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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#52 Jun 22 2012 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I just make sure I myself play with integrity, and if the cheaters want to cheat, fine. I have my own personal goals that may not seem as cool as a Thaumas coat or whatever, but they work for me.
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#53 Jun 22 2012 at 7:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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KodoReturns wrote:
Not to defend the cheaters, but if it was simply "hard content with rare rewards" then it wouldn't be an issue, the problem is that regardless of how skilled you are, the randomness is gonna screw you over 49 out of 50 times. It's a slap in the face when it's basically "Wow, you guys are very skilled, coordinated, have excellent strategies, and have made logical decisions for the entire duration of this event.... but, the coin-flip landed on tails, so you lose."

That's not even the terrible part of it though, using the random-factor to create artifical rarity is more-or-less the same thing as just giving the gear a terrible drop rate. The problem is that people can cheat to get around it, and the devs seem unwilling to adjust anything about it. So in essence, their method of simulating "rarity" does nothing more than punish the players that don't cheat.


I covered this in the post you responded to, but you didn't quote that part for whatever reason. It IS a terribly designed event and there's no excuse for it being so overtuned and unbalanced. Trust me, I despise hardcore events and purposefully impossible goals. I'd rather have events balanced around the common player. The hardcores are just going to find a way to breeze through everything ASAP by hook or by crook, so the grinds and artificial difficulties are wasted on them anyway.

The event should be changed so that cheating isn't necessary, and the rewards and their distribution shouldn't be adjusted as a result. Would that lead to everyone getting 15/15 gear in short order? Possibly, but I have NO problem with that. I'd go get it myself if I thought it was obtainable, and don't give a rarab's rear if everyone else has it too.

The thing is, people cheating will never lead to this and could make things worse. Granted SE may never change Neo-Nyzul for the better or will only do so after it's largely irrelevant, but surely what people are doing now isn't helping. The cheating has to stop one way or another, and the cheaters aren't going to stop themselves because they just don't give a crap about anything but personal prestige or +whatever to their stats. It's a shame they can't expend just a little energy telling SE what's wrong with the event, but they probably feel it's fine as long as they can get the end result they want somehow even if it's dishonestly. It's all justified in their minds. But, back to my point, how is SE ever going to learn if we keep sending them the wrong message?
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#54 Jun 22 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Camiie wrote:
KodoReturns wrote:
Not to defend the cheaters, but if it was simply "hard content with rare rewards" then it wouldn't be an issue, the problem is that regardless of how skilled you are, the randomness is gonna screw you over 49 out of 50 times. It's a slap in the face when it's basically "Wow, you guys are very skilled, coordinated, have excellent strategies, and have made logical decisions for the entire duration of this event.... but, the coin-flip landed on tails, so you lose."

That's not even the terrible part of it though, using the random-factor to create artifical rarity is more-or-less the same thing as just giving the gear a terrible drop rate. The problem is that people can cheat to get around it, and the devs seem unwilling to adjust anything about it. So in essence, their method of simulating "rarity" does nothing more than punish the players that don't cheat.


I covered this in the post you responded to, but you didn't quote that part for whatever reason. It IS a terribly designed event and there's no excuse for it being so overtuned and unbalanced. Trust me, I despise hardcore events and purposefully impossible goals. I'd rather have events balanced around the common player. The hardcores are just going to find a way to breeze through everything ASAP by hook or by crook, so the grinds and artificial difficulties are wasted on them anyway.

The event should be changed so that cheating isn't necessary, and the rewards and their distribution shouldn't be adjusted as a result. Would that lead to everyone getting 15/15 gear in short order? Possibly, but I have NO problem with that. I'd go get it myself if I thought it was obtainable, and don't give a rarab's rear if everyone else has it too.

The thing is, people cheating will never lead to this and could make things worse. Granted SE may never change Neo-Nyzul for the better or will only do so after it's largely irrelevant, but surely what people are doing now isn't helping. The cheating has to stop one way or another, and the cheaters aren't going to stop themselves because they just don't give a crap about anything but personal prestige or +whatever to their stats. It's a shame they can't expend just a little energy telling SE what's wrong with the event, but they probably feel it's fine as long as they can get the end result they want somehow even if it's dishonestly. It's all justified in their minds. But, back to my point, how is SE ever going to learn if we keep sending them the wrong message?

The problem is, the players keep trying to send them the right message, they just ignore it.

The players have tried tried to appeal to the devs regarding imbalances in just about every game event, yet very rarely receive a favorable response. How often have the official forums (and before that, the poorly advertised complaint/suggestion page on the official site) been blown up with imbalances and issues regarding events only to be rebuked with "it's working as intended" or "we have no changes in mind" or "we'll look into it" or "we hear your complaint, but that would be difficult to address?" Whether you cheat, tough it out, or abandon the content entirely, that's more or less standard ops for S-E, and the neglect gets kind of old.

Some people reach a point where they say "Well f***k it then, I'll just do what I want."

Edited, Jun 22nd 2012 6:35am by SunriderRagnarok
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#55 Jun 22 2012 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's a shame they can't expend just a little energy telling SE what's wrong with the event,


It's been done, they don't care.

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The problem is, the players keep trying to send them the right message, they just ignore it.

The players have tried tried to appeal to the devs regarding imbalances in just about every game event, yet very rarely receive a favorable response. How often have the official forums (and before that, the poorly advertised complaint/suggestion page on the official site) been blown up with imbalances and issues regarding events only to be rebuked with "it's working as intended" or "we have no changes in mind" or "we'll look into it" or "we hear your complaint, but that would be difficult to address?" Whether you cheat, tough it out, or abandon the content entirely, that's more or less standard ops for S-E, and the neglect gets kind of old.

Some people reach a point where they say "Well f***k it then, I'll just do what I want."


Bingo

Edited, Jun 22nd 2012 9:47am by Fynlar
#56 Jun 22 2012 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
SunriderRagnarok wrote:

The problem is, the players keep trying to send them the right message, they just ignore it.

The players have tried tried to appeal to the devs regarding imbalances in just about every game event, yet very rarely receive a favorable response. How often have the official forums (and before that, the poorly advertised complaint/suggestion page on the official site) been blown up with imbalances and issues regarding events only to be rebuked with "it's working as intended" or "we have no changes in mind" or "we'll look into it" or "we hear your complaint, but that would be difficult to address?" Whether you cheat, tough it out, or abandon the content entirely, that's more or less standard ops for S-E, and the neglect gets kind of old.

Some people reach a point where they say "Well f***k it then, I'll just do what I want."

Edited, Jun 22nd 2012 6:35am by SunriderRagnarok



The problem with this line of reasoning that even in areas where these players do not even need to cheat they still will. In the past and even now, Talk le-olde nyzul. I have never used film mode(My computer hates unofficial windower with a passion) and have played on a consule for 80% of my time on this game. With all the cheats windower people do have, I am often the first to find a lamp nm etc etc. Simply becuase after a 100 levels of this event and so many static changes I started to remember lay outs and notice patterns. And without such assistance I lead a successful static Would it be faster if we had someone with film mode? Oh yeah. But I can stand here and say it wasn't needed but people still used it becuase they rather not take the chance of loosing 1 run. People still used it, people still cheat, people always will. As other have said when people cheat in a videogame all they are doing is cheating themselves.No matter what the circumstance it isn't helping and while square hasn't shown a quick response to all our wails they have shown in recent years that they do listen. It may be at a snails rate they react. But they do. And people cheating in neo nyzul is just making this process even slower for their own sake.
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#57 Jun 22 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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After I joined my current static it took us 4 weeks (4 runs each week) to get to floor 100 first time (it died with 10 secs on the clock, lost the loot but got the KI). According to friend they had been at it for 2 months before I joined, without ever reaching 100, so that's (8+4)x4 = 48 runs to get to 100 once. Then we started using powder boots. 2 weeks later we got to 100 once (and timed out on boss). More powder boots (instead of 3-4 pairs everyone got 7+) and war leaving, we replaced him with drg (well, I went from sch to drg and we got new sch), the obvious benefit of which is being able to use movement+12% without losing feet slot, and a week later we beat the floor 100 boss. Fast forward a few weeks and lots of strategy (stuff like at intersection so and so goes east, so and so goes west etc.) and we actually beat floor 100 twice within 4 runs (okay, we did get 1 and 2 free floors, respectively).

Practice doesn't make perfect with this event, but it does make a big difference. ^_^ (sadly it is still a lot about luck, my group only averages 15-17 jumps so need to get a little better than average sized jumps)
#58 Jun 22 2012 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sure most groups didn't bother even with fillmode for NQ Nyzul because there simply wasn't any need for any kind of trickery like that to make it doable. Unless your group consisted of a bunch of retarded monkeys, doing 5 floors was almost always pathetically easy unless the game threw you the rare curveball of something like white magic restriction on a floor where you really need some white magic to be cast. I'm sure that the level of cheating done in NQ Nyzul comes nowhere even CLOSE to the amount that HQ Nyzul sees on a regular basis.

The only "challenge" of NQ Nyzul was the drop rates, which no cheat could get around (other than the "Salvage dupe" method, which I seem to remember hearing that could be adapted to work in Nyzul as well, but not certain on that... I never even knew such a duping method existed until the mass bannings occurred)
#59 Jun 22 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Default
Fynlar wrote:
I'm sure most groups didn't bother even with fillmode for NQ Nyzul because there simply wasn't any need for any kind of trickery like that to make it doable. Unless your group consisted of a bunch of retarded monkeys, doing 5 floors was almost always pathetically easy unless the game threw you the rare curveball of something like white magic restriction on a floor where you really need some white magic to be cast. I'm sure that the level of cheating done in NQ Nyzul comes nowhere even CLOSE to the amount that HQ Nyzul sees on a regular basis.

The only "challenge" of NQ Nyzul was the drop rates, which no cheat could get around (other than the "Salvage dupe" method, which I seem to remember hearing that could be adapted to work in Nyzul as well, but not certain on that... I never even knew such a duping method existed until the mass bannings occurred)



Totally not getting the point again. The point is people that cheat like this will cheat anyways. Weather its film mode in nq nyzul. Clipping through buecidine becuase they cant be assed to walk. Or something as minor as speed hacking just to get sedna to a safe spot. All of which can easily be done without cheating all things cheater have done and I have personally witnessed becuase they are to @#%^ing lazy or cannot be bothered with the SLIM POSSIBILITY of @#%^ing up.
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#60 Jun 22 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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I play with a static group, we don't cheat, and laughed a lot when Salvage bans happened. We've beat floor 100 3 times now, we average about 1 in 20 runs, and even then it's always down to the last 30 seconds and pure luck.

Note: This is with 4 relics and dual scholars.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2012 10:57am by Toioiz
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#61 Jun 22 2012 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
The problem is, the players keep trying to send them the right message, they just ignore it.

The players have tried tried to appeal to the devs regarding imbalances in just about every game event, yet very rarely receive a favorable response. How often have the official forums (and before that, the poorly advertised complaint/suggestion page on the official site) been blown up with imbalances and issues regarding events only to be rebuked with "it's working as intended" or "we have no changes in mind" or "we'll look into it" or "we hear your complaint, but that would be difficult to address?" Whether you cheat, tough it out, or abandon the content entirely, that's more or less standard ops for S-E, and the neglect gets kind of old.

Some people reach a point where they say "Well f***k it then, I'll just do what I want."


The thing is, we don't do it enough. It's the same few people posting over and over again on the official forums with hardly any likes. If people really want to send a message they need to leave the confines of Alla and BG and get their hands dirty in the cesspool for a while. It takes a lot to get SE's attention and even more to get them to move in the right direction on something. The playerbase is barely doing anything. We're effectively saying, "This sucks" waiting five seconds for a response, then jumping straight to the cheats. Not that all cheaters want a change, but I realize that some wouldn't cheat if they felt they had a workable alternative.

SE is to blame for this horrid event, but we are still part of the problem if we're effectively remaining silent or cheating to win.
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#62 Jun 22 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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This is all on SE. They've got a long running track recording of doing @#%^ all when the playerbase brings up an issue. Why should the playerbase wait for SE to spend another decade deciding they're not going to address the issue? If the playerbase has devised a method of mitigating the issue and SE isn't going to address the issue at all, then there is absolutely no reason the playerbase shouldn't do what they can to deal with the problem themselves.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2012 4:03pm by cidbahamut
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#63 Jun 22 2012 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Totally not getting the point again. The point is people that cheat like this will cheat anyways.


Which I've already said above in an earlier post, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me.

The fact remains, NQ Nyzul had far fewer cheating problems. You did not see people fleehacking or running through walls or whatever all the time there, because it wasn't necessary.
#64 Jun 22 2012 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Totally not getting the point again. The point is people that cheat like this will cheat anyways.


Which I've already said above in an earlier post, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me.

The fact remains, NQ Nyzul had far fewer cheating problems. You did not see people fleehacking or running through walls or whatever all the time there, because it wasn't necessary.



You didn't see it becuase an event didn't make players who previously would GM people the second they saw someone do that look the other way for the sake of gear. So now people are doing it openly instead of only with other like minded people who wouldn't rat them out.
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#65 Jun 22 2012 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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You didn't see it becuase an event didn't make players who previously would GM people the second they saw someone do that look the other way for the sake of gear. So now people are doing it openly instead of only with other like minded people who wouldn't rat them out.


I've been playing this game long enough to know that doing such a thing is pointless anyway. They will either have nothing happen to them, or just get a light slap on the wrist if anything. I've reported several cheaters over the years; other than the obvious RMT whose names shuffle over time anyway, all of them were still around afterward and still doing the same things I reported them for.

The past few GM calls I've made for various things, I've not even gotten a response from an actual GM, just some scripted Help Desk message as a response. I can't even remember the last time I've sent/received a message directly to/from an actual GM.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2012 10:00pm by Fynlar
#66 Jun 22 2012 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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jtftaru wrote:
What is the @#%^ing point of cheating in a game like this? The only person you're cheating is yourself.

The official rules are a bulltsh*t, frustrating challenge. Making up your own rules to make the event feasible and fun isn't cheating yourself - it's highly rewarding.

You sound like the type of person that supports authority on principle, no matter how sh*tty it is.
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#67 Jun 25 2012 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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For people who have beaten this, what all is expected of a scholar in Nyzul Isle Uncharted? I'm thinking of leveling my SCH up in order to join a NIU group, but I'm uncertain of what all I'll be looking at.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 8:41am by shanecf
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#68 Jun 25 2012 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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shanecf wrote:
For people who have beaten this, what all is expected of a scholar in Nyzul Isle Uncharted? I'm thinking of leveling my SCH up in order to join a NIU group, but I'm uncertain of what all I'll be looking at.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 8:41am by shanecf

At the very least 420+ enhancing (that's when magic haste caps with haste spell on). Preferably 450+ and 500 is the ultimate goal to shoot for (more regain and more regen with more skill). If you're the "rune sch", that is, the one that sits at rune of transfer, that's all you need. Rune sch's job is overall very easy one, you do embrava on your turn, perpetuance haste your two assigned melees and then throw buff-ga (phalanx-ga, enspell-ga etc.) if you get a chance right after jump before melees run off.

If you're the sch who runs with the melees, then you're going to need more gear. Cure potency set, sublimation set, refresh idle set (when sublimation is on recast), dark magic set (aspir <3) and nuking set. Enfeeble set doesn't hurt to have if you need to, say, crowd control around a lamp or get "do not destroy gears" floor but they're in the way. You also must have movement speed+ (desert boots are ok) that you can somewhat keep up. If the group is any good, melees will be non-stop fleeing with powder boots. As a sidenote, I did 2 runs with pick up last weekend (had leftover tags), first run we only got 10 jumps and timed out at 68 or such, then melees listened to reason and got lots of powder boots and we made it to 93 with 16 jumps. :) Powder boots are awesome!
#69 Jun 25 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Should have just let you enter. Hit lamp. Game /random 1-50. You get 50 your receive KI for 1 piece of 100 fl gear. Same result in rarity. Just as luck based as current event. Within range of both hardcore and casuals. Perfect event!

Luck a sh*t event makes. Luck determining drops is fine. Luck deciding if you win or loose is BULLsh*t. Win/loss should be based on ability, coordination, etc. When groups of super skilled, inhumanly geared, coordinated (voice chat) players can't beat an event without star aligning luck, its a problem. To those fighting for the casuals, wtf kinda event requires 3rd party voice chat, 1setuop (schx2, redonculous geared to the teeth ddx4), not to mention actually being a superstar level player on top of the gear, and still needs lottery level luck. Where does the casual fit in at all? Worst event design in history of ffxi. Luck based events are NOT FUN. For anyone.

As for 'tell SE' check every forum for the last 10 years. IF they respond, its excuses. If they do anything its 2-5 YEARS late. You act like no one ever thought of the brilliant idea to tell SE. Were not making a big enough fuss? Its now the players fault SE isn't listening to us? Have you seen the sh*t storms every few months over everything from billing issues to balance to content? Im sorry but screw you. Players have screamed until hoarse at SE for YEARS. Of all things we dint bitch enough ? THATS the answer to the million dollar question? Bull.

You saw the throngs of players BEGGING for 'play as a monster' right? SE always aims their development at what we post about obviously. Rdm is useful! Smn got that new avatar they were promised 5years ago! Bet has more charmable mobs! Console people dont DC after VW! Everyone is happy with their billing systems! SE listens! All you have to do is gobto official forums and ask and it shall be given unto you! We just haven't asked! /Facepalm

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 3:54pm by Banalaty
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#70 Jun 25 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Rune SCH:
You should be in charge of accession buffs. Your job is to always have accession and sometimes perpetuance up before you port up. The worst thing you can do is lose precious seconds using your stratagems at the start of a new floor. If regen doesn't need to be refreshed then you should sneak your pt. In any case, you should be able to keep haste up on at least 2 and hopefully 3 of the DDS. Haste one at the rune then follow them and try to get 1-2 more. Even though you're hovering around the rune, you can still contribute more than just porting up. Always be ready to pop sprinter's drink on the off chance of an code lamp. Your goal is to take as much of the responsibilities from the other SCH as possible. When you get specified enemies floor with rats, be very mindful of the freeze. For whatever reason, it's very easy to freeze especially if you are near the rune.

Scouting SCH:
Buy a Lamiabane or some kind of ranged attack. You'll need it for gear floors. The sets mentioned in the previous post are all important but I personally never find myself running out of mp with sublimation and convert so I think a dark set is less important. While DDs are killing stuff (and if they don't need your support) you should do your best to scout ahead and identify any mobs further on or dead ends. If necessary be prepared to pull stuff back to the group. I find myself riding my stratagem charges sometimes so try to shift the buffing responsibilities to the other SCH as much as possible.

Also, you'll want to embrava twice. This ensures that you'll be able to keep it up full time for the entire run. Especially on the first embrava of the run, make sure you use penury. Another thing to remember is that even though it seems like your job is simple, you can definitely save precious seconds here and there by becoming familiar with the job, the raid, and what you can do. You can definitely get better with time and practice.

Hope that helps. My SCH has 501 enhancing but I've been phasing myself off SCH for our runs to come DD because we generally find it's easier to integrate a new SCH into the group then a very good DD. At least for us it's been like that. Last night we had 2 18 jump runs and 1 16 jump run resulting in 1 win. It's good fun and I wish you luck.
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#71 Jun 25 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
Should have just let you enter. Hit lamp. Game /random 1-50. You get 50 your receive KI for 1 piece of 100 fl gear. Same result in rarity. Just as luck based as current event. Within range of both hardcore and casuals. Perfect event!

Luck a sh*t event makes. Luck determining drops is fine. Luck deciding if you win or loose is BULLsh*t. Win/loss should be based on ability, coordination, etc. When groups of super skilled, inhumanly geared, coordinated (voice chat) players can't beat an event without star aligning luck, its a problem. To those fighting for the casuals, wtf kinda event requires 3rd party voice chat, 1setuop (schx2, redonculous geared to the teeth ddx4), not to mention actually being a superstar level player on top of the gear, and still needs lottery level luck. Where does the casual fit in at all? Worst event design in history of ffxi. Luck based events are NOT FUN. For anyone.


We don't disagree here. The event sucks as bad as anything SE has ever produced, and that says a lot. I did it a few times, decided it was total crap and never went back and I won't unless it drastically changes for the better. I HATE luck based content anyway, and the more that's stacked on the more I hate it. Nyzul Isle is flat out awful in every conceivable way, and if I had a hand in producing it I'd be incurably sick too.

Quote:
As for 'tell SE' check every forum for the last 10 years. IF they respond, its excuses. If they do anything its 2-5 YEARS late. You act like no one ever thought of the brilliant idea to tell SE. Were not making a big enough fuss? Its now the players fault SE isn't listening to us? Have you seen the sh*t storms every few months over everything from billing issues to balance to content? Im sorry but screw you. Players have screamed until hoarse at SE for YEARS. Of all things we dint bitch enough ? THATS the answer to the million dollar question? Bull.


Have you seen the US and EU official forums? There's barely a blip of activity anywhere on there. Have you seen the feedback forum here? It's dead, buried, and decomposing. You can say "screw you" to me all you want, but yeah we are a very silent player base. Are we at fault? No, SE is 100% at fault. Should we have to complain to get good content? No, but we do. Do they listen like they should? No. Do we do enough to counter that? No.

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You saw the throngs of players BEGGING for 'play as a monster' right? SE always aims their development at what we post about obviously. Rdm is useful! Smn got that new avatar they were promised 5years ago! Bet has more charmable mobs! Console people dont DC after VW! Everyone is happy with their billing systems! SE listens! All you have to do is go to official forums and ask and it shall be given unto you! We just haven't asked! /Facepalm


What I'm saying is if you want any chance at all of things being fixed you have to completely inundate them. Hell you might need a PW type scandal to get them to make a move. Will the event be fixed if everyone demands it? Probably not. Will it be fixed if you just cheat and sit here and angrily justify it? No chance at all. I'd rather take the probably not than the no chance at all.

You know what I do see on the official forums besides the few people complaining about Neo-Nyzul? I also see people defending it and demanding it NOT be changed. They think it's just fine for whatever reason. Probably because they can cheat2win and still come out looking like a boss. You think SE doesn't listen? I bet they listen to those people unless they're completely drowned out and the opposing posts get 100s of likes. That doesn't happen. The status quo is maintained.

But hey it's fine. Just sit there and turn on your cheats and get your gear. It's cool. SE will probably see Neo-Nyzul as a rousing success and give us more events just like it ASAP! Come up with all the justifications you like. The "sticking it to The Man" ones are especially good. Just please don't come here and complain when The Man decides to stick it back. I really don't want to hear it because you know it's the consequence to your actions.

Here's kind of a general question. Are the people who don't do Neo-Nyzul because it's not fun or do it but without cheats the stupid ones?
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#72 Jun 25 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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As for 'tell SE' check every forum for the last 10 years. IF they respond, its excuses. If they do anything its 2-5 YEARS late. You act like no one ever thought of the brilliant idea to tell SE. Were not making a big enough fuss? Its now the players fault SE isn't listening to us? Have you seen the sh*t storms every few months over everything from billing issues to balance to content? Im sorry but screw you. Players have screamed until hoarse at SE for YEARS. Of all things we dint bitch enough ? THATS the answer to the million dollar question? Bull.
Have you seen the US and EU official forums? There's barely a blip of activity anywhere on there. Have you seen the feedback forum here? It's dead, buried, and decomposing. You can say "screw you" to me all you want, but yeah we are a very silent player base. Are we at fault? No, SE is 100% at fault. Should we have to complain to get good content? No, but we do. Do they listen like they should? No. Do we do enough to counter that? No.


There's something I personally see often, particularly when talking RDM, is a resistance from our fellow players. Either the issue itself isn't an issue, thus in no need of attention. Or the proposed solution disagrees with their sensibilities and things just go downhill from there. The second is the more problematic, as not everyone can do a good job articulating either an issue or possible solution. Occasionally I've received PMs or in-game tells thanking my own commentary in the past on things, either because they couldn't put their thoughts to words, I did it better than they believed they could have, or they might've just been afraid to step into the proverbial shark tank and get torn apart by angry vocalists. And I'm quite sure some reading this are rolling their eyes by now because they've been so personally jaded against me because I have fought their own, often irrational, perspectives. As a loose summary of my stances on things, I like to remain casual friendly while encouraging choice without punishment for said choices. This philosophy manifests itself rather poorly in Neo Nyzul, and I'm sure others have seen me scolding other endgame systems with this mindset, too.

In the end, I can't blame people for feeling jaded, though. Even as someone who used this site's Feedback section often while devoting a lot of personal interest to RDM and its issues long, long before whispers of the community even thinking the job "dead" came to light, there's a whole lot of pissing into the wind as far as SE is concerned. Can we play the Tanaka card? Maybe. PS2 limitations? Doubtful. Blame it all on XIV? May work to a degree. There are lots of reasons to suggest why something hasn't happened, but we can't exactly control the dev end. What we can do is try harder not to be dicks to each other in the process. And that includes subversive trolling techniques some have adopted to try and get around moderation or exploit it. You know who you are and reading between the lines isn't that difficult.

Edited, Jun 25th 2012 5:46pm by Seriha
#73 Jun 25 2012 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is the longest NA thread on the official forums about it, and it has gotten over 24,000 views and over 500 posts:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0

I think they know we hate their event and have received (and promptly ignored) many suggestions on how to improve it.
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#74 Jun 25 2012 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
This is the longest NA thread on the official forums about it, and it has gotten over 24,000 views and over 500 posts:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0

I think they know we hate their event and have received (and promptly ignored) many suggestions on how to improve it.


Not enough and not from enough individuals. It's the same few over and over, and their backs aren't strong enough to carry everyone else And many of the posts there are from people defending it. Heck if that was all the response I was getting I wouldn't bother to change anything either.

I will say though, I'm sure it is much easier to fire up some cheats and .dat mods than try to fight for change. You even get sweet loot for it. Hey, I can see the appeal. I like sweet loot and I had lots of fun with Game Shark back in the day.

So, let's say I'm your friend and I'm good enough to handle Neo-Nyzul. Would you tell me it's worth the risk to do it with mods and cheats?
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#75 Jun 25 2012 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Let's see. I host the .dat swap that everyone uses for neo Nyzul on my pastebin and update it when it breaks. Durrr? Yes. Use it you self-righteous idiots. If you're as holy as you pretend to be, one moving violation for flee hacking isn't going to lose you your account, and one undetectable .dat swap certainly isn't going to lose you anything more than your high horse. It's not 2005. We aren't living in glorious anticipation of SE's impending fixes to the obviously lacking UI. We aren't spending our energy begging SE to fix ground kings.

SE is too blind to see problems and too incompetent to fix them. Fix it yourself. It isn't hard. If you want to take the same route as Ground Kings (<a year ago?) and the UI (still to come), feel free to try and talk it out with them. Personally, I'll adjust the difficulty until the event is fun and then do it.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:56am by Byrthnoth
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#76 Jun 26 2012 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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If people want a challenge that does not consist of artificially difficult tasks, then do not play a ten year old game with an outdated AI that has clearly met its limits.
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#77 Jun 26 2012 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Let's see. I host the .dat swap that everyone uses for neo Nyzul on my pastebin and update it when it breaks. Durrr? Yes. Use it you self-righteous idiots. If you're as holy as you pretend to be, one moving violation for flee hacking isn't going to lose you your account, and one undetectable .dat swap certainly isn't going to lose you anything more than your high horse. It's not 2005. We aren't living in glorious anticipation of SE's impending fixes to the obviously lacking UI. We aren't spending our energy begging SE to fix ground kings.


The venom from your response says much more than your post does. You're coming off as a self-righteous, holy crusader yourself. It's just that you're taking the vigilante approach to your crusade for justice and fairness.

Quote:
SE is too blind to see problems and too incompetent to fix them. Fix it yourself. It isn't hard. If you want to take the same route as Ground Kings (<a year ago?) and the UI (still to come), feel free to try and talk it out with them. Personally, I'll adjust the difficulty until the event is fun and then do it.


Fix? Adjust the difficulty? I think you're giving yourself a bit too much credit here. If you're justified in what you're doing, just call it what it is. You don't need a euphemism for it. "Neo-Nyzul is completely unfair and SE won't fix it, but damn if it doesn't have shiny loot, so I'm going to cheat to get it."
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#78 Jun 26 2012 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Sharain wrote:
[helpful information!]


detlef wrote:
[more helpful information!]


Thank you both very much. I really appreciate the knowledge. ^^

I think I might give it a go. But... going to cap enhancing magic first. (OH JOY, Empyreal Paradox here I come.)
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#79 Jun 26 2012 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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SCH actually gets to cheat with regard to enhancing skill... just by being lv99 and putting Light Arts on, you're already over the 400 mark needed for 5/tic regain on Embrava. With 8 enhancing merits, you're already at the 420 mark, if I'm not mistaken. To go beyond that, you need gear.

Leveling the skill itself is really mainly for the WHMs and BLMs out there.
#80 Jun 26 2012 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie, you really don't know Byrth well enough to make those judgments. You are getting too personal in your criticism. I don't see venom in Byrth's response. I do see some indignation. I can understand why he would take the insult personally, it is pointed at him.

Byrth is one of the smartest and laid back players I've talked to. He has put in alot of time and effort to discover and share helpful information with the online community. I have not seen him post negative or derogatory comments on other players. I haven't seen elitism, bad manners or bad attitude from Byrth over many posts on Zam, BG, and FFxiah forums.

I'm thankful for the work Byrth and other players have done to enrich the FFXI player community.

Nyzul 2.0 has flaws in it's design. I don't think there are many here to disagree with that. I think a few user interface changes to help in that event are no big deal. I have not actually made a run on the event yet, but I expect I'll use fillmode and I've downloaded Byrth's dat mod files. The UI trouble in FFXI has been ongoing for a long time. SE has made a few baby steps to improve it recently, but it is still insufficient.

I don't condone flee hacking, as it can damage the play quality for other players. I don't see it as a big deal in Nyzul however. Its not a competitive part of the game like claiming ground kings has been.

As far as the argument about it affecting how SE perceives the quality of Nyzul 2.0 and how to adjust it, I don't believe that argument has a leg to stand on. SE has made plenty of historical precedent as far as how quickly or responsive they will be to details like Nyzul 2.0.

I think most ppl who complain about those getting gear in Nyzul 2.0 are jealous and pay just as much credit to showing off gear as the ones who do brag that they have better gear and criticize those who don't. The only difference is who has it and who doesn't.
I also think alot of the players who get on a high-horse about it, would use the same tools in many cases. I think the difference would be technical know-how or willingness to learn how to use the tools.
but I'm just guessing, Anyone reading might know if they fit this or not.

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#81 Jun 26 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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What you see as rules, I see as bad event design. You see it as a violation of the sanctity of FFXI dats. I see it as fixing an error that made it past the test server. It's obviously not something SE intended, but to each his own. If my accomplishments in game come with an asterisk to you because I was playing "FFXI, Byrthnoth Edition" instead of SE's FFXI, then that's fine with me.

By the way, /InigoMontoya. Where do I come off as "feeling morally superior" above? I'm advising people to cheat in order to make an event reasonable. Earlier in the thread I outlined the various gradations of cheating and what their outcomes were. I'm not saying you have to cheat, but we should at least be realistic about the odds of winning without cheating. In the thread I linked on the official forums, I laid out several options that SE could pursue to fix Neo-Nyzul. I want to see the game get better. I put in my two cents. Now the ball is in SE's court. I'm too impatient to wait the years it will take for them to fix this, so I fixed it myself in the meantime and have made that fix freely available to others. I hope that I'm wrong and SE fixes it next patch, but I'm not holding my breath.

If you were honestly asking that question despite my earlier posts on the subject, then sorry. The answer is yes. If you bypass the order floor's "lamps are turning on" animation delay (via .dats) and use fillmode (default windower feature, //fillmode once to turn it on and //fillmode again to turn it off) with an excellent party composed of the right players and don't give up, you have a reasonable chance of winning and everything you've used is undetected by SE (as far as we know). It makes the event difficult and still luck based but more reasonable. I would like to see SE change the event so that it depends more on gear/skill (increase monster level, decrease distance to 100) or party coordination (give 1 minute TEs for successful MBs of a Level 3 Skillchain or something). Unfortunately, a decade of FFXI has taught me not to wait for SE to address obvious design flaws that stand between enjoyable gameplay and me.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 10:13am by Byrthnoth
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#82 Jun 26 2012 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Xilk wrote:
Camiie, you really don't know Byrth well enough to make those judgments. You are getting too personal in your criticism. I don't see venom in Byrth's response. I do see some indignation. I can understand why he would take the insult personally, it is pointed at him.


So calling me a self-righteous idiot isn't insulting and personal? He knows me well enough to make that claim? Oh well, different standards for different posters I guess. At least I haven't been scolded by the mods yet.

Quote:
Byrth is one of the smartest and laid back players I've talked to. He has put in alot of time and effort to discover and share helpful information with the online community. I have not seen him post negative or derogatory comments on other players. I haven't seen elitism, bad manners or bad attitude from Byrth over many posts on Zam, BG, and FFxiah forums.

I'm thankful for the work Byrth and other players have done to enrich the FFXI player community.


Why do you think I expected better from him than hacks, cheats, insults, and weak justifications? I appreciate all that he and others have done as well. Lord knows, when it comes to math and strategy I'm an abject failure. No one enjoys helpful information more than someone like me. I need all the help I can get.

Does it earn him a lot of respect? Sure, of course it does. I do have respect for him despite how it may seem. Does hacking his way through Neo-Nyzul invalidate everything he's done? No. Does everything he's done justify hacking his way through Neo-Nyzul or being so defensive about it? Not to me.

Quote:
Nyzul 2.0 has flaws in it's design. I don't think there are many here to disagree with that. I think a few user interface changes to help in that event are no big deal. I have not actually made a run on the event yet, but I expect I'll use fillmode and I've downloaded Byrth's dat mod files. The UI trouble in FFXI has been ongoing for a long time. SE has made a few baby steps to improve it recently, but it is still insufficient.


Is the opacity of walls really a UI issue? They're not supposed to be see-through. And the lamps are supposed to look the same, and you're supposed to communicate to figure out what you're dealing with. The event is horribly flawed, the UI is primitive, and no one hates lamp floors more than me. I have never once disagreed with the idea that Neo-Nyzul is a sorry excuse for content. I only disagree in how the playerbase is handling it.

Quote:
I don't condone flee hacking, as it can damage the play quality for other players. I don't see it as a big deal in Nyzul however. Its not a competitive part of the game like claiming ground kings has been.


I think it becomes a problem when people who can't or won't cheat have to compete with people who do for party/ally spots. The stuff they obtain doesn't exist in a vacuum. It does have some affect on the game world.

Quote:
As far as the argument about it affecting how SE perceives the quality of Nyzul 2.0 and how to adjust it, I don't believe that argument has a leg to stand on. SE has made plenty of historical precedent as far as how quickly or responsive they will be to details like Nyzul 2.0.


I think it will have some bearing on how they'll create future content. Whether that's good or bad remains to be seen. If they see that there's more Neo-Nyzul 100 gear out there than they intended how will they react to that? Will they make the next uber set from the next event even harder to obtain? Can you not see SE doing something like that?

Quote:
I think most ppl who complain about those getting gear in Nyzul 2.0 are jealous and pay just as much credit to showing off gear as the ones who do brag that they have better gear and criticize those who don't. The only difference is who has it and who doesn't.
I also think alot of the players who get on a high-horse about it, would use the same tools in many cases. I think the difference would be technical know-how or willingness to learn how to use the tools.
but I'm just guessing, Anyone reading might know if they fit this or not.


I'm no bastion of virtue, and I'm not immune to jealously, but this isn't me. I can't prove that to you, so you'll obviously believe what you want and there's nothing I can do about it. I have zero problem with people who can get gear from Neo-Nyzul or anywhere else legitimately. If I had problems with everyone who was better geared (or just plain better) than me I'd have problems with a whole heck of a lot of people and I don't.
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#83 Jun 26 2012 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see what the problem is.

SE refuses to fix sh*t, so players come up with fixes. This shouldn't be surprising or upsetting.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 10:45am by cidbahamut
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#84 Jun 26 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
cidbahamut wrote:
I don't see what the problem is.

SE refuses to fix sh*t, so players come up with fixes. This shouldn't be surprising or upsetting.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 10:45am by cidbahamut



The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

Forget people who are now compromising their own morals now using "Beaten and broken" as an excuse like fynlar.
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#85 Jun 26 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

That would be akin to sawing your own feet off because your elbow itches.

The problem here is SE dishing out sh*tty game design and not fixing it promptly after they've been called out on it. Nothing more and nothing less.
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#86 Jun 26 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
cidbahamut wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

That would be akin to sawing your own feet off because your elbow itches.

The problem here is SE dishing out sh*tty game design and not fixing it promptly after they've been called out on it. Nothing more and nothing less.


How is it any different from when they banned hundreds of people for salvage duping then waited several years to adjust the drop rate? I am not saying square is right, I am not saying nyzul a good event. I am saying much like Camile. Is that the player base is being as much of a pack of idiots about this as square is. At the end of the day it's square who decides how they want it this game to be played. Everything people are doing in nyzul is a clear violation.(Those utilizing the dat swaps and flee hacking) and the exact same thing was said about the salvage. "There is no way they ban anyone" yet once square said they were gonna do something about it 3 months later people were banned in mass, including people who "just happened to be there."
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#87 Jun 26 2012 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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The event sucks, so I just decided not to do it. I realize that no one in the game cares about the gear I have or the things I accomplish other than me, and I'm getting along just find with 24 more levels under my belt to play the game with.

I wasn't stupid enough to think that enough people would also skip the event. Enough that SE would have to change it to make it more realistic. I knew there's not enough patient people in this game. I can only do my part.

As for the people running around in their cheated-to-obtain Nyzul Isle gear, just as they don't care about any of the gear I have, I don't care about any of the gear they have. Cheating in Nyzul Isle to get gear is absolutely zero different than not being able to beat an NM because you're just not good enough or don't have enough good gear or help, so you cheat to beat it.

It's easy to justify any amount of cheating if you want to. "I only buy gil because I work too much irl and don't have time to farm." "I only flee hack through walls to mine because SE put too much aggro around the points." Doesn't make any of it right.
#88 Jun 26 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'm surprised to see community regulars come here and admit to cheating. And the excuses are not clever or noble, they are the same tired rationalizations used by cheaters since forever. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and one thoughtless act to destroy it.
#89 Jun 26 2012 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Problem with New Nyzul is that is is a Luck Based Mission

Salvage was also one. On salvage, the luck was simply on the SE Standard Drop Rates.

Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.

The whole design just makes cheating a whole lot more likely to happen.
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#90 Jun 26 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Here's my confession: via windower, I utilize ctrl+v in FFXI.
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#91 Jun 26 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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zellbaca wrote:
Here's my confession: via windower, I utilize ctrl+v in FFXI.

CRIMINAL!
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#92 Jun 26 2012 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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It's a matter of execution and plausibility.

Lamp .dats solve the problem of solving lamps. Lamps shouldn't be half the problem they are, but are instead a totally random cockblock. Literally a random punch in the dick to a decent run. Even if you know the solution ahead of time, you still have to spread out, figure out what sort of lamps you're dealing with and how many, and deal with both agro and menu time at each.

Lamps have always been the most f*cked up thing to put in a time-critical event like Nyzul, and when Neo-Nyzul has people breaking out Relics and Embrava because of even more expressed time-criticality, you can see exactly how and why people will say 'F*ck. That. Sh*t.'

The problem with lamps isn't even solved by having the .dat mods. They will still cock up a run 50% of the time when everyone has to find a lamp or their own lamp, and that 50% is when flee/clip hacks come into play.

90% of the cheating in Nyzul is because of the goddamn lamps.

Now, it's perfectly plausible to solve these lamps just as quickly with luck as if you had the .dat mods, and perfectly executable that everyone shows up at the right lamp at the right time. Unfortunately SE thinks this occurs with 'the right amount of luck' which is practically never.

This is why nobody with half a brain cares about these particular hacks in Neo-Nyzul. They're solving a broken-ass part of the game that SE is too stupid (Hanlon's Razor in full effect) to realize the absolute and crushing detriment of.

Nobody should care, because lamps are plain and simple bullsh*t.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:28pm by Raelix
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#93 Jun 26 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

The phrase "Self control" comes springing to mind. This whole subject and conversation reminds me eerily oh Phantasy Star online, which was absolutely murdered by people with the same mind set that eventually went out of control.

Also the longer this goes on the the more likely square will go after windower then adjusting nyzul.

That would be akin to sawing your own feet off because your elbow itches.

The problem here is SE dishing out sh*tty game design and not fixing it promptly after they've been called out on it. Nothing more and nothing less.

How is it any different from when they banned hundreds of people for salvage duping then waited several years to adjust the drop rate?

I think the difference is the size of the population. I don't remember if the big Salvage ban happened before either of the two rounds of server merges. But my guess is that this game had a larger population back then compared to right now. Banning the same amount of players now that they banned back then would have a greater impact today.

In addition to that, just think about what percentage of players likely were involved in shells that took advantage of the Salvage duping bug, and what percentage of players today use windower. We don't have accurate numbers of just how many players use windower. But it's probably a safe bet to say that a larger percentage of players today use windower compared to the percentage of players involved in the Salvage dupe scandal. Going after windower itself could wind up with a lot of collateral damage among players that use windower and have never even stepped foot into Neo-Nyzul.
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#94 Jun 26 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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You know what Windower does? Solves the bullsh*t of not being able to alt-tab in a Windows environment.

You know what Spellcast does? Solves the bullsh*t of people wanting 100% optimization but only having six lines per macro.

Here's the best one:
You know what Wikis do? Solve the bullsh*t of nothing in this game being guided in the least and quests being sometimes totally random.

These are all methods of 'cheating' that I at least feel are perfectly justified because they solve SE-endorsed bullsh*t. Lamp .dats are pushing it a little, but in the same vein: SE is quite honestly too incompetent or arrogant to see the problem that induces the cheating.

We've tried calling SE in all these cases, and it just doesn't get anything done, so we deal with it ourselves.

So if you're gonna come around and start decrying, criminalizing, and witchhunting for Lamp .dats you'd best get on your high-horse campaign against Windower, Spellcast, and even Wiki use too, because everyone else using these things feel they are for good reason despite being 'cheating'.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:53pm by Raelix
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#95 Jun 26 2012 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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TheKhory wrote:
Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.
I'd just like to point out that we never bring a THF to Neo-Nyzul. Yet when we hit boss floors, we almost* always see at least one drop and two pieces are more common. Unlike old Nyzul, the drop rate is actually pretty good- it's the problem of trying to get the 1 of 15 different pieces that you want is more of the problem. If you actually meant old Nyzul, then I take back my comment and agree with your statement.


*Almost only because even though I can't remember the last time there was no drop, I'm sure it has happened
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#96 Jun 26 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be less annoyed about "luck" if it was a trait like it was in FFX that you could actually see and augment.
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#97 Jun 26 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
TheKhory wrote:
Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.

I'd just like to point out that we never bring a THF to Neo-Nyzul. Yet when we hit boss floors, we almost* always see at least one drop and two pieces are more common. Unlike old Nyzul, the drop rate is actually pretty good- it's the problem of trying to get the 1 of 15 different pieces that you want is more of the problem. If you actually meant old Nyzul, then I take back my comment and agree with your statement.

*Almost only because even though I can't remember the last time there was no drop, I'm sure it has happened

Isn't it guaranteed for Neo Nyzul boss floors to have at least one drop? If everyone in the group already had the same piece of gear that the game decided to drop, I could see it appearing as if there was no drop (or that there was fewer drops than there actually should have been).
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#98 Jun 26 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
xypin wrote:
TheKhory wrote:
Nyzul adds insult to injury. Not only the drop rates are awful, but you are also completely dependent on luck to even complete it.

I'd just like to point out that we never bring a THF to Neo-Nyzul. Yet when we hit boss floors, we almost* always see at least one drop and two pieces are more common. Unlike old Nyzul, the drop rate is actually pretty good- it's the problem of trying to get the 1 of 15 different pieces that you want is more of the problem. If you actually meant old Nyzul, then I take back my comment and agree with your statement.

*Almost only because even though I can't remember the last time there was no drop, I'm sure it has happened
Isn't it guaranteed for Neo Nyzul boss floors to have at least one drop? If everyone in the group already had the same piece of gear that the game decided to drop, I could see it appearing as if there was no drop (or that there was fewer drops than there actually should have been).
Since I haven't recorded all ours drops, I was mostly covering my ass just in case it wasn't 100% for at least one piece.
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#99 Jun 26 2012 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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zellbaca wrote:
Here's my confession: via windower, I utilize ctrl+v in FFXI.


If only we could copy FROM FFXI also!! there are so many 'little things' which the UI lacks which REALLY add up.

I originally looked into windower so I could use the japanese IME with FFXI. and of course.. Windowed mode.. (SE's windowed mode sux like a Dyson!)
Then I saw a few other nifty plugins which just provided helpful information displayed on my screen so I didn't have to spam macro's to make decisions when to do something.
Then, I discovered spellcast's shorter commands for casting spells.. HALLELUJAH!
Lastly, it was the gear swapping element of spellcast which just made it much better! (Death to 6-line macros!)


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#100 Jun 26 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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TribalProphet wrote:

As for the people running around in their cheated-to-obtain Nyzul Isle gear, just as they don't care about any of the gear I have, I don't care about any of the gear they have. Cheating in Nyzul Isle to get gear is absolutely zero different than not being able to beat an NM because you're just not good enough or don't have enough good gear or help, so you cheat to beat it.


No. The fact that you said this shows you clearly know nothing about neo nyzul.
#101 Jun 26 2012 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
Raelix wrote:
You know what Windower does? Solves the bullsh*t of not being able to alt-tab in a Windows environment.

You know what Spellcast does? Solves the bullsh*t of people wanting 100% optimization but only having six lines per macro.

Here's the best one:
You know what Wikis do? Solve the bullsh*t of nothing in this game being guided in the least and quests being sometimes totally random.

These are all methods of 'cheating' that I at least feel are perfectly justified because they solve SE-endorsed bullsh*t. Lamp .dats are pushing it a little, but in the same vein: SE is quite honestly too incompetent or arrogant to see the problem that induces the cheating.

We've tried calling SE in all these cases, and it just doesn't get anything done, so we deal with it ourselves.

So if you're gonna come around and start decrying, criminalizing, and witchhunting for Lamp .dats you'd best get on your high-horse campaign against Windower, Spellcast, and even Wiki use too, because everyone else using these things feel they are for good reason despite being 'cheating'.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 12:53pm by Raelix



Tell me, what Rpg, MMO, ANY GAME IN EXISTANCE. Allows you to automatically program something to re-equip your character the second you preform an action to the gear you presetted for that action? Then allows you to set special conditions like weather and day effects?

Also why are you listing something officially recognize by square as a downfall of square?

The lamp thing is cheat. No different from if you programmed a game to show what ,mobs the fakes and what ones are real when they split. No different then reducing every mob in an area to a dot on a floor besides the nm your looking for. It's the same @#%^ing rationality people used for claim bots and everything like that. "Square made a sh*tty game by making a mob that pops only once every 3-5 days and only one of them." It wasn't right then, it isn't right now.
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