Best DD Job now?Follow

I know a job that can do every last one of those things simultaneously without even skipping a beat and has used that fact to solo nearly everything in the game before SE made content either not soloable or not worth soloing. The community has laughed at that potential since 2004.

Not disagreeing with you, just saying being "versatile" is highly underrated in FFXI. It's always been about the absolute best-est best best at whatever content is currently "the thing to do". This is why you have a constant cycle of FoTM jobs.

Hmm I think he was attempting to argue the "dead DD's deal no damage" line. A DD should never be using defender ... ever .... not even when their "tanking" .. in fact just forget the JA even exists. Survivability is an issue though, so possible lower damage when you macro in your "ohh ****" gear?

You've not posted any numbers at all, either, not even spitballs. I cba to throw numbers into a debate that hasn't used them yet, especially when they aren't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I agree 100% that pup is not, has not been, and probably will never be, the job with the highest damage potential. What I was saying was that you can't @#%^ing argue "Yea but the puppet dies so it doesn't matter" when discussing "pure damage output" unless you also account for the pup not pulling hate constantly and the survivability of the other DDs you're comparing it with, as well as their relative changes in damage output when they take hate, which is the most common and aggravating flaw people use when trying to argue that pup sucks, and you yourself did it.



I wasn't trying to argue the self SC bit at all. It's a handy toy but not something a good pup will rely heavily on. Also, I never tried to suggest pup can do all that sh*t at once, since it obviously can't. Self SC and dropping a 5k nuke, yea, but even that takes a sh*tton of practice, or sheer dumb luck, to get the timing right (Easiest way would involve having pre-stored TP on your puppet, then Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Vsmite -> Deploy -> Tactical Switch -> Vsmite->Thunder V, but I may have my order off, here, and I'm not really a fan of Vsmite for pup anyway, since Stringing Pummel is just as strong and easier to get because I'm an old@#%^ who completed nyzul before WotG came out). Pup's not a tank and never will be, we're just really good at not getting hit. What I was saying is that pup is able to swap between different roles quickly, to accommodate for sh*t that comes up, without needing to leave to change jobs. I personally take consideration of how quickly a pup can swap puppets into account when I judge how good a pup they are. I can do it in about a minute if I'm in on adrenaline rush and can stop moving without dying



You made wide, blatantly incorrect generalizations, and I was correcting them, because the spreading of blatantly false information is the number one reason why there are so many @#%^ing idiots who have no idea how to play their jobs. The puppet's AI has absolutely nothing to do with anything now, because it's almost entirely fixed, and the only things left are minor issues that bug us because they're inconveniences, but are left in because BALANCE. I'm not going to argue that pup could ever out heal a whm, because you know full well that the only thing that can out heal a whm is a better whm, but aside from that, sh*t is @#%^ing situational, and you know it. You're the one blatantly assuming only one single situation is at all relevant and absolutely no other situation could hold weight in the matter. Situationally, pups CAN out nuke blms. Situationally, pups CAN out pace rngs and other dds.



The problem is you're exaggerating excessively, and still don't seem to understand how the AI works at all. No one's trying to say every situation, I'm saying that the one single @#%^ing instance that you are demanding be the only relevant issue is the one that doesn't favor pup and no one's trying to argue that pup would win in that situation. Pup is not a @#%^ing zerg job and never will be. THERE'S A LOT MORE TO THE @#%^ING GAME THAN SUPERBUFFED ZERGS. Yes, right now, VW is the only real endgame, because legion and neonyzul are still fresh and haven't had their strategies figured out, which means that right now, the only endgame is a zerg heavy event. One, single event. The issue isn't that you're saying "Pup sucks because it's not a good DD" and we're saying "Pups not good in endgame events, that doesn't mean it's a bad job", The issue is that you're saying, "Pup's not good in Voidwatch" which we all @#%^ing agree with, but you're assuming that Voidwatch means "All endgame" because it's the only @#%^ing thing to do right now. Pup is not good in voidwatch, and it never will be. Pup was not good in Einherjar at 75, either. That didn't stop it from being a power house in other events that emphasized its strengths. One event =/= Endgame. One Event = One Event.


Ok, totally my bad there, I completely forgot about stun/dreadspikes/drain/II, for some reason. I blame brainfarts.


The main issue I have with what you're saying is that you're making blanket assumptions and silly arguments that about the one situation where pup doesn't shine and assuming that it applies across the board, which is @#%^ing beneath you. You're smarter than that, which is why it bothers me.

tl;dr,
What you're saying, "Pup's not good in one single event that caters to pure DDs and doesn't help the DDs that don't purely focus on damage, and because of that, it sucks."
What you seem to think we're saying, "No, pups good if you give it a bias, and weak the performance of other jobs!"
What we're actually saying, "We agree that pup's not good in that particular event, because that particular event has a heavy bias towards the pure DD jobs, which pup is not. If you reverse the situation, though, the opposite becomes true."

No one's trying to argue that pup doesn't suck compared to war/mnk/drg/sam/drk in VW. We're saying that there's more to being a DD than @#%^ing VW.


Rdm doesn't even come close to the same potential for all three that pup and blue have, and it absolutely never has. It can be a decent nuker now that it has T4s, and it can be a decent healer again now with the healing update, and it was the top healer for a long time, but it's melee damage has always been complete garbage relative to any job that actually melees regularly; though still a step above melee smn. I don't disagree that versatility is highly underrated, but don't try to compare rdm melee to pup or blu melee, because it just doesn't make the cut. It's versatile, yes, but it's more meh~decent melee, meh~decent nuker, meh~decent healer. Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get **** for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 7:09pm by Jinte

... In pure melee damage, on fodder mobs.

Dude if you and your puppet were on my server, I'd totally offer to go head to head with you on my WAR. I'm not even an Empy WAR, just a Vermeil Bhuj one that rides the JA timers like I'm on RDM and has little regard for my own personal safety.

I say this with the utmost respect to the full metal PUPs I've known over the years. In fact, I was looking through old Dynamis parses last night, trying to find someone I knew was on PUP who was in the top 3, just to help you out and give you your damn numbers, but now I don't want to bother.

PUP is a hybrid job. Hybrid jobs will rarely be the top damage dealers in all situations. That's not the point of the job.

Just stop will ya zelduh?

You are just a caricature at this point and you are doing no one a service. Not the ppl that like playing PUP or the ppl who think that PUP is garbage. You are just playing the role of the second-rate troll who is stirring up mess for the sheer joy of it.

As i've been told by the admins, trolling ain't against the rules per se. So aside from trying like mad to rate you to hell, i'd like to say this you ya - and its from the heart

STFU Zelduh!!!!

I wish I could rate you up more than once.

This. Also yes to loldrunkbard

And just because it's you Shade, here's one where Comedie kicks ***. Dec 14th, 2010, Dynamis Windurst. Shadechaos + Comedie total 8.75%, come in second, only behind Keio the calling BLM. (Catwho does not appear on the parse because Catwho was a pulling bard and all we do is sleep and die. Hehe.) Clemmy, Sociologist, Jainus, and Razorx on BST mean that teasing out the comparable damage from the other pets is hard (29.34% between all four BST and the pets, for an average of 7.335.) Firewing added a small bit to Laverda on DRG as well. Catacomb is on MNK. Seichi is on DRK.

What you see in these numbers is some of the very best DDs of their classes, in a situation where it's still "kill them all before they kill you" and there's no waiting around to proc stuff.

And RaiseIII, probably the best damn PUP on Bismarck, still can't beat out the suicidal BLM Keio.

QED: PUP can be a good DD. PUP is not the best DD in all situations.

Spoiler

Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
Catacomb                119551     7.89 %       81991           0         275       34982           0       2303 
Clemmy                    9949     0.66 %        8415           0           0        1451           0         83 
Darkseeker                  21     0.00 %           0           0           0           0          21          0 
Diagaro                  17029     1.12 %        7739           0           0        9290           0          0 
Gaspee                   57316     3.78 %           0           0           0           0       57316          0 
Gez                      41955     2.77 %       27767           0           0       14188           0          0 
Greatbob                 23234     1.53 %       17173         855           0        5206           0          0 
Jainus                   50167     3.31 %       20961           0          24       26453        2335        394 
Keio                    156061    10.30 %         125           0           0           0      155838         98 
Kitkit                   79477     5.25 %       63690           0         290       15380           0        117 
Lahurah                     29     0.00 %           0           0           0           0          29          0 
Laverda                  95841     6.33 %       52143           0         317       28318         192      14871 
Majordragonbaby          33943     2.24 %        9742           0        5607       18594           0          0 
Mingtae                   4872     0.32 %           0        4296           0         530           0         46 
Onatowa                  14540     0.96 %           0           0           0           0       14540          0 
Psychofetrus             47845     3.16 %           0           0           0           0       47845          0 
Razorx                   69374     4.58 %       42698           0           0       26676           0          0 
Rizil                    83222     5.49 %           0           0           0           0       83222          0 
Seichi                  103929     6.86 %       48632           0          48       48290        3512       3447 
Shadechaos               73514     4.85 %       49760           0           0       23681           0         73 
Sirflaw                     25     0.00 %           0           0          25           0           0          0 
Sociologist              11164     0.74 %        8676           0           0        2442           0         46 
Yamisam                  27539     1.82 %       26944           0           0         595           0          0 
Comedie                  59145     3.90 %        9663       25089           0       20306        4087          0 
Diabolos                  1025     0.07 %          77           0         948           0           0          0 
Firewing                  4701     0.31 %        2855           0        1846           0           0          0 
Garuda                   10707     0.71 %         683           0       10024           0           0          0 
Leviathan                 3474     0.23 %         699           0        2775           0           0          0 
NurseryNazuna            59739     3.94 %       52903           0        6795           0           0         41 
Shiva                     7755     0.51 %         741           0        7014           0           0          0 
SwiftSieghard           243985    16.11 %      221569           0       22372           0           0         44 
Titan                     1079     0.07 %        1079           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Compression            341     0.02 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Detonation             711     0.05 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Fragmentation          382     0.03 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Impaction              319     0.02 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Reverberation          803     0.05 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
Total                  1514763   100.00 %      756725       30240       58360      276382      368937      21563

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 4:28pm by catwho

Make entirely factual and relevant observation pertaining to the job I'm vastly intimate with and get ratebombed.

I like where this is going guys. Red Arrows are the secret to DD PUP taking over.

That'd be strike 2. You may as well just not heal anybody and have the PUP solo everything, then it'll be top DD for sure!

I was incredulous towards their build, TP:WS split, and effort, but remember what I said earlier about how most 'meh' DRKs forget they have two stuns and the best defensive spell in the game to go with two Drains and two Aspirs? Smells like that too, particularly in double-dark weather Dynamis.

Now I can even point out the missing Endark damage from roughly 150-200 melee swings. 3k spell damage is probably both Drains once each and maybe a Dread Spikes or a single application of Endark tops.

To say "some of the very best DDs of their classes" of this DRK is bordering on an insult at this point. It's not that they're missing Apoc or Liberator or even a lolEmpy (I'd expect this out of an 80-85 Redemption owner actually), but that they're blowing the very basics of the job in an event that should be a happy hunting ground for them.

Post the Melee portion of the Offense summary please? That could answer many questions.

Edited, Apr 21st 2012 9:02am by Raelix

Sorry, I guess my sarcasm glands have atrophied a bit due to recent lack of use, I was being excessively false for the sake of the lolddrdm meme. Thought I came through clear



She.



lolkarma.

Now, because I'm bored and have nothing better to do on a saturday evening, I'm going to go crunch some numbers and then prove both my points; 1: zelduh's being stupid, and 2: pup not being a zerg job does not automatically mean it sucks as a dd. Be back in a few hours with some generalized spitball numbers to account for a number of different scenarios to prove my points.

Changed my mind. There's way to much to account for in this math such that it satisfies everyone, and I really don't even give half a ****. I give about a ************* which is enough to chatter about it, but not enough to motivate me to keep fiddling with these numbers when I could be doing something more entertaining.

Edited, Apr 21st 2012 9:09pm by Jinte