Shouts in JeunoFollow

I never call causal "crap" player, since you can sometimes make up the performance with skill and practice, but being aggressive about improving performance by all means(including gears) or not is really the biggest difference. And I disagree with that it has something to do with your play time.

I have a friend who only log on and solo dyna for 2hr everyday when he build his relic, and finished a relic after a couple of months. He was very busy irl too, but all he did was log on and solo dyna, then log off, nothing else, so he can build a relic for his job. Do you have 2hrs of play time a day? If not, at least 1.5 hours? Go solo dyna for 1.5 hours whenever you have a schedule open and not busy, log off after 1.5 hours, it's going to take longer, but it's doable. And there are no schedule, so you don't need to log on when you need your family and friends etc. If 1.5 hours still too much, then 1hour maybe? Just going to take 4 months to build it instead of 2 months.

If you don't even have 1hour of play time, then idk what else you can do when you log on really, considering playing with friends often takes longer just to gather.

The main problem is, life of logging on ONLY for dyna is boring as hell, not to mention doing it for months if you don't have other source of income. Majority of players play the game for fun, play the game with friends, daily dyna solo is something many players would rather choose not to do. However I know more than 1 person in this game with busy rl, don't play everyday, and only play 2 hours a day but still has relic, just because they're very persistent about getting the best weapon.

Then they moved to Nyzul for more best ex/rare, Nyzul takes 30 min a tag, if you do 2 tags a night you can finish them in 2hours of play time also, including gathering time. Provenance run, 3x BC+dragon takes 1hour, add gathering or /shout time it's about 2hours too. Honestly, you can do every event that offers top gear with 2 hours of play time a day, and there are 0 needs to do it every day since there are no attendance, just do it once a week whenever you're free(nyzul static requires more time commitment though) This game is already very busy ppl friendly compare with 75 era, but doesn't mean it's walk in the park for everyone.


That's really the main difference between hardcore and causal, causal play the game for fun. Dwell on forum and watch vid, fits inv with 240 situational gears, parse every fight and read numbers, grind gears for 0.0001% increase, or make connections to get things done, those are a pain in the *** and not everyone enjoys, so ppl with causal mind set may as well just don't care.

It is entirely possible to have good performance with just skill and still get things done. And it is entirely possible to get harder things done without super elite gear.....you just have to invite other players with super elite gear to fit in the important role and take the less important roles yourself. Is it a crime not to get bothered with top performance? Certainly not, and probably better that way since RL>FF. But saying R/E/M has "nothing" to do with how well you play is something I don't entirely agree...I can't invite none R/E/M DDs to harder NM like Provenance if I'm making a /shout pt....SAM or DRK can get away with TP bonus/OAT, at bare minimum(and even those weapons are pushing it....you need way more than just those weapons to catch up). MNK and WAR not having appropriate weapon just increase the chance of wiping and wasted 1hr of effort for 18 ppl. Is it possible to kill it without any R/E/M in pt, and just purely skill based? Maybe. But why do it hard way when you have the choice to do it easy? R/E weapons are everywhere on the street, if pt lead is a recruiter, it is natural to hire someone that's more competent. R/E being a requirement isn't really because you can't "clear" without it(spend 29 min to kill a NM with zombie is still a win), it's just the result of more and more ppl getting them, setting the standard higher, and ppl without them can't compete.

Saying R/E/M are hard to build is also not entirely correct when it only takes 2 hours to solo, you used lv 75 as an example, but relic was way harder to build back then, and it offers even less performance upgrade compare with nowadays. Honestly, this isn't lv 75 anymore. R/E weapons are everywhere on the street, and doesn't need 8 hours of play time a day to build one, a solo player with very little play time and no set schedule can get one as long as he insists. Some empy just make that much difference nowadays, and doesn't take that long to build one.

This is why I find it funny when people complain about the game being too easy, because those same people have this mentality. Those people don't want a challenging game, they just want an exclusive one that makes them special while leaving whoever they deem unfit out in the cold. That's what they and Tanaka really hated about Abyssea. It's the great equalizer, but people who use video game accomplishments to justify their existences can't have that.




More competent? Really? Show me how that's the case. You've never seen an idiot with uber fancy gear before? You've never outperformed a R/E owner with while you were using a standard weapon before? Count yourself supremely lucky.



Two hours to solo what? You are not doing any of those weapons from start to finish in 2 hours or 8 and you're not soloing them either. For an emp the regular NM trials alone will take you more than 8. A single pop has the potential to take more than 8 though I admit that's unlikely. It took me most of an hour to get Megalobugard to spawn once last night. That's 1 spawn out of 4. Your notion is already shot down and we haven't even got to Abyssea yet.

You and Camiie have essentially described a facet of human nature that transcends not just this video game but almost all competitive gaming, and explains various human behavior outside video gaming to boot. While observant, the first thing I think should be noted is that the desire for challenging content does not always go hand in hand with the desire to be "special". To use a personal example, I am quite literally bored every single time I enter Abyssea now because the content has been rendered so mind-numbingly easy and toothless that I find myself counting the minutes till it is over. My desire for more challenging content in that case is hardly explained by any need to distinguish myself from others. It is explained by my desire to keep the #^%@ awake and not just feel that I am in a glorified chat room with pretty lights mashing the same macro over and over again. On a related note, see this handy post for the dangers in generalization:

http://www.zam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1336145881308396847&h=50&p=1#35

The second thing to note is that until one can say with 100% certainty that he/she would NOT idle in that Borealis, that Asteria, that Delphinius, that Ephemeron, that Porthos Byrnie, that Aytanri, that Sagasinger, that Hedera Cotehardie, that Drachenhorn, that <insert your own rare/special drop here> as a badge of your "specialness", even just in town, then one will not be impervious to the very type of behavior you highlight and impliedly condemn.

Edited, May 21st 2012 5:04pm by Poltergeist27

This so much. I cannot stand going into abyssea as whm (blm and sch it's slightly more tolerable). There is 0 challenge and it wouldn't matter if I even had any gear on or not. It has nothing to do with wanting to be more special than everyone else. I like to do new challenging events and figure out different strategies, not run around hitting the cure5 macro and being bored out of my mind because it doesn't matter what gear I wear as long as I use some atmas.

Edited, May 21st 2012 5:36pm by Dantedmc

OaT GSWD is crushing Cada, period. I've gone over it above already, ultimately OaT gives you more WS's which enhanced the majority of your damage. Cada gives you higher melee damage which enhances the minority of your damage. You also have to waste a Ws on Torcleaver instead of Res and possibly hold TP till 300 mid fight to "keep AM up". I'm at a 80/20 split, how can you possibly argue that the 20 is better then the 80? It's the exact same situation with OaT Lance vs Emp, you go for more total WS damage.

Masa debate has also been settled, Shoha beats Fudo unless your at capped attack and both crush Kaiten. Shoha gains a 30% damage bonus going from 100 to 200 TP. SAM's have an even higher WS/Melee split then DRKs and DRGs, nearly all their damage comes from WS's. Nearly all those JA's are useless in big fights as every other melee is spamming WS's. I've said it many times, 90 Masa and 99 Kano are right about even with Masa pulling ahead on anything you can SC against. Voidwatch is the place where the Masa can overtake the Kano but only because you can get 50~100 TP Bonus in atmacites and Shoha scales poorly from 200 ~ 300. Again your talking about a very small margin, a few percentage points.

People are crapping on those three for a reason, SE played favorites when it made Emps and DRG / SAM / DRK were on the losing team. Later instead of fixing the lower powered Emps SE instead release merit-able WS's that stomp their predecessors into the mud. So now anyone can just use merits to get the ultimate WS's of awesomeness and tailor a weapon specifically to cater to those awesome weapons.

When did I say 90 masa beats TP bonus GKT? I had lv 99 Amano in pt, and as far as I know, it's better than TP bonus. Lv 99 masa also beats it as far as I know. As for DRKs, Rag is also the best weapon and all the DRK and WARs in pt are usually using Rag(WAR with 2hr). How'd OAT even beats Rag especially with embrava......

You're the one who isn't paying attention to best gears regarding jobs. TP bonus GKT isn't the best, so does OAT GS. I highly doubt OAT PA beats lv 99 relic under the effect of embrava too, but I'm no DRG, and usually don't invite DRG to Provenance, so I'll just not offering any comment regarding PA. And there's no way I'd believe OAT GS beats Rag.

Majority of R/E/M is still the best weapon for those jobs, especially at 99. Just cuz many ppl been using 85 empy and doesn't know how to use them properly, doesn't mean it's not. Relic GS for WAR and DRK, Mythic GK for SAM, those weapons aren't easy to beat with other trial weapons.

Also, last Provenance watcher run I did it was dead in less than 2 min. Gl getting a bunch of TP bonus SAMs killing it in under 2 min.

No, I'm not saying OAT GS or TP bonus is gimp, it gets the job done, and I will still invite them if I can't get better DDs, but it's not the best as you said, not when I had lv 99 Rag and lv 99 Amano/Masa in pt.


And stop posting parse with just % but nothing else, it means nothing. I can post Parse of OAT DRK in Provenance beaten by Rag DRK and WAR by over 9% too, or Amano 99 SAM beating other SAM too, there's no point.




Edited, May 22nd 2012 12:22am by Afania

Logging on and soloing dynamis for 2 hours every day only is not what I would call casual, that is freaking hardcore. Anyways, with all the different weapon trials, there is something for everyone with different time commitments. Its just a shame that there is only one acceptable path and I fear it might set a precendent for future upcoming content.

*Cough* you really might want to be read what I stated again.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Saevel

I said Emperian's were not the best, I made no mention about 99 Relics, those are a different story, and the Mythics pretty much beat everything.

85~90 Emp is the most common your going to find, period. You do a /shout for "Empy DD onry" and your going to get a 85~90 Emp weapon. 1500 plates @110K is 165M, 60 cinder/dross at 500K is 30M. 195M to go from 90 to 99, yeah your not seeing many of those.

You concept of DD'ing is wrong, horribly so. That parse was to demonstrate that gear is not the defining characteristic of damage, knowledge, preparation and quick thinking are. That was me as a Jingang GSWD DRK beating out, by a large margin, two Empy WAR's (85 and 90), Empy MNK (90) and a 95 Gugnir DRG. And while I didn't time that fight, Kala was dead before the timer on Bergressor was back up. I'm not the one who does the LS parsing, that's our THF / NIN / COR, I need my filters set so that I can stun moves, see procs and keep track of effects mid-fight.

Also Embrava does nothing for the different weapon class's, it's capped haste and a high regain effect. The OaT's benefit the same as the Emps / Relics do, if your over-tping constantly then your simply not fast enough and are not anticipating when your TP will be full. Assuming 20% DA (/WAR + minimal gear) and 40% OaT Rate (possibly 45 @99, not enough info) you get an aggregate 52% chance of two attacks per round. With a 5-hit your first hit is the WS leaving four attack rounds remaining. Any proc in the first three attack rounds has shaved your X-hit off by one, essentially you go from a 5-hit to a 4-hit. There is an 88.95% chance of that happening (at least one out of three DA procs), further two procs in the first two rounds means you went from a 5-hit to a 3-hit, there is a 27.04% chance of that happening. A proc on the fourth attack round is meaningless for WS rate but does increase your WS damage by ~3% thus it's not completely wasted. The chance of your swinging three times and getting absolutely no DA procs is 11.05%.

So as you can plainly see, the OaT weapons easily shoot past the Emps and damn near the 99 Relics in total damage. That OaT GSWD that you have a 5-hit on is actually a 4-hit most of the time and occasionally a 3-hit. 11.05% 5-hit, 61.91% 4-hit, 27.04% 3-hit. If you happen to have more then 20% DA in gear, or if the OaT's are 45%, then the numbers of 3-hit/4-hit goes up with 5-hit going down.

Now for whats really being said. You and many others like you are angry that a mere "trial weapon" is beating out your super weapon. A weapon that anyone can build, that is dirt cheap to upgrade to 99, that any lowly peasant can create with minimal time investment is on par and even better then the Emps that you and your friends prize. I'm not the one who made made resolution, shoha, or stardiver so easy to acquire nor so awesome in power (though Shoha does leave alot to be desired). I'm just taking what SE made and doing the best I can with it, the same as everyone else. Does owning a R/M/E make you a better player then others? Nope. If it's used as a gauge for a players skill level then you will fail. Instead make a list of players you've met in Pil / Akvan / Kaggen / Qilin / Aello / ect.. fights who seemed to know their stuff and be on their game.

-=Edit=-

Also it's wasn't one WAR beating another by 9% or me beating the good WAR by 10%.
Good WAR: 39200 Damage
Bad WAR: 20492
Me: 58477

Good WAR beat the bad WAR by (39200/20492) by 91.20%, nearly double damage. They both have Ukko's and the difference from 85 to 90 isn't that big. What you have is a difference in attention / focus / JA management / Macro management and Temp Item Management. That accounted for more damage difference then any amount of gear possibly could and is the key reason you should judge players by their skill and not by their gear level. I also didn't cherry pick this one, there are others that are FAR more damning. I used this one because I knew the players involved, knew their skill levels and ability to focus. I knew it wasn't a bunch of gimps noobing it up.

Edited, May 22nd 2012 11:12am by saevellakshmi

Cognative Dissonance, that's what you have.

At no point in time did I ever say Relic / Mythics were weak. If you would of pulled the broom handle out of your 5th point of contact and check ffxiah you would of seen I have a Rag, that Parse was from before I got it.

I said, and I'll say it again, that of the five heavy DD's (SAM WAR DRG MNK DRK), only two of them have good Emps (WAR MNK) with SAM's emp being ~meh~. DRK / DRG's emps suck as SE chose to give them relatively weak WS's. I stated that for DRK / DRG the OaT weapons were better then their Emp weapons. That for SAM the 99 TP Bonus is equal to the 90 Masa in most situations, and the few situations that Masa would beat it a Draco Couse and StarDiver would beat them both. I then proceed to disprove not only you but several others about exactly how good those specific "trail weapons" were.

You also mentioned them as being required, upon which I demonstrated that they most certainly are not required. Me parsing at the top at 16% on Crystal Dragon with a 99 Kano disproved that instantly. What is required is players who are focused and know their stuff.

So now that this has been cleared up, who exactly is the one clutching at straws and resorting to Ad Hominem.

90 Empyrean from pure DD WAR beaten by 99 Double Attack weapon from a magic based DD DRK.

By 49%.

I can guess which way SE's future adjustments are going to go.

"Step 1. Ignore factual math."
"Step 2. Pay attention to emo's on forums."
"Step 3. Nerf job I play."

Yes I am. I'm under no obligation to be otherwise. I don't see a problem here.



Not having a legendary class weapon and not using proper gear/food are vastly different things. You were clearly talking about the former. If you meant the latter you should have said so.

You have right to be biased, but then your point won't convince me.






I was addressing different issue, yes. Not having legendary weapon and not getting invite is the result of competition. Not using proper food/gear are just not being responsible for the role he/she is playing and not caring everyone else's time.

As I said before, it is pt lead's responsibility not to wipe to a VW and waste 18 ppl's time, if pt wiped, it's none other to blame but pt lead, since it's pt lead's fault to invite weaker DDs. I mostly made my own VW pt, and if I don't want to wipe and waste everyone's time, of course I invite strong DDs over weak ones. So if I'm making dragon pt, I got /tell from 3 Rag DRK, and I've seen parse that they're not gimp relic DRK either, and ally only had 3 spot for DRK(other spot filled with MNK WAR SAM etc).

Are you asking pt lead to invite none-relic DRK over relic DRK in such situations and put 18 ppl's time at risk? On a VWNM many PUG easily wiped due to lack of dmg? If one DRK is able to outparse Relic with none-relic, sure, I will gladly invite them. But as previously stated by other posts, the skill/attention to detail/fast reaction required to parse high with other weapon is much higher, and not a lot of player can try this hard. It's probably harder to find a DRK that can parse No.1 with a none-relic, and actually easier to find a Rag DRK parse No.1.

So far I haven't seen any none-rag DRK parse No.1 on dragon unless there are no relic/empy 99 in pt, or pt has death/miss stun, or DD doing proc(which caused the parse go inaccurate) I have no reason to kick relic DRK and replace it with none-relic ones for less dmg until someone can pop and prove that he can win with other weapons.

When you make pts, best DD gets DD spot, is that so unreasonable? Relic became a requirement is the result of competition, that other DDs have relic, so none-relic DDs are hard to compete without one unless you have extremely superb skill.

And certain weapon become requirement or not really depend on what everyone else have. I don't make Mythic GK being a requirement, even though it's the best. Why? If I make Mythic GK a requirement I'm not going to get anyone. But Rag is bandwagon, when 3+ ppl in pt has Rag, it's hard for other weapon user to compete and get that DD spot unless his/her player skill is vastly superior to relic owner. But that isn't the case either(some Rag owners I know just happened to be very skilled and doesn't gimp)

Now you're going to say I "hate" "unfit" player because I don't invite them as DD. Honestly, is it the end of the world that you don't get to do VW as DD? Come mage job, BLM, WHM or SCH. Those jobs has lower gear requirement and just need skill. But DD spot just has high requirement if you want to lower the chance of wiping, that's just the way it goes, ppl will try to make an event go as smoothly and as fast as possible, and avoid wasting hours of 18 ppl. Idk why you bring up "easy mentality" talk, If any pt lead purposely invite weaker DD due to wanting a challenge, I'd say this pt lead is retarded and not respecting other ppl's time. Inviting friend(who doesn't have other mage jobs) for clear may be acceptable as long as pt lead can let other DD spot fill with strong DDs, but nobody should ever purposely invite weaker DDs due to wanting a challenge. Hell even I don't invite friends to DD spot for harder VW if I know their DD is weak. Not that I'm being mean to friends, just that pt lead shouldn't let personal favoritism run over team efficiency when there's risk of wiping.

I've heard plenty of dragon PUG wipes, and the reason is none other but weak dmg. Weak dmg pt still has a chance to win with zombieing until 3 sec left, but any pt lead with sense of responsibility would try to avoid that as much as possible, and should try to make a pt with good dmg as much as possible(I'd rather not pop and risk everyone's time if pt isn't strong enough for dragon). You can see it as running a company. You want to use the best ppl you can get on that slot, and get as much profit as possible so everyone in the team earns more money. You fire any unfit members and should try to avoid favoritism. Purposely make less profit for the company and everyone else is just being a ******, nothing more.

Not to mention ppl have the option to make their own /shout pt if you really really want to play a job nobody want you to play and invite other hardcore DDs to cover the dmg? It is totally not the end of the world if a player has no legendary class weapon.

And not using proper gear/food is straight not responsible to the role you're playing. Not able to get in to the pt due to lack of legendary class weapon is one thing, you have the option to play other jobs and still be a good team member with good performance. Doing 36 ukko on Ocythoe with buff, or 117 avg resolution(with COR buff too) on Ganuab and do 1%~2% total, this is just not acceptable. Those ppl are making other DDs doing more work, cause higher chance to wipe when they leech a spot and get same chance as everyone else for loot.

Do I "hate" those "unfit" player? Probably not to the point to "hate". But when other DDs spent their time to skill up, spent millions on gear, spent money on RCB, and have same amount of chance to get drop as players that doesn't skill up, doesn't spend time to gear, doesn't eat food and just leech a spot. Do you think it's fair?

I don't think it's fair at all. Anyone who really value every pt member's time and take it seriously won't find it acceptable either. If you think inviting weaker DD over strong one for challenge, and not having proper food/gear and do 117 avg resolution and 1% on DRK is acceptable, then I have nothing to say. I value my pt's time, call me "hating unfit player" all you want. But all I know is everyone else who joined VW /shout pt is happy with an efficient pt that doesn't wipe and kill fast, and I've never met any player actually having fun with wiping to the dragon or spend longer time on BC+dragon, I'd say my POV largely matched most of the player base and just reflecting pt member's expectation, sorry if it doesn't fit your standard, but your standard isn't everything.












Do you also mean dragon when you mention zerg? Last time when I did dragon zerg(fight lasted less than 3 min) Rag won by about 4%, and Hoarfrost DRK had better gear. Seems that white dmg is what made Rag pulled ahead.



Edited, May 23rd 2012 5:46pm by Afania

Edited, May 23rd 2012 5:55pm by Afania

Edited, May 23rd 2012 6:05pm by Afania

Edited, May 23rd 2012 6:07pm by Afania