat in Nyzul KNOW that it is contrary to the terms of the EULA. They KNOW that it would get them banned if SE caught them flee-hacking red-handed. They are not advocating that it is OK from the standpoint of SE. They are explaining why they feel it is justified vis-a-vis the playerbase. Thus, I fail to see how essentially offering themselves up to a GM on a silver platter proves anything or advances this argument or thread.
#294 Jul 05 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
***
2,270 posts
Stupid wireless here reset and ate my post but gist of it was
There ARE cheats that improve games. Not all player created/asjusted content kills mmos or any game mods being the most common. Look at counter strike. Look at vanila windower. Any popular game has thousands of users with good ideas to help the game they love be better. Some ffxi players with tech Davy got together and said: you know what would be AWESOME!? If ffxi didn't crash every time I get a popup. No what else? If I could use my muti hundered/thousand dollar machine designed to multi task to....milti task and alt-tab out of the game without it crashing forcing me to log back in through the SINGLE MOST EXORBANT LOGIN PROCESS OF ANY GAME I EVER PLAYED constantly. (Seriously, I can double click my icon for Diablo 3 and be killing monsters in under 30 seconds. Pol/ffxi login system is rediculous).

Players have good ideas and fix broken games every friggin day. There are a laundry list of games where players have cheated by technicality, but improved the gamer experience tobthe point that it extends the life of a game by years and even decades, then the company makes a sequel WITH those mods built in because they are so popular. There are thousands of windower people that would consider if not outright quit if they shut windower down. The fact that they took some 6years to even have a vanilla windowed game mode is atrocious, but I guess some people will eat sh*t and like it if that's what the designers shove at them.

Before this gets taken out of context: this is to refute the point that blankets "all cheating is bad and it kills games". Some Cheating HELPS and saves otherwise dead games. Not all cheating. Some cheating does and has killed games. Its a gun. Sometimes they save people. Sometimes they kill people. Sometimes they are used to make an army to protect the country. Sometimes they are used in genocide. Its a tool who's value is derived by the people who use them and their motives.

The only thing black and white about cheating is that everything not from the dev team is cheating. That distinction is not in question. Just like the only thing black and white about guns is that they can kill people. That's so 'duh' it doesn't warrant saying. But if you are looking at alright and wrong, fair, morals, justification or anything else, they are tools that can be used for anything and there its all grey.

Also, I'll make a deal with any poster on the side of ALL CHEATING IS WRONG camp. Make a post on official forums calling for the dismantling or banning of all people using windower in any form and I will happily reply that I am an avid user of windower and will promptly stop handing over my money if windower is killed or they begin enforcing bans based on its use because its true (The exception obviously if they added many of the windower functions to the game and THEN enforced the windower ban. I'd still play then). This 'cheat' has improved the experience of thousands that many would simply quit without it at this point.
____________________________
Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#295 Jul 05 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
308 posts
Quote:
I am an avid user of windower and will promptly stop handing over my money if windower is killed or they begin enforcing bans based on its use because its true (The exception obviously if they added many of the windower functions to the game and THEN enforced the windower ban. I'd still play then).


Fully agree.
#296 Jul 05 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
Prrsha wrote:

To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.


I did not reply with my other response because your seemingly simple solution of posting on SE official forums actually does quite a good job of clouding the point of this thread in a very complex way. I will not address whether or not the SE official forums would accomplish what you intend such posts to do if we assume that information was put there.

You are confusing two issues:

(1) whether or not actions violate the EULA
(2) whether or not people are okay with that

You and the rest of the people of your opinion which from my own, extremely limited exposure is about 10 in this thread and the game, care a lot about both of those things.

The people who I have had exposure to that would violate the EULA fall into two categories:

(A) those who would do it because they simply don't care at all about the EULA;
(B) those who would do it in limited circumstances because of poor game design.

Again, my very limited exposure to about 200 people who would violate the EULA, indicates more than 195 of them are in category (B) only, rather than (A). These people really don't care about the opinions of the people like you and are not trying to convince you of anything except for their reasons under (B). In comparison, you and the people like you are trying to convince them of things that are already a given, such as (1).

If your implied future outcome is that this will eventually involve mass banning, we have contradictory evidence of that. On the one hand we had server side manipulation with salvage duping, which resulted in mass banning. This had nothing to even to do with using anything but vanilla FFXI. I'm not sure how this evidence is relevant except that people were banned for using a built in function of the game. So this evidence actually supports an opposite (not mine though) opinion of yours that doing (1) is okay. In fact, following the EULA, may not be ok! Unless of course you can read the mindset of the eventual interpreter of the EULA.

Then we have the evidence that very little people were banned for violating the EULA during almost a decade of cheating at HNMs using bots and other tactics designed to claim on pop/assist with claim on pop. This is why we have a large portion of people, at least that I have had exposure to (which I take as a % of all servers), who are in category (B). This evidence supports my position, and my only position, which is that I understand the mindset of (B) and I will not try to convince them that they should have a different mindset.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 2:49pm by TheBarrister
____________________________
Carbuncle


#297 Jul 05 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
***
1,137 posts
Prrsha wrote:

...
I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced.
...


Geez, how many Jews, gypsies, and gays were turned over to the authorities because of this mentality - after all, they broke Germany's EULA by being jewish / gay / a gypsie.

EDIT: I know I know I know, the Nazi references are cliche. I just get so irritated by people when they play the "I dont agree to this" then offer their backsides to their "superiors", actually applauding them when they enforce the same actions "they dont agree with." Yech. How mindlessly apathetic.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 3:12pm by ManifestOfKujata
____________________________
Manifest, Valefor
BST/PLD/COR/BRD/WAR/THF/SMN/BLM/WHM 99
RDM/SCH/DNC/NIN/WAR/SAM/RNG 49
PUP 30, BLU 16

Maniken, Valefor
WHM/DRG/BRD/MNK/RDM/WAR/BLM 99
SCH/NIN/SAM/BST 49
BLU 16

Linkshell: ChaoticUnion

Sozu Rogberry(pre Thf Knife patch): 0/49 ><
#298 Jul 05 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,286 posts
You just lost the argument you nitwit.
____________________________
Server: Midgardsormr
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage

IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#299 Jul 05 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,414 posts
This is SE when someone posts a complaint about NeoNyzul on the official forums.
____________________________
Aliekber
RDM BLU SCH DRG PLD BLM NIN WHM
Linkshell: CrimsonMercenaries Server: Carbamesh

Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Human (?) females look ugly.
Post in /K/ where the orbital laser system is now online.
#300 Jul 05 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
9,191 posts
Can I just say that the majority of those of us who are uncomfortable with people cheating neo-nyzul (well me and most of the reasonable people who feel that way) don't give a feck about windower?

Use long macros away! Honestly - if I could get the resolution to look less crappy with windower and had the foggiest idea how to use spellcast I'd be all over it.

There's a pretty big difference in my mind between hacking dats with the express purpose of foiling the intentions behind an event and hacking dats so your mithra is wearing a rastafarian hat. Just like there is a difference between using long macros that would be legal if the game supported long macros and flee hacking, or seeing through walls or making invisible monsters visible.

/shrugs

The fundamental difference I think between both reasonable halves of this argument is that one side thinks they aren't hurting anyone - and the other side thinks "gee, this really isn't fair, cause SE is going to make new events suck even more if they think people are getting 15/15 on NNI way faster than they intended without hacks, so I'm going to be faced with the choice of opting out of even more content and falling behind on top notch gear, or breaking principles I want to stay true to."
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky
#301 Jul 05 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
12,361 posts
ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Prrsha wrote:

...
I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced.
...


Geez, how many Jews, gypsies, and gays were turned over to the authorities because of this mentality - after all, they broke Germany's EULA by being jewish / gay / a gypsie.

EDIT: I know I know I know, the Nazi references are cliche. I just get so irritated by people when they play the "I dont agree to this" then offer their backsides to their "superiors", actually applauding them when they enforce the same actions "they dont agree with." Yech. How mindlessly apathetic.

Edited, Jul 5th 2012 3:12pm by ManifestOfKujata


Surprised it took this long to hit Godwin's Law.
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 149 All times are in CDT
klausneck, Zaredx, Anonymous Guests (147)