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#152 Oct 30 2012 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Fermion wrote:
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An elite who half asses it, isn't elite.


Based on my definition of an elite, as an mmo player with well over a decade of active experience, it's simply someone with elite gear, it's never had anything to do with ability. That's been the generally accepted understanding for as long as I can remember.


That might be the generally accepted understanding amongst gimps, but elite player = elite gear + elite skill + experience.

Your mythical world where someone full timing drone earrings or some other less exaggerated example of not-elite gear still doesn't overcome those with actual elite facets of the entire equation. Plus, the vast majority of the time, those without elite gear have not been through the experience part of the equation as much as those with it.

Fermion wrote:

And we all know that everyone with elite gear is just such an awesome player right?


It's the most likely scenario. Far more likely than a gimp being an awesome player.


Fermion wrote:

Take this example:

Player A is a solid player, who doesn't have all of the latest greatest gear. Lets say he's 5% below optimum, but he's very engaged and paying attention.

Player B is an elite (my definition). He thinks so much of himself, that he's in /t laughing with his elite buddies about how he's going to destroy Player A.

The mob is popped, Player A is on it, he has an <stnpc> macro waiting to go, and he engages as fast as his connection allows. Player B on the other hand doesn't notice immediately, and it takes him an extra second to engage. Who wins?

New example:

All things being equal, say the elite still has a 5% higher ceiling than Player A. In the grand scheme of things, they're both only DDs, and that 5% really doesn't mean much individually.

Let's say the mob has 150k hp and there are 6 DDs in this 1 minute zerg. 150,000 / 60 = 2,500 dps for the alliance.

That comes out to 416 dps per DD. 416 * .95 = 395 dps for Player A.

Substitute Player A for the elite means Player A will take 63s (5% longer) to do 25k. 25,000 / 395 = 63s. But, it's not like the rest of the party disappears for those final 3 seconds, and in .6s, the damage will be made up by the combined damage of the other DDs. So in all reality, you've lost about .6s making the change.

Make all the witty remarks you like, that doesn't change the fact that the contribution of a single DD in a zerg is really not as important as you're trying to make it seem.


So in your first example, you appear to only give credit to Player A for paying attention. What about the elite players that do pay attention (which is the generally accepted definition of being an elite player in the first place)? Furthermore, I've played with a lot of elite players. They simply do not do what you say they do. They might do so in some unimportant, PUG group like a cake-walk Kaggen or Pil, but they aren't going to do important content except with players whose skill + gear + experience they trust. I call Non Sequitur on your myth of an example.

But wait, in your second example, even if the elite player wins, you still discount that (but apparently you didn't discount it in example one.) Hmmm, why am I not surprised about the hypocrisy....








Edited, Oct 30th 2012 1:13pm by TheBarrister
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#153 Oct 30 2012 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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But wait, in your second example, even if the elite player wins, you still discount that (but apparently you didn't discount it in example one.) Hmmm, why am I not surprised about the hypocrisy....


I wasn't discounting the fact that the elite won, I was calling out the gross exaggerations people make, when comparing one DD to another. Players (especially DDs) like to say things like "this piece of gear destroys that piece" or "x job is worthless", when the difference in kill speed between the two is negligible (under 1 second). As individuals, damage dealers have the least effect in overall kill speed of ANY role, so these endless arguments about x gear vs. y gear, or x DD vs. y DD really need to be taken in context, and not blown out of proportion.

Back in the old parser days, beating someone by 5% on a parser was considered huge, remember? Based on my previous example, that's only accounting for a 0.6s difference in kill speed. That's the point I was making, it's just basic algebra. The rest of your argument is semantics, and I'm not getting into that. Define elite however you like, it still doesn't change the math, or my point.

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#154 Oct 30 2012 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with you Fermion that people make gross exaggerations. My only point in the "elite" post I started was that elite is an equation, and not a single factor like gear. I've certainly partied with people who think they are elite, but may only have a couple pieces of gear that they are factoring into that equation. I've partied with others who don't have that gear and play better than the previous type. However, by and large, the people I've met with the top of the line gear for every slot and job they focus on, are the best players (all factors considered) at those jobs. For example, I have yet to meet a player with a Valks Breastplate upgraded to optimal DD augments who didn't have the other, baseline gear to support that upgrade. Or someone with a 99 weapon. However, I've met a lot of +2 Empyrean gear 5/5 DDs with 85 Empyrean weapons who think they are top of the line. Last week one of them (not the alliance leader) asked that I proc dagger on Pil. I was the sole Ukon Warrior in the alliance. I was /SAM. There was a Thief in the alliance. I was at the point in my FFXI experience that this did not surprise me.
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#155 Oct 30 2012 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
I'm going to treat that post by Fujilives like an underpaid TA. tl;dr, 10/10 points on your homework.

I tend to share the sentiment that parses can't be the be-all of a situation. I used to argue somewhat similarly back in the day with people ******** about RDM's OPness related to Convert and supporting a party when you just couldn't plug any RDM into a situation and expect miracles. Both the skill of the RDM and the skill/intelligence of their peers as a make or break in making it work. The unfortunate truth was too often it didn't work, or at least to the expected standard some would dictate through lenses like EXP/hr.

More specific to pet jobs, though, and in any MMO I've played, for that matter, I always cautiously look at them in the cumulative sense. Some people will simply not be happy until the pet/master comprise of two individual PCs in strength, and I believe that an imperative no-no in design. Unfortunately, working around this has multiple paths and any chosen path may not favor the style of one particular person with the archetype. Were I to scold FFXI in one aspect, it would be Jugs actually being consumable items that cost a player gil. If it were just a matter of a BST being able to call a crab, beetle, or whatever upon certain levels, this would just shift efficiency more toward JA timers/use and the general situations where a given pet would shine. It's a pseudo-hybrid philosophy represented even through PUP with the heads/attachments, just with their own can o' worms for mechanics.

Ultimately, doing the most damage is the best measure of fun for some people. It's also the easiest to document, as parsers and even hypothetical math indicate. My usual concern when looking into a class is just deciding if it's fun to play, and if in that process, it doesn't feel glaringly behind others in similar roles. I don't think any game ever has ever achieved perfect balance, but just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it shouldn't be striven for. FFXI has more than its share of flaws, and while I've personally focused on some of my more preferred interests, I'm not ignorant of others. Not always popular when I do pipe in with an "outsider's" perspective, either, as BSTs and I have clashed heads enough in the past regarding things like the MPK patch or even how the claim system works and how some believe it should've relative to Charm.
#156 Oct 30 2012 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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If only there was a way to attribute damage to who is responsible for said damage.

For instance, if you do 10k damage/minute without a bard, and 15k with one, that extra 5k would go to the bard... or the mage casting Dia III, Samurai who used Tachi:Whateveritis, dancer stacking box step, thief using feint..

Most 'support' actions get no credit. Bard/Corsair buffs are the rare exception, but mostly because you get a big icon that tells you they are up. I've never seen anyone attribute an extra-strong WS to the fact that the enemy had def down stacked on it.
#157 Oct 30 2012 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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ItsAMyri wrote:
If only there was a way to attribute damage to who is responsible for said damage.

For instance, if you do 10k damage/minute without a bard, and 15k with one, that extra 5k would go to the bard... or the mage casting Dia III, Samurai who used Tachi:Whateveritis, dancer stacking box step, thief using feint..

Most 'support' actions get no credit. Bard/Corsair buffs are the rare exception, but mostly because you get a big icon that tells you they are up. I've never seen anyone attribute an extra-strong WS to the fact that the enemy had def down stacked on it.


Sure they get credit. They either (a) don't get used because they weren't well thought out before implementation (e.g., during the development phase); or (b) are soooo "overpowered" and people actually use them to accomplish things (e.g., Embrava, Perfect Defense) and those without access to these jobs complain incessantly on the Official Forums that the game is "broken", thus causing no one to have any fun.
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#158 Oct 30 2012 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, no one has ever invited a bard or cast the spell 'haste' on a melee, and Dia/Def Down has never been a staple anywhere. Embrava and Perfect Defense are the only support abilities in FFXI, and without them support is dead forever.
#159 Oct 30 2012 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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ItsAMyri wrote:
Yes, no one has ever invited a bard or cast the spell 'haste' on a melee, and Dia/Def Down has never been a staple anywhere. Embrava and Perfect Defense are the only support abilities in FFXI, and without them support is dead forever.


After the "e.g." were examples, not meant to be exclusionary, but meant to illustrate that when support does get credit, it's not necessarily a good end result...
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#160 Oct 30 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
I'm going to treat that post by Fujilives like an underpaid TA. tl;dr, 10/10 points on your homework.

It appears to be a totally unrelated rant about trolling in WoW. Guy needs to get a blog.
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#161 Oct 31 2012 at 4:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Erecia wrote:
ItsAMyri wrote:
I'm going to treat that post by Fujilives like an underpaid TA. tl;dr, 10/10 points on your homework.

It appears to be a totally unrelated rant about trolling in WoW. Guy needs to get a blog.

If you were to have read it, you'd see that it was merely an example showing that depending on what you'd fight, the jobs that might be more optimal than others differ greatly and there's no real way to pick one above another. Like saying monks on skeletons, stunners on AoE death move monsters and things like that. There's no "one all be all" job, and even unappreciated jobs get really really close. Despite it being a ****-swinging contest apparently. It was a tad long though, i'll give you that.
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#162 Nov 01 2012 at 5:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ultimately, doing the most damage is the best measure of fun for some people. It's also the easiest to document, as parsers and even hypothetical math indicate. My usual concern when looking into a class is just deciding if it's fun to play, and if in that process, it doesn't feel glaringly behind others in similar roles. I don't think any game ever has ever achieved perfect balance, but just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it shouldn't be striven for. FFXI has more than its share of flaws, and while I've personally focused on some of my more preferred interests, I'm not ignorant of others. Not always popular when I do pipe in with an "outsider's" perspective, either, as BSTs and I have clashed heads enough in the past regarding things like the MPK patch or even how the claim system works and how some believe it should've relative to Charm.


That really depends on the game. In a casual friendly light MMO where you can log in and do a few things, then playing only "fun" can work fine. In a more, I don't know, "hardcore" MMO where your expected to schedule events, gather with other players and work together within a strategy to defeat content, you need to actually defeat that content. Having the ability to win the fight is the first priority, after that it breaks down into percentage change to win, if one of your preferred "fun" jobs works in the strategy then great, otherwise it may require you to play a "non-fun" job to get the win in. This is particularly bad for FFXI with it's job systems and the developers insistence that the jobs be "different", meaning the ability that makes / breaks the event for one job may not be available on other jobs in the same category. For example you could attempt a legion run with nothing but BSTs, would be "fun" but you'd also not get much done and would never progress. Same thing with ADL and Prov Watcher. Arch Omega / Ultima have a much more relaxed requirement as you can actually kite / tank them effectively while you recover.

"Damage output" isn't about fun, though some people are naturally highly competitive about it. It's about hitting a certain bar that enables you to win the content, rather then wiping. In WoW speak this is known as a "Gear Check" fight, one when the monster Rages within a few minutes and you need to kill it before that happens or you lose. No matter the strategy used, without a certain level of offensive firepower you will never win the fight and thus never advance into the content. For FFXI this seems to be every single mega boss SE's created in the past year or two. "Elite" level gear is nice and all, but it doesn't account for the kind of percentage differences we tend to see. Having a relic at 99 doesn't increase your damage 300~500%, nor does having the various NNI gear sets. When you have great disparity between two similar DD's then what your really a having is one of them watching TV, talking to their friends or otherwise not paying attention to the fight. Maybe their not using macros or ensuring their standing within range. Parses will outline that like a huge red flag, and in events where it's "do or wipe" someone not paying attention is doing a disservice to their fellow players.
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#163 Nov 02 2012 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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This is a great thread
Let's bump it againanuallynobodyisright.jpg
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#164 Nov 02 2012 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
However, I've met a lot of +2 Empyrean gear 5/5 DDs with 85 Empyrean weapons who think they are top of the line. Last week one of them (not the alliance leader) asked that I proc dagger on Pil. I was the sole Ukon Warrior in the alliance. I was /SAM. There was a Thief in the alliance. I was at the point in my FFXI experience that this did not surprise me.


Why wasn't the thf on it before anyone even thought to ask you? That's my question.

On a related note, I really dislike the whole focus on "elite" everything, not because I don't want to get better, but because I find it a block to me getting better.

Does that sound weird? Hear me out.

I know, for example, that I am perfectly capable of being a useful proccer on my blue mage in most voidwatch content, especially on the lower tier. Yet, my gear on blue mage isn't very exceptional. Yet my blue mage skill level is very high (nearly capped), I eat INT food, I wear MACC/INT gear, I moved all my merits into blu magic acc (over physical potency), and I very rarely get resists (certainly less than other "better geared" blus I have played with).

Still. It stresses me out to join say a Pil run (which I know I can handle just fine), because I am afraid of getting judged on my gear. Yet, in order to get better gear I need to do these and other fights. It's a catch 22. The focus on already having the good gear takes away from the fact that a player starts NOT HAVING the good gear.

Or whm, there is another one. My whm is not very well geared at all. Full stop. I've been asked to come whm to voidwatch before, and I hate pulling it out. HATE. I only leveled whm to help my LS mates with a few cure bombs in abyssea. Yet, when I have, I've noticed that even though I'm not the one with the nice gear, I am KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE.

Still, when people look at me, they see a gimp. Even if I am sitting there, stressing myself to **** behind my keyboard, desperately trying to ensure people stay alive. Would I be better with better gear? Of course! No one is disputing that. But I sometimes feel the playerbase focuses so much on gear (especially at first glance) that they neglect everything else. Like who is actually paying attention and pressing buttons and getting stuff done.

And invisible stuff (like skilling up) matters a lot. Yet 9/10 people judge on gear. Even though it is perfectly possible to play as another job, get some gear, pay someone to level up the job for the gear, slap it on and ride. And LOTS of people do that.

TL;DR

Gear does matter. It does set two equally skilled and paying attention players apart, but by judging people on whether people have the absolute best gear at any one time is rather narrow minded and doesn't capture the fullness of what it is to be a decent player.

Also: I don't consider myself to be particularly exceptional - just competent, able to read and comprehend, and usually, somewhat prepared.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2012 11:40am by Olorinus
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#165 Nov 02 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I also dislike "elite" content that basically locks out people from participating for whatever arbitrary reason, I can at least acknowledge some people want more challenge. That's when I look to future content ideally having difficulty levels where the resulting fights/mechanics differ, while gear from earlier difficulties could be upgraded (or acquired within the harder difficulty, too). In a perfect environment, anyone who gets everything for a given job from the normal mode should have all the tools they need for hard. Those of actual higher skill could probably even skip the normal steps, but I loathe the concept of DPS checks/rage timers if only for penalizing defensive styles of play or not using the "in" jobs.

I've been a bit spoiled by other games having "inclusive" systems where people can just come and go from an event at their leisure. While they also have more standard stuff like dungeons, it's not like others coming and going from the lighter content is a detriment to your own personal progress. Basically, dynamic scaling at work to keep things from being faceroll.
#166 Nov 02 2012 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
TheBarrister wrote:
However, I've met a lot of +2 Empyrean gear 5/5 DDs with 85 Empyrean weapons who think they are top of the line. Last week one of them (not the alliance leader) asked that I proc dagger on Pil. I was the sole Ukon Warrior in the alliance. I was /SAM. There was a Thief in the alliance. I was at the point in my FFXI experience that this did not surprise me.


Why wasn't the thf on it before anyone even thought to ask you? That's my question.

On a related note, I really dislike the whole focus on "elite" everything, not because I don't want to get better, but because I find it a block to me getting better.

Does that sound weird? Hear me out.

I know, for example, that I am perfectly capable of being a useful proccer on my blue mage in most voidwatch content, especially on the lower tier. Yet, my gear on blue mage isn't very exceptional. Yet my blue mage skill level is very high (nearly capped), I eat INT food, I wear MACC/INT gear, I moved all my merits into blu magic acc (over physical potency), and I very rarely get resists (certainly less than other "better geared" blus I have played with).

Still. It stresses me out to join say a Pil run (which I know I can handle just fine), because I am afraid of getting judged on my gear. Yet, in order to get better gear I need to do these and other fights. It's a catch 22. The focus on already having the good gear takes away from the fact that a player starts NOT HAVING the good gear.

Or whm, there is another one. My whm is not very well geared at all. Full stop. I've been asked to come whm to voidwatch before, and I hate pulling it out. HATE. I only leveled whm to help my LS mates with a few cure bombs in abyssea. Yet, when I have, I've noticed that even though I'm not the one with the nice gear, I am KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE.

Still, when people look at me, they see a gimp. Even if I am sitting there, stressing myself to **** behind my keyboard, desperately trying to ensure people stay alive. Would I be better with better gear? Of course! No one is disputing that. But I sometimes feel the playerbase focuses so much on gear (especially at first glance) that they neglect everything else. Like who is actually paying attention and pressing buttons and getting stuff done.

And invisible stuff (like skilling up) matters a lot. Yet 9/10 people judge on gear. Even though it is perfectly possible to play as another job, get some gear, pay someone to level up the job for the gear, slap it on and ride. And LOTS of people do that.

TL;DR

Gear does matter. It does set two equally skilled and paying attention players apart, but by judging people on whether people have the absolute best gear at any one time is rather narrow minded and doesn't capture the fullness of what it is to be a decent player.

Also: I don't consider myself to be particularly exceptional - just competent, able to read and comprehend, and usually, somewhat prepared.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2012 11:40am by Olorinus


No one is arguing what you are responding to. The person I was resopnding to was arguing about these mythical elitely geared players who are somehow utter nincompoops at playing their jobs. That's about as far from reality as saying a level 1, no subjob, first day player is cream of the crop. elite player = gear + skill + experience. I have yet to see elites fling as many insults as I do those podium thumping that elitists are ruining their game and they are just a bunch of afkers bragging about their gear. You're bound to get judged on gear. Grow some thick skin, learn to deal with it, and make sure you know your setups so you can point out the hypocrites if you have to.
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#167 Nov 02 2012 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Still. It stresses me out to join say a Pil run (which I know I can handle just fine), because I am afraid of getting judged on my gear. Yet, in order to get better gear I need to do these and other fights. It's a catch 22. The focus on already having the good gear takes away from the fact that a player starts NOT HAVING the good gear.
I don't know your gear so I can't comment on you specifically... but a vast majority of those judging others on their gear stems from gear choices and not the gear quality. This includes things such as gearing up 40% haste on gear or a DD wearing dex rings while meleeing. In my experience from being on the judging side, if there is any discussion of a player's gear quality, it comes from someone trying to skip usually easy content. Showing up for Ig-Alima in pearle/aurora/teal when empy+2 would be a more reasonable step for the player.

Players judging that someone is gimp during a Pil run if they're missing NNI gear is much, much less common than you would think.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2012 12:11am by xypin
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#168 Nov 02 2012 at 11:56 PM Rating: Default
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That really depends on the game. In a casual friendly light MMO where you can log in and do a few things, then playing only "fun" can work fine. In a more, I don't know, "hardcore" MMO where your expected to schedule events, gather with other players and work together within a strategy to defeat content, you need to actually defeat that content.


You have never actually played WoW at the Hardcore level have you?

Quote:
In WoW speak this is known as a "Gear Check" fight, one when the monster Rages within a few minutes and you need to kill it before that happens or you lose. No matter the strategy used, without a certain level of offensive firepower you will never win the fight and thus never advance into the content.


And then the next boss spits dozens of black and white orbs at you that will one shot you if they hit you. Essentially you get an aura and dodge opposite colors. At the same time you are keeping your DPS, Healing, and Tanking Rotations up. In FFXI, Tan tanking...check. Mage Healing...Check....damage guys damaging. Check.

If you think Procs are actual strategy you need to get out and a different game. We need one of every job...except RDM. If you are into strategy I suggest this game personally.



This group of guys RNK fought the highest level PVE fight in the game, while at the same time fighting a hostile PVP fleet of Battleships.

That is pretty ballin.

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#169 Nov 03 2012 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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I always wanted to try that game but I have "Should I even try to start this late in the game?" syndrome that's holding me back...
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#170 Nov 03 2012 at 3:28 AM Rating: Default
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xypin wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Still. It stresses me out to join say a Pil run (which I know I can handle just fine), because I am afraid of getting judged on my gear. Yet, in order to get better gear I need to do these and other fights. It's a catch 22. The focus on already having the good gear takes away from the fact that a player starts NOT HAVING the good gear.
I don't know your gear so I can't comment on you specifically... but a vast majority of those judging others on their gear stems from gear choices and not the gear quality. This includes things such as gearing up 40% haste on gear or a DD wearing dex rings while meleeing. In my experience from being on the judging side, if there is any discussion of a player's gear quality, it comes from someone trying to skip usually easy content. Showing up for Ig-Alima in pearle/aurora/teal when empy+2 would be a more reasonable step for the player.

Players judging that someone is gimp during a Pil run if they're missing NNI gear is much, much less common than you would think.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2012 12:11am by xypin


This is pretty spot on. When people talk about gear their rarely referring to needing the absolute "best" but rather to poor decisions. Usually this indicates someone who doesn't know the battle mechanics of FFXI and doesn't understand Haste / Accuracy and so forth or is lazy and didn't acquire some very easy basic item sets. Uncapped skills is a HUGE issue, due to people leveling so many jobs so fast, many have jobs at 99 that do not have their required skills blue. This includes their primary weapons, any "proc" weapons their expected to have and any magic skills that are important to the job. To take BLU as an example, they should have capped Sword, Club and Blue Magic Skill. Getting 24%+ gear haste is easy and if accuracy has been an issue use Sushi / Pizza. Have separate macro sets for TP, WS and various spells. Trust me, it's very easy to see the people who don't use proper macro sets / food, their the ones who never blink and parse 50~60% accuracy.

If someones done this then nobody is going to ostracize them about their gear, they maybe give some gear advice or priorities but they won't call someone out. If their running around in full pink using M.Acc swords, well expect to leave a bad impression. At the high end FFXI is all about your reputation, groups tend to pickup a few members prior to leaving for an event and they tend to look for known good impression plays first.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#172 Nov 20 2012 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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So, I've been back for a few months now, still catching up, but have an observation. To me, best DD used to mean best Zerg dmg, best DD's could bring in xp the fastest. Now xp is so easy to get. I go camping for seals and stuff, do atma boss fights and stuff. It doesn't seem like the zerg thing makes sense anymore the aby.
For pandamonium warden, I had to stay out of AOE range, and kill the pets that spawned on each form. In that situation, I felt like being able to kill while staying alive, was more important than parsing well.

I guess I'll quote the cliche, it's situational. Any thoughts on this?
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#173 Nov 20 2012 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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If I'm reading you right, it appears you're asking if there's still a use for min-maxing in order to make sure you're the best zerg DD. I believe the answer is an emphatic yes. You aren't going to clear fights like PW without at least one or two people that know what they're doing and are doing a lot of damage. I've parsed PW runs where I'm doing 40% of the alliance damage and we're barely squeaking through the fights. (A particular 40%/15%/10%/<10% split stands out in my mind). If I DCed, I have no doubt at all that the alliance would crumble because they just wouldn't be able to kill the monsters.

However, it costs a lot of time and gil to become a good DD these days and the proc system has certainly created a tolerance and use for people that aren't the best "zerg DD" so you don't need to feel particularly ashamed when you show up to the fight and parse 5% damage on your Ninja. When it comes down to it, though, you still need a few guys that do good damage in order to kill things and there's still a use for the answer to the OP question.

AFAIK, the best DDs in the game are Koga SAM, Ryunohige DRG, Ragnarok DRK, and Ukon WAR. If you're fighting lower level content (like ADL) instead of things like Legion, Spharai or Verethranga Monk is good too. When I list these jobs, I don't mean that a Hoarfrost DRK or Heshikiri-hasebe SAMs aren't going to do decent damage (probably the best non-magian DDs in the game at the moment), I just mean that these guys will do absolutely mindblowing amounts of damage.
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#174 Nov 21 2012 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Hoarfrost DRK isn't much better than an AH DRK, a difference of 7.5 accuracy from the DEX on it over Gram, see. Borealis only carries a +5-10% WS damage advantage (the proc rate is crap and only 1.5x).

Just mostly want to point out that rare-drop-from-a-hard-NM != more than marginally better than crap. At the very least: grabbing the best weapon off the shelf doesn't make you top DD automatically, but some of the most critical aspects of being a good DD come from the weapon you wield (Accuracy on Relic weapons, OAT magians, exclusive high-grade WS of Empy).

tl;dr A Hoarfrost DRK probaby spent weeks doing Ig'Alima for a weapon you could pretty much buy an equivalent to off the AH. Geared equally, they'd be within a few percent of each other, and I wouldn't rate them as 'best non-magian DD' without some major hangups over sub and gear.
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#175 Nov 21 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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If one number is larger than the other, than it is of higher value. Your comment doesn't really make much sense. a few % is a few %, if it was the same then it would be the same.

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#176 Nov 21 2012 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
If one number is larger than the other, than it is of higher value. Your comment doesn't really make much sense. a few % is a few %, if it was the same then it would be the same.

Except that VoidWatch clears, atmacites, and kills upon kills upon kills of Ig'Alima to get a paltry upgrade over an AH sword should never be understated.

Or to be more blunt: By the time you're doing Ig'Alima, you'd ******* better have a superior weapon to Hoarfrost/Borealis, be it OAT or STR sword for those not in the Relic market. Being anything but a leech at Ig is far more work and derping about than magian trials.

Hoarfrost/Borealis/Wroth are precisely in that category of "By the time you can get it, you don't need it."

You can probably tell I just really hate people trying to qualify lolHoarfrost.
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#177 Nov 21 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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You gotta be kidding me... By that notion half this game isn't and has never been worth playing. There are literally hundreds of side grades that people chase after, marginal upgrades. **** most of the crap people go after isn't even needed. You don't need the best of the best to beat anything in this game, you need bare minimum, and people with brains to know how to use it. Essentially most of endgame is really not needed at all. If you can kill something for its loot, then you don't need the loot that drops to kill it again, and when the next patch comes out you can buy the side grade from the AH that jumps you into bare minimum for the next content.

If the DPS is higher with one weapon, it is better. Period. You are trying to compare the value of the weapon to time expended obtaining it. Which has no bearing at all on the DPS value.

I agree with you that the time investment isn't worth the side grade. In most cases this games time investment isn't worth the reward in the end anyway, **** Joyeuse is still one of the best single handed swords (non relic or the like) in terms of overall DPS value, but people ignore it because it says level 70 or w/e on it, and instead of taking a trip down to kill the Charbydis or w/e, they would rather spend weeks grinding through mobs to get a marginally (talking a few %) better weapon in the OAX line.

That doesn't change the fact that the OAX end result is better, but value of time is irrelevant in that discussion. People all value time differently, spending weeks working for a marginal upgrade is a waste of time to me, but to some people having that extra few % is totally worth it. But just because it takes longer doesn't mean that the end value is less.

So ya I don't get your arguments, the weapon is better, period.

Edited, Nov 21st 2012 12:53pm by rdmcandie
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#178 Nov 21 2012 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a downgrade from anything you should have if you're doing Ig'Alima often enough to get it.

I don't understand how this is a difficult concept. Yes, it's half a step above ****-tier, that doesn't make it worth getting nor a Hoarfrost DRK hand-over-fist better than an AH DRK. I'd sooner scrutinize them on their choice of grip than Hoarfrost vs. Gram. Dead serious, having Rose Strap is a better measure of a DRK than having Hoarfrost if you wanna talk about 'side' or 'marginal' upgrades from old unrequited content.

Someone who has Hoarfrost and nothing better is either bandwagon, a moron, or both. It means you play enough to have made a decent weapon, but didn't and got a ****-tier+1 instead.
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#179 Nov 21 2012 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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eh, maybe they played a different job and got lucky on Ig and are using it cause they have it?

/shrug
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#180 Nov 21 2012 at 9:00 PM Rating: Default
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White Mage has my vote for best DD in FFXI now. Dia III is deadly, don't try to f**k with me after that is cast.

Can you out-DD a repeated Cure VI?!,......................didn't think so.

Edited, Nov 21st 2012 8:00pm by Nuhnisgodly
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#181 Nov 21 2012 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
It's a downgrade from anything you should have if you're doing Ig'Alima often enough to get it.

I don't understand how this is a difficult concept. Yes, it's half a step above sh*t-tier, that doesn't make it worth getting nor a Hoarfrost DRK hand-over-fist better than an AH DRK. I'd sooner scrutinize them on their choice of grip than Hoarfrost vs. Gram. Dead serious, having Rose Strap is a better measure of a DRK than having Hoarfrost if you wanna talk about 'side' or 'marginal' upgrades from old unrequited content.

Someone who has Hoarfrost and nothing better is either bandwagon, a moron, or both. It means you play enough to have made a decent weapon, but didn't and got a sh*t-tier+1 instead.


Firstly no one said they were hand over fist than an AH DRK, Bryn said that they were likely among the top Damage Performers. If it out DPS's AH weapons it is better, how much is irrelevant. Time taken to attain said item is irrelevant, all that matter is one is capable of posting better number.

Now don't get me wrong, it is not worth the time to get i don't think, I think it is a marginal improvement, maybe at worst a side grade, and I agree if you spend that time getting it, then why not spend it making something better. But who am I to say what something means to someone else. Its not my call if someone finds the time invested worth it, If you do all the power too you, good luck.

The point I was making is that you can not compare what you consider time value to another. I am sure there are many people who have spent hours/days/weeks/years? Attaining an item that was marginally better than they could attain in a less amount of time. Some people call it a badge of honor, some people call it playing the game, and who is to say what is right and wrong in that, or valuable or invaluable.

What I can tell you however is that if one weapon deals more overall DPS than another, it is in fact an upgrade, be it marginal, or significant again, is irrelevant.

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#182 Nov 21 2012 at 11:23 PM Rating: Default
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Didn't Pchan has a parse showing that Mythic GKT , ON AVERAGE (pay @#%^ing attention), was the most often winner of best DMG at wide variety of high level events today?

On weak to piercing dmg I think Ryuhinge won but for the most part, 99 Mythic SAM kind of beats everything.

Edited, Nov 21st 2012 11:23pm by Busaman
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#183 Nov 22 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't mean they'd be top-tier DDs compared to the now-common relics/empyreans. I meant they'd be good for non-magian options. Some people do Ig-Alima for Ogier's Coat, Riftdross, etc. and end up with Hoarfrost Blade. It was mostly to let people who don't feel like committing to a magian or 99 R/M/E know what to aim for. I mean, STR GSs being better is fab, but they cost like 5 million gil worth of geodes and hours of otherwise-profitless work. Doing Ig-Alima makes you gil while you farm for the blade. Yeah, yeah. There are better ways to make gil. Still, some people prefer Voidwatch for reasons that are entirely unclear to me.

When I parse (on WAR with a 99 Ukon or 99 Ragnarok for MS) here's what I notice:
1) Idiots never do well
If I'm fairly sure someone is not an idiot and am looking to compare the potential of their build to mine:
2) The only non-R/M/E 2H user that consistently breaks 50% of my damage is Hoarfrost DRK or (in Voidwatch with Discipline) SAM with the Save TP GKT.
3) The only 1H users that consistently breaks 50% of my damage is 99 Verth/Spharai Monks, which can do quite well especially against lower level content.
4) Dragoons without Ryunohige, SAMs without 99 R/M/Es, Scythe DRKs, and 1H users other than Monks with 99R/M/E are consistently <50% of my damage regardless how competent they are.

In practice, through way too many pickup Voidwatch groups, ADL zergs, and so on, the above is what I observe. These are all high buff situations with varying level correction (Voidwatch high, Legion high, ADL low). They aren't being compared to a particularly awesome example because my gear for WAR isn't even the best. I lack E.body/P.body and I'm a Taru. Still, the only place I parse <20% despite being in an alliance is Legion, where I've tried to make sure we only have DDs as good or better than me.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 10:56am by Byrthnoth
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#184 Nov 24 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Someone who does Voidwatch enough to have Hoarfrost/Borealis has enough invested in Voidwatch - atmacites, temps, and experience - to be good at Voidwatch? An event with buff stacking and prevalent tendencies that heavily favor vanilla (non-multihit or -hitbuilt) weapons via the degree that methods other than Save TP for increasing WS frequency, methods garnered by procuring an OAT weapon or having a proper hitbuild hence being a good DD outside of Voidwatch, actually become counter-intuitive to increasing damage output?

`What a contrived and baseless coincidence! What a staggeringly different world I live in with the revelation that with just +10 DEX a weapon can raise a lowly AH DRK into a job that deals over half the damage of a 99 Ukon WAR (in the sole event of the game they've already dedicated copious resources to)~!`

Yeah, this conversation is worthless. I know you guys are smarter than this.
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#185 Nov 24 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its not about being smart, its now about you dictating what time is worth. Perhaps to you it is a waste of time, someone else however might find the time invested to be well worth it. At the end of the day if it is doing more damage than AH stuff, even by .01% it is still technically better. The only variable that can be questioned is time, but time only applies to you. Personally I agree it is a waste of time, but who am I to speak for others.
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#186 Nov 24 2012 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's a huge gap in the DD spectrum at the moment. Due to personal experience with relic holders, I tend to not equate having an R/M/E with being good at the related jobs, but that means the only explanation for the absolutely massive gap that I observe between good non-R/M/E users and good R/M/E users is the damage potential of their weapons.

Ragnarok level 99 - 143 base damage, 431 delay, Critical Hit Rate +14%, 2.5x proc on the first swing of an attack round probably 16% of the time
OAT GS level 99 - 104 base damage, 480 delay, 40% OAT rate

Under optimal conditions for its comparison (perfectly capped fSTR for the OAT GS and only the same amount for Ragnarok, and assuming 0% DA in both situations and ignoring Rag's 2.5x damage procs and crit rate) its DPS still lags Ragnarok by 5%. Using a moderate amount of Double Attack (20%) and 8 fSTR (at some point I figured out this is the fSTR I have on WAR against Morta in my TP set) while still ignoring 2.5x damage procs and the crit rate, its DPS lags Ragnarok by 20%. Using an 11 Fighter's Roll with a WAR (+24%, wikia values) and 8 fSTR and assuming 2.5x damage procs at a 16% rate for Ragnarok while still ignoring crits, its DPS lags Ragnarok's by 50%. In the last case, which includes pretty reasonable buffs if you have a COR, there's also not a very large difference in WS frequency between the two and Ragnarok WSs about 15% harder (assuming 200 STR in your WS set and a <108 VIT target):

480, 5 hits to 100 TP : 3 rounds average = 1442 delay without delay reduction or 288 with capped delay reduction, or 408 with capped delay reduction accounting for WS/JA delay
431, 6 hits to 100 TP : 4.16 rounds average = 1800 delay without delay reduction or 360 with capped delay reduction, or 480 with capped delay reduction accounting for WS/JA delay

So the OAT GS WSs 18% more often (ignoring any extra TP overflow it may have and the greater cost of inefficiency with it), but WSs 15% softer, which works out to exactly break-even on WS damage if used optimally. 50% less TP phase damage (minimum, still ignoring crits) and break-even for WS damage (maximum, assuming optimal usage and ignoring overflow). Even if they're absolutely inhumanly perfect, I'd expect the OAT GS user to lose to an equally skilled Ragnarok user by 25% (same WS damage component as the Ragnarok, half the TP phase damage as the Ragnarok, so assuming a 50/50 split for the Ragnarok user then it's effectively a 25/50 split for the OAT GS user). This entire analysis was carried out assuming Ragnarok's accuracy boost is useless.


I already assumed optimal playstyle and optimal efficiency and made essentially every assumption in favor of what is widely considered the best non-R/E GS option, so the spoilered math supports my assumption that the lower performance I observe in game from OAT GS users is a result of their weapon rather than their playstyle. As you start to introduce inefficiency, account for everything I ignored that favors Ragnarok, add other JAs uses, etc. it begins to affect the OAT GS user more than the Ragnarok GS user and it doesn't take long to slide down to the very substantial damage difference that I observe in practice. Furthermore, the OAT GS is likely the closest magian competition to an R/M/E weapon of any 2H weapon type because so much GS damage comes from Resolution and Resolution's mod is so high that base weapon damage has little effect on it. Something like Hoarfrost Blade is competitive when you have high amounts of DA, but it's still unlikely to be better. STR/Attack GS might be better, but if you sacrifice your 6-hit then the difference would be pretty slight.

So you can either invest 4mil making a STR/Attack GS or OAT GS that is still going to lose handily to a well-used Ragnarok, or you can farm gil by doing Ig-Alima to upgrade your Gram to a Hoarfrost blade, continue to farm Dynamis/Salvage, and use all that gil to buy a 99 Ragnarok. They cost something like 200mil these days and if you start farming for it you will get there much faster than you expect. I suspect that this is why SE thinks it is okay to have such a large potential damage gap between R/M/E options and non-R/M/E options.

At 75, the damage gap was much smaller for most weapon types. For instance:
Bravura - D99, 488 delay, 8% 2x damage procs on the first hit, Acc+20
Perdu Voulge - D96, 504 delay, 10 Atk, 5 Acc
At the time of Perdu's release, Bravura's 488 delay meant you had to make a few more sacrifices (using Askar Korazin, if you could get it) to get the STP to 6-hit on WAR/SAM. The WS damage increase was minor (3 base damage). The WS frequency increase was minor (~3%). The accuracy increase was minor (if you're using Askar Korazin instead of E.body for the STP). The TP-phase increase was the most significant, a 13% increase. Relics were an improvement at that point of the game, but the improvement was much much smaller than what we observe now. To be honest, I have been anticipating an announcement of non-R/M/E magian system expansion for quite a while now because it's so obviously "unbalanced" and pushes casuals away from DD jobs.
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#187 Nov 24 2012 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Allow me to point out the absurdity more succinctly: Someone with no Voidwatch clears, maybe a half dozen stones for that matter, asks you what weapon they should use for their freshly-99 DRK once they have 5/5 Resolution and finished other merits and finish skilling up with Ferrara.

Are you really gonna say Hoarfrost Blade? No! You tell them to go spend 800k on Gram, which they can even sell once they have something better (I did, at 300k profit even). That's why it was an asinine endorsement. "It performs well in Voidwatch" is probably the biggest confirmation bias I have ever seen. Seriously, ouch.


Yeah, Magians need another tier, and not just base damage. They jacked R/M/E so much with just the 90-99 upgrades (despite needing to make them 'worth it') that nothing else competing is more the problem than where to start. This game has indeed become Ragnarok Fantasy XI. The other issue is just how ridiculous Resolution is. An attack penalty does not a downside make when you give it to the job with the highest attack in the game.

Another option is another rescaling of TP/Delay, but that would probably just turn the current 5-hit wall that neuters Scythe into a 4-hit wall and even more troubles with WS saturation. It already favors OAT over Rag as best it can. 480 delay is currently 'optimal' from a TP/time and hitbuild standpoint. There'd have to be some other approach, like a trait that favors higher delay without using a method of, or resulting in, more cycle compression.

Going back to the attack penalty concept, you could make the penalty mandatory much like Level Correction was made to be long ago. This could also be lent to effects like Bio, which would then always have an effect on damage dealt, which would be good for mitigation of mob->player attacks too. Unfortunately... this would probably hurt DRG and Drakesbane (which also has a penalty) more than DRK and Resolution, lawl.

So that makes two things this game needs or it will just continue to devolve into an even more severe case of the gearing tropes it already experiences: Haste Rework, Attack/Defense Rework (and still more for Mob vs. Player than the issue currently discussed).

Though I think unstacking and lightly uncapping haste categories would have a very positive effect all around. It's the best way to raise the gear ceiling for all jobs and all weapons while retaining certain 'themes' such as Desperate Blows or Dual Wield. This might remedy enough of the 'cap haste, stack multihit' paradigm to let non-relic shine a little. Subtractive haste was a mistake from the start anyway.

Edited, Nov 24th 2012 11:09am by Raelix
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#188 Nov 24 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Hoarfrost is a fine placeholder while someone is working on an OaT or a Rag.

As for "doing so much Ig alima"

BWHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I've thrown maybe 10 of them away already, and I don't even do Ig that much. Hoarfrost is a stupidly common drop, along with the Scyth. Nearly everyone I know has one or has thrown one away, most of them don't have a geared / kited out DRK. If they ever desired to build a DRK then they already have an acceptable weapon ready to use while they build something better. Why would someone spend the money on an AH GS when chances are they already have a better weapon sitting on their moggle.
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#189 Nov 24 2012 at 7:30 PM Rating: Default
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ITT: Hoarfrost DRKs dig for validation.
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#190 Nov 25 2012 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
ITT: Hoarfrost DRKs dig for validation.


http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19749/ragnarok

*Cough* *Cough*

Keep trying.
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#191 Nov 25 2012 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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The drop rate isn't super high, but it's better than most other voidwatch drops: http://www.ffxidb.com/items/19175
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#192 Nov 25 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
The drop rate isn't super high, but it's better than most other voidwatch drops: http://www.ffxidb.com/items/19175


Yeah but you'll be doing 6~12 of them at a time. Means chances are that you'll get it while seeking the body.
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#193 Nov 25 2012 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can't believe you are still arguing over this. It shouldn't even be an argument. You do not have the luxury of telling people what is worth their time or not...and neither do I. If it out DPS's anything on the AH it is better, and that is all that matters, how much is irrelevant, and time value is impossible to use in a comparison as we all value it differently.

(god I sound like a broken record.)
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#194 Nov 25 2012 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, it's fine for those of us who only really do endgame on mage jobs. My poor little WAR still uses Vermeil Bhuj, because I'm working on Dharp for my main job and don't feel the need to invest in two empies at once. Since my WAR's main use these days is red procs in Abyssea when our actual Ukon war is absent, and for that I'm tossing on low damage weapons anyway, the Vermeil is adequate to finish killing whatever thing we're killing.

If I considered WAR my main job, though, I'd be squiggling around to get my grubby mitts on Ukon.

Edited, Nov 25th 2012 10:42am by catwho
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#195 Nov 25 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I know you have Rag, Saevel, I just wanted to see somebody get indignant and defensive over a weapon they wouldn't even take out of the box at this point.

Catwho almost raises a point, but a weapon from an oft-spammed Abyssea KI NM does not equate in severity of obtainment to a weapon from one of the hardest mobs in the whole game, and the suggestions was that somebody start with this weapon?

Relic owners being out-of-touch with accessibility? What else is new. Keep acting like Hoarfrost just takes showing up to a few runs and doesn't require competence to even be allowed (unless you're the 20.2% hit rate NIN in yesterday's Ig run...)
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#196 Nov 25 2012 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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ITT: Raelix acts like Ig-Alima is some extremely difficult top-tier mob that only the elite uber guys have any business fighting
#197 Nov 25 2012 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Versus doing what... One? Two? Maybe three Dynamis tops to buy a Gram? Even just doing the early runs to have more than three stones breaks that threshold of worth as a sidegrade.

Go ahead. Lower your standards to let the guy get a Hoarfrost just so you can turn your back on him the moment you wanna do NNI or Legion.
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#198 Nov 26 2012 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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I have no idea what you're talking about with HQ Nyzul or Legion, but I'm pretty sure none of it refuted my point.

Simply put, free > 800k, and Hoarfrost is an extremely easy drop off Iggy along with the other spiffy things he probably-won't-but-potentially-could drop. What do you think most people would rather go for?
#199 Nov 26 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
ITT: Raelix acts like Ig-Alima is some extremely difficult top-tier mob that only the elite uber guys have any business fighting


Only thing I can think of is Rae confused Ig'Alima with Bot Rex. PUG's used to constantly spam Ig, especially during the initial rush when people wanted their Emps to 99.

Funny thing is I actually used Hoarfrost while I was building my Rag, got it off an Ig run and it was better then what I had at the time. once I finished Rag to 90+ the Hoarfrost went into my Moghouse as a pretty sword for a mannequin.

As long as someone's working towards a better weapon then there is no shame in using one. They'll pick it up naturally from doing Voidwatch, its not exactly Toci's here.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#200 Nov 26 2012 at 5:13 AM Rating: Default
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Guys.. i have to say this, for the people making an autobiography in a single post, please,
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7600/forumskirtmsgpl9og2rl3.jpg

But I will say is that my new Elitist LS ive joined, they all agree on this for the Top DDs
1. WAR, DRK, and SAM around the same/tied
#4 DRG
#5 MNK


I personally am a Monk, and i have yet to get fully merited, the best godlike gear possible at 99,
so i can't test myself but i will come back later to refute this order if i actually out damage any of the 4 listed above monk

Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:18am by AlexFitz

Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:19am by AlexFitz
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#201 Nov 26 2012 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
AlexFitz wrote:
Guys.. i have to say this, for the people making an autobiography in a single post, please,
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7600/forumskirtmsgpl9og2rl3.jpg

But I will say is that my new Elitist LS ive joined, they all agree on this for the Top DDs
1. WAR, DRK, and SAM around the same/tied
#4 DRG
#5 MNK


I personally am a Monk, and i have yet to get fully merited, the best godlike gear possible at 99,
so i can't test myself but i will come back later to refute this order if i actually out damage any of the 4 listed above monk

Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:18am by AlexFitz

Edited, Nov 26th 2012 6:19am by AlexFitz


For the first comment, that's personal preference. I am notorious for typing out very long, involved responses to posts, primarily because I want to make sure that I get my point across as thoroughly as possible. Sticking to a short, concise sentence or paragraph won't necessarily do that.

As for the DD line-up, that's situational at best. There are several, several different factors you have to account for, such as mob type, weapons/equipment, buffs, outside support, and even just how aggressive they are. If you're looking at an optimal situation for all those factors (mob doesn't have any weird damage resistances, weapons/equipment are all top caliber, same buffs, support, etc) then I'd say, at present, a Drk should come out ahead, but I'd put Dragoon as being on par with everyone else in that #1 slot. Monk, however, falls short primarily due to it not being a two-handed job, and partially suffers from the same issues that plague single-handed/dual wielding jobs from being competitive in "end game" fights anymore (by "end game" I mean Legion more than anything).
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