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Nyzul Uncharted: nice gear, cheater!Follow

#102 Jun 26 2012 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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It's fundamentally poor design of the game that:

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight
and
2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.

So why don't you tell me what other successful MMOs incorporate those two asinine elements.

This is thus no different an issue than Lamps being a giant bowl of bile. That's why I listed those things: They are all bad to intentionally bad game design that the players have developed workarounds for. If you want to decry any of those things, you have to decry all of those things. This makes you a cheater for just using FFXIclopedia, because you're using an external source to bypass the intent that you have to pretty much randomly click on everyone and every random ??? point in the whole world to progress in some quests.

They're all cheats. There is no 'tiering' here. Every method I gave is a workaround to sh*tty game design, and I guarantee you use two out of four of them at least. You don't get to be on the fence here: Either they're all cheats or they're all workarounds.

Do you see how stupid this sounds now? SE makes bad decisions constantly, players develop workarounds constantly. Sometimes SE fixes things, sometimes SE gets butthurt and bans half of their 5th percentile playerbase. In the end it's always SE's incompetence that cause the situation to begin with.

If you want a more fair parallel, it'd be like if you could only get to the 'upper' part of Yuhtunga Jungle through Ifrit's Cauldron when Rainy weather occurs on Firesday, which let's say is about once a RL month. Some players will park a Tractor mule on the upper ledge to get people up there, others will position hack up the ledge. Let's say a new HNM was up there that spawned once a week (more often than you could actually, legitimately, get up there).

Which of these is cheating? BOTH! Both methods are a workaround to poor design. One is a method that involves giving SE money to get around it (paying for the mule, likely a whole account lest the owner not be able to Tractor himself) while the other is a violation of the TOS.

But which one would people use? I'd say they'd rather get banned and not give SE money than give them extra money.


Edited, Jun 26th 2012 9:27pm by Raelix
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#103 Jun 26 2012 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
Raelix wrote:
It's fundamentally poor design of the game that:

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight
and
2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.

So why don't you tell me what other successful MMOs incorporate those two asinine elements.

This is thus no different an issue than Lamps being a giant bowl of bile. That's why I listed those things: They are all bad to intentionally bad game design that the players have developed workarounds for. If you want to decry any of those things, you have to decry all of those things. This makes you a cheater for just using FFXIclopedia, because you're using an external source to bypass the intent that you have to pretty much randomly click on everyone and every random ??? point in the whole world to progress in some quests.

They're all cheats. There is no 'tiering' here. Every method I gave is a workaround to sh*tty game design, and I guarantee you use two out of four of them at least. You don't get to be on the fence here: Either they're all cheats or they're all workarounds.

Do you see how stupid this sounds now? SE makes bad decisions constantly, players develop workarounds constantly. Sometimes SE fixes things, sometimes SE gets butthurt and bans half of their 5th percentile playerbase. In the end it's always SE's incompetence that cause the situation to begin with.

If you want a more fair parallel, it'd be like if you could only get to the 'upper' part of Yuhtunga Jungle through Ifrit's Cauldron when Rainy weather occurs on Firesday, which let's say is about once a RL month. Some players will park a Tractor mule on the upper ledge to get people up there, others will position hack up the ledge. Let's say a new HNM was up there that spawned once a week (more often than you could actually, legitimately, get up there).

Which of these is cheating? BOTH! Both methods are a workaround to poor design. One is a method that involves giving SE money to get around it (paying for the mule, likely a whole account lest the owner not be able to Tractor himself) while the other is a violation of the TOS.

But which one would people use? I'd say they'd rather get banned and not give SE money than give them extra money.


Edited, Jun 26th 2012 9:27pm by Raelix

Yay for not reading my post so this is my only response to your post. It sounds stupid becuase what you said is stupid.

And just so you know you would loose that bet. I play on 360 and only use the official windower on my pc.(Which I rarely use, I prefer playing on 360) So if you really want to list A resource specifically listed by square on their website as cheat I only use 1.
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#104 Jun 26 2012 at 10:51 PM Rating: Default
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
only use the official windower on my pc.(Which I rarely use, I prefer playing on 360)

Then you're just a naive idiot whining. I get it.

You still use the Wiki, cheater.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 9:58pm by Raelix
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#106 Jun 26 2012 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
jtftaru wrote:
What is the @#%^ing point of cheating in a game like this? The only person you're cheating is yourself.

The official rules are a bulltsh*t, frustrating challenge. Making up your own rules to make the event feasible and fun isn't cheating yourself - it's highly rewarding.

You sound like the type of person that supports authority on principle, no matter how sh*tty it is.


What's authority got to do with cheating yourself out of playing a game you're paying for? You sound like the sort of person who says stupid things for effect without thinking them through.

Don't attempt to try and make cheating out to be something noble or excusable - it's not. It's cheating. If you want to cheat then go ahead. No one cares. Just don't show off your gear like you earned it - you didn't.

If the event is too hard for you then go and complain on the official board or on here and like everything else in the game it will eventually get dumbed down until it's no challenge. Or if that doesn't work then don't do the event at all - if no one does it, SE will have to 'fix' it.

Downrange wrote:
I'm surprised to see community regulars come here and admit to cheating. And the excuses are not clever or noble, they are the same tired rationalizations used by cheaters since forever. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and one thoughtless act to destroy it.


Exactly.








Edited, Jun 27th 2012 1:37am by jtftaru
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#107 Jun 26 2012 at 11:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
It's fundamentally poor design of the game that:

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight
and
2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.
I realize this is an entirely different subject, but I'd like to point something out.

While I'd agree with you that from a logical, believability standpoint, gears-swapping is poor design, if it weren't for gear-swapping FFXI would have died a long time ago.

In other MMOs you level up a character, get it to cap, do some endgame, and before long you can have a gearset that is comprised of "best in slot" pieces. Sure, there may be a few situational pieces you can go looking for, but for the most part, when you've acquired your "best in slot" pieces, your character is done. This is why every time a game like WoW raises the level cap, there's a huge influx of new and returning players, and then not long thereafter a large quantity of quitters.

In FFXI, the ability to make gearsets for the minutest ability, spell, or situation is what keeps the game afloat. Once every melee has his "ultimate" TP gear, there's still his "ultimate" weapon skill gear, his "ultimate" Fast Cast set for Utsusemi, his "ultimate" evasion setup, etc. And whenever a new piece of gear or an ability is added or changed, those gearsets need to be tweaked.

I guess what I'm saying is, the poor design of mid-fight gear swapping turned out to be serendipity for FFXI.
#108 Jun 26 2012 at 11:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, why the **** has the unofficial windower ALWAYS had perfect clipping, and the official windower STILL has incorrect clipping?
#109 Jun 27 2012 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
You still use the Wiki, cheater.


Where in the TOS is there a non-diclosure agreement? Because a wiki is just sharing information. I don't remember signing a gag order.

Thank you, come again.

P.S. you make me laugh.
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#110 Jun 27 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It's fundamentally poor design of the game that:

1. Gear can be changed mid-fight
and
2. Gear is intentionally released that is only good for WSing, Casting, TPing, etc.


Eh, that's a matter of opinion... I've played plenty of games where mid-battle equipment switching is allowed and even encouraged. One such example is the Dragon Quest series. It doesn't even cost you a turn in battle to switch weapons.

Even if we look at games with non-turn-based combat, my main squeeze before this game was Diablo 2, and in that game gear could also be switched on the fly, and it even had a feature where two different weapon configurations could be swapped at the press of a button.
#111Raelix, Posted: Jun 27 2012 at 12:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, D2 came to my mind as well, but I know for a fact you can't switch weapons while attacking or using an ability, so you can not switch to Whirlwind swords to use Whirlwind then switch back to Frenzy equipment at the exact moment you start beating on something else. There's a solid 2-3 second lockout.
#112 Jun 27 2012 at 4:31 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
You know what Windower does? Solves the bullsh*t of not being able to alt-tab in a Windows environment.

You know what Spellcast does? Solves the bullsh*t of people wanting 100% optimization but only having six lines per macro.

Here's the best one:
You know what Wikis do? Solve the bullsh*t of nothing in this game being guided in the least and quests being sometimes totally random.


You're trying too hard here and getting way too upset about this. If you feel perfectly justified then there's little reason to get angry. Wiki is the sharing of information between players, which is what SE wanted us to do when they designed the game to be so purposely uninformative. They may not have expected us to do it in the form of a website but they did expect us to communicate with and share experiences with each other. To compare the sharing of info with altering game files or using flee or clipping hacks is just ridiculous.

Quote:
These are all methods of 'cheating' that I at least feel are perfectly justified because they solve SE-endorsed bullsh*t. Lamp .dats are pushing it a little, but in the same vein: SE is quite honestly too incompetent or arrogant to see the problem that induces the cheating.

We've tried calling SE in all these cases, and it just doesn't get anything done, so we deal with it ourselves.

So if you're gonna come around and start decrying, criminalizing, and witchhunting for Lamp .dats you'd best get on your high-horse campaign against Windower, Spellcast, and even Wiki use too, because everyone else using these things feel they are for good reason despite being 'cheating'.


So every time I find what I feel is a flaw with the game, I should just cheat my way around it in any way I see fit? I feel I have a good reason, so it's cool with you guys right? Fishing is annoying so I'll just bot it. Buying chocobo blinkers is too slow for me so I'll bot that too. Claiming Gukumatz is annoying so I'll claim bot it. Movement speed is too slow and chocobos can't go in caves so I'll just flee everywhere. I shouldn't have to do a quest to get past a door so I'll just walk through it. I need a preposterous amount of gil and even now the game doesn't spit it out fast enough, but my bank account is feeling fat right now so why not RMT?
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#113 Jun 27 2012 at 4:38 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Even if we look at games with non-turn-based combat, my main squeeze before this game was Diablo 2, and in that game gear could also be switched on the fly, and it even had a feature where two different weapon configurations could be swapped at the press of a button.


Still Diablo 2 didn't force you switch from your idle gear to your precast gear to your midcast gear back to your idle gear to drastically increase efficiency. The fact that SE also limits the gear swaps slots to 6 is evil especially since one of the slot can be taken up by a spell or ability.
#114 Jun 27 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
trying too hard [...] upset about this.[...] angry.

Let's start this off right: F*ck you Smiley: smile

I am none of these things. I just recognize a definite problem with Nyzul lamps. Your patronizing expose isn't necessary.

Camiie wrote:
So every time I find what I feel is a flaw with the game, I should just cheat my way around it in any way I see fit? I feel I have a good reason, so it's cool with you guys right? Fishing is annoying so I'll just bot it. Buying chocobo blinkers is too slow for me so I'll bot that too. Claiming Gukumatz is annoying so I'll claim bot it. Movement speed is too slow and chocobos can't go in caves so I'll just flee everywhere. I shouldn't have to do a quest to get past a door so I'll just walk through it. I need a preposterous amount of gil and even now the game doesn't spit it out fast enough, but my bank account is feeling fat right now so why not RMT?

You could not be missing the point harder.

Fishing system? Not bullsh*t. They fixed it. You tend to catch things whether you fish manually or by botting. You actually have to do things, but it also gives you something to do instead of casting ten times for one fish.

Buying chocobo blinkers? Not bullsh*t. It's not like you have a 5 minute window per day to buy as many as possible that a bot would get you any more in the end.

Claiming mobs? Not bullsh*t. The game doesn't randomly give your mob to someone else if you didn't claim with a bot.

Movement speed? Not bullsh*t. Travel time is a legitimate worldfeel thing. Gee, there's actually things that increase movement speed though, so you don't even have to cheat to get it.

Door that requires a quest? Not bullsh*t. If every 3rd time you used the door you had to redo the quest, but another quest required you to enter the door four times, that would be just silly and still borderline. Guess what: They just added ways around needing other people to get around Garliage and Eldieme doors.

Gil? Definitely not bullsh*t. See, now you're talking about violating something SE has finally done right and does keep a pretty good finger on. XI's economy is quite stable and fairly RMT free anymore.

The examples I gave are widely accepted because because they solve bullsh*t. That's the best descriptor I have for it, and SE definitely has a very special brand of it that calls for certain measures like the ones given. It's a categorization where player workarounds are or should be widely accepted (unlike your examples, which are plain cheats), and Nyzul Lamps definitely fall in there.

But if you'd read the whole ******* post and use your brain instead of rubbing your snobbish attitude everywhere, I was justifying just lamp .dats, not flee/clip tools. I'd throw a wild guess that half of Neo Nyzul run losses (coming up short anyway, so even if you manage a floor 80 boss) are because of lamps, and the other half are bad jumps (gee, another stupid luck mechanic). They are a sh*t mechanic and far too dynamic a 'puzzle' for such a hard-timed event.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 6:33am by Raelix
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#115 Jun 27 2012 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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You call it a problem with the Nyzul lamps, but you act as though you are somehow entitled to victory in Nyzul and that these lamps are hindering your just reward for paying a monthly fee for this game. Is your self esteem really that damaged that you need to get ahead in this game at all costs? Has your sense of entitlement overcome your sense of honor?

Yes, it's easy to justify; anything is. And let's not beat around the bush here, you know **** well that using the wiki or using a tractor mule aren't cheating. There may be gray area, but the things you listed are nowhere near it.

I know you're smarter than this, Raelix, but people say stupid things when defending their stupid decisions. I'll readily admit I've made stupid decisions, too. I used to swap Darter .dats for Fafnir camping, for example. I could justify it all sorts of ways, but suffice to say I have never swapped Nyzul lamps and never will (and yes, I do Neo-Nyzul frequently, so it's not that the temptation isn't there).
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#116 Jun 27 2012 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I dat swapped away the confluxes in abyssea. I did so because I dual box, and the confluxes cause irrational graphics card lag on my machine. Is that cheating? It is technically against the ToS. I'm also looking to dat swap the planar rifts for Voidwatch for the same reason. I also dat swapped several of the sound tracks. All against the terms of service.

If that isn't cheating, neither is dat swapping nyzul.
#117 Jun 27 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I seem to recall someone trying to argue dual boxing was cheating as well.

I think at the end of the day it's whatever you can live with yourself and still do. Myself personally, I don't want to do anything to lose my char, I've put too much time into him to chance getting him banned. Some people may not see it that way but I'm attached to my little Taru.
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#118 Jun 27 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I dat swapped away the confluxes in abyssea. I did so because I dual box, and the confluxes cause irrational graphics card lag on my machine. Is that cheating? It is technically against the ToS. I'm also looking to dat swap the planar rifts for Voidwatch for the same reason. I also dat swapped several of the sound tracks. All against the terms of service.

If that isn't cheating, neither is dat swapping nyzul.

One gives you a clear advantage over players who don't do the same, whereas the other gives no advantage. That's the key difference.

I guess you might say that both are technically cheating, but only one is an exploit?
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#119 Jun 27 2012 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I dat swapped away the confluxes in abyssea. I did so because I dual box, and the confluxes cause irrational graphics card lag on my machine. Is that cheating? It is technically against the ToS. I'm also looking to dat swap the planar rifts for Voidwatch for the same reason. I also dat swapped several of the sound tracks. All against the terms of service.

If that isn't cheating, neither is dat swapping nyzul.


So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?
#120 Jun 27 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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akaTulkas wrote:
So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?
You've taken the same action: swapping dat files. It's against the terms of service in either case. Its also undetectable by SE in either case. You can't have it both ways, either dat swapping is cheating or its not.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 11:13am by AshOnMyTomatoes
#121 Jun 27 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
akaTulkas wrote:
So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?
You've taken the same action: swapping dat files. It's against the terms of service in either case. Its also undetectable by SE in either case. You can't have it both ways, either dat swapping is cheating or its not.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 11:13am by AshOnMyTomatoes



You fire a gun for target practice outside a shooting range. You shoot at a target in your back yard against a tree with a forest behind it. It's a crime but mainly no one cares, somebody might call in a noise complaint. You use the neighbors dog as target practice. Suddenly everyone starts caring.

There in lies the difference.
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#122 Jun 27 2012 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Raelix wrote:
You still use the Wiki, cheater.

Where in the TOS is there a non-diclosure agreement? Because a wiki is just sharing information.

Cheating and breaking the ToS are not equivalent. There are areas where they overlap. There are ways you can violate the ToS without cheating (e.g. verbally harassing other players). And because "cheating" is an idea with some wiggle room, you can cheat without violating the ToS, depending on what your own personal view of cheating is.
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#123 Jun 27 2012 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
akaTulkas wrote:
So there's no moral difference between removing a glowing flux crashing your game, and changing nyzul lamps to read 1,2,3,4,5, and activate in that order?
You've taken the same action: swapping dat files. It's against the terms of service in either case. Its also undetectable by SE in either case. You can't have it both ways, either dat swapping is cheating or its not.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 11:13am by AshOnMyTomatoes


Well I'm not talking about breaking the ToS. Going by the letter of the law anyone who's checked a price on ffxiah is a "cheater."

I'm talking about, morally, you as a player changing the structure of an event to gain an advantage to complete the event vs changing a glowing object because your graphics card doesn't like it.
#124 Jun 27 2012 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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It's not entitlement to expect events to make some sense. At least in something like Salvage, you could reasonably expect to kill bosses you set out to kill, and it was still flawed. Wanting to beat Neo Nyzul, that's wanting your work to matter. How someone goes about that, cheating or .dat swapping or whatever you do, well that's the argument. But entitled? No, not at all.
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#125 Jun 27 2012 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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akaTulkas wrote:
morally
It's a video game, not an abortion.
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#126 Jun 27 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
akaTulkas wrote:
morally
It's a video game, not an abortion.

Next you'll tell me Hugh Laurie isn't really a doctor, and I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT!
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