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#202 Jun 30 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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#203 Jun 30 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
To all the people who hack, cheat, exploit, a big F and U to you all. I really really hope SE bans you all and you never get to see FFXI ever again. I am really tired of these kinds of people that ruin great MMOs and other games.

If they were to ban everyone that ever broke the tos via hacks cheats and exploits of any sort (this would include unofficial windower), the world of vana'diel would be a very, very lonely place.


The windower hmmm... that is a grey area. Does it give you an advantage over other players? It depends on the plug-ins. To have the game simply windowed... I don't really see that as an exploit, but that is for SE to judge. I have never used it myself. 3rd party content is always hard to judge (I've been a GM before and TRUST me... those judgement calls are tough). Does the good outweigh the bad? That's the question. According to "rules" any third party program that alters, changes or reads data is bannable. But rules are seldom enforced to the letter and GMs tend to turn a blind eye to that which helps the community AS A WHOLE. Does this hack benefit the community as a whole? No. It's only for a select few. SE for whatever reason it is, decided that area to be based on luck, skill whatever. If not they would have not designed that way. It does NOT give you the right to cheat past their "rules" to get what you want. Once again, this is their game not yours. If you don't like a certain feature, complain to them. Post... whatever. Don't cheat to get what you think you deserve. Think of SE as the banker in monopoly. If he doesn't want to slip you $20 for landing on free parking... you have to have to accept it. You don't steal cash when his back is turned... has morality been lost in this day and age? I hope not but it just may be the sign of the times.

As for your comment about banning... I'd rather have a very lonely place of a tight knit friendly (non cheating) player base, then a huge server of *ss hats. Of course this would mean less money for SE and less money for content but meh, I am a consumer not a company and everyone is free to their own opinion.

A tad off topic wise, I don't know why but... the current FFXI community seems (to me at least) a lot more "unfriendly" then 5+ years ago. Call it nostalgia, or what-not... it just seems that way to me. Call me crazy, because I am. ;3

Edited, Jun 30th 2012 9:53pm by Prrsha
#205 Jun 30 2012 at 9:10 PM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:
Reiterpallasch wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
To all the people who hack, cheat, exploit, a big F and U to you all. I really really hope SE bans you all and you never get to see FFXI ever again. I am really tired of these kinds of people that ruin great MMOs and other games.

If they were to ban everyone that ever broke the tos via hacks cheats and exploits of any sort (this would include unofficial windower), the world of vana'diel would be a very, very lonely place.


The windower hmmm... that is a grey area. Does it give you an advantage over other players? It depends on the plug-ins. To have the game simply windowed... I don't really see that as an exploit, but that is for SE to judge. I have never used it myself. 3rd party content is always hard to judge (I've been a GM before and TRUST me... those judgement calls are tough). Does the good outweigh the bad? That's the question. According to "rules" any third party program that alters, changes or reads data is bannable. But rules are seldom enforced to the letter and GMs tend to turn a blind eye to that which helps the community AS A WHOLE. Does this hack benefit the community as a whole? No. It's only for a select few. SE for whatever reason it is, decided that area to be based on luck, skill whatever. If not they would have not designed that way. It does NOT give you the right to cheat past their "rules" to get what you want. Once again, this is their game not yours. If you don't like a certain feature, complain to them. Post... whatever. Don't cheat to get what you think you deserve. Think of SE as the banker in monopoly. If he doesn't want to slip you $20 for landing on free parking... you have to have to accept it. You don't steal cash when his back is turned... has morality been lost in this day and age? I hope not but it just may be the sign of the times.

As for your comment about banning... I'd rather have a very lonely place of a tight knit friendly (non cheating) player base, then a huge server of *ss hats. Of course this would mean less money for SE and less money for content but meh, I am a consumer not a company and everyone is free to their own opinion.

A tad off topic wise, I don't know why but... the current FFXI community seems (to me at least) a lot more "unfriendly" then 5+ years ago. Call it nostalgia, or what-not... it just seems that way to me. Call me crazy, because I am. ;3

Edited, Jun 30th 2012 9:53pm by Prrsha


Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


Exactly.... I couldn't have said it better. :3
#206 Jun 30 2012 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Except the rules of Basketball have changed due to abuse. Originally there was no shot clock, so scores would be in the mid teens by the end of the game because whichever team was leading would just hold and pass the ball for as long as possible. The game was changed because of the exploit, which is something SE isn't doing.

Horrible example. Try again.
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#207 Jul 01 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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The team that was losing should have just punched the guy holding the ball, right Raelix? Punching is totally against the rules and is blatant cheating, but that's acceptable when the rules aren't the way you thibk they should be, right?

#208 Jul 01 2012 at 1:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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CorncobWilly wrote:
The team that was losing should have just punched the guy holding the ball, right Raelix? Punching is totally against the rules and is blatant cheating, but that's acceptable when the rules aren't the way you thibk they should be, right?




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#209 Jul 01 2012 at 1:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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CorncobWilly wrote:
The team that was losing should have just punched the guy holding the ball, right Raelix? Punching is totally against the rules and is blatant cheating, but that's acceptable when the rules aren't the way you thibk they should be, right?

I find it acceptable awesome to punch an opposing teammate in the face if they're a robot, or computer simulation, and I would make sure everyone I knew knew about it, preferably catching it on video.
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#210 Jul 01 2012 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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And that's why people say it's bad content. If you are sufficiently skilled, you should be able to have 100% success rate.


And clearly most people aren't skilled enough.

Quote:
You do realize by applying the luck to the game play and having skill to increase luck in our favor is closest square has ever given us to the reward system you and the like have been asking for, for years?


You don't seem to understand. All of the "hardcore" players want content which they can beat and which no one else can beat. It's like this in every game.

Diablo III introduces a game mode which is designed to be ridiculously, unfairly, stupidly difficult... and people whine because they can't beat it.

Everyone thinks they're the Flying Spaghetti Monster's gift to gaming and that they should be able to stomp content which is designed to be incredibly hard to beat....

In other words, they don't want to fail, they want to see other people fail while they succeed so as to buff their own egos.

It's delicious, really. The same people who would mock you for not beating the content they beat throw an absolute hissy when they find some content they can't beat. Look at them, panties in a bunch, red arrowing through the tears every time someone points out that they're not entitled to a win just for showing up...

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Nuh uh! I'm da bestest! If I don't ALWAYS WIN, it's BROKEN, and I'll CHEAT to fix it!


tl;dr: Same cycle as always: Gamers whine about how easymode everything is/has become; Developers deliver hardmode designed to make even the best players fail; Players whine, cry, and cheat because the content is too hard.

For all the people who claim to want a hardcore, non easymode game, people sure do get butthurt when they actually find challenging content. All anyone really wants is an endless gear feed, and maybe enough arbitrary difficulty or gear requirements to let them feel better than the rabble.
#211 Jul 01 2012 at 3:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Based on how good the gear is and how you are guaranteed to get exactly what you want when you win (plus a chance at additional drops), the win rate should not be 100%. And as I posted earlier, it's very much NOT a 100% win rate. Only the most blatant hacks (which will get you suspended or worse) will get you close to 100%. Fillmode and lamp dats will get you to 25%-50% or so depending on your group. Higher % if you are the best of the best (not me). And if your group is inept, they too are not enough to punch a ticket to Floor 100.
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#212 Jul 01 2012 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread was better when it was about cats and dogs.

I have 2 simple points to make on the thread topic of cheating.

Firstly, there is no debate whether or not this is cheating - it is cheating by the definition of the word and by the rules of the people who make the game (SE). That is not in question.

What is apparently in question is the 'morality' of this cheating - whether it's acceptable or not to do which brings me to my second point.

If you want to know whether it's morally acceptable or not to cheat, you only have to look at the people in this thread who are defending cheating.

People like Raelix who spends most of his time on here calling people morons and idiots when they don't think the same way he does.

Or Viertel, someone nearly equally as charming.

Or the guy from BG - that well known arena of reasonable, civilised, intelligent discourse.

In other words, all the obnoxious message board stereotypes who think they are always right and everyone else is a moron and who can't bear it when they don't get what they want.

Where are the decent people supporting cheating? Why aren't the likes of Melphina, Tummie, Elmer or people like that on here passionately supporting cheating?

I'll take morality advice from the likes of Raelix the same day I take financial advice from Bernard Madoff, fashion advice from Lady Gaga and parenting advice from Josef Fritzl.
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#213 Jul 01 2012 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Adjust your bra straps jtf, your chip is showing.
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#214 Jul 01 2012 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAmyri wrote:
tl;dr: Same cycle as always: Gamers whine about how easymode everything is/has become; Developers deliver hardmode designed to make even the best players fail; Players whine, cry, and cheat because the content is too hard.

For all the people who claim to want a hardcore, non easymode game, people sure do get butthurt when they actually find challenging content. All anyone really wants is an endless gear feed, and maybe enough arbitrary difficulty or gear requirements to let them feel better than the rabble.


This is getting so old. I am so sick of people calling this challenging content.

luck based event ≠ challenging content

Please explain to me the challenge in guessing the correct lamp order (Hint: there isn't one). either you use .dat swaps and get it or you don't and guess with a high probability of guessing wrong and instantly losing the run. Have you ever even done the event? Because anyone who says this either hasn't done the event or is just foolish.

Quote:
Diablo III introduces a game mode which is designed to be ridiculously, unfairly, stupidly difficult... and people whine because they can't beat it.


Even your Diablo 3 example doesn't fit. While Diablo 3's Inferno difficulty is insane it has nothing to do with a guessing game or random floor objectives and floor jumps.

I would really like to know if you have done this is event because it seems as though you haven't at all.
#215 Jul 01 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI was the genesis of my game design policy "Random is never fun."
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#216 Jul 01 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.
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#217 Jul 01 2012 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.



I personally think the opposite is truer. Monsters Developers have a direct control over, where as players they don't. It take a massive amount of time for them to test something enough to know every single way a player might use abilities. Especially in rpgs where tactics can be applied. I remember when I figured out a built a deck in Phantasy Star online episode 3 C.A.R.D. Revolution. It took me about a month to figure out how to make this deck nearly flawless. Only one rarely use defensive card could counter the deck.(something the player base never really realized) And a handful of weapon/monster cards that actually had the trait innately. When I finally took it to a public area and obliterated my opponent in a tournament in 2 days it was the most over used deck online. Just to give an example of when players do things they don't expect players to do or find interesting ways to use the abilities they are given. **** look at their happy mistake with ninja(Our happy their frustration). And PvP is such a different animal from PvE. **** just go into PvP and see how vastly different your abilities and skills are in potency and effectiveness. **** I remember landing a dark magic spell as white mage no problem in PvP where I have a better chance of breaking 500 damage with banish I if I tried to land that on a monster. Any who, it's much harder to control what players do so adjusting for a PvP situation in an RPG is much more difficult then having direct control over one of the elements, in my opinion.

Any who, I didn't realize Nyzul isle the only place in FFXI where we can have a satisfying experience. Guess cheaters are the only ones that feel satisfied in this game.

Edit: Also I agree this thread should go back to cats and dogsXD

Aristicats had cats that were the good guys!

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 1:42pm by Laxedrane
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#218 Jul 01 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselvesBold Text. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating.


This, big time. SE has had a stupid case of Killer Game Master

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster

And all their content is based around really poor design decisions
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies

Difficulty is constituted of fake difficulty vs real difficulty
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard


All the above only ends up encouraging / mandating min-maxing as the only viable method of progression / loot obtainment.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinMaxing

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 6:07pm by saevellakshmi

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 6:07pm by saevellakshmi
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#219 Jul 01 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I should have said instead of "This event is luck based" with the coin reference to "this event is EXCESSIVELIY luck based". Obviously it requires skill. It requires coordination and all that fun stuff. Luck is not the only factor. However, any event that is excessively luck based stops being fun. People are comparing this to chess, basketball, and whatever else. This is PvM. Not PvP. In a PvP game, any PvP game, each team (assuming it is 2) has a 50% chance of winning with the game being virtually ENTIRELY determined by who is more skilled. There is no luck in chess. No luck in basketball. These are head to head skill based contests and usually only have ONE aspect where luck comes into play. Flipping a coin to see who moves/gets the ball 1st. While it has been proven that the player going 1st has a minute (like less than 2%) advantage in some of these games, compare the impact of luck on the winner in a scenario like that vs NI.

Compare the impact of luck in ANY event to date to the new NI.

When you loose because a monster just kicks your ***, you regroup, restrategize, change jobs, gear up more, do SOMETHING to say "this is what i learned and next time we can overcome (insert reason you lost). When an 'ideal' group of players with absurd gear (FAAAAR exceeding anything most people will EVER get), use 3rd party voice chat to communicate more efficiently than possible in the game, and otherwise a superior setup in every way the game allows and then some (voice chat) and still just 'rolls the dice' the event is no longer fun. I did plenty of plane jane runs. Once you reach a certain point, you realize, there is no significant adjustments to be made and you just cleared floor 70 because you got 2-3 jumps and a kill all floor with 3-4 HNMs and WS restricted, you realize no amount of 'skill' will fix it. You dont leave the run saying "well do better next time guys!" you leave and say "I hope SE doesnt @#%^ us again next time".

When luck REGULARLY and REPEATEDLY kills an otherwise successful run, theres no fun in that. It makes you want to punch a bag of babys. I enjoy a challenge as much (arguably moreso based on my personality) as the next guy. There is no growth, or skill to be learned.Games like baseket ball dont have random meteors that crash into the game occasionally killing a team mate and ref just says "well guess you gotta keep going -1 player vs the other full team opponents". There are no completely random "@#%^ yous" in any world renowned competitive sport. EVERY sanctioned sport with large followings has rules to REDUCE the impact of luck to make it a true skill based competition between players. But they are playing PEOPLE. Not code.

How much fun would an HNM be that was basically a pushover, but had a 50% chance to use a move that was ZONE wide deathga. Cant be stunned. Cant be PDed. Cant do anything. It WILL kill you if it uses it period. There is nothing you can do to mitigate, or prevent it. ANd it just 'decides' if its going to use it. That is getting trolled. Thats not fun. Thats not a learning experience and for ***** sake it doesnt make the monster HARD or CHALLENGING or DIFFICULT. It makes it a CHEAP POS.Luck=/= difficulty or challenge. Please stop saying it. Also, please stop making these broad generalizations that all cheaters are bad evil @#%^s. I can rattle off a list of 'evil cheaters' that are the nicest, most helpful **** people in the world. I can also list off a bunch of @#%^ing pricks that play on PS2. Protip: Gross generalizations about a group of people based on limited sample/information and/or biased is friggin ignorant.
Quote:

In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.


Dear god this person gets it!

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 2:06pm by Banalaty
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#220 Jul 01 2012 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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When luck REGULARLY and REPEATEDLY kills an otherwise successful run, theres no fun in that. It makes you want to punch a bag of babys. I enjoy a challenge as much (arguably moreso based on my personality) as the next guy. There is no growth, or skill to be learned.Games like baseket ball dont have random meteors that crash into the game occasionally killing a team mate and ref just says "well guess you gotta keep going -1 player vs the other full team opponents". There are no completely random "@#%^ yous" in any world renowned competitive sport. EVERY sanctioned sport with large followings has rules to REDUCE the impact of luck to make it a true skill based competition between players. But they are playing PEOPLE. Not code.


That just gave me an idea..

During the game, on the side lines have someone roll some dice every quarter. Based on the results of the roll, one side or the other suffers from a range of penalties or bonus's. Can do everything from removing a player, reducing all of your goals to 1pt each, doubling your teams goals, reducing your shot clock or doubling it. Could hand out some free throws or bonus points.

How would people enjoy playing that game...

After all, suck less right.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#221 Jul 01 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
During the game, on the side lines have someone roll some dice every quarter. Based on the results of the roll, one side or the other suffers from a range of penalties or bonus's. Can do everything from removing a player, reducing all of your goals to 1pt each, doubling your teams goals, reducing your shot clock or doubling it. Could hand out some free throws or bonus points.


You just described Mario Party.

Erecia wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game. You can't decide to make the knight in chess jump around like a pony just because you feel like it or because you think it's too hard to limiting to move it normally. You're no longer playing chess. You're no longer playing FFXI if you decide to cheat. You're playing your own special meaningless nothing, and your entire "game" has now been invalidated. Go play Monopoly and steal the entire bank and call yourself a millionaire or something and pat yourself on the back for winning if you don't care about rules.


In a game where it's players vs players, this sort of mentality is 100% correct. It's pointless and stupid to be playing against another player that is overtly cheating.

But FFXI isn't like that. In the ideal FFXI world, all the players win. All the players get the gear they want. All the players have fun. The challenge is against the monsters the game presents to us. Arguably, it's against the developers themselves. The problem with this is that it's much harder to balance a players vs. system type of game than it is a player vs. player game. In the latter, you set everyone on an equal playing field and call it a day, but the former requires design that's strong enough to be challenging without being so overwhelming to be frustrating. Naturally, a lot of times, the first try at this is simply wrong. As players, we expect that these sorts of balance issues would be corrected over time, and, when they're not, that's frustrating. I can understand why some players resort to cheats and exploits - it feels as if breaking the deliberately unfair system is simply the only option. They're cheating, yes, but the event is basically cheating too in the sense that it's not an even that's designed with any sort of fairness or fun in mind.

And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.
I agree with everything you said.

Edited, Jul 1st 2012 9:04am by detlef
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#222 Jul 01 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
People can't seem to grasp the concept that a game, any game, is literally nothing but a set of rules. Basketball, for example, without rules is just throwing a ball in a hoop. If you change the rules to your benefit, it is no longer a game.

Every single basketball player breaks the rules of the game every game. For violating the rules, there are consequences and penalties. There are even cases where teams change their strategy to intentionally and obviously break the rules to take advantage of the penalties imposed.

If Basketball players were judged the same way FFXI were being judged in this thread, the guy who was wearing shorts that were too long according to the NBA, the guy who was caught traveling, and the guy who grabbed an opponent and body slammed him down to the hardwood floor would all be labelled as cheaters. Every single NBA player would need to be stripped of their championships and individual honors, because the game was obviously too hard for them to win cleanly.
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#223 Jul 01 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
This is one of those arguments where really no one's opinion will be changed, and I argue that the entire discussion itself is a pointless one.

There are people that cheat and people that don't. The ones that do will continue to do so even if they are ridiculed in the process by their fellow players, because they like the advantage that it gives them in completing what they're using those cheats for (flee hacks, claim bots, etc). They feel that the current system is unfair for one reason or another, and they aren't opposed to using "illegal" methods to get their way. Only one of two things can happen that will stop these kinds of players from using those cheats. 1) They lose interest in the event, be it because new gear has come out that makes those previously sought out items obsolete, or they've obtained all the items from there, and they don't have any drive to continue, or 2) Direct intervention by Square Enix that either makes it impossible for these tools to be used or disciplinary action is taken on those individuals (though even that sometimes isn't enough).

Then there are those players that are adamant against using cheats. Be it morality or just because they prefer the event as it's laid out before them, they won't cheat, nor do they condone the actions of those that do.

There really isn't a gray area with this situation, there will be people will use it and berate those that won't for being cowards and there will be those who won't use it and berate those that will for being spoiled. It's better to just accept that there are going to be those that have those differing opinions, no matter what.
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#224 Jul 01 2012 at 5:47 PM Rating: Default
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Erecia wrote:
And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.


So, then where do we draw the line at where cheating is acceptable and when it is not? Why is it ok here and not ok where someone else might see an unfair system in place in their opinion? Who decides what constitutes unfair or even what is cheating and what isn't? SE? The playerbase as a whole? The most active and vocal members of the forums? There's a lot of aspects of the game I think are inadequate and unfair, and have gear I'd like within them. Would it be ok if I cheated my way through any and all of those as long as I'm comfortable with doing so?
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#225 Jul 01 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Camiie wrote:
Erecia wrote:
And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.

So, then where do we draw the line at where cheating is acceptable and when it is not?

SE decides that. If you think SE simply doesn't know about this, then report it. SE will decide whether its worth acting on or not.

Personally, I agree with those who have made the distinction in this thread already about cheats that directly impact other players vs cheats that don't. To me, price fixing practices on the AH -- which don't violate the ToS or require the use of 3rd party tools -- are a far worse "cheat" than players using various tools in an instanced environment like Nyzul.

At best, you can argue that players who cheat to get those rewards devalue the accomplishment of players that got the same rewards without using those cheats. If there was some kind of sanctioned system for buying and selling these rewards for real money, I would have a different stance on this issue.
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#226 Jul 01 2012 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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What's with all the sports analogies? Athletes bend or break the rules all the time. Soccer players flop or pretend they didn't foul They pretend the ball didn't hit their hand. They pretend to be injured to be carted off the field, then hop off the gurney as and rejoin play. Basketball players intentionally foul, palm the basketball, travel, and flop. Baseball players pretend to get hit be the ball, doctor the baseball with pine tar and spit, and cork their bats. Football players hold on every single play, try to injure each other in the pile. Sometimes they intentionally injure each other. It ain't cheating if you don't get caught is a motto very deeply ingrained in society.

I think once you start using windower you're technically cheating. From there on out, it's just a matter of degree and for a lot of people it's just a matter of what you can do without being caught. Use windower? Then you can't really criticize others unless you can argue that they directly affect your gameplay.

Let's look at Vlorsutes. I have quite a great deal of respect for him because he has to tiptoe the line between endgame FFXIer, Alla admin, and frequent BG poster. He has quite a bit of Nyzul gear. I can guarantee that regardless of what his group did, he's proud of his gear, feels he earned it, and had a blast doing it.
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#227 Jul 01 2012 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Vlorsutes wrote:

There really isn't a gray area with this situation

If there was no gray area then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Come on Vlor, you're smarter than that.
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#228 Jul 01 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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detlef wrote:
What's with all the sports analogies? Athletes bend or break the rules all the time. Soccer players flop or pretend they didn't foul They pretend the ball didn't hit their hand. They pretend to be injured to be carted off the field, then hop off the gurney as and rejoin play. Basketball players intentionally foul, palm the basketball, travel, and flop. Baseball players pretend to get hit be the ball, doctor the baseball with pine tar and spit, and cork their bats. Football players hold on every single play, try to injure each other in the pile. Sometimes they intentionally injure each other. It ain't cheating if you don't get caught is a motto very deeply ingrained in society.

I think once you start using windower you're technically cheating. From there on out, it's just a matter of degree and for a lot of people it's just a matter of what you can do without being caught. Use windower? Then you can't really criticize others unless you can argue that they directly affect your gameplay.

Let's look at Vlorsutes. I have quite a great deal of respect for him because he has to tiptoe the line between endgame FFXIer, Alla admin, and frequent BG poster. He has quite a bit of Nyzul gear. I can guarantee that regardless of what his group did, he's proud of his gear, feels he earned it, and had a blast doing it.


It depends on the game really and what rules people will bend and break. In chess it is really hard to cheat because the rules are all cut and dry but most of all cheats are.... EASY TO SPOT. That is the key here. If refs in basketball games all saw every flop and every "cheat" they could enforce accordingly. The fact is that here in FFXI, the "cheats" are hard to spot sometimes, especially in this zone of the game. If the GMs have the tools to see who cheats... and when, I'd hope they'd ban the lot of them. The same with the refs in basketball. Just because a violation is caught unseen doesn't make it right? Just because a drug test in a sport comes up clean due to some sort of bribing doesn't make taking illegal drugs to have an edge in the Olympics ok? If someone thinks that, then shame on them. You'd better check your morality gauge. In real life people are penalized for breaking rules in sports. They can be banned from the game all together or just penalized. The same goes for FFXI.

To those saying it is "ok" to cheat because FFXI is PvE and not PvP... I say this. Regardless of any game, if it is played with more than one player, ALL players must agree to the rules that the banker, referee, GM, or <insert game company here> states. Simple as that. What I don't like seeing now a days is people getting discriminated for NOT CHEATING. Yes... it is a big problem now on some servers. People are getting kicked from many parties for not exploiting this or not using this hack there. The community is rotting out from the core and the cheaters are bullying those who don't cheat... away from the game. Soon you will have a game that is dead and gone because everyone hacks and cheats to the top and if you don't follow suit you are left in the dust. It is no longer a fair game but a "game" of who can cheat best.
#229 Jul 01 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Default
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Camiie wrote:
Erecia wrote:
And, at the end of the day, I'll bet these players feel pretty **** good about themselves and sleep like a baby. They don't feel like they've broken some nonexistent unspoken code, or that their accomplishments are any less meaningful. They redesigned an event so that they can have satisfying fun with their friends. It's more than the rest of us do.


So, then where do we draw the line at where cheating is acceptable and when it is not? Why is it ok here and not ok where someone else might see an unfair system in place in their opinion? Who decides what constitutes unfair or even what is cheating and what isn't? SE? The playerbase as a whole? The most active and vocal members of the forums? There's a lot of aspects of the game I think are inadequate and unfair, and have gear I'd like within them. Would it be ok if I cheated my way through any and all of those as long as I'm comfortable with doing so?


Yeah, I'd like a kraken club. Should I dupe hack to get one because the odds of one dropping in a BCNM are low? It's what everyone is doing when they hack in Nyzul.

Go play in the test server if you want all of the best gear in the game. Simple solution.

Also, you have a choice to play FFXI or not. If you don't like the rules in the game, you can find another game that fits your taste. If you don't like the current rules, make a petition and send it to SE. Or vote will your wallet and cancel your account.

[sarcasm] And hurray to all the people that cheat that make such data so easily converted and replaced so this can happen: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1341105959300012125 [/sarcasm]

See what "Or you could not give a @#%^ since it has no direct effect on you." can get you? A direct quote from there... sigh...

Cheating and dat hacking will just make SE crack down harder on legit players. Harder anti-piracy laws. Restrictions on content downloads and lots of big brother programs on your computer that will KEEP you from cheating. Is that what you want? Cheating effects us ALL and I'm tired of people saying it doesn't...

Edited, Jul 2nd 2012 2:03am by Prrsha
#230 Jul 02 2012 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Quoted Text
Prrsha wrote:
detlef wrote:
What's with all the sports analogies? Athletes bend or break the rules all the time. Soccer players flop or pretend they didn't foul They pretend the ball didn't hit their hand. They pretend to be injured to be carted off the field, then hop off the gurney as and rejoin play. Basketball players intentionally foul, palm the basketball, travel, and flop. Baseball players pretend to get hit be the ball, doctor the baseball with pine tar and spit, and cork their bats. Football players hold on every single play, try to injure each other in the pile. Sometimes they intentionally injure each other. It ain't cheating if you don't get caught is a motto very deeply ingrained in society.

I think once you start using windower you're technically cheating. From there on out, it's just a matter of degree and for a lot of people it's just a matter of what you can do without being caught. Use windower? Then you can't really criticize others unless you can argue that they directly affect your gameplay.

Let's look at Vlorsutes. I have quite a great deal of respect for him because he has to tiptoe the line between endgame FFXIer, Alla admin, and frequent BG poster. He has quite a bit of Nyzul gear. I can guarantee that regardless of what his group did, he's proud of his gear, feels he earned it, and had a blast doing it.


It depends on the game really and what rules people will bend and break. In chess it is really hard to cheat because the rules are all cut and dry but most of all cheats are.... EASY TO SPOT. That is the key here. If refs in basketball games all saw every flop and every "cheat" they could enforce accordingly. The fact is that here in FFXI, the "cheats" are hard to spot sometimes, especially in this zone of the game. If the GMs have the tools to see who cheats... and when, I'd hope they'd ban the lot of them. The same with the refs in basketball. Just because a violation is caught unseen doesn't make it right? Just because a drug test in a sport comes up clean due to some sort of bribing doesn't make taking illegal drugs to have an edge in the Olympics ok? If someone thinks that, then shame on them. You'd better check your morality gauge. In real life people are penalized for breaking rules in sports. They can be banned from the game all together or just penalized. The same goes for FFXI.

To those saying it is "ok" to cheat because FFXI is PvE and not PvP... I say this. Regardless of any game, if it is played with more than one player, ALL players must agree to the rules that the banker, referee, GM, or <insert game company here> states. Simple as that.
Quote:
What I don't like seeing now a days is people getting discriminated for NOT CHEATING. Yes... it is a big problem now on some servers. People are getting kicked from many parties for not exploiting this or not using this hack there. The community is rotting out from the core and the cheaters are bullying those who don't cheat... away from the game. Soon you will have a game that is dead and gone because everyone hacks and cheats to the top and if you don't follow suit you are left in the dust. It is no longer a fair game but a "game" of who can cheat best.



This is very true, the pressure to cheat is so great now! It seems like you have two options now, either you play dirty or you quit.People make you feel like by not cheating you are doing something bad, shouldn't it be the other way around!
#231 Jul 02 2012 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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#232 Jul 02 2012 at 5:22 AM Rating: Excellent
cidbahamut wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:

There really isn't a gray area with this situation

If there was no gray area then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Come on Vlor, you're smarter than that.


If you look though, there's really not anyone that's sitting in the middle of the discussion, that aren't certain whether or not using those are necessarily good or bad. It's a pretty straightforward, split situation, with those in favor of it and those that are against it, and they're pretty much butting heads.
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#233 Jul 02 2012 at 6:15 AM Rating: Default
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Prrsha wrote:
Yeah, I'd like a kraken club. Should I dupe hack to get one because the odds of one dropping in a BCNM are low?

You can sell off a Kraken Club when you're done using it. You can't sell off Nyzul gear. If you and a bunch of other people duped some piece of R/Ex gear, it wouldn't impact me. If I was a K Club owner, and you and a bunch of other people duped K Club, I would probably get upset because the value of my K Club would plummet as a result.
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#234 Jul 02 2012 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:

There really isn't a gray area with this situation

If there was no gray area then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Come on Vlor, you're smarter than that.


Actually, there's really no gray area in this thread anymore. There are two categories of people vocalizing their opinions:

1) Cheating is wrong no matter the circumstances.

and

2) Cheating is right under circumstances where the design leads to unfair results.

I know people in Category 2 who cheat in Neo-Nyzul but don't cheat to the same degree (barring Windower plugins) in ANY other venue of the game. They cheat in Nyzul specifically because they think SE's design is unfair and "stacks the deck" against them even if they display optimal performance. Once they get their Nyzul gear, they move on to other events, content enough not to Clipper/flee-hack/etc again.

There will not be any significant movement of people between Category 1 and Category 2. As Vlor said, this thread IS now pointless.
#235 Jul 02 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Easy fix. Get SE to ban everyone with windower. Then the 3 people that dont use it can live in happy hippie land with no cheaters and still ***** about ps2 limitations because ps2s are all thats left. You can have the imaginary tight knit community because only cheaters are pricks and those that remain after The Windower Rapture would be wonderful people to share your time with.

Like it or not SE condones cheaters. They have turned a blind eye to windower and its affiliated programs for a decade. Trying to get into some semantic debate of over who's cheating MOAR is ridiculous. The ONLY hacks SE has ever taken any attention to are ones that involve either rmt or duping. Inaction against cheaters by big daddy se says more about their stance than the tos. Just like fighting Breaks the rules in hockey. There's a penalty and everything! Its even applied. Whooptie doo. Guess you better go tell all them fighters in hockey they are bad people or cheating. Let me know how that goes. About as well as getting windower banned. Its technically wrong, but no one gives a sh*t. I guess I'm just a morally corrupt sinner going to **** because I dont disapprove of all the cheaters in hockey.

Edit: Also what poltergeist27 said 100%.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2012 10:38am by Banalaty
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#236 Jul 02 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
Prrsha wrote:
Yeah, I'd like a kraken club. Should I dupe hack to get one because the odds of one dropping in a BCNM are low?

You can sell off a Kraken Club when you're done using it. You can't sell off Nyzul gear. If you and a bunch of other people duped some piece of R/Ex gear, it wouldn't impact me. If I was a K Club owner, and you and a bunch of other people duped K Club, I would probably get upset because the value of my K Club would plummet as a result.


You couldn't sell Salvage gear either but duping cells and base pieces turned out to be a big no-no. I would imagine all that duping created a better market for crafters on the materials needed for upgrades. Whether the result was neutral or a net positive for the rest of the server, SE still unleashed the mighty banhammer.

As a side note, I did post in the stagnating "NEO Nyzul 2.0" thread on the official forums basically asking SE if they see the rampant cheating as a sign that the event needs serious adjustment. I tried to express the sentiments put forth in this thread as best I could. I'm obviously not as eloquent as some here are, but you can't say I didn't try. It really wouldn't hurt anyone here to add their input to the thread. The worst that can happen is what's happening now right? Nothing? Besides you guys don't want ME to try to be the voice of reason over there, do you? Few in this thread seem to be fans of my reasoning so.. yeah... You don't want that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/23766-NEO-Nyzul-2.0/page55
Second post on that page.
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#237 Jul 02 2012 at 9:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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The worst that can happen is nothing? You dont know SE very well do ya?
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#238 Jul 02 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
The worst that can happen is nothing? You dont know SE very well do ya?


I thought it was "just like hockey" where fighting is cheating.... Wait? You mean the players don't hide what they are doing from the ref? They don't jump each other in the alley and break the legs of players on the opposing team while wearing masks so they can avoid the consequences of their actions?

If folks are doing nothing wrong, why don't y'all go post in the main forums about what you're doing? Oh, because what you're doing is NOTHING like the sort of cheating that gets you a two minute penalty - its like the kind of cheating that gets you banned from the sport (nancy Kerrigan style or doping style)

And for all those saying " oh my cheating affects no one else" that's bollucks. WOE shows that if no one does an endgame event SE will change it. But they certainly aren't going to change NNI except for the worse if a ton of people are maxed out on gear just a few months after.

Look, we all agree it is bad game design, but the fact is the reason why floor 100 is a 100 percent drop is because the "bad design" is supposed to be the factor that lowers the overall drop rates. So y'all cheat your faces off, and then those of us who believe in playing by the rules will be screwed because SE will think "oh look how easy that event was, next time we better up the randomness AND decrease the drop rates"

And there is pvp in this game, when I ask to join a party doing an endgame event I am TOTALLY competing against other players for a spot. If the leader has a choice between someone wearing decent gear obtained without cheating and someone decked out in the best from NNI - well who is going to get picked? Is it fair?

I know you guys are skilled and I know cheating this way isn't an instant win, but can't you understand that your actions DO in fact have an impact on other players because of the two factors? Like when it comes to me, since I am a noodling with mediocre gear at best it probably won't make the difference, but there are some really top flight players out there who won't cheat - and you have to admit, they WILL be looked down upon if they don't have the best of the best gear - or at least if they are competing for a party spot, they will lose.

And you have to admit SEs design can get more perverse, and if people get the gear faster than intended they will only make stuff more stupid, once again punishing players who don't cheat. Is that fair? That we ALL get more randomness and lower drop rates because some people were too impatient to wait until an event was fixed and cheated instead?
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#239 Jul 02 2012 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
I've been reading and expressing my opinion in this thread pretty much from the beginning and I find one thing truly fascinating. Not once did anyone not in a light blue name say that windower is cheating and that people should stop using windower. All of us said specificly the plug-ins being used to make the event "fair" are cheats. The only people who blanketed everything windower does as cheating and morally wrong and should be apart of our stance were the cheaters themselves. It was a logically stupid rebuttal and failed against me at the very least since I don't use windower but it served the task to inflame people into thinking that is our point of view. It isn't, so if you all want to continue thrashing about being angry about something we didn't say then knock yourselves out.

Btw this is also where the grey area is, what is cheating, and what isn't. Not weather or not it's morally right to use cheats in nyzul.

Any who, to say "well square hasn't done anything yet, thusly they obviously condone windower" is the most childish thing I ever heard. This is a massive case of "The cat is away the mice will play." For years square had been banning and suspending for people doing **** like this, So they aren't investing the resources to properly police the game and your going to assume that means they condone cheating? Is your goal to make this so common, so wide spread that when square does turn it's eyes back it's going to want to aggressively go after windower?

I have to admit I've been stupid here. Been so utterly side-tracked. A lot of the points being made here have already been answered but I was so caught up on "Is cheating morally right" they just faded in the back ground.

"Go do nyzul legitmently and see how many tries it takes to clear it. See you next year." This was already rebutted before this statement was made. Someone with the resources got a group together who did this legitmently. He said after a month or so of practice his group can get to and clear floor 100 about 1/5. So the notion that this event cannot be won, or would be way to random to win consistently is false. I think a 20% chance to get several best in slot gear is pretty good rate of return.

Another point made was that "We told square this event was to random and they did nothing." This is also false. Within a few weeks after release they listened to the player base. They made it so you can cap what floor you want to go to. They added a key item that allowed you to pick what item you wanted and get that Key item at a 100% rate. They also reduced the cost of temp items. At this point the people were already using cheats and it just got more widespread after that. Why would square adjust an event after that when so many people are getting gear? Hence mine and several others original point of, the more you cheat the less likely square will adjust the event.
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#240 Jul 02 2012 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:


"Go do nyzul legitmently and see how many tries it takes to clear it. See you next year." This was already rebutted before this statement was made. Someone with the resources got a group together who did this legitmently. He said after a month or so of practice his group can get to and clear floor 100 about 1/5. So the notion that this event cannot be won, or would be way to random to win consistently is false. I think a 20% chance to get several best in slot gear is pretty good rate of return.


If someone told you they have 20% win rate with no fillmode or .dat swaps they are lying to you or extremely lucky, most likely the former. You would know this if you actually did the event instead spouting false statistics. Most in this thread berating the "cheaters" probably haven't even done the event. Here are some actually quotes from the thread:

Toioiz wrote:
We've beat floor 100 3 times now, we average about 1 in 20 runs, and even then it's always down to the last 30 seconds and pure luck.

Note: This is with 4 relics and dual scholars.

A group with 4 relic users is averaging 5% with no fillmode or .dat swaps.

Sharain wrote:
According to friend they had been at it for 2 months before I joined, without ever reaching 100, so that's (8+4)x4 = 48 runs to get to 100 once.

So They reached floor 100 2.1% of the time at that point.

Quote:
Fast forward a few weeks and lots of strategy (stuff like at intersection so and so goes east, so and so goes west etc.) and we actually beat floor 100 twice within 4 runs (okay, we did get 1 and 2 free floors, respectively).


3 free floors in 4 runs (2 in the same run even) is extremely rare and is likely the reason for the success of the runs.

Xypin wrote:
My group has cleared floor 100 twice over 50+ runs.


So a >4% win rate

I was unable to find the post of someone winning 20% of the time with no fillmode or .dat swaps, but thats probably why you didn't quote it either. I would also like to know if any of these winning runs had order lamp floors.


Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

Another point made was that "We told square this event was to random and they did nothing." This is also false. Within a few weeks after release they listened to the player base. They made it so you can cap what floor you want to go to. They added a key item that allowed you to pick what item you wanted and get that Key item at a 100% rate. They also reduced the cost of temp items. At this point the people were already using cheats and it just got more widespread after that. Why would square adjust an event after that when so many people are getting gear? Hence mine and several others original point of, the more you cheat the less likely square will adjust the event.


The only thing from that list that reduced the randomness was the stopper and that should have been blatantly obvious, that if you jump ??? floors it shouldn't put you past 100. If SE was going to fix the event any time soon, they should have posted something.
#241 Jul 02 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe to reduce cheating and flee hacks, maybe we can have it where if you can make it to floor 60 it would offer you a chance to start at floor 20. And if you make it to floor 80 you can start at floor 40.
#242 Jul 02 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
Dantedmc wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:


"Go do nyzul legitmently and see how many tries it takes to clear it. See you next year." This was already rebutted before this statement was made. Someone with the resources got a group together who did this legitmently. He said after a month or so of practice his group can get to and clear floor 100 about 1/5. So the notion that this event cannot be won, or would be way to random to win consistently is false. I think a 20% chance to get several best in slot gear is pretty good rate of return.


If someone told you they have 20% win rate with no fillmode or .dat swaps they are lying to you or extremely lucky, most likely the former. You would know this if you actually did the event instead spouting false statistics. Most in this thread berating the "cheaters" probably haven't even done the event. Here are some actually quotes from the thread:

Toioiz wrote:
We've beat floor 100 3 times now, we average about 1 in 20 runs, and even then it's always down to the last 30 seconds and pure luck.

Note: This is with 4 relics and dual scholars.

A group with 4 relic users is averaging 5% with no fillmode or .dat swaps.

Sharain wrote:
According to friend they had been at it for 2 months before I joined, without ever reaching 100, so that's (8+4)x4 = 48 runs to get to 100 once.

So They reached floor 100 2.1% of the time at that point.

Quote:
Fast forward a few weeks and lots of strategy (stuff like at intersection so and so goes east, so and so goes west etc.) and we actually beat floor 100 twice within 4 runs (okay, we did get 1 and 2 free floors, respectively).


3 free floors in 4 runs (2 in the same run even) is extremely rare and is likely the reason for the success of the runs.

Xypin wrote:
My group has cleared floor 100 twice over 50+ runs.


So a >4% win rate

I was unable to find the post of someone winning 20% of the time with no fillmode or .dat swaps, but thats probably why you didn't quote it either. I would also like to know if any of these winning runs had order lamp floors.


Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

Another point made was that "We told square this event was to random and they did nothing." This is also false. Within a few weeks after release they listened to the player base. They made it so you can cap what floor you want to go to. They added a key item that allowed you to pick what item you wanted and get that Key item at a 100% rate. They also reduced the cost of temp items. At this point the people were already using cheats and it just got more widespread after that. Why would square adjust an event after that when so many people are getting gear? Hence mine and several others original point of, the more you cheat the less likely square will adjust the event.


The only thing from that list that reduced the randomness was the stopper and that should have been blatantly obvious, that if you jump ??? floors it shouldn't put you past 100. If SE was going to fix the event any time soon, they should have posted something.


Less than 4% still a better chance at gear then let's say... Voidwatch.
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#243 Jul 02 2012 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Look, we all agree it is bad game design, but the fact is the reason why floor 100 is a 100 percent drop is because the "bad design" is supposed to be the factor that lowers the overall drop rates. So y'all cheat your faces off, and then those of us who believe in playing by the rules will be screwed because SE will think "oh look how easy that event was, next time we better up the randomness AND decrease the drop rates"

At least the two sides of this argument seem to share on particular viewpoint: that SE is a bunch of complete idiots. The Neo Nyzul cheat users think SE is a bunch of idiots for the way they designed this event, and the anti-cheaters think SE is a bunch of idiots who will never notice and can't possibly make intelligent decisions without every single player boycotting this portion of the game.
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#244 Jul 02 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
Less than 4% still a better chance at gear then let's say... Voidwatch.

Dropping a bowling ball on my foot beats poking myself in the eye with a sharp stick. But I would rather do neither.
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#245 Jul 02 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:

Less than 4% still a better chance at gear then let's say... Voidwatch.


Instead of posting something pointless and unrelated, care to post the quote of the 20% win rate with no .dats swaps or fillmode, or an actual response to my post?
#246 Jul 02 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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I'd bet most groups that use Fillmode and .dat swaps still get about a 20-25% win rate, so I don't foresee a group without either coming close to approaching that. By the way, //fillmode (wireframe mode) is a built in feature of Windower. Even someone that runs windower without plugins can switch fillmodes.

My initial appraisal of NI post-astarium patch (in the BG Neo-NI thread) was that groups that play with a totally vanilla client will be better off shooting for 80 than 100. Now that we've learned how the jumps work (you reroll if you exceed your cap), I'm not entirely sure that's correct, but it's still close to right.
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#247 Jul 02 2012 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Vlorsutes wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:

There really isn't a gray area with this situation

If there was no gray area then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Come on Vlor, you're smarter than that.


If you look though, there's really not anyone that's sitting in the middle of the discussion, that aren't certain whether or not using those are necessarily good or bad. It's a pretty straightforward, split situation, with those in favor of it and those that are against it, and they're pretty much butting heads.
The gray area is exactly what is in question here. What's black and white is vanilla FFXI. Once you download and play with windower, you are technically a cheater. But using windower and windower plus clipper/apradar/dat mods/fillmode as the two ends of the spectrum, you can see everything in between is the gray area.

If you asked a dozen people on this thread how much cheating they are comfortable with, you may very well get a dozen answers. For some console players, once you install windower you are the devil. Some people might use the basic tools of windower (tpparty and distance) but no more. Another person might use scripts to make longer macro lines. Another more advanced player might use spellcast. Maybe you use lightluggage to help lot things while you're in dynamis. Or blinkmenot so that when someone swaps gear, you don't lose target and let them die. Maybe you love the convenience of gearcollector, which can automatically move gear into your inventory. Maybe you use dat swaps and fillmode in Nyzul, where it's essentially undetectable. And maybe you are the type of person who uses clipper and all bells and whistles and you feel justified doing that.

There simply isn't one answer. I don't think you can dispute that all the things I described are cheating. Some might affect other players in a subtle way, others simply offer convenience to the user. But not everybody will agree what is right and what is justified, so there you have your gray area.
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#248 Jul 02 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:

So, then where do we draw the line at where cheating is acceptable and when it is not? Why is it ok here and not ok where someone else might see an unfair system in place in their opinion? Who decides what constitutes unfair or even what is cheating and what isn't? SE? The playerbase as a whole? The most active and vocal members of the forums? There's a lot of aspects of the game I think are inadequate and unfair, and have gear I'd like within them. Would it be ok if I cheated my way through any and all of those as long as I'm comfortable with doing so?

Who decides what is acceptable? SE and the Playerbase. Its about agreement of what is acceptable between the parties.
What does 'fair' have to do with 'cheating' ? The rules could be that 'every elvaan get 1 mil gil at jp midnight, while non-elvaan players do not' Then a 3rd party tool which breaks this UNFAIR rule would be 'cheating'.
If the loudest members of the forum decided, then it would be 'pure democracy' (ie MOB RULE).

Would it be okay for you to cheat your way thru content? Whether its 'ok' or not is entirely based upon your beliefs. I don't care if you cheat thru it as long as it doesn't negatively impact me. Do you feel the EULA is something you really 'Agreed to' ? Do you feel a strong conviction of the 'terms and conditions' of this recreational activity that you would feel immoral to not abide by them? In solo games, you only cheat yourself. It is a question of what the experience means to you.

Personally I think the moral Implications of 'cheating' are lessened significantly in this context. The only moral issue imo is that of the 'agreement' between myself and SE.

I think the confusion and most the conflict comes from forum posters using and blending different definitions of Cheating.
I believe these 3 definitions apply to this discussion

Cheat:
1. To violate rules or regulations
2. To defraud or swindle; to deceive
3. Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage

The first is the definition which myself, and I believe most other who are defending 'cheating' are focusing on.
The regulation being violated is the use of 3rd party software in the EULA. No one is disputing that its a violation of the EULA. There are a lot of arguments about the validity of EULA's in general. Legal decisions have differed whether its valid or not.

In this context, the only parties which should be concerned would be between individual players and Square-Enix. It is understandable where other players might become concerned when the use of 3rd party tools impacts the game experience of others. In FFXI, this was most apparent in claiming HNM's when flee-hacking and claim-bots were being used excessively.

SE's interests will be mixed.
The business side wants to keep as many subscriptions as possible. IF 3rd party tools chase away customers, they will stomp on them. If 3rd party tools encourage customers they will ignore them.

Flee-hacking and claim-bots which significantly impact the competitive nature of the game will cause a negative effect. Most windower plugins will correct or improve user-interface limitations and enhance the game-play experience.

If Windower was disabled or could not longer be used, I think I would stop playing. However, I would be perfectly happy if they simply improved UI elements within the game. Then Windower would become obsolete.

The second definition of cheating includes defraud, deceive or swindle. I don't see how anyone is being deceitful. Even a player who is an obtuse, elitist jerks is not being deceitful. Most players who use windower or other tools are rather open about it. This openness rather says they are not deceitful. We like the game and want it to be a fun game to play together with others. However, we don't accept the lack of responsiveness from SE on several points of gameplay and/or user interface.
At this point it usually becomes a point of submissiveness. Do you agree or disagree that a player should be submissive to SE over these items.
If you want to condemn me for 'cheating' for not agreeing with the design and EULA, then my questions is "WHY!?" The answers I can imagine are not nice. So instead of listing them, I really would be interested in hearing some honest answers to that one.
Eula is civil, contract law. It is not criminal law. It is not "irrefutable, higher power law". It is about an agreement between me and SE.
This seems to me to be parallel to being angry at a co-worker for making more money than you/I do. I wouldn't be angry with them or judge them. Their contract over how much they make has nothing to do with me. I would try to get a raise, or improve my performance or find a new job.

The 3rd definition could apply.. slimly... Windower, dat swaps, and other tools do provide some 'advantage' over other players or over the 'game makers'... If you want to look at it from that perspective. However, this is only relevant in a competitive system. FFXI is by and large, NOT a competitive system. Nyzul Ilse 2.0 is certainly NOT a competitive system. You are not competing with other players for points, or standing or anything... Unless you really think that having shinier gear is a status symbol (in which case I will point and laugh alot)... There is very little player competition in this game, and the context of this thread certainly is not included.

Us 'Cheaters' have explained our position and complaints thoroughly in this thread. Ofcourse I think we have a valid position in the argument.

However, I want to hearWHY anyone is so offended at this? All I have heard so far about why, is that "cheating is evil and morally wrong". It really doesn't address the concerns or position as one such as myself at all. I am not a 'BG elitist'; I don't trash talk other players; I don't fit that category.
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#249 Jul 02 2012 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The new nyzule is a game design disaster, and that's at the heart of why people cheat to win. I think if there's one thing everyone in the thread agrees upon it's that S-E screwed up the implementation of this royally. The differences in opinion come from what each individual feels is the justified recourse to that ***** up. IE take matters into ones own hands to make the event winnable, or wait for s-e to make the next move and hope they actually DO make a move (which may or may not happen). Since the devs shyed away from abyssea the grindy nature of the new content has led to a changed mindset towards certain actions that reminice of several years ago. Look back to abyssea where drops were frequent and gear could be had without needing to win the lottery to get it. Look at the state of the game before abyssea entered the scene where HNM shells ravagely botted kings, dynamis shells made a select few people VERY happy and the rest got (mostly) generic armor, and getting help to do events was a bigger difficulty hurdle than actually winning the event (looking at you mercenary captain rank, the most prime offender among countless others). Then look at the state of the game now as it has evolved in the eight or so months since abyssea's last update.

See any differences? Similarities? Behavioural patterns that may or may have been more prevalent in any specific era? The truth is that during abyssea we saw the LOWEST levels of cheating, hacking, RMT, and otherwise shady behavior in the history of FFXI, simply because it wasn't necessary. Douchebaggery and elitism was at an all time low, and (most) people felt pretty content with their gear. Now what have you? I intend to try playing a little again, but I can see they've added unnecessary hurdles everywhere to make you sink more time into doing menial tasks. Just looking at AH.com and wiki/otherwiki I can see that most of the stuff people would want to wear costs several millions of gil each, from Walk of echoes accessory armors to the voidwatch 5 to 1 pulse panoplia attire. The cursed abjurations appear to not only be uncommon drops, the synthesis mats for those items have no reliable source. Orlmolu ingot.... the only way I could level my goldsmithing past 102, is used in every recipe. It has ONE source, Vanasarvick, and AH.com indicates servers that have gone 8-10 days with none in stock (last seen on some of the walk of echoes items spans nearly a month here and there...), Alchemy requires an eye of verthandi for every synth post 103 or thereabouts. Smithing/goldsmithing abuses thokcha ingots and palladian brass on recipies that are garbage resell and total loss of 500-800k a pop (every one of the Ugol attire armor pieces fits this category), and throws in a cloth and ingot that come from the provenance watcher fights. Meanwhile you have neo nyzule that rewards 5% win rate to the most elite of all players if they don't cheat.... relics or GTFO, and voidwatch with it's all too common 1/200-300+ body armor drops and random *** everything else reward system. Character progression is excruciatingly riddled with large time sinks no matter how you slice it.

I can sum up the heart of the problem in one phrase. THIS SH*T DOESN'T EXIST!! When camping the auction house in hopes some random item you want has been listed for the first time in a week (and hoping someone else doesn't gobble it up first or the price isn't hiked several hundred (or more) K, is stacked alongside the events that you can spam and rarely see the reward you want then yes the natural recourse is that people are going to bend the rules. It sucks to look at an objective and after analyzing it realize that the sum of your efforts will probably be thwarted by the random, number god regardless how well you perform, but ever since we went back to "more time...less reward, rare drops mean CHARACTER STATUS" we have seen more shady behavior.

Also I noticed my name was brought up earlier in the thread. My personal stance on the debate (and the whole FFXI itself honestly) is that it's just a game and whenever i log in I find something to do that looks fun, or log out and find something else to do if I can't. Between my college classes, full time job, and a certain someone I've found that I'd like to spend more time with( =^..^= <3<3 <3 ), I find it hard to enjoy FFXI's grindy content which leaves me feeling "meh" on the whole matter. I've used windower for years but never cared for the plugins or spellcast, never really needed them. There is a VAST gray area between true vanilla ffxi (pure white) and the guys that used the NASA bot to claim kings, PoS and flee hacked to save time, used radar tools to see invisible mobs, price fixed the auction house, MPK'd for claims and stole linkshell banks/scammed others for fun, and used every other dirty tool in the book. I wouldn't feel comfortable fillmoding my way through nyzule, or care enough to mess with the dats ( flee hacking is absolutely out, and that one IS detectable). But then again mesh models are hideous and I actually like looking at my character, so I wouldn't use them even if S-E had added that feature naturally anyway. The heart of the problem is still the fact that S-E screwed up, and in its current state Neo Nyzule isle is a broken event. You're damned if you do cheat, and damned if you don't. No matter what you do you lose. S-E holds all the cards, and the player can never win no matter what. That itself is the real problem in my book. By forcing players to either cheat or fail the event is moot to me, and unless S-E makes it realistically winnable floor 100 clears are an attestation to their shoddy design more than anything else.
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#250 Jul 02 2012 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Melphina wrote:
The heart of the problem is still the fact that S-E screwed up, and in its current state Neo Nyzule isle is a broken event. You're damned if you do cheat, and damned if you don't. No matter what you do you lose. S-E holds all the cards, and the player can never win no matter what. That itself is the real problem in my book. By forcing players to either cheat or fail the event is moot to me, and unless S-E makes it realistically winnable floor 100 clears are an attestation to their shoddy design more than anything else.

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
#251 Jul 02 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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/lightbulb >.> <.< >.>

That post gave me a thought for a funny webcomic. Comparing FFXI to restaraunts that use Articial Fillers
to make their products look meatier. The strip could be between a black mage and another mage (ends up being a time mage) in a kitchen. Time mage is making galkan sausages over a campfire (filled with logs) next to a sink with a clock on the front of it (time sink), and the conversation has something to do with adding artificial fillers and preservatives to FFXI's MSG's. Throw in a witty retort from the black mage or maybe a bacon mage reference or two and you'd have something lolworthy

/idea off

...yeeeah. I won't be doing that myself as my atristic talents are terrible (trust me, I can ***** up drawing stick figures), but if anyone actually wants to take the idea and turn it into something worth posting feel free. I'd laugh if I ever saw that >.> cause it totally fits the game right about now.


Quote:
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"


War Games.... awesome reference. Somehow that line always reminds me of The Westing Game

Edited, Jul 2nd 2012 7:34pm by Melphina
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