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Best DD Job now?Follow

#52 Apr 10 2012 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
You know guys, a bard can TOTALLY be one of the top damage dealers.

Totally and seriously. Smiley: nod

Pay no attention to the WAR I use as my DD job, It's just there for pretend. My bard has 5/5 Extentorator and knows how to use it!


Well, the saying does go "the BRD always wins the parse". I don't think they were talking about Twashbards though...
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#53 Apr 10 2012 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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If you wanna talk force multipliers, BRD wins handily over COR.after the Save TP nerf. Was sketchy before.
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#54 Apr 10 2012 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pelamir wrote:
I apologize if I sounds like one of the PUPs who sends "macro'd essays" about the job at people, but I think that type of reaction shouldn't seem unexpected when so many people are utterly clueless about the job in the first place--many people have flat out told me "I know nothing about PUP." When PUPs explain things about the job, we don't have ill intent and we're not trying to annoy you--we're just trying to clear up the misconceptions about us.


Bingo.
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#55 Apr 10 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Can't we get a bookmarked sticky called Best Troll Ever, where these OPs that continually start threads about Best DD Ever are auto-added?

We all already know the best DD ever is No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?
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#56 Apr 12 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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#57 Apr 13 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to weigh in on pup here, since pup was my main for a very long time at 75, and I participated in end game on pup. These are my opinions.

First off, pup is hideously expensive, and the top end attachments are required if you want to put out competitive damage. You don't need all of them, but you do need some of them, and few people run Targeting the Captain, which is where those attachments drop. In particular you need Turbo Charger as the sharpshot puppet builds it's tp through melee hits.

Second, pup used to be a fantastic solo with a heavy evasion build and the whm puppet. I used to pick fights with things people insisted I couldn't take just to do it, win or lose. Elmerthepointy has some great videos of soloing stuff back at 75. However, pup soloing is pretty much dead for three reasons. First, nothing of note can be evasion/blink tanked anymore. Second, everything puts out massive AoE these days, which kills your whm puppet. And thirdly, MOST IMPORTANTLY, nothing worth fighting is worth soloing anymore, so who cares? Triggers killed soloing.

Next, pup used to be among the best DD. Yes, even when people were war, then sam, then war again, then this that and the other thing, pup was a great DD as long as you were looking for flat damage over time. pup has always been a useless job in a zerg. Utterly useless. It is still a useless job in a zerg.

Moving on, pup hate control has always been the best in the game, and will always be the best in the game. Just vent hate onto a puppet, let it die, deus ex, ???, profit. No job will ever touch that. pup hate control is actually overpowered, in my opinion.

I don't have a parser, as I <gasp> don't use Windower, but pup damage just feels flat compared to other jobs these days. In particular, OAT drk, OAT drg, SuperHagunShohaSpamurai, all seem to perform far better with almost no work or expense by comparison. Armor is free, the weapons are free and the sam weapon is easy, you don't need to cap multiple puppet skills, and you don't have to worry about pets dying to AoE on drk and sam.

pup is an amazingly fun job, and very active. But if you want to spend a fortune and be overpowered make an empy cor, they have a very easy empy to make (by comparison). If you want an easy ride you can make a OAT drk, OAT drg, or superhagun sam. If you want the DD job that everyone wants to invite, you make a Ukon Warrior.

Once again, all of this is my opinion.
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#58 Apr 16 2012 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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gladius2011 wrote:
Well I havent played since 2007, and when I played I was a hard hitting RNG and I would always compete with BLM to see who could get the most dmage off chains and bursts. But alas, now I have no idea what a few of these new jobs can even do?


RNG nerf was in 2006 not 2007.

Edited, Apr 16th 2012 9:43pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#59 Apr 16 2012 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
gladius2011 wrote:
Well I havent played since 2007, and when I played I was a hard hitting RNG and I would always compete with BLM to see who could get the most dmage off chains and bursts. But alas, now I have no idea what a few of these new jobs can even do?
RNG nerf was in 2006 not 2007.
2005
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#60 Apr 17 2012 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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These arguments get so old.

If you want to say something one way or another, post your spreadsheet for mnk vs pup master only.

Then you will see the different the auto needs to make up for.
If you don't compare the potential DD of the master's you have not basis to start comparison. Both sides of that argument are being lazy and trying to dump the burden of proof on the other. You are both wrong until someone does the dirty work and someone else checks it.

Same thing happens w/ bst dd arguments.
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#61 Apr 17 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Thydonon officially gets the distinction of being the first person to talk about PUP in bulk text where I actually bothered to read the entire thing through, since he proved quickly on that he was attempting his best to be objective instead of just starting a long-winded ramble about how misunderstood the job is. The fact that it all seems reasonable and agreeable is icing on the cake. Kudos to you, sir. Will be looking for more good posts like that around here.
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#63 Apr 17 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh, your post is full of words, rather than numbers.

Yes, PUP can use V.Smite. So can MNK. Which one deals more damage per WS? Which one fires off a WS more often? Which one does more damage over time?

I mean, Hexa Strike was always an incredibly powerful weaponskill, as an example, but saying "White Mage can use Hexa Strike and make Light" isn't really an argument that is going to make people start inviting WHM as main-DDs.

Basically, every job has some silly powerful combos it can make. Unless you take into account how often it makes them, and how the total damage over the course of some period of time compares to it's competition, it's meaningless.

I'm not saying PUP is good or bad, but if you really wanna discuss it, some numbers are necessary. 'Sometimes I do a big skillchain' does not an amazing DD make. You have to compare how much damage it does over a period of time with how much damage another DD does in an equal period of time.
#65 Apr 17 2012 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
[...]make up for B+ skill instead of A+ and a few JA tools MNK has, you're sadly mistaken.

Because obviously Kick Attacks and 2 tiers of martial arts over Puppetmaster counts for nothing.

Zelduh wrote:
Tossing numbers around is pointless

So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers? Maybe we should go with AF color? Seriously...
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#66 Apr 18 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
lolwat. Someone was saying other DDs are DDs because they can make self-skillchains or something, when PUP can easily do it as well. But a lot of PUP's damage comes from good DoT, including the puppet. DON'T FORGET THE FREAKING PUPPET. IT EXISTS. IT DOES DAMAGE. A LOT.
Tossing numbers around is pointless, if you have half a brain and know how PUP works at all it's not hard to figure out how PUP can put out good damage. Use your head. PUP has plenty at its disposal to give it an edge over MNK. If you don't think an automaton can make up for B+ skill instead of A+ and a few JA tools MNK has, you're sadly mistaken.


A good parser will take into account the uniquely named puppet's damage, at which point it can be added to the player's damage. Same thing goes for wyverns. (Gets a little trickier with BSTs if they're all using the same pet.)

So the numbers aren't cheating you...
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#67 Apr 18 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers?


Numbers are finicky. They are a good baseline, saying this is what I can expect, this is what I should aim for. But that is really where hard numbers stop being effective, great on paper not so much in practice.

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.
- A PUP will generally not ever have to worry about this situation. It will not pull hate like a MNK and therefore will have more or less a standard DPS rate throughout most engagements.

What happens when/if the Auto dies, you can bring it back at half health, but it loses all its TP, and thus its damage potential resets.
- Will the next AoE kill it. Will you take time to heal it lowering your DPS by using other actions such as oils.

What if someone in the backline pulls hate, while the MNK and PUP follow the mob or wait for it to return the Auto can still nuke or RA the mob without losing DPS.

So many variables interrupt numbers. Numbers are good, but only to a certain point. Optimal rarely ever happens.


Now personally I think this argument is silly, PUP is a good DD, a strong DD, but it is not the strongest nor the best, it is good, definitely high ranking secondary DD option.
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#68 Apr 18 2012 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you know a good PUP, let them PUP when the situation is appropriate. The problem is with pickups; most PUPs are terrible, so people don't want to risk inviting them to anything they're not necessary for. This isn't anything against the job, it's just the state of the game/playerbase.

I love BLU, but I wouldn't invite a pickup BLU because 95% of them are pants-on-head retarded and I think I will explode the next time I see a BLU fulltiming Teal body. Same situation with PUP (but with different terrible gear choices).
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#69 Apr 18 2012 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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Can this thread move on or just die already? This is going in circles because of one person's hardon for a job well established so far as an overcomplicated underperformer.
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#70 Apr 18 2012 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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But then how will I +1?

Priorities, man!
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Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Human (?) females look ugly.
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#71 Apr 18 2012 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers?
...


Stopped reading at popping defender.
#72 Apr 18 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.


lolwut? MNK does the most dmg when the monster is turned on him due to added dmg from counters (not iron giants or the likes ofc). Defender is never, ever used by good MNKs, ever.
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#73 Apr 18 2012 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Last I checked, march/haste/most COR buffs don't impact the automaton.

It's like comparing BLM to WAR. There are a lot of cases in which BLM is superior. It has high-utility, self-sufficiency, doesn't require a lot of buffs, has crowd control, scales well on high-level content.

Yet, if you want raw damage, you can buff the WAR to 80% haste, throw some COR rolls on it for extra oomph, and get some crazy numbers.

You can't do the same for BLM. You can't do the same for PUP, since only the master can be buffed in such a way, and the master is just a second-rate monk.
#74 Apr 18 2012 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers?

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.

The monk pops berserk and counterstance, and actually gain even more DPS. And since they are such a strong DD job in the first place, they really should be in that situation (tanking) without even trying.

Counterstance removes all DEF that comes from the armor you wear. The only DEF that stays in the VIT-based one (at 1 DEF per 2 VIT).

Berserk or Defender still have the full +/-25% attack, but there's very little DEF left to impact. There's not much to lose from going from 30 DEF to 22 DEF (Mobs will be pDIF capped in both case, so there's no difference in damage taken, but a very noticeable difference in your damage dealt, unless you were ATK capped in the first place, in which case you can just put 'zerk up for the lolz, because the mob you're fighting is meaningless.)

All this is clearly explained on the wiki -- you don't even need to play monk seriously to know that.
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#75 Apr 18 2012 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have a screenshot of 999+ Attack and 6 Defense on DRK/MNK in Abyssea after absorbing zerk from a bomb on top of Counterstance and Last Resort. Good times.
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#76 Apr 18 2012 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
I have a screenshot of 999+ Attack and 6 Defense on DRK/MNK in Abyssea after absorbing zerk from a bomb on top of Counterstance and Last Resort. Good times.

Can we see? :D
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