Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
we are still playing?
Speak for yourself.
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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow
Speak for yourself.
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svlyons wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
Yeah, I'd like a kraken club. Should I dupe hack to get one because the odds of one dropping in a BCNM are low?
You can sell off a Kraken Club when you're done using it. You can't sell off Nyzul gear. If you and a bunch of other people duped some piece of R/Ex gear, it wouldn't impact me. If I was a K Club owner, and you and a bunch of other people duped K Club, I would probably get upset because the value of my K Club would plummet as a result.
The argument that the item is not a rare/ex is a a stupid one. Heck, I bet you could prob sell the Nyzul gear to NPCs for gil, but I am not sure myself on that. The value of your "club" is what the NPC assigns it as. Players put their own value on items.
TheBarrister wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still ***** about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.
Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.
You forget alot of people play this on x-box or other platforms and have no access to cheats. Maybe someday SE will just solve the problem and remove PCers from the future all together due to all of the cheating/hacking. Is this what people want? As a PC user, I say no but if you force SE's hand they are gonna drop the ban hammer hard and without warning. Just you wait... It has happened before and it will again. If cheating gets so rampant it drives away potental players, esp those on consoles who can't compete. Just look at Hellkitteh's post for proof.
Hellkitteh wrote:
This is very true, the pressure to cheat is so great now! It seems like you have two options now, either you play dirty or you quit.People make you feel like by not cheating you are doing something bad, shouldn't it be the other way around!
Olorinus wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
The worst that can happen is nothing? You dont know SE very well do ya?
I thought it was "just like hockey" where fighting is cheating.... Wait? You mean the players don't hide what they are doing from the ref? They don't jump each other in the alley and break the legs of players on the opposing team while wearing masks so they can avoid the consequences of their actions?
If folks are doing nothing wrong, why don't y'all go post in the main forums about what you're doing? Oh, because what you're doing is NOTHING like the sort of cheating that gets you a two minute penalty - its like the kind of cheating that gets you banned from the sport (nancy Kerrigan style or doping style)
And for all those saying " oh my cheating affects no one else" that's bollucks. WOE shows that if no one does an endgame event SE will change it. But they certainly aren't going to change NNI except for the worse if a ton of people are maxed out on gear just a few months after.
Look, we all agree it is bad game design, but the fact is the reason why floor 100 is a 100 percent drop is because the "bad design" is supposed to be the factor that lowers the overall drop rates. So y'all cheat your faces off, and then those of us who believe in playing by the rules will be screwed because SE will think "oh look how easy that event was, next time we better up the randomness AND decrease the drop rates"
And there is pvp in this game, when I ask to join a party doing an endgame event I am TOTALLY competing against other players for a spot. If the leader has a choice between someone wearing decent gear obtained without cheating and someone decked out in the best from NNI - well who is going to get picked? Is it fair?
I know you guys are skilled and I know cheating this way isn't an instant win, but can't you understand that your actions DO in fact have an impact on other players because of the two factors? Like when it comes to me, since I am a noodling with mediocre gear at best it probably won't make the difference, but there are some really top flight players out there who won't cheat - and you have to admit, they WILL be looked down upon if they don't have the best of the best gear - or at least if they are competing for a party spot, they will lose.
And you have to admit SEs design can get more perverse, and if people get the gear faster than intended they will only make stuff more stupid, once again punishing players who don't cheat. Is that fair? That we ALL get more randomness and lower drop rates because some people were too impatient to wait until an event was fixed and cheated instead?
This sums up the anti-cheating argument. Bravo.
To all of you whom cheat or hack... to all of you who say it is OK and right. POST YOU CHEAT IN SE'S FORUMS. I dare you. Stand behind your opinion. If you are too frightened to do so, you have no right to even be on your high horse here. I'll state it again for clarity in an easy anology: SE owns FFXI. You are PAY for the right to play their game BY THEIR RULES. If you don't like it, too bad. You signed the EULA.
Camiie wrote:
As a side note, I did post in the stagnating "NEO Nyzul 2.0" thread on the official forums basically asking SE if they see the rampant cheating as a sign that the event needs serious adjustment. I tried to express the sentiments put forth in this thread as best I could. I'm obviously not as eloquent as some here are, but you can't say I didn't try. It really wouldn't hurt anyone here to add their input to the thread. The worst that can happen is what's happening now right? Nothing? Besides you guys don't want ME to try to be the voice of reason over there, do you? Few in this thread seem to be fans of my reasoning so.. yeah... You don't want that.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0/page55
Second post on that page.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0/page55
Second post on that page.
My hat is off to Camiie. This is the way to make things better, not cheating.
Xilk wrote:
Who decides what is acceptable? SE and the Playerbase.
SE decides NOT the playerbase.
Xilk wrote:
Its about agreement of what is acceptable between the parties.
Yeah you signed an agreement when you agreed to EULA... so uphold your end of the bargain and don't cheat. If you don't like that SE runs the show and rules then you shouldn't have agreed and installed FFXI.
Xilk wrote:
What does 'fair' have to do with 'cheating' ? The rules could be that 'every elvaan get 1 mil gil at jp midnight, while non-elvaan players do not' Then a 3rd party tool which breaks this UNFAIR rule would be 'cheating'.
If the loudest members of the forum decided, then it would be 'pure democracy' (ie MOB RULE).
If the loudest members of the forum decided, then it would be 'pure democracy' (ie MOB RULE).
If the rule was that then elvaan would get one mil and you'd have to accept it. You are not the game's maker nor are you on the dev team. "Pure democracy" of a game is NOT mob rule of the most vocal person on a forum. Everyone has an equal voice. If SE wanted to have a question answered they could just have a poll pop up when you log on.
Xilk wrote:
Do you feel the EULA is something you really 'Agreed to' ?
If you play FFXI then you did. There is no grey. You don't "half-sign" a legal document then ignore it later. That ends you up in a place called Jail (or penalized).
Xilk wrote:
Personally I think the moral Implications of 'cheating' are lessened significantly in this context. The only moral issue imo is that of the 'agreement' between myself and SE.
I'd hope morally people would be men/women of their word and uphold what they agree to and not wiggle/bend their way out of it
[quote=Xilk]
I think the confusion and most the conflict comes from forum posters using and blending different definitions of Cheating.
I believe these 3 definitions apply to this discussion
Cheat:
1. To violate rules or regulations
2. To defraud or swindle; to deceive
3. Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage
[/quote]
Check, check and check. You violate all of those definitions when you cheat in Nyzul. #1 breaks the EULA. #2 People are HIDING the fact they cheat. If you are not deceiving then prove it by posting in their forums exactly which hacks you use and where. Ask them if it is ok too while you are at it. #3 Yup. X-box users don't have access to those cheats nor do PS users. Also, if SE wanted those cheats in the game, maybe you should share them with SE so they can give every player the ability to do so... just to be fair.
I have a quick question... where is Pikko? I'd love to see her opinion on this matter.
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:45pm by Vlorsutes
First and foremost Prrsha, please don't multi-post like that. Even though it would have been a long post, you should have condensed your four to a single post rather than quadruple posting like that. There are some exceptions I'll give to multi-posting, like if it's someone adding something new to the topic and bumping it in the process (though at the same time necroposting is an issue), but that's about it. I've combined them all into one, and ask again that you don't do that anymore. Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:54pm by Vlorsutes
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:54pm by Vlorsutes
Lady Jinte wrote:
Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points
Vlorsutes wrote:
Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.
And thus passes the greatest taru of a generation.
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Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
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Erecia wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.
And thus passes the greatest taru of ANY generation.
Fixed
No offense, by the way, to all the other Taru's, nothing but love, my diminutive amigos
Dandruffshampoo wrote:
Curses, beaten by Professor stupidopo-opo.
Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Stupidmonkey is more organized than a bag of raccoons.
Vlorsutes wrote:
First and foremost Prrsha, please don't multi-post like that. Even though it would have been a long post, you should have condensed your four to a single post rather than quadruple posting like that. There are some exceptions I'll give to multi-posting, like if it's someone adding something new to the topic and bumping it in the process (though at the same time necroposting is an issue), but that's about it. I've combined them all into one, and ask again that you don't do that anymore. Secondly, Pikko's pretty much gone from the XI scene. Ever since her name was taken on Lakshmi by someone when the first series of server merges took place, she lost interest in playing XI, and has since moved on to XIV.
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:54pm by Vlorsutes
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 6:54pm by Vlorsutes
Since the one post was to one person, and another post to a different one, I separated them for clarity... the final post was just a question about Pikko and was a tad off topic so I put it separate... that was my mindset anyhow.
My apologies... I didn't intend to violate forum format guidelines.
About Pikko, she plays FFXIV now? Does she moderate/check these forums anymore or does she follow the ZAM 14 forums? I was just wondering about her role now in ZAM. She was the 1st admin I knew here... I miss her comments. :3
And happy 4th to everyone...
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 9:48pm by Prrsha
I understand your reasoning, but it's still better to keep it all in one post like that rather than having four separate posts in a row like that. She doesn't really check these forums anymore as far as moderating, and I don't believe (though I don't know for certain) that she reads them for the sake of reading them.
Lady Jinte wrote:
Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points
Prrsha wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
Banalaty wrote:
Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still ***** about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.
Priceless. I think this about summarizes one sides arguments.
You forget alot of people play this on x-box or other platforms and have no access to cheats. Maybe someday SE will just solve the problem and remove PCers from the future all together due to all of the cheating/hacking. Is this what people want? As a PC user, I say no but if you force SE's hand they are gonna drop the ban hammer hard and without warning. Just you wait... It has happened before and it will again. If cheating gets so rampant it drives away potental players, esp those on consoles who can't compete. Just look at Hellkitteh's post for proof.
Hellkitteh wrote:
This is very true, the pressure to cheat is so great now! It seems like you have two options now, either you play dirty or you quit.People make you feel like by not cheating you are doing something bad, shouldn't it be the other way around!
First, I think they are going to remove stone age platforms first. There is evidence to support that. As usual, what there is not, is evidence to support your position.
Second, what Hellkitteh says is "very true" is her own experience, and one that I suspect is based on very little actual widespread exposure. No one is pressuring anyone else to do anything. You can play on a 10 year old electronic device intended for pre-HD video and accomplish everything in this game. I have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating". However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 10:44pm by TheBarrister
Carbuncle
TheBarrister wrote:
have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating".
Who in their right mind would? Would the Mafia come out in the 20's.... place a radio ad saying "We are going to firebomb all of your houses unless to send 10% of your income to P.O. box...."
No. People intimidate in secret so they don't get caught, because they either know it is wrong, or they know they can get penalized for it.
TheBarrister wrote:
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and then they threaten them into never setting foot in another MMO.
High horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers are par for any polarized argument on BOTH sides. This is... as the mod said a very polarizing issue. It's because people care that much about FFXI that people post with such fevor. I can see both angles to this and out of my 15 years of playing MMOs I can say this with certainty: I have never seen a case where CHEATING has benefited a MMO other then cause developers to devote more time and money fixing holes that players create. It drains them of time. It drains and divides the playerbase. It makes the MMO a laughing stock among others due to its "exploitability".
A MMO is not a person's personal data/content sandbox or else SE would have added an editor to the game or some sort of other tools. It also gives you no right to change their game just because you want this and that item from it. It is their intellectual property, not yours. They tell you the rules, you agree to them and install the game and you play it within their rules. If SE doesn't like you breaking their rules they are free to ban you. The question isn't the morals... but it really is an interesting topic about generations... but I degress. The question is about laws/rules. The altering of data in the game is pretty black and white in the EULA. Is it morally right or wrong? Is that question really another topic? One can debate for days.
What can be gained from it is this:
#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.
When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 11:27pm by Prrsha
Prrsha wrote:
What can be gained from it is this:
#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.
When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.
When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
By the way, you two work it out and decide who gets to use the moogle with sunglasses avatar. Seriously.
Philemon on Valefor
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
Gjallarhorn 4/17/08
Daurdabla 5/9/11
Carnwenhan 5/4/12
Ryunohige 10/29/12
Prrsha wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating".
Who in their right mind would? Would the Mafia come out in the 20's.... place a radio ad saying "We are going to firebomb all of your houses unless to send 10% of your income to P.O. box...."
No. People intimidate in secret so they don't get caught, because they either know it is wrong, or they know they can get penalized for it.
TheBarrister wrote:
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and then they threaten them into never setting foot in another MMO.
High horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers are par for any polarized argument on BOTH sides. This is... as the mod said a very polarizing issue. It's because people care that much about FFXI that people post with such fevor. I can see both angles to this and out of my 15 years of playing MMOs I can say this with certainty: I have never seen a case where CHEATING has benefited a MMO other then cause developers to devote more time and money fixing holes that players create. It drains them of time. It drains and divides the playerbase. It makes the MMO a laughing stock among others due to its "exploitability".
A MMO is not a person's personal data/content sandbox or else SE would have added an editor to the game or some sort of other tools. It also gives you no right to change their game just because you want this and that item from it. It is their intellectual property, not yours. They tell you the rules, you agree to them and install the game and you play it within their rules. If SE doesn't like you breaking their rules they are free to ban you. The question isn't the morals... but it really is an interesting topic about generations... but I degress. The question is about laws/rules. The altering of data in the game is pretty black and white in the EULA. Is it morally right or wrong? Is that question really another topic? One can debate for days.
What can be gained from it is this:
#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.
When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
Edited, Jul 4th 2012 11:27pm by Prrsha
detlef wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
What can be gained from it is this:
#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.
When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
#1 SE Developed the game not you. It is their intellectual properity.
#2 When install the game you sign a EULA. It states you will not change or alter their intellectual property.
#3 The EULA in itself is a rule of conduct.
#4 By changing the content of FFXI you are breaking that agreement you made with SE to play their game.
#5 If you break the EULA you are void your rights in the game to your character
#6 SE then can then delete your character and toss you off the server.
When they will act on #6 is the question and how. I'd hate to see a large chunk of the community getting caught up in the "hacks are ok" wave then get the ban stick shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and wonder why.
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
I never said I thought it was right or wrong personally in my above quote. That is very grey. I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced. To clarify: The EULA would put the windower in the bannable cataegory. My personal opinion... I don't see just the plain vanalla windower as "cheat" or an "exploit"... so morals wise I don't see it as being bad per say. EULA wise, it is black and white though (read my above comment a few pages back about decision making as a GM)... and no, I have never used a windower despite being on a PC. To this day I run the game on full screen mode (just my pref).
detlef wrote:
By the way, you two work it out and decide who gets to use the moogle with sunglasses avatar. Seriously.
Just think of us as two sides of the same coin. :P :3
Edited, Jul 5th 2012 1:53am by Prrsha
Prrsha wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
have yet to see a single person in any of the threads on all major forums say "you're bad for not cheating".
Who in their right mind would? Would the Mafia come out in the 20's.... place a radio ad saying "We are going to firebomb all of your houses unless to send 10% of your income to P.O. box...."
No. People intimidate in secret so they don't get caught, because they either know it is wrong, or they know they can get penalized for it.
TheBarrister wrote:
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses something other than vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and that they can't wait until SE ban hammers them into never setting foot in another MMO.
However, I think we have some prima facie cases of the other way around - basically high horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers who tell everyone who uses vanilla FFXI that they are the devil and then they threaten them into never setting foot in another MMO.
High horse, podium pounding, foot stomping preachers are par for any polarized argument on BOTH sides. This is... as the mod said a very polarizing issue. It's because people care that much about FFXI that people post with such fevor. I can see both angles to this and out of my 15 years of playing MMOs I can say this with certainty: I have never seen a case where CHEATING has benefited a MMO other then cause developers to devote more time and money fixing holes that players create. It drains them of time. It drains and divides the playerbase. It makes the MMO a laughing stock among others due to its "exploitability".
We really don't have the situation that you say. The people you refer to as not playing vanilla FFXI simply do not care what the vanilla players are doing. Whereas the vanilla players, at least the ones I have seen on this thread and a few people I know in game, sure as heck take a lot of time to whine about what they perceive to be an affront on the very fabric of the universe.
Carbuncle
Prrsha, your whole EULA argument and your challenge for people to post on SE's forums saying they cheat is a non-issue. Who in this thread is actually debating that? The people who cheat in Nyzul KNOW that it is contrary to the terms of the EULA. They KNOW that it would get them banned if SE caught them flee-hacking red-handed. They are not advocating that it is OK from the standpoint of SE. They are explaining why they feel it is justified vis-a-vis the playerbase. Thus, I fail to see how essentially offering themselves up to a GM on a silver platter proves anything or advances this argument or thread.
Stupid wireless here reset and ate my post but gist of it was
There ARE cheats that improve games. Not all player created/asjusted content kills mmos or any game mods being the most common. Look at counter strike. Look at vanila windower. Any popular game has thousands of users with good ideas to help the game they love be better. Some ffxi players with tech Davy got together and said: you know what would be AWESOME!? If ffxi didn't crash every time I get a popup. No what else? If I could use my muti hundered/thousand dollar machine designed to multi task to....milti task and alt-tab out of the game without it crashing forcing me to log back in through the SINGLE MOST EXORBANT LOGIN PROCESS OF ANY GAME I EVER PLAYED constantly. (Seriously, I can double click my icon for Diablo 3 and be killing monsters in under 30 seconds. Pol/ffxi login system is rediculous).
Players have good ideas and fix broken games every friggin day. There are a laundry list of games where players have cheated by technicality, but improved the gamer experience tobthe point that it extends the life of a game by years and even decades, then the company makes a sequel WITH those mods built in because they are so popular. There are thousands of windower people that would consider if not outright quit if they shut windower down. The fact that they took some 6years to even have a vanilla windowed game mode is atrocious, but I guess some people will eat **** and like it if that's what the designers shove at them.
Before this gets taken out of context: this is to refute the point that blankets "all cheating is bad and it kills games". Some Cheating HELPS and saves otherwise dead games. Not all cheating. Some cheating does and has killed games. Its a gun. Sometimes they save people. Sometimes they kill people. Sometimes they are used to make an army to protect the country. Sometimes they are used in genocide. Its a tool who's value is derived by the people who use them and their motives.
The only thing black and white about cheating is that everything not from the dev team is cheating. That distinction is not in question. Just like the only thing black and white about guns is that they can kill people. That's so 'duh' it doesn't warrant saying. But if you are looking at alright and wrong, fair, morals, justification or anything else, they are tools that can be used for anything and there its all grey.
Also, I'll make a deal with any poster on the side of ALL CHEATING IS WRONG camp. Make a post on official forums calling for the dismantling or banning of all people using windower in any form and I will happily reply that I am an avid user of windower and will promptly stop handing over my money if windower is killed or they begin enforcing bans based on its use because its true (The exception obviously if they added many of the windower functions to the game and THEN enforced the windower ban. I'd still play then). This 'cheat' has improved the experience of thousands that many would simply quit without it at this point.
There ARE cheats that improve games. Not all player created/asjusted content kills mmos or any game mods being the most common. Look at counter strike. Look at vanila windower. Any popular game has thousands of users with good ideas to help the game they love be better. Some ffxi players with tech Davy got together and said: you know what would be AWESOME!? If ffxi didn't crash every time I get a popup. No what else? If I could use my muti hundered/thousand dollar machine designed to multi task to....milti task and alt-tab out of the game without it crashing forcing me to log back in through the SINGLE MOST EXORBANT LOGIN PROCESS OF ANY GAME I EVER PLAYED constantly. (Seriously, I can double click my icon for Diablo 3 and be killing monsters in under 30 seconds. Pol/ffxi login system is rediculous).
Players have good ideas and fix broken games every friggin day. There are a laundry list of games where players have cheated by technicality, but improved the gamer experience tobthe point that it extends the life of a game by years and even decades, then the company makes a sequel WITH those mods built in because they are so popular. There are thousands of windower people that would consider if not outright quit if they shut windower down. The fact that they took some 6years to even have a vanilla windowed game mode is atrocious, but I guess some people will eat **** and like it if that's what the designers shove at them.
Before this gets taken out of context: this is to refute the point that blankets "all cheating is bad and it kills games". Some Cheating HELPS and saves otherwise dead games. Not all cheating. Some cheating does and has killed games. Its a gun. Sometimes they save people. Sometimes they kill people. Sometimes they are used to make an army to protect the country. Sometimes they are used in genocide. Its a tool who's value is derived by the people who use them and their motives.
The only thing black and white about cheating is that everything not from the dev team is cheating. That distinction is not in question. Just like the only thing black and white about guns is that they can kill people. That's so 'duh' it doesn't warrant saying. But if you are looking at alright and wrong, fair, morals, justification or anything else, they are tools that can be used for anything and there its all grey.
Also, I'll make a deal with any poster on the side of ALL CHEATING IS WRONG camp. Make a post on official forums calling for the dismantling or banning of all people using windower in any form and I will happily reply that I am an avid user of windower and will promptly stop handing over my money if windower is killed or they begin enforcing bans based on its use because its true (The exception obviously if they added many of the windower functions to the game and THEN enforced the windower ban. I'd still play then). This 'cheat' has improved the experience of thousands that many would simply quit without it at this point.
Quote:
I am an avid user of windower and will promptly stop handing over my money if windower is killed or they begin enforcing bans based on its use because its true (The exception obviously if they added many of the windower functions to the game and THEN enforced the windower ban. I'd still play then).
Fully agree.
Prrsha wrote:
To Barrister... If you think what you are doing is "ok"... and you are using 3rd party tools to "cheat" then I offer a challenge to you. Post exactly what cheat you use and how you cheat on SE's offical forums. See what they say? There is a quick answer to this to see what they consider "right" and "wrong". If you feel really bold, e-mail them your character name, server information and account information. If they ban you in a quick and efficent manner you know the reason then.
I did not reply with my other response because your seemingly simple solution of posting on SE official forums actually does quite a good job of clouding the point of this thread in a very complex way. I will not address whether or not the SE official forums would accomplish what you intend such posts to do if we assume that information was put there.
You are confusing two issues:
(1) whether or not actions violate the EULA
(2) whether or not people are okay with that
You and the rest of the people of your opinion which from my own, extremely limited exposure is about 10 in this thread and the game, care a lot about both of those things.
The people who I have had exposure to that would violate the EULA fall into two categories:
(A) those who would do it because they simply don't care at all about the EULA;
(B) those who would do it in limited circumstances because of poor game design.
Again, my very limited exposure to about 200 people who would violate the EULA, indicates more than 195 of them are in category (B) only, rather than (A). These people really don't care about the opinions of the people like you and are not trying to convince you of anything except for their reasons under (B). In comparison, you and the people like you are trying to convince them of things that are already a given, such as (1).
If your implied future outcome is that this will eventually involve mass banning, we have contradictory evidence of that. On the one hand we had server side manipulation with salvage duping, which resulted in mass banning. This had nothing to even to do with using anything but vanilla FFXI. I'm not sure how this evidence is relevant except that people were banned for using a built in function of the game. So this evidence actually supports an opposite (not mine though) opinion of yours that doing (1) is okay. In fact, following the EULA, may not be ok! Unless of course you can read the mindset of the eventual interpreter of the EULA.
Then we have the evidence that very little people were banned for violating the EULA during almost a decade of cheating at HNMs using bots and other tactics designed to claim on pop/assist with claim on pop. This is why we have a large portion of people, at least that I have had exposure to (which I take as a % of all servers), who are in category (B). This evidence supports my position, and my only position, which is that I understand the mindset of (B) and I will not try to convince them that they should have a different mindset.
Edited, Jul 5th 2012 2:49pm by TheBarrister
Carbuncle
Prrsha wrote:
...
I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced.
...
Geez, how many Jews, gypsies, and gays were turned over to the authorities because of this mentality - after all, they broke Germany's EULA by being jewish / gay / a gypsie.
EDIT: I know I know I know, the **** references are cliche. I just get so irritated by people when they play the "I dont agree to this" then offer their backsides to their "superiors", actually applauding them when they enforce the same actions "they dont agree with." Yech. How mindlessly apathetic.
Edited, Jul 5th 2012 3:12pm by ManifestOfKujata
You just lost the argument you nitwit.
Server: Midgardsormr
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage
I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
Occupation: Reckless Red Mage
IcookPizza wrote:
I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
Aliekber
RDM BLU SCH DRG PLD BLM NIN WHM
Linkshell: CrimsonMercenaries Server: Carbamesh
Post in /K/ where the orbital laser system is now online.
RDM BLU SCH DRG PLD BLM NIN WHM
Linkshell: CrimsonMercenaries Server: Carbamesh
Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Human (?) females look ugly.
Can I just say that the majority of those of us who are uncomfortable with people cheating neo-nyzul (well me and most of the reasonable people who feel that way) don't give a feck about windower?
Use long macros away! Honestly - if I could get the resolution to look less crappy with windower and had the foggiest idea how to use spellcast I'd be all over it.
There's a pretty big difference in my mind between hacking dats with the express purpose of foiling the intentions behind an event and hacking dats so your mithra is wearing a rastafarian hat. Just like there is a difference between using long macros that would be legal if the game supported long macros and flee hacking, or seeing through walls or making invisible monsters visible.
/shrugs
The fundamental difference I think between both reasonable halves of this argument is that one side thinks they aren't hurting anyone - and the other side thinks "gee, this really isn't fair, cause SE is going to make new events suck even more if they think people are getting 15/15 on NNI way faster than they intended without hacks, so I'm going to be faced with the choice of opting out of even more content and falling behind on top notch gear, or breaking principles I want to stay true to."
Use long macros away! Honestly - if I could get the resolution to look less crappy with windower and had the foggiest idea how to use spellcast I'd be all over it.
There's a pretty big difference in my mind between hacking dats with the express purpose of foiling the intentions behind an event and hacking dats so your mithra is wearing a rastafarian hat. Just like there is a difference between using long macros that would be legal if the game supported long macros and flee hacking, or seeing through walls or making invisible monsters visible.
/shrugs
The fundamental difference I think between both reasonable halves of this argument is that one side thinks they aren't hurting anyone - and the other side thinks "gee, this really isn't fair, cause SE is going to make new events suck even more if they think people are getting 15/15 on NNI way faster than they intended without hacks, so I'm going to be faced with the choice of opting out of even more content and falling behind on top notch gear, or breaking principles I want to stay true to."
ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
...
I am just stating the laws as they are. Plain and dry. I don't agree with every law but I'd expect them to be enforced.
...
Geez, how many Jews, gypsies, and gays were turned over to the authorities because of this mentality - after all, they broke Germany's EULA by being jewish / gay / a gypsie.
EDIT: I know I know I know, the **** references are cliche. I just get so irritated by people when they play the "I dont agree to this" then offer their backsides to their "superiors", actually applauding them when they enforce the same actions "they dont agree with." Yech. How mindlessly apathetic.
Edited, Jul 5th 2012 3:12pm by ManifestOfKujata
Surprised it took this long to hit Godwin's Law.
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