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Best DD Job now?Follow

#77 Apr 18 2012 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#78 Apr 19 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. @#%^, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game


I know a job that can do every last one of those things simultaneously without even skipping a beat and has used that fact to solo nearly everything in the game before SE made content either not soloable or not worth soloing. The community has laughed at that potential since 2004.

Not disagreeing with you, just saying being "versatile" is highly underrated in FFXI. It's always been about the absolute best-est best best at whatever content is currently "the thing to do". This is why you have a constant cycle of FoTM jobs.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#79 Apr 19 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.


Why would I use Defender? So I can have 94 defense instead of 70? And Counterstance lowers our DPS? Defender yeah. Counterstance no.
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#80 Apr 19 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.


Why would I use Defender? So I can have 94 defense instead of 70? And Counterstance lowers our DPS? Defender yeah. Counterstance no.


Hmm I think he was attempting to argue the "dead DD's deal no damage" line. A DD should never be using defender ... ever .... not even when their "tanking" .. in fact just forget the JA even exists. Survivability is an issue though, so possible lower damage when you macro in your "ohh ****" gear?
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#81 Apr 19 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I love a good Jinte post, and yes I had the attention span for the whole thing, but this still irks me:
Lady Jinte wrote:
numbers debate

Okay, so where are the numbers? I lost my PUP vs. Zilart VW and many other parses when my RAID0 died.

Yes, I know PUP has mechanics to produce pretty numbers, be it with nukes or skillchains, but just like a Rhongomiant DRG can drop a 3k Jump when their Empy+2 and ODD procs at the same time it doesn't really matter because you've usually gimped your total output (I just showed on BG that Rhon's AM1 ODD doesn't outweigh using Camlann's to proc it without at least two magical haste sources) to reach such e-peen.

If PUP could self-SC, drop 4k+ nukes, and tank mobs with impunity all at once we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it doesn't do all these things at the same time. I know enough about PUP that when someone tries to tell me it's competitive with Post-Abyssea DD I can call bullsh*t unless they start putting numbers, parses, and facts up, just like any other job.

So while I made wide generalizations about PUP vs BLM, PUP vs RNG, PUP vs WHM, PUP vs DD, I thank you for taking the time to precisely affirm exactly what the **** I said beyond the specifics of the puppet having stronger single nukes but still losing overall. I'm being trite and objective because such things are as I know them to be, and still nobody as done anything but chide me while making no stipulations that what I stated was necessarily wrong.

This excuse of "X situation is bad for PUP" doesn't fly either, because it's turning into practically every situation at this rate, exactly as I stipulated earlier: Indeed PUP is competitive when other DDs are granted no buffs or brains at all!

Abyssea :"Bad for PUP!" Well yeah, it's bad for a lot of jobs and skews a lot of things. VoidWatch: "Zerg fights! Bad for PUP!" Not seeing how this makes PUP relevant to damage dealing since VW and other zerg fights are one of the core places where damage output actually matters.

So what then? Watch the puppet take 15 seconds to decide to cast a Tier 3 nuke to kill a mob that dies to any other DD in two melee rounds? Even in non-zerg situations (Solo, Original Nyzul, other assaults, ToAU missions, Add-on battles, pre- and post-rework Dynamis) I've seen nothing but PUP's lack of being able to focus their potential.

Other contention: You listed DRK amongst jobs that have almost no survivability, which is a major hangup of mine because that's more relative to how stupid most DRKs are that they can forget they have two stuns and the most powerful defensive spell in the game. We are kindred spirits that our favored job is bastardized by most of the people playing it. That's for another day though.

But what do I know? I've only been hanging around a shell full of these unique snowflake types the whole of my time on Diabolos and Siren, and though you do know me to be a person of high caliber analysis and tracking, I must just be pulling all of this out of my *** huh?

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 10:05am by Raelix
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#82 Apr 19 2012 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
I love a good Jinte post, and yes I had the attention span for the whole thing, but this still irks me:
Lady Jinte wrote:
numbers debate

Okay, so where are the numbers? I lost my PUP vs. Zilart VW and many other parses when my RAID0 died.

You've not posted any numbers at all, either, not even spitballs. I cba to throw numbers into a debate that hasn't used them yet, especially when they aren't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I agree 100% that pup is not, has not been, and probably will never be, the job with the highest damage potential. What I was saying was that you can't @#%^ing argue "Yea but the puppet dies so it doesn't matter" when discussing "pure damage output" unless you also account for the pup not pulling hate constantly and the survivability of the other DDs you're comparing it with, as well as their relative changes in damage output when they take hate, which is the most common and aggravating flaw people use when trying to argue that pup sucks, and you yourself did it.

Raelix wrote:
Yes, I know PUP has mechanics to produce pretty numbers, be it with nukes or skillchains, but just like a Rhongomiant DRG can drop a 3k Jump when their Empy+2 and ODD procs at the same time it doesn't really matter because you've usually gimped your total output (I just showed on BG that Rhon's AM1 ODD doesn't outweigh using Camlann's to proc it without at least two magical haste sources) to reach such e-peen.

If PUP could self-SC, drop 4k+ nukes, and tank mobs with impunity all at once we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it doesn't do all these things at the same time. I know enough about PUP that when someone tries to tell me it's competitive with Post-Abyssea DD I can call bullsh*t unless they start putting numbers, parses, and facts up, just like any other job.


I wasn't trying to argue the self SC bit at all. It's a handy toy but not something a good pup will rely heavily on. Also, I never tried to suggest pup can do all that sh*t at once, since it obviously can't. Self SC and dropping a 5k nuke, yea, but even that takes a sh*tton of practice, or sheer dumb luck, to get the timing right (Easiest way would involve having pre-stored TP on your puppet, then Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Vsmite -> Deploy -> Tactical Switch -> Vsmite->Thunder V, but I may have my order off, here, and I'm not really a fan of Vsmite for pup anyway, since Stringing Pummel is just as strong and easier to get because I'm an old@#%^ who completed nyzul before WotG came out). Pup's not a tank and never will be, we're just really good at not getting hit. What I was saying is that pup is able to swap between different roles quickly, to accommodate for sh*t that comes up, without needing to leave to change jobs. I personally take consideration of how quickly a pup can swap puppets into account when I judge how good a pup they are. I can do it in about a minute if I'm in on adrenaline rush and can stop moving without dying Smiley: laugh

Raelix wrote:
So while I made wide generalizations about PUP vs BLM, PUP vs RNG, PUP vs WHM, PUP vs DD, I thank you for taking the time to precisely affirm exactly what the **** I said beyond the specifics of the puppet having stronger single nukes but still losing overall. I'm being trite and objective because such things are as I know them to be, and still nobody as done anything but chide me while making no stipulations that what I stated was necessarily wrong.


You made wide, blatantly incorrect generalizations, and I was correcting them, because the spreading of blatantly false information is the number one reason why there are so many @#%^ing idiots who have no idea how to play their jobs. The puppet's AI has absolutely nothing to do with anything now, because it's almost entirely fixed, and the only things left are minor issues that bug us because they're inconveniences, but are left in because BALANCE. I'm not going to argue that pup could ever out heal a whm, because you know full well that the only thing that can out heal a whm is a better whm, but aside from that, sh*t is @#%^ing situational, and you know it. You're the one blatantly assuming only one single situation is at all relevant and absolutely no other situation could hold weight in the matter. Situationally, pups CAN out nuke blms. Situationally, pups CAN out pace rngs and other dds.

Raelix wrote:
This excuse of "X situation is bad for PUP" doesn't fly either, because it's turning into practically every situation at this rate, exactly as I stipulated earlier: Indeed PUP is competitive when other DDs are granted no buffs or brains at all!

Abyssea :"Bad for PUP!" Well yeah, it's bad for a lot of jobs and skews a lot of things. VoidWatch: "Zerg fights! Bad for PUP!" Not seeing how this makes PUP relevant to damage dealing since VW and other zerg fights are one of the core places where damage output actually matters.

So what then? Watch the puppet take 15 seconds to decide to cast a Tier 3 nuke to kill a mob that dies to any other DD in two melee rounds? Even in non-zerg situations (Solo, Original Nyzul, other assaults, ToAU missions, Add-on battles, pre- and post-rework Dynamis) I've seen nothing but PUP's lack of being able to focus their potential.


The problem is you're exaggerating excessively, and still don't seem to understand how the AI works at all. No one's trying to say every situation, I'm saying that the one single @#%^ing instance that you are demanding be the only relevant issue is the one that doesn't favor pup and no one's trying to argue that pup would win in that situation. Pup is not a @#%^ing zerg job and never will be. THERE'S A LOT MORE TO THE @#%^ING GAME THAN SUPERBUFFED ZERGS. Yes, right now, VW is the only real endgame, because legion and neonyzul are still fresh and haven't had their strategies figured out, which means that right now, the only endgame is a zerg heavy event. One, single event. The issue isn't that you're saying "Pup sucks because it's not a good DD" and we're saying "Pups not good in endgame events, that doesn't mean it's a bad job", The issue is that you're saying, "Pup's not good in Voidwatch" which we all @#%^ing agree with, but you're assuming that Voidwatch means "All endgame" because it's the only @#%^ing thing to do right now. Pup is not good in voidwatch, and it never will be. Pup was not good in Einherjar at 75, either. That didn't stop it from being a power house in other events that emphasized its strengths. One event =/= Endgame. One Event = One Event.

Raelix wrote:
Other contention: You listed DRK amongst jobs that have almost no survivability, which is a major hangup of mine because that's more relative to how stupid most DRKs are that they can forget they have two stuns and the most powerful defensive spell in the game. We are kindred spirits that our favored job is bastardized by most of the people playing it. That's for another day though.

Ok, totally my bad there, I completely forgot about stun/dreadspikes/drain/II, for some reason. I blame brainfarts.

Raelix wrote:
But what do I know? I've only been hanging around a shell full of these unique snowflake types the whole of my time on Diabolos and Siren, and though you do know me to be a person of high caliber analysis and tracking, I must just be pulling all of this out of my *** huh?

The main issue I have with what you're saying is that you're making blanket assumptions and silly arguments that about the one situation where pup doesn't shine and assuming that it applies across the board, which is @#%^ing beneath you. You're smarter than that, which is why it bothers me.

tl;dr,
What you're saying, "Pup's not good in one single event that caters to pure DDs and doesn't help the DDs that don't purely focus on damage, and because of that, it sucks."
What you seem to think we're saying, "No, pups good if you give it a bias, and weak the performance of other jobs!"
What we're actually saying, "We agree that pup's not good in that particular event, because that particular event has a heavy bias towards the pure DD jobs, which pup is not. If you reverse the situation, though, the opposite becomes true."

No one's trying to argue that pup doesn't suck compared to war/mnk/drg/sam/drk in VW. We're saying that there's more to being a DD than @#%^ing VW.

saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. @#%^, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game


I know a job that can do every last one of those things simultaneously without even skipping a beat and has used that fact to solo nearly everything in the game before SE made content either not soloable or not worth soloing. The community has laughed at that potential since 2004.

Not disagreeing with you, just saying being "versatile" is highly underrated in FFXI. It's always been about the absolute best-est best best at whatever content is currently "the thing to do". This is why you have a constant cycle of FoTM jobs.

Rdm doesn't even come close to the same potential for all three that pup and blue have, and it absolutely never has. It can be a decent nuker now that it has T4s, and it can be a decent healer again now with the healing update, and it was the top healer for a long time, but it's melee damage has always been complete garbage relative to any job that actually melees regularly; though still a step above melee smn. I don't disagree that versatility is highly underrated, but don't try to compare rdm melee to pup or blu melee, because it just doesn't make the cut. It's versatile, yes, but it's more meh~decent melee, meh~decent nuker, meh~decent healer. Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get **** for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 7:09pm by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#83 Apr 20 2012 at 2:27 AM Rating: Good
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Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get sh*t for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.


You just gave a rather large post berating Raelix about posting false info, then yourself post blatantly false info.

Did a bunch of number crunching between BLU vs RDM awhile back, and guess what ... BLU ended up 3~10% ahead depending on what your doing, basically did the BLU have a mule casting Dia II onto the target. Don't compare a 2005 RDM vs 2012 RDM, there has been a large increase in it's capability since then, mostly in the form of better gear and better self buffs.

RDM does get a nice sword WS, Requiscat tends to be viewed as crappy until you realize that it copies fTP and RDM has a metric crap ton of MND gear laying around. So much that it's better then CDC on everything except IT monsters / Abyssea. It was moten who pointed that out btw. Req easily beats out Vorpal in every situation outside of Abyssea. The fact that you even mention daggers at all proves that you've no idea what a proper melee build looks like, daggers currently have no place in it, not even with Exten. Req is 5 hits 1.2 fTP (with belt / gorget) 100% MND, with /NIN your talking 6 hits * 1.2 or 7.2 fTP worth of ~60~71 base DMG (Almace or fully upgrades Xcal) with 170 MND (no buffs), and that's without counting for DA's happening. Where Req get's crapped on is higher level targets with 600+ defense, then the attack penalty is so severe that you can't overcome it without outside buffs, and no body is going to have a RDM being buffed by a BRD or COR. Also while people may laugh at enspell's ~30 damage, it ends up adding about 12~15% to your damage which is a pretty big percentage for such a small self buffs.

Temper was a straight 20% DA, that is what's largely responsible for closing the gap between RDM and BLU in melee damage. BLU is still slightly ahead but RDM remains more versatile as their not limited by set points. Where RDM loses the most is in big zerg fights, the exact same place the other hybrid jobs lose for the exact same reasons, you have more then enough specialization present that you don't need versatility. And RDM now crush's WHM completely, you still thinking 2005 Blessed +1 WHM vs SH BD RDM. RDM has better gear, better weapons, and better self buffs.

The whole point of my post was to mention that everything you listed RDM has been able to do since 2004/2005, and the community ignored it just like their ignoring PUP / BLU / DNC's versatility now. And while you fought for PUP you demonstrated that your just as much of the problem as your spreading the same ignorance about RDM that others have spread about PUP.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 8:56am by saevellakshmi
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#84 Apr 20 2012 at 6:01 AM Rating: Default
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... In pure melee damage, on fodder mobs.
#86 Apr 20 2012 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
The best damage dealer in any and all situations is PUP, I don't care what anyone says.


That's really not helping matters...

I'd love it as much as anyone else who plays PUP if this was true, but it's not. It's not true for any job. (I'm ignoring the fact you said this just to get a reaction from the others here)

Zelduh wrote:
Show me proof that your bandwagons jobs will beat an equally geared/skilled/buffed PUP. I want to see numbers. Don't have any? Yeah, that's why they're meaningless. No one ever actually produces them, just anecdotal evidence of "lol guise, this one pup in my party did like, 50 damage, and kept missing, and he was half naked lolol! pup suuuucks! omg look at my damage *stroke stroke* I'm so hardcore compared to pup"


The same could be said about any job...

I play PUP because I enjoy playing it. Simple as that.
I also enjoy playing BLU and SCH, and along with PUP these 3 have been my favourite jobs to play for years now, simply because they keep me engaged and interested with more than just auto-attacking, pushing a few JA's when the timers are up, and WS'ing when I have TP

I even prefer playing SCH over WHM or any of the other mage classes.

And given all that bias I know none of those jobs are ever the best at everything.

Edit: when, not with

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 8:34am by Xakz
#87 Apr 20 2012 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
The best damage dealer in any and all situations is PUP, I don't care what anyone says. Show me proof that your bandwagons jobs will beat an equally geared/skilled/buffed PUP. I want to see numbers. Don't have any? Yeah, that's why they're meaningless. No one ever actually produces them, just anecdotal evidence of "lol guise, this one pup in my party did like, 50 damage, and kept missing, and he was half naked lolol! pup suuuucks! omg look at my damage *stroke stroke* I'm so hardcore compared to pup"


Dude if you and your puppet were on my server, I'd totally offer to go head to head with you on my WAR. I'm not even an Empy WAR, just a Vermeil Bhuj one that rides the JA timers like I'm on RDM and has little regard for my own personal safety.

I say this with the utmost respect to the full metal PUPs I've known over the years. In fact, I was looking through old Dynamis parses last night, trying to find someone I knew was on PUP who was in the top 3, just to help you out and give you your **** numbers, but now I don't want to bother. Smiley: oyvey

PUP is a hybrid job. Hybrid jobs will rarely be the top damage dealers in all situations. That's not the point of the job.
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#88 Apr 20 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
The best damage dealer in any and all situations is PUP, I don't care what anyone says.


This is FFXI and PUP is a pet job. The day PUP comes anywhere close to being top DD is the day Tanaka nerfs PUP straight into the center of a black hole from which they will never escape.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 10:01am by Camiie

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 10:01am by Camiie
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#89 Apr 20 2012 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just stop will ya zelduh?

You are just a caricature at this point and you are doing no one a service. Not the ppl that like playing PUP or the ppl who think that PUP is garbage. You are just playing the role of the second-rate troll who is stirring up mess for the sheer joy of it.

As i've been told by the admins, trolling ain't against the rules per se. So aside from trying like mad to rate you to ****, i'd like to say this you ya - and its from the heart

STFU Zelduh!!!!



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#90 Apr 20 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:


Dude if you and your puppet were on my server, I'd totally offer to go head to head with you on my WAR. I'm not even an Empy WAR, just a Vermeil Bhuj one that rides the JA timers like I'm on RDM and has little regard for my own personal safety.

I say this with the utmost respect to the full metal PUPs I've known over the years. In fact, I was looking through old Dynamis parses last night, trying to find someone I knew was on PUP who was in the top 3, just to help you out and give you your **** numbers, but now I don't want to bother. Smiley: oyvey

PUP is a hybrid job. Hybrid jobs will rarely be the top damage dealers in all situations. That's not the point of the job.


Hey, I resemble that remark. Not only was I always in the top 3 on PUP, I even made it to the top slot on several trips, once versus an amano SAM.

Was it because PUP was top DD?

No, it wasn't.

It was because I worked my *** off paying attention to what was going on, had the right attachments for the job and the right maneuvers up when they needed to be. It was because I engaged the mob as fast as possible to get every hit in I could get in. In short, it was a hella lotta work. And THAT is what makes the top DD in this game. It's not about gear (well, in a smaller part it is)...it's mostly about the player behind the job that cares enough to play the job the way it plays best or at least **** close to it. The good(or any for that matter) player on the worst DD job in the field will always outperform the best geared player standing around in Port showing off their gear.

And what makes this happen? I mean, what contributing factor counted the most for the good results? My thoughts and I think Catwho will agree, is that we were mages first (specifically main healers and not curebots). We cut our teeth on paying attention and managing the job, working fast or sweeping up the pieces later. We research mobs in advance to know their weaknesses and strengths and we pay attention, even anticipate their actions as they happen and adjust on the fly. Our /ja and /ws go off just the second they become ready unless the mob is absorbing damage in which case we are the first ones with our backs to it. From us you never hear a "lol oops", you get a "GDI !" when we ***** up because we know better and it hurts when we phail (loldrunkbard excluded).

So to answer the OP's question, which is somewhere in this thread... the best DD job is the one you work at playing the best. After all, it's a game, have some fun.


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#91 Apr 20 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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#92 Apr 20 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Pup's biggest issue has been, and always will be, the combined effect of it drawing in the "I wanna be a unique snowflake!" players and the fact that the job requires a much higher level of dedication and practice to play well than said players are ever willing to put forth. There's no such thing as an average pup. 90% of them suck horribly. The other 10%, however, that actually know how to play the job, are some of the best players in the game, both when they're on pup, and when they're on other jobs, because the practice and dedication required to play pup well carries over to other jobs. "Pup sucks because the people who play it suck" is not a valid argument, and it's the only one you can really make in any situation that isn't high haste zerging, which will never be pup's forte, and any half-intelligent pup knows that.


That sums up PUP perfectly (RaiseIII's post is spot on as well). Don't hate the job, hate the player.

I know the considerable strengths of the job, and even I am wary to take the risk of inviting some random PUP to an event because there are so many of the "unique snowflakes" Jinte mentions. Odds are that same player is just as bad at MNK/SAM/DRK/WAR, but it's a lot easier to cover for lack of brains/skill in those jobs as long as you have adequate gear. So I don't begrudge people at all for being uncomfortable inviting a PUP since you might not know what you're going to get. Taking a MNK who turns out to be dumb is less of a liability than taking a PUP who turns out to be equally dumb. But if you do get a good PUP, they'll stomp the **** out of a lousy [pick other DD here].

Though in a way, that should also be a little frustrating for good players of those other jobs. You know it irks you a little bit when some moron without a clue gets an 85empy on a DD job you love and that becomes their ticket to invites. It's a little disappointing to me that the gap between my well played MNK and the average braindead player's MNK isn't larger. Or that my THF that makes the most of the job's DD potential is viewed as the same as the guy who just hits the mob for TH and does a fraction of my damage. There is something rewarding about knowing that on PUP, the gap between me and the average PUP is big enough to make people comment on a regular basis.

So all I will ask the non-PUPs out there is to try to understand that when played WELL, PUP can be a great DD for non-zerg fights right up there with the best of them. If you know someone who is a good player who wants to use PUP in a DD situation, give them a chance. And if you want to tell the random person who you can't vouch for to come WAR/SAM/MNK/DRK instead, I completely understand.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 2:12pm by Anza
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#93 Apr 20 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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This. Also yes to loldrunkbard
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#94 Apr 20 2012 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Okay guys, enough with the bashing back and forth.

Zelduh, you've been saying that other people don't supply the evidence to support that PUP is a less than stellar DD, but you've yet to supply any evidence yourself to show why you believe they are the best. If you want to try and convince people about your beliefs, you need to do it in a calm and rational manner, not just start berating them because your opinion differs from theirs. Even one of the best, well geared, most knowledgeable Puppetmasters I know of (Jinte) just pointed out that Puppetmaster falls short of the true DD, and she's one to not say that out of personal bias, but rather straightforward number crunching. Just because she didn't post said numbers doesn't mean that they don't exist. So I say this, if you want people to believe that they're as good as you say they are, then prove it with empirical data, not just spout out declarations without any way of proving it.

As for everyone else, do I even need to say it? Just don't start flaming or trolling one another.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2012 2:40pm by Vlorsutes
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#95 Apr 20 2012 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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RaiseIII wrote:
Hey, I resemble that remark. Not only was I always in the top 3 on PUP, I even made it to the top slot on several trips, once versus an amano SAM.

Was it because PUP was top DD?

No, it wasn't.

It was because I worked my *** off paying attention to what was going on, had the right attachments for the job and the right maneuvers up when they needed to be. It was because I engaged the mob as fast as possible to get every hit in I could get in. In short, it was a hella lotta work. And THAT is what makes the top DD in this game. It's not about gear (well, in a smaller part it is)...it's mostly about the player behind the job that cares enough to play the job the way it plays best or at least **** close to it. The good(or any for that matter) player on the worst DD job in the field will always outperform the best geared player standing around in Port showing off their gear


And just because it's you Shade, here's one where Comedie kicks ***. Dec 14th, 2010, Dynamis Windurst. Shadechaos + Comedie total 8.75%, come in second, only behind Keio the calling BLM. (Catwho does not appear on the parse because Catwho was a pulling bard and all we do is sleep and die. Hehe.) Clemmy, Sociologist, Jainus, and Razorx on BST mean that teasing out the comparable damage from the other pets is hard (29.34% between all four BST and the pets, for an average of 7.335.) Firewing added a small bit to Laverda on DRG as well. Catacomb is on MNK. Seichi is on DRK.

What you see in these numbers is some of the very best DDs of their classes, in a situation where it's still "kill them all before they kill you" and there's no waiting around to proc stuff.

And RaiseIII, probably the best **** PUP on Bismarck, still can't beat out the suicidal BLM Keio.

QED: PUP can be a good DD. PUP is not the best DD in all situations.



Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
Catacomb                119551     7.89 %       81991           0         275       34982           0       2303 
Clemmy                    9949     0.66 %        8415           0           0        1451           0         83 
Darkseeker                  21     0.00 %           0           0           0           0          21          0 
Diagaro                  17029     1.12 %        7739           0           0        9290           0          0 
Gaspee                   57316     3.78 %           0           0           0           0       57316          0 
Gez                      41955     2.77 %       27767           0           0       14188           0          0 
Greatbob                 23234     1.53 %       17173         855           0        5206           0          0 
Jainus                   50167     3.31 %       20961           0          24       26453        2335        394 
Keio                    156061    10.30 %         125           0           0           0      155838         98 
Kitkit                   79477     5.25 %       63690           0         290       15380           0        117 
Lahurah                     29     0.00 %           0           0           0           0          29          0 
Laverda                  95841     6.33 %       52143           0         317       28318         192      14871 
Majordragonbaby          33943     2.24 %        9742           0        5607       18594           0          0 
Mingtae                   4872     0.32 %           0        4296           0         530           0         46 
Onatowa                  14540     0.96 %           0           0           0           0       14540          0 
Psychofetrus             47845     3.16 %           0           0           0           0       47845          0 
Razorx                   69374     4.58 %       42698           0           0       26676           0          0 
Rizil                    83222     5.49 %           0           0           0           0       83222          0 
Seichi                  103929     6.86 %       48632           0          48       48290        3512       3447 
Shadechaos               73514     4.85 %       49760           0           0       23681           0         73 
Sirflaw                     25     0.00 %           0           0          25           0           0          0 
Sociologist              11164     0.74 %        8676           0           0        2442           0         46 
Yamisam                  27539     1.82 %       26944           0           0         595           0          0 
Comedie                  59145     3.90 %        9663       25089           0       20306        4087          0 
Diabolos                  1025     0.07 %          77           0         948           0           0          0 
Firewing                  4701     0.31 %        2855           0        1846           0           0          0 
Garuda                   10707     0.71 %         683           0       10024           0           0          0 
Leviathan                 3474     0.23 %         699           0        2775           0           0          0 
NurseryNazuna            59739     3.94 %       52903           0        6795           0           0         41 
Shiva                     7755     0.51 %         741           0        7014           0           0          0 
SwiftSieghard           243985    16.11 %      221569           0       22372           0           0         44 
Titan                     1079     0.07 %        1079           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Compression            341     0.02 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Detonation             711     0.05 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Fragmentation          382     0.03 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Impaction              319     0.02 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Reverberation          803     0.05 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
Total                  1514763   100.00 %      756725       30240       58360      276382      368937      21563


Edited, Apr 20th 2012 4:28pm by catwho
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#96 Apr 20 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
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50:50 DRK in 2010 in Dyna Windurst isn't convincing me. In fact it reeks of slack and 7-hit.
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Nilatai wrote:
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There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#97 Apr 21 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
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Make entirely factual and relevant observation pertaining to the job I'm vastly intimate with and get ratebombed.

I like where this is going guys. Red Arrows are the secret to DD PUP taking over.
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Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#98 Apr 21 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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That particular DRK is also a Tarutaru and spent a lot of each run dead.
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#99 Apr 21 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
That particular DRK is also a Tarutaru and spent a lot of each run dead.

That'd be strike 2. You may as well just not heal anybody and have the PUP solo everything, then it'll be top DD for sure!

I was incredulous towards their build, TP:WS split, and effort, but remember what I said earlier about how most 'meh' DRKs forget they have two stuns and the best defensive spell in the game to go with two Drains and two Aspirs? Smells like that too, particularly in double-dark weather Dynamis.

Now I can even point out the missing Endark damage from roughly 150-200 melee swings. 3k spell damage is probably both Drains once each and maybe a Dread Spikes or a single application of Endark tops.

To say "some of the very best DDs of their classes" of this DRK is bordering on an insult at this point. It's not that they're missing Apoc or Liberator or even a lolEmpy (I'd expect this out of an 80-85 Redemption owner actually), but that they're blowing the very basics of the job in an event that should be a happy hunting ground for them.

Post the Melee portion of the Offense summary please? That could answer many questions.

Edited, Apr 21st 2012 9:02am by Raelix
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Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#100 Apr 21 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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And this is why I wasn't going to post a parse originally. I'm not going to get into an argument over whether members of a Dynamis shell that no longer exists were doing their job right or not. I'm not going to start arguing numbers about DRK for a person who doesn't even play much any more. I'm not going to go digging through my parses to find a time when that particular DRK topped the parse, which he did on more than one occasion.

This was an example to show what RaiseIII was talking about - that a good player can indeed take PUP to levels that embarass lesser DDs - but it's almost impossible for the best PUP to beat out the best in class on a job that specializes in damage.

If you want to go dig up a parse that shows how a DRK ought to be performing to prove your point, by all means go for it. I'm done.
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#101 Apr 21 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
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Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get sh*t for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.


You just gave a rather large post berating Raelix about posting false info, then yourself post blatantly false info.

Sorry, I guess my sarcasm glands have atrophied a bit due to recent lack of use, I was being excessively false for the sake of the lolddrdm meme. Thought I came through clear Smiley: dubious

Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
Okay guys, enough with the bashing back and forth.

Zelduh, you've been saying that other people don't supply the evidence to support that PUP is a less than stellar DD, but you've yet to supply any evidence yourself to show why you believe they are the best. If you want to try and convince people about your beliefs, you need to do it in a calm and rational manner, not just start berating them because your opinion differs from theirs. Even one of the best, well geared, most knowledgeable Puppetmasters I know of (Jinte) just pointed out that Puppetmaster falls short of the true DD, and he's one to not say that out of personal bias, but rather straightforward number crunching. Just because he didn't post said numbers doesn't mean that they don't exist. So I say this, if you want people to believe that they're as good as you say they are, then prove it with empirical data, not just spout out declarations without any way of proving it.

As for everyone else, do I even need to say it? Just don't start flaming or trolling one another.


She.

Raelix wrote:
Make entirely factual and relevant observation pertaining to the job I'm vastly intimate with and get ratebombed.

I like where this is going guys. Red Arrows are the secret to DD PUP taking over.


lolkarma.

Now, because I'm bored and have nothing better to do on a saturday evening, I'm going to go crunch some numbers and then prove both my points; 1: zelduh's being stupid, and 2: pup not being a zerg job does not automatically mean it sucks as a dd. Be back in a few hours with some generalized spitball numbers to account for a number of different scenarios to prove my points.

Changed my mind. There's way to much to account for in this math such that it satisfies everyone, and I really don't even give half a ****. I give about a ************* which is enough to chatter about it, but not enough to motivate me to keep fiddling with these numbers when I could be doing something more entertaining.

Edited, Apr 21st 2012 9:09pm by Jinte
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