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Best DD Job now?Follow

#202 Nov 26 2012 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Recap time:
Post 1 - There are times when you do still need people that put out a lot of damage.

Post 2 - There are a very limited selection of weapon/job combinations that satisfy that requirement and the gap between those weapons/jobs and the alternatives is very large, in my experience.

Post 3 - More explicitly stating that the gap between people that do a lot of damage and people that don't have the right job/weapon combinations is very large.

In summary, if you don't have a good weapon/job combination then you're so far back from the people that do have those things that you're effectively not a DD in high performance events when compared to them. I don't know why anyone cares about my choice of non-magian, non-R/M/E example weapons, because they're all so much worse than the ideal weapons that it's honestly not even worth considering performance increases from trading one for the other. If you're like the OP and you're asking a question about what the best DD is, then the honest answer is "You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.

I'd say these are the DD weapons for each job:
DRK - Ragnarok, (Liberator)
WAR - Ukonvasara, Conqueror, (Bravura, Ragnarok)
SAM - Kogarasamune, Masamune, Amanomurakumo, (Yoichinoyumi) <--- The first is much better than the last three, but all four work to a degree and excel against different targets
DRG - Ryunohige (40% better than Gungnir, which is better than Rhongo)
MNK - Verethragna, Spharai, (Glanzfaust) <--- With the qualification that monk damage isn't very strong against high enough level targets

If you don't have one of those yet and want to go DD to play around, grab a high level GS and do it. Don't invest in Borealis cells if you're building towards one of the above options. Please keep in mind that the preference may switch around (for instance, in the event of a Resolution or Shoha nerf), but it's unlikely that the unlisted 1H jobs will ever suddenly become competitive because of the way in-game damage calculations work. Also, keep in mind that some weapons do passable damage and serve a more utilitarian purpose (like Apocalypse), so they might be desirable for other reasons. That doesn't mean they'll suddenly do good damage in Mul, it just means that you might prefer being a mediocre DD that can solo on DRK.

Edited, Nov 26th 2012 5:32pm by Byrthnoth
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#203 Nov 27 2012 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
"You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.


All things being equal take that 99 weapon, and exchange it for the 90 version. How much will your damage decrease?

Serious question, I'm trying to quantify what difference percentage necessitates such dramatic language i.e., "respectable" "terribly balanced" "utterly useless".

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#204 Nov 27 2012 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Fermion wrote:
Quote:
"You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.


All things being equal take that 99 weapon, and exchange it for the 90 version. How much will your damage decrease?

Serious question, I'm trying to quantify what difference percentage necessitates such dramatic language i.e., "respectable" "terribly balanced" "utterly useless".



Those terms are elite speak for: I punched this sh*t into a calculator and it ended up being good, mediocre, or subpar. Having good gear to some makes them think they are instantly respectable. Personally id trade most jackasses with a 99 R/M/E for a guy with an AH weapon, because the majority of folks out there lack the only important statistics that players provide. Common sense and job knowledge. Frankly the majority of these folks that wander around in elite gear do so because they have just spent time farming easy *** sh*t.

R/M/E weapons are meaningless in describing the value of the majority of people who hold them. While they may be the best mathematically in practice only people who know how to use their jobs, and use them sensibly can reach this point. The proc based easy *** content has destroyed any notion of what the words, respectable, terribly balanced, utterly useless mean based on a player description, that being said, their mathematical use is still entirely viable.

But ya Id trade most R/M/E holders for a guy with an AH weapon, who knows their *** from a whole in the ground. In the end even they provide more to the group overall. Despite lacking a top tier weapon.

and I guess to answer your question directly, the best is the best, the rest gets tiered out as it goes. Each % value is different to anyone, what might be good to you could be mediocre to someone else. But again, it all depends who is operating the job behind the weapon, its easy to put it on paper and say voila, in practice it doesn't always work that way.





Edited, Nov 28th 2012 12:05am by rdmcandie
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#205 Nov 27 2012 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Fermion wrote:
Quote:
"You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.


All things being equal take that 99 weapon, and exchange it for the 90 version. How much will your damage decrease?

Serious question, I'm trying to quantify what difference percentage necessitates such dramatic language i.e., "respectable" "terribly balanced" "utterly useless".



Those terms are elite speak for: I punched this sh*t into a calculator and it ended up being good, mediocre, or subpar. Having good gear to some makes them think they are instantly respectable. Personally id trade most jackasses with a 99 R/M/E for a guy with an AH weapon, because the majority of folks out there lack the only important statistics that players provide. Common sense and job knowledge. Frankly the majority of these folks that wander around in elite gear do so because they have just spent time farming easy *** sh*t.


Wut...

Only on =10 do people start equating AH gear > 99 R/M/E.

Thanks for the lulz.
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#206 Nov 27 2012 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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TheBarrister wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Fermion wrote:
Quote:
"You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.


All things being equal take that 99 weapon, and exchange it for the 90 version. How much will your damage decrease?

Serious question, I'm trying to quantify what difference percentage necessitates such dramatic language i.e., "respectable" "terribly balanced" "utterly useless".



Those terms are elite speak for: I punched this sh*t into a calculator and it ended up being good, mediocre, or subpar. Having good gear to some makes them think they are instantly respectable. Personally id trade most jackasses with a 99 R/M/E for a guy with an AH weapon, because the majority of folks out there lack the only important statistics that players provide. Common sense and job knowledge. Frankly the majority of these folks that wander around in elite gear do so because they have just spent time farming easy *** sh*t.


Wut...

Only on =10 do people start equating AH gear > 99 R/M/E.

Thanks for the lulz.


I imagine you would be one of those with R/M/E that could be cut for an AH weapon holder. If you don't know how to play the job, your weapon means ****.
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#207 Nov 28 2012 at 4:23 AM Rating: Good
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#208 Nov 28 2012 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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Fermion wrote:
Quote:
"You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.


All things being equal take that 99 weapon, and exchange it for the 90 version. How much will your damage decrease?

Serious question, I'm trying to quantify what difference percentage necessitates such dramatic language i.e., "respectable" "terribly balanced" "utterly useless".



In the most favorable case (for Empyreans), going from 90 to 99 only gains you about 15-20% damage. In general this difference is magnified by other gear differences between someone that is willing to drop 200mil on a weapon and someone that isn't or doesn't play enough to.

For Ragnarok, going from 95 to 99 is only a 7% increase in base damage, 5 acc increase, and +3% critical hit rate. The difference between the two should be unparseable. Thing is, though, if someone is willing to spend 60-80mil (depending on server) on a 7% increase in base damage then they've obviously exhausted other ways to spend gil on the job and obviously care about maximizing its performance. Thus they're generally better than those at 95.

Temper the above two paragraphs by accepting that >50% of FFXI's players are terrible at the game and will dramatically underperform their potential regardless which weapon they have / just got it because it was shiny / are bandwagnaroks.
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#209 Nov 28 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Fermion wrote:
Quote:
"You aren't going to be a really respectable DD until you have a good level 99 Mythic, Empyrean, or Relic." Please note that I keep bolding the word Good, because having a 99 Rhongo doesn't make you a DD. There are plenty of terribly balanced and utterly useless weapon options at the moment within those three categories.


All things being equal take that 99 weapon, and exchange it for the 90 version. How much will your damage decrease?

Serious question, I'm trying to quantify what difference percentage necessitates such dramatic language i.e., "respectable" "terribly balanced" "utterly useless".



Those terms are elite speak for: I punched this sh*t into a calculator and it ended up being good, mediocre, or subpar. Having good gear to some makes them think they are instantly respectable. Personally id trade most jackasses with a 99 R/M/E for a guy with an AH weapon, because the majority of folks out there lack the only important statistics that players provide. Common sense and job knowledge. Frankly the majority of these folks that wander around in elite gear do so because they have just spent time farming easy *** sh*t.


Wut...

Only on =10 do people start equating AH gear > 99 R/M/E.

Thanks for the lulz.


I imagine you would be one of those with R/M/E that could be cut for an AH weapon holder. If you don't know how to play the job, your weapon means sh*t.


Good luck in your quest, gimp.




Edited, Nov 28th 2012 1:11pm by TheBarrister
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#210 Nov 28 2012 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Temper the above two paragraphs by accepting that >50% of FFXI's players are terrible at the game and will dramatically underperform their potential regardless which weapon they have / just got it because it was shiny / are bandwagnaroks.


^ which is why classifying weapons based on math alone is the only true aspect of comparison. Just because someone has a sweet awesome weapon doesn't mean they know how to use it.

Quote:
Good luck in your quest, gimp.

Have fun living in abyssea and voidwatch scrub.

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#211 Nov 28 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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#212 Nov 28 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
Temper the above two paragraphs by accepting that >50% of FFXI's players are terrible at the game and will dramatically underperform their potential regardless which weapon they have / just got it because it was shiny / are bandwagnaroks.


^ which is why classifying weapons based on math alone is the only true aspect of comparison. Just because someone has a sweet awesome weapon doesn't mean they know how to use it.

Quote:
Good luck in your quest, gimp.

Have fun living in abyssea and voidwatch scrub.



Good to know I'm done with War now that my Gaxe is 90. Whoohooo, all that NNI mercing and ADL farming for gil is free money I can use to buy AH gear and instantly become best in class at my jobs since R/M/E 99 = opposite of best.

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#213 Nov 28 2012 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'll take an AH WAR that eats pizza, rocks Upheaval, and keeps a 90%+ hitrate than an Ukon owner scrublet who barely keeps 65% hitrate, even if the Ukon still 'wins' by ~2% or whatever in somebody's napkin math on that.
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#214 Nov 28 2012 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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Things I learned from this topic: you either have good gear, or you don't have that great of gear but you're an excellent player and do everything right all the time. There is no middleground or combination possible.
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#215 Nov 28 2012 at 8:56 PM Rating: Default
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Raelix wrote:
I'll take an AH WAR that eats pizza, rocks Upheaval, and keeps a 90%+ hitrate than an Ukon owner scrublet who barely keeps 65% hitrate, even if the Ukon still 'wins' by ~2% or whatever in somebody's napkin math on that.


I'd take that choice too. But I'd take the Ukon guy who maintains that hitrate over the AH scrublette first. Or'd I'd take me first. But that's not a choice in this discussion. In this discussion, all 99 R/M/E suck and all AH people are the jewel of the nile. I need to be on the look out for these people. I heard they wear perle and aurore. Are there any other signs of this amazing, yet undiscovered talent lurking beneath the surface.



Edited, Nov 29th 2012 8:41am by TheBarrister
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#216 Nov 28 2012 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Raelix wrote:
I'll take an AH WAR that eats pizza, rocks Upheaval, and keeps a 90%+ hitrate than an Ukon owner scrublet who barely keeps 65% hitrate, even if the Ukon still 'wins' by ~2% or whatever in somebody's napkin math on that.


I'd take that choice too.



Of course you would, the Ukon WAR is a tool, and shouldn't be in a group.

Also Majority does not mean all it means most. as in

Quote:
R/M/E weapons are meaningless in describing the value of the majority of people who hold them.


Edited, Nov 28th 2012 11:25pm by rdmcandie
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#217 Nov 28 2012 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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I note people that suck and don't invite them back to shout events. If I'm choosing between two people that I trust to not be idiots, it's always the smart move to choose the one with the better weapon.

For instance, I run a Legion group at the moment. We have:
99 Ragnarok/Ukon - Taru
99 Apoc/Ragnarok - Taru
99 Apoc/Ragnarok - Elvaan
99 Ragnarok - Hume
99 Amano/Yoichi - Elvaan
99 Masamune - Hume
90 Ukon/99 Gungnir/95 Amano - Hume
90 Ukon/Ochain/Aegis - Mithra
99 Bravura - Elvaan
Hoarfrost - Mithra
99 Spharai/Ryunohige - Mithra

They're all good players and we need 6 DDs with at least one Tomahawk and ideally two. Who goes what job to Legion?

99 Ragnarok/Ukon - Taru
99 Apoc/Ragnarok - Taru
99 Apoc/Ragnarok/Ochain/Aegis - Elvaan
99 Ragnarok - Hume
99 Amano/Yoichi - Elvaan*
99 Masamune - Hume
90 Ukon/99 Gungnir/95 Amano - Hume
90 Ukon/Ochain/99 Aegis - Mithra
99 Bravura - Elvaan*
99 Ryunohige - Taru
Hoarfrost - Mithra
99 Spharai/Ryunohige - Mithra
* Doesn't always show up

Tarus have to play too conservatively to be viable in Mul, so they're knocked out of the running.

- That leaves me with two WARs, one of which doubles as a Paladin.
- The other Paladin has a 99 Ragnarok and parses either first or second on DRK every Mul so he goes that.
- Thus I have the one WAR go PLD, and my other 1~2 WARs go WAR and have 1 or 2 Tomahawks for Botulus.
- We have the Spharai/Ryuno go DRG because 1H weapon users suffer an excessive Ratio penalty when dealing with high level targets.
- If both *'d peoples don't show up, we end up having the Hoarfrost guy go DRK because there aren't really any other options.
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#218 Nov 29 2012 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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#219 Nov 29 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just because someone has a sweet awesome weapon doesn't mean they know how to use it.


Typical cop out argument that has nothing to do with "Best DD Job now?".
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#220 Nov 29 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't get it, isn't the question of what job will do the most damage if the only variable is the job and not the player? If so, why all this discussion of brain-dead, drooling R/M/E wielders and fine-tuned, incredibly skilled AH players?
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#221 Nov 29 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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detlef wrote:
I don't get it, isn't the question of what job will do the most damage if the only variable is the job and not the player? If so, why all this discussion of brain-dead, drooling R/M/E wielders and fine-tuned, incredibly skilled AH players?


Because some people are felted.
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#222 Nov 29 2012 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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detlef wrote:
I don't get it, isn't the question of what job will do the most damage if the only variable is the job and not the player? If so, why all this discussion of brain-dead, drooling R/M/E wielders and fine-tuned, incredibly skilled AH players?


It was mentioned because someone brought up what the words meant, and their are two definitions to the words used (good/mediocre/subpar.) On paper you can make one choice, in practice that choice isn't always accurate. If you are dealing with a complete pleeb who has a sweet as weapon, yet parses a few % higher than someone who knows their **** using a not so sweet *** weapon, the best bet is to stick with the guy who knows his ****.

It is entirely relevant to the topic. A WAR might be the best on paper, yet the person behind it might be a a useless husk. The only way to judge best is by finding people who preform optimally. In some case that might not be a WAR. Just because it shows up on paper doesn't deem it entirely truth, **** is situational as they say.

WAR may have the most potential, but good luck finding one who can actually hit that potential.
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#223 Nov 30 2012 at 8:41 AM Rating: Default
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Vlorsutes said..
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Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).


So are you trying to tell me in terms of DD endgame.. my MNK is a bit lower on the tottom pole..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/gl0Bn.gif[/img] And if so , by how many damage points in terms of maybe over a course of 10 min.. ?

| WAR, DRK, SAM
|
| DRG
|
| <--- MONK ..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/caN1c.gif[/img]
|
| Some other job
|
| Some other job
|
| Some other job
|
| Some other job

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 9:44am by AlexFitz

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 9:44am by AlexFitz

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 9:45am by AlexFitz
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#224 Nov 30 2012 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
WAR may have the most potential, but good luck finding one who can actually hit that potential.


Good luck finding anybody who lives up to the potential of any of the jobs they play? Why do you people always feel the need to point out what is implied by human interaction? Do you really think somebody out there, even just one person, on the entire planet, thinks that the human race has the exact same reaction times and thought processes, like a bunch of penguins? Who's the bigger ******* here, the people you love to lambast for providing math, or you, for thinking everybody else is too stupid figure out the crap you spew?
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PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#225 Nov 30 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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TybudX wrote:
Quote:
WAR may have the most potential, but good luck finding one who can actually hit that potential.


Good luck finding anybody who lives up to the potential of any of the jobs they play? Why do you people always feel the need to point out what is implied by human interaction? Do you really think somebody out there, even just one person, on the entire planet, thinks that the human race has the exact same reaction times and thought processes, like a bunch of penguins? Who's the bigger @#%^ here, the people you love to lambast for providing math, or you, for thinking everybody else is too stupid figure out the crap you spew?


Why so angry? I never once discounted the math, but there is no reason to take a job just because of its weapon if the person behind the character doesn't try to reach there full potential. It is why I would take an AH geared WAR over a R/M/E WAR, if that R/M/E war isn't dusting the AH war on the parse. I would rather have a guy who parses 5% less than the R/M/E guy, because when that guy gets his R/M/E he is going to demolish the other one.

Frankly Id rather surround myself with people who try to hit their potential, and even if they are limited in gear selection show that they have a head on their shoulders. It doesn't matter if you have an R/M/E if you can't play the job no amount of gear is going to save you. The player aspect is the most important aspect of the game, math is nice to prove a point, but at the end of the day it comes down 100% entirely to the person playing the game, and just because you have a nice weapon doesn't mean you are the best DD.

Is that elitest, sure it is, but you want to be the best DD, then you better learn how to play the game first.


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#226 Nov 30 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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But if someone asks "What is the best DD job now (because I am trying to decide what I should gear)?" the answer isn't "Well, that depends who is playing the job!"

The answer is, "If you're pretty casual and don't want to build a R/M/E or a magian, Dark Knight. If you do want to build a R/M/E, a selection of these weapons/jobs."

If it's a bad player asking the question, then they're going to be a bad DD regardless which job they pick. I'd prefer to assume that they're competent and just answer the question, though.
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#227 Nov 30 2012 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
TybudX wrote:
Quote:
WAR may have the most potential, but good luck finding one who can actually hit that potential.


Good luck finding anybody who lives up to the potential of any of the jobs they play? Why do you people always feel the need to point out what is implied by human interaction? Do you really think somebody out there, even just one person, on the entire planet, thinks that the human race has the exact same reaction times and thought processes, like a bunch of penguins? Who's the bigger @#%^ here, the people you love to lambast for providing math, or you, for thinking everybody else is too stupid figure out the crap you spew?


Why so angry? I never once discounted the math, but there is no reason to take a job just because of its weapon if the person behind the character doesn't try to reach there full potential. It is why I would take an AH geared WAR over a R/M/E WAR, if that R/M/E war isn't dusting the AH war on the parse. I would rather have a guy who parses 5% less than the R/M/E guy, because when that guy gets his R/M/E he is going to demolish the other one.

Frankly Id rather surround myself with people who try to hit their potential, and even if they are limited in gear selection show that they have a head on their shoulders. It doesn't matter if you have an R/M/E if you can't play the job no amount of gear is going to save you. The player aspect is the most important aspect of the game, math is nice to prove a point, but at the end of the day it comes down 100% entirely to the person playing the game, and just because you have a nice weapon doesn't mean you are the best DD.

Is that elitest, sure it is, but you want to be the best DD, then you better learn how to play the game first.


What you are discounting is that this game is not that hard and ultimately the only differentiator is the hardest to obtain pieces. By the time you have a 99 R/M/E, you better be dusting others with the same "skill" if they can even be said to have that.

"Player skill > gear" is an excuse used by people who don't have the gear.

Are there exceptions? Sure.

Does this mean the exception should become the rule because Mr. Charity Case wants it to? No. (Although if you want to gimp yourself because one parse did not reveal a complete demolishing, by all means, gimp yourself...it is far easier to teach someone to play a FFXI "job" than to go from AH weapon to 99 R/M/E.)

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 12:50pm by TheBarrister
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Byrthnoth wrote:
But if someone asks "What is the best DD job now (because I am trying to decide what I should gear)?" the answer isn't "Well, that depends who is playing the job!"

The answer is, "If you're pretty casual and don't want to build a R/M/E or a magian, Dark Knight. If you do want to build a R/M/E, a selection of these weapons/jobs."

If it's a bad player asking the question, then they're going to be a bad DD regardless which job they pick. I'd prefer to assume that they're competent and just answer the question, though.


I don't dispute that, I completely agree with using math to set the benchmarks. What I do not agree with is stating that someone with an R/M/E is explicitly better than someone without one. Since it was brought up earlier by someone stating that they would take the WAR with an AH weapon who parsed 2% less than the R/M/E WAR I am simply trying to state that math is not the end all be all.

The question of best DD job was answered by you, and I agree with your position, however I also agree with the fact that just having one of the top weapons associated with the specific jobs does not make you a top DD.

I too would take the AH weapon WAR who parsed only 2% less, because when/if that WAR ever got his R/M/E he is going to be a top DD. Stupid is a very hard thing to improve on, and all the gear in the game often does not help, id go with the guy who shows he obviously has the ability to hit the potential, and I am sure you would too. If some guy showed up to your legion group, and he sucked, would you bring him back next time? or find someone else that you have had experience with?
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#229 Nov 30 2012 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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What you are discounting is that this game is not that hard and ultimately the only differentiator is the hardest to obtain pieces. By the time you have a 99 R/M/E, you better be dusting others with the same "skill" if they can even be said to have that.


You should stop kidding yourself. Just because someone invests time doesn't mean they are actually good. Building a R/M/E really takes no skill at all, it takes time, you continually farm easy content like dynamis, or dreadfully easy content like abyssea and earn your tokens to get a weapon.

These weapons are not some glorified status symbol of ability, they are symbols of "I put in X time and got my reward" they are not hard to obtain, just time consuming.

And I would hold greater respect for an AH WAR who parses anywhere close to an R/M/E WAR, and denying that this does not take place on a daily basis is blatant ignorance, id wager less than 10% of R/M/E weapon holders can actually poses the skill set to hit the mathematical potential. That leaves a large portion of the population who are replaceable, and that includes by folks with AH or equivalent items.

You can call it gimp, but I will call it an investment, because when those "gimp" AH players who parse as well as those elite R/M/E folks get an R/M/E, they will blow them away because they actually know what the @#%^ they are doing.

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 1:05pm by rdmcandie
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#230 Nov 30 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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AlexFitz wrote:
Vlorsutes said..
Quote:
Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).


So are you trying to tell me in terms of DD endgame.. my MNK is a bit lower on the tottom pole..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/gl0Bn.gif[/img] And if so , by how many damage points in terms of maybe over a course of 10 min.. ?

| WAR, DRK, SAM
|
| DRG
|
| <--- MONK ..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/caN1c.gif[/img]
|
| Some other job


Mnk and 1-hander jobs cap Ratio at 2.0, whereas 2-handers cap at 2.25. This starts having a serious impact once you're fighting high-level mobs. A level 120 mob has 1.05 level correction, so the absolute max cRatio you can reach on mnk/1-hander is 0.95, while 2-handers cap at 1.20. That means 2-handed jobs have a 26% higher damage potential, based -solely- on their max cRatio.

The other issue is accuracy. Aside from the weaker dex:acc conversion, 2-hander jobs with 99 relics get 40 accuracy from the weapon, whereas 1-handers and H2H get 40 attack. That 40 attack is definitely nice, but is likely to leave you at maybe a 75% hit rate, even when using pizza, against the highest level targets. Madrigal is needed to reach cap.

As best I can figure, max potential for mnk is about on par with max potential for drg (drg is maybe 5% ahead, actually, unless the mnk is also getting Haste Samba), though it takes more outside buffs to reach that max for mnk. Meanwhile, max potential drk is about 25% ahead of max potential drg.

Other 1-handed jobs aren't exactly a 'bad' choice compared to mnk; for example, nin's max is only about 5% behind mnk's. [Edit: Actually, that's with Kikoku; with Kannagi, nin is tied to slightly ahead] Aside from the top 3 jobs (drk, war, sam), most other jobs actually tend to have fairly similar max potentials, and could probably be considered roughly equally desirable. Drg stands out as needing fewer outside buffs (particularly accuracy) when approaching its max, plus Angon utility, making it more desirable than mnk in the general sense.

The real issue, however, is the rather substantial gap between the top three jobs and everyone else, which means nobody gives any real thought towards any of the other options.


Edited, Nov 30th 2012 12:45pm by Kinematics
#231 Nov 30 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
What you are discounting is that this game is not that hard and ultimately the only differentiator is the hardest to obtain pieces. By the time you have a 99 R/M/E, you better be dusting others with the same "skill" if they can even be said to have that.


You should stop kidding yourself. Just because someone invests time doesn't mean they are actually good. Building a R/M/E really takes no skill at all, it takes time, you continually farm easy content like dynamis, or dreadfully easy content like abyssea and earn your tokens to get a weapon.

These weapons are not some glorified status symbol of ability, they are symbols of "I put in X time and got my reward" they are not hard to obtain, just time consuming.

And I would hold greater respect for an AH WAR who parses anywhere close to an R/M/E WAR, and denying that this does not take place on a daily basis is blatant ignorance, id wager less than 10% of R/M/E weapon holders can actually poses the skill set to hit the mathematical potential. That leaves a large portion of the population who are replaceable, and that includes by folks with AH or equivalent items.

You can call it gimp, but I will call it an investment, because when those "gimp" AH players who parse as well as those elite R/M/E folks get an R/M/E, they will blow them away because they actually know what the @#%^ they are doing.

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 1:05pm by rdmcandie


I agree with you that these weapons are not some glorified status symbol of ability. They are a symbol of time put into a job.

Where we disagree is that I believe it takes less time to master a job's level 99 concepts than it does to get these weapons yourself.

Where we also disagree is that if an AH WAR is parsing anywhere close to an 99 R/M/E WAR, there is probably a logical explanation besides: "Most 99 R/M/E are idiots so most of the time I'll chose the AH guy". It's far more likely that the 99 R/M/E player is AFK on auto-attack than because they somewhere were a blithering idiot that managed to do nothing but invest the time getting a level 99 R/M/E without learning simple aspects of their job.

This game is really not that complicated.
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#232 Nov 30 2012 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Kinematics wrote:
AlexFitz wrote:
Vlorsutes said..
Quote:
Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).


So are you trying to tell me in terms of DD endgame.. my MNK is a bit lower on the tottom pole..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/gl0Bn.gif[/img] And if so , by how many damage points in terms of maybe over a course of 10 min.. ?

| WAR, DRK, SAM
|
| DRG
|
| <--- MONK ..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/caN1c.gif[/img]
|
| Some other job


Mnk and 1-hander jobs cap Ratio at 2.0, whereas 2-handers cap at 2.25. This starts having a serious impact once you're fighting high-level mobs. A level 120 mob has 1.05 level correction, so the absolute max cRatio you can reach on mnk/1-hander is 0.95, while 2-handers cap at 1.20. That means 2-handed jobs have a 26% higher damage potential, based -solely- on their max cRatio.

The other issue is accuracy. Aside from the weaker dex:acc conversion, 2-hander jobs with 99 relics get 40 accuracy from the weapon, whereas 1-handers and H2H get 40 attack. That 40 attack is definitely nice, but is likely to leave you at maybe a 75% hit rate, even when using pizza, against the highest level targets. Madrigal is needed to reach cap.

As best I can figure, max potential for mnk is about on par with max potential for drg (drg is maybe 5% ahead, actually, unless the mnk is also getting Haste Samba), though it takes more outside buffs to reach that max for mnk. Meanwhile, max potential drk is about 25% ahead of max potential drg.

Other 1-handed jobs aren't exactly a 'bad' choice compared to mnk; for example, nin's max is only about 5% behind mnk's. [Edit: Actually, that's with Kikoku; with Kannagi, nin is tied to slightly ahead] Aside from the top 3 jobs (drk, war, sam), most other jobs actually tend to have fairly similar max potentials, and could probably be considered roughly equally desirable. Drg stands out as needing fewer outside buffs (particularly accuracy) when approaching its max, plus Angon utility, making it more desirable than mnk in the general sense.

The real issue, however, is the rather substantial gap between the top three jobs and everyone else, which means nobody gives any real thought towards any of the other options.


Edited, Nov 30th 2012 12:45pm by Kinematics


Why does Monk benefit from haste Samba at all?

(480+51)*.2 = 106
(280+51)*(1-x) = 106
X = 68% Haste
43.75% from Magic, 25% from equipment, Monk shouldn't benefit at all unless they're swapping pieces of gear out?
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#233 Nov 30 2012 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Why does Monk benefit from haste Samba at all?

(480+51)*.2 = 106
(280+51)*(1-x) = 106
X = 68% Haste
43.75% from Magic, 25% from equipment, Monk shouldn't benefit at all unless they're swapping pieces of gear out?


Eh, because I was being lazy and only dealing with 99 relics, so had Spharai in place. Spharai needs slightly more haste to fully cap. All I checked was whether DPS changed when I added Samba.

Optimizing for Vere, though, shows that I made a mistake in using Spharai as a basic comparison. Vere ends up almost 25% ahead of Spharai when pushed to the max limit. However it also requires a higher def down effect in order to be fully effective. At 10% def down, Vere is 15% ahead of Spharai; At 20% def down, Vere is 25% ahead of Spharai; if the mobs have significant crit evasion, the lead drops down to less than 10% (8% for my quick check).

So there's more variability there, with mnk pushing ahead of drg more than I initially figured. However it's a bit more difficult to make sure it's viable on the support side.
#234 Nov 30 2012 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Where we disagree is that I believe it takes less time to master a job's level 99 concepts than it does to get these weapons yourself.


This is where I gotta disagree with you. I'm constantly running into DD's who have good gear / macro sets but haven't mastered the timing required in super high haste situations (zergs). The single biggest problem I see DD's using is they wait for the WS animation to finish before going back to TP set and end up spending an attack round or two in WS gear. The second biggest problem is they don't anticipate when their TP will be at 100 and wait till they see the bar fill up. In high haste situations if your waiting that long then chances are your TP is higher then 100 when you hit your WS macro.
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#235 Nov 30 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Where we disagree is that I believe it takes less time to master a job's level 99 concepts than it does to get these weapons yourself.


This is where I gotta disagree with you. I'm constantly running into DD's who have good gear / macro sets but haven't mastered the timing required in super high haste situations (zergs). The single biggest problem I see DD's using is they wait for the WS animation to finish before going back to TP set and end up spending an attack round or two in WS gear. The second biggest problem is they don't anticipate when their TP will be at 100 and wait till they see the bar fill up. In high haste situations if your waiting that long then chances are your TP is higher then 100 when you hit your WS macro.


I agree that even many 90 Empy weapon holders (not just 85 ones) who are top 3 DD do this. However, I run into this less frequently with 90 R/M/E DRK/SAM/WAR than I do with AH weapon holders. I have counted the times I've seen that happen with a 99 R/M/E holder of these jobs and it's zero. So my disagreement is that if you are going to go with a general rule of thumb, generally 99 R/M/E will be the wiser choice than AH holders. Therefore, it's retarded to choose AH weapon holders over 99 R/M/E most of the time because in one situation out of 1,000 an AH guy came close (within 5%) of a 99 R/M/E holder.

It is far easier to write a sentence: "Hit your WS macro 1.5 seconds before you fill up to 100 TP and watch that bar" a few times for 99 R/M/E weapon holder (among the other basic job functions such as gearing for task) than it is for a AH weapon holder to acquire 200,000,000 + gil, buy the materials for a 99 R/M/E and get the other parts of that accomplished. One takes a lot less time. That's really all there is to it.

You all can keep arguing the exception exists. I agree to that. The rule exists far more often.
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#236 Nov 30 2012 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So my disagreement is that if you are going to go with a general rule of thumb, generally 99 R/M/E will be the wiser choice than AH holders. Therefore, it's retarded to choose AH weapon holders over 99 R/M/E most of the time because in one situation out of 1,000 an AH guy came close (within 5%) of a 99 R/M/E holder.


<.<

Maybe you have me confused with RDD, I never made the statement to ever accept AH over 99 R/M/E, only that I knew several 99 R/E holders who didn't know about those about items. I've had to correct them and demonstrate how much of an effect those two issues have in high haste situations.
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#237 Nov 30 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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You shouldn't need 200,000,000 + gil to be able to play top content. That's asinine. Crikes, I play games for fun, not as a second job. People are really out of line to expect that. And the developers are really out of line to create content that leads players to expect that. Maybe for 1 ultimate epeen fight or something, sure, require that, but for multiple events? It should be doable with reasonable to obtain gear and weapons.

There should be more of a point at which there is a declining returns on ridiculous amounts of effort time, but it seems like it is opposite. The game shouldn't punish people for not playing like a full time job. I'm okay with there being some edge but 20+ per cent is way out of line. 2% more base damage and a shiny glow? Sure! Yeah go ahead - farm 300,000 iron giant farts for that, I don't care.

But having that much spread between a weapon that a casual but good player can obtain and a weapon that you need to spend all your year's allocation of vacation time doing mind numbingly boring things to obtain? (no thanks)

I might think differently if getting one of these weapons actually took some kind of skill but all it takes is the ability to do repetitive, mind-numbing tasks over and over and over and over and over again.

So, it is a little grating to have folks assume you're an idiot because you don't have one. Some of us just have other stuff to do. If we're at cap and have some decent weapons/armor we should be able to log in and play 98% of the content -at release- with minimal effort (not wait until it's outdated)

Extreme maybe? I don't know. But this game has enough problems as it is without continuing down this path of dividing the casual/hardcore playerbase so much. I mean it really doesn't encourage people to resub for new content if they know that they will be snubbed by people if they want to do it because they didn't feel like logging in daily to farm dynamis for endless months... it's like "oh yey, new content, I can't wait to do that 8 months from now!"

I'm ranting here but one of the reasons I like to play casually is because I get bored doing the same thing over and over, so making it so I have no choice but to do old content over and over if I ever want to play new content is a good way of discouraging players like me to give the company money.

I'd rather have a lot of different content that (at least at the lower tiers) is welcoming to casual players. So anyone can start to farm any content, instead of having to go through some torturous labyrinth of repetitiveness for content you may not want to do at all to even get in the gate. That way if you want to start your R/EX journey with legion instead of farming abyssea seals, why the ffff not? The amount of content at any one tier should more closely follow the actual percentage of players on that tier.

1% of content for the 1%.

80% of content for the 80% etc.

Edited, Nov 30th 2012 5:00pm by Olorinus
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#238 Nov 30 2012 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
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I believe it takes less time to master a job's level 99 concepts than it does to get these weapons yourself.

Considering this has been true of the game pretty much since relic weapons came out, I can only imagine how awful it is now. Gawd... what kind of people even still play this game?
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#239kimjongil76, Posted: Nov 30 2012 at 11:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) A rag War/drk is the best damage dealer period for melee.
#240 Dec 01 2012 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
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kimjongil76 wrote:
A rag War/drk is the best damage dealer period for melee.

A BLm is best hard nuker, while a Sch can Destroy anything with DoT the best.

Any other job, falls second or lower.

Period.


Thanks for finally weighing in, champ. I'm sure everyone will come to an agreement now that you've clarified things.
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#241 Dec 01 2012 at 5:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You shouldn't need 200,000,000 + gil to be able to play top content. That's asinine. Crikes, I play games for fun, not as a second job. People are really out of line to expect that. And the developers are really out of line to create content that leads players to expect that. Maybe for 1 ultimate epeen fight or something, sure, require that, but for multiple events? It should be doable with reasonable to obtain gear and weapons.


I agree that current event requirements are a bit ... extreme. SE figured they could artificially extend content life by making it super hard, they listened to all those asshats on the OF who complained about wanting "more challenging content" or "for skill to mean something". Well SE, being who they are, did exactly that. The results were the EXACT same people complaining about "its to easy" choosing to use the least difficult / easiest method possibly (method with highest chance of success). You can't please those people, they will always ***** about stuff being "too easy" while simultaneously searching for the easiest method to beat it.

Anyhow content should be designed around the 80~95% of the games players, not the 1~5%. That will ensure maximum enjoyment is obtained by the most people and thus generate the highest subscriptions.
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#242 Dec 01 2012 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Best DD job to have in your party?

Bard

Because having someone that boosts your entire party's attack speed by 25%, as well as can cast haste on you from his subjob is going to make your output 40% better than before. Or can give you 250+ attack on a whim. It can make even a mediocre DD party good, and a superb DD party unbeatable.

Instead of putting all your time into super-mega relic #3, invest your time in recruiting and upgrading a bard friend. Ofcourse that would go against the whole principle of e-peen slinging since it would no longer be your performance, but a team effort.
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#243 Dec 01 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure is circa 2008 bard love in here now!
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#244 Dec 01 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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#245 Dec 01 2012 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure is circa 2008 bard love in here now!


IDK about you but I absolutely love my back line support crew. The most powerful DD in the game, absolute best gear, perfectly made spellcast XML, perfectly played, becomes a weenie without a good support crew behind them. A crappy AH DD can be made passable with a godly support crew. If my support guys are awesome I make sure to compliment them, too little credit goes to those guys in this game.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#246 Dec 20 2012 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
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Kinematics wrote:
AlexFitz wrote:
Vlorsutes said..
Quote:
Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).


So are you trying to tell me in terms of DD endgame.. my MNK is a bit lower on the tottom pole..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/gl0Bn.gif[/img] And if so , by how many damage points in terms of maybe over a course of 10 min.. ?

| WAR, DRK, SAM
|
| DRG
|
| <--- MONK ..? [img]http://i.imgur.com/caN1c.gif[/img]
|
| Some other job


Mnk and 1-hander jobs cap Ratio at 2.0, whereas 2-handers cap at 2.25. This starts having a serious impact once you're fighting high-level mobs. A level 120 mob has 1.05 level correction, so the absolute max cRatio you can reach on mnk/1-hander is 0.95, while 2-handers cap at 1.20. That means 2-handed jobs have a 26% higher damage potential, based -solely- on their max cRatio.

The other issue is accuracy. Aside from the weaker dex:acc conversion, 2-hander jobs with 99 relics get 40 accuracy from the weapon, whereas 1-handers and H2H get 40 attack. That 40 attack is definitely nice, but is likely to leave you at maybe a 75% hit rate, even when using pizza, against the highest level targets. Madrigal is needed to reach cap.

As best I can figure, max potential for mnk is about on par with max potential for drg (drg is maybe 5% ahead, actually, unless the mnk is also getting Haste Samba), though it takes more outside buffs to reach that max for mnk. Meanwhile, max potential drk is about 25% ahead of max potential drg.

Other 1-handed jobs aren't exactly a 'bad' choice compared to mnk; for example, nin's max is only about 5% behind mnk's. [Edit: Actually, that's with Kikoku; with Kannagi, nin is tied to slightly ahead] Aside from the top 3 jobs (drk, war, sam), most other jobs actually tend to have fairly similar max potentials, and could probably be considered roughly equally desirable. Drg stands out as needing fewer outside buffs (particularly accuracy) when approaching its max, plus Angon utility, making it more desirable than mnk in the general sense.

The real issue, however, is the rather substantial gap between the top three jobs and everyone else, which means nobody gives any real thought towards any of the other options.


Edited, Nov 30th 2012 12:45pm by Kinematics


Few Questions

1 - You said " A level 120 mob has 1.05 level correction, so the absolute max cRatio you can reach on mnk/1-hander is 0.95, while 2-handers cap at 1.20 " , Do you mean per hit? If per hit, wouldn't a monk crit more then a 2 handed Dark knight because of how slow a DRK hits, and how fast+Amount of times a monk will hit by the time drk hits once? Even with those ratios?

2 - Accuracy, shouldn't be a problem for Monks because of their Focus Dodge ability, right?

3 - Im also wondering this if you can answer it, which will do more damage in most situations endgame, MNK or PUP?

Thanks in advance
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#247 Dec 20 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Excellent
AlexFitz wrote:
Kinematics wrote:
AlexFitz wrote:
Vlorsutes said..
Quote:
Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).


So are you trying to tell me in terms of DD endgame.. my MNK is a bit lower on the tottom pole..? User Image And if so , by how many damage points in terms of maybe over a course of 10 min.. ?

| WAR, DRK, SAM
|
| DRG
|
| <--- MONK ..? User Image
|
| Some other job


Mnk and 1-hander jobs cap Ratio at 2.0, whereas 2-handers cap at 2.25. This starts having a serious impact once you're fighting high-level mobs. A level 120 mob has 1.05 level correction, so the absolute max cRatio you can reach on mnk/1-hander is 0.95, while 2-handers cap at 1.20. That means 2-handed jobs have a 26% higher damage potential, based -solely- on their max cRatio.

The other issue is accuracy. Aside from the weaker dex:acc conversion, 2-hander jobs with 99 relics get 40 accuracy from the weapon, whereas 1-handers and H2H get 40 attack. That 40 attack is definitely nice, but is likely to leave you at maybe a 75% hit rate, even when using pizza, against the highest level targets. Madrigal is needed to reach cap.

As best I can figure, max potential for mnk is about on par with max potential for drg (drg is maybe 5% ahead, actually, unless the mnk is also getting Haste Samba), though it takes more outside buffs to reach that max for mnk. Meanwhile, max potential drk is about 25% ahead of max potential drg.

Other 1-handed jobs aren't exactly a 'bad' choice compared to mnk; for example, nin's max is only about 5% behind mnk's. [Edit: Actually, that's with Kikoku; with Kannagi, nin is tied to slightly ahead] Aside from the top 3 jobs (drk, war, sam), most other jobs actually tend to have fairly similar max potentials, and could probably be considered roughly equally desirable. Drg stands out as needing fewer outside buffs (particularly accuracy) when approaching its max, plus Angon utility, making it more desirable than mnk in the general sense.

The real issue, however, is the rather substantial gap between the top three jobs and everyone else, which means nobody gives any real thought towards any of the other options.


Edited, Nov 30th 2012 12:45pm by Kinematics


Few Questions

1 - You said " A level 120 mob has 1.05 level correction, so the absolute max cRatio you can reach on mnk/1-hander is 0.95, while 2-handers cap at 1.20 " , Do you mean per hit? If per hit, wouldn't a monk crit more then a 2 handed Dark knight because of how slow a DRK hits, and how fast+Amount of times a monk will hit by the time drk hits once? Even with those ratios?

2 - Accuracy, shouldn't be a problem for Monks because of their Focus Dodge ability, right?

3 - Im also wondering this if you can answer it, which will do more damage in most situations endgame, MNK or PUP?

Thanks in advance


1) cRatio is a term used to mean "corrected level ratio", not critical hit ratio. It's calculated by taking the monster's level against yours and then factoring in what kind of weapon used. Given the significant difference in cRatio for a h2h and a two-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon is going to have a higher damage potential. Then take into account that the Dark Knight will likely have Last Resort + Haste + Marches and capped haste gear, and the attack speed for the Dark Knight is going to be considerable, closing the gap on the Monk's attack speed.

2) No, even with Focus, Accuracy is going to be a big issue. In areas like Legion, two-handed weapon jobs, for the aforementioned reasons (the cRatio for higher level content) , are going to be the primary jobs brought as far as meleeing, and even they have to gear more for accuracy, despite having significant accuracy boosts in one form or another (Accuracy traits, Aggressor, Diabolic Eye, Acc from relic weapons, etc). Monk, having far less accuracy to work with, would be far behind accuracy wise.

3) That's tough to say. It's going to depend on weapons, buffs, how well the automaton stays alive, etc.
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