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Best DD Job now?Follow

#52 Apr 10 2012 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
You know guys, a bard can TOTALLY be one of the top damage dealers.

Totally and seriously. Smiley: nod

Pay no attention to the WAR I use as my DD job, It's just there for pretend. My bard has 5/5 Extentorator and knows how to use it!


Well, the saying does go "the BRD always wins the parse". I don't think they were talking about Twashbards though...
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#53 Apr 10 2012 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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If you wanna talk force multipliers, BRD wins handily over COR.after the Save TP nerf. Was sketchy before.
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#54 Apr 10 2012 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pelamir wrote:
I apologize if I sounds like one of the PUPs who sends "macro'd essays" about the job at people, but I think that type of reaction shouldn't seem unexpected when so many people are utterly clueless about the job in the first place--many people have flat out told me "I know nothing about PUP." When PUPs explain things about the job, we don't have ill intent and we're not trying to annoy you--we're just trying to clear up the misconceptions about us.


Bingo.
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#55 Apr 10 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Can't we get a bookmarked sticky called Best Troll Ever, where these OPs that continually start threads about Best DD Ever are auto-added?

We all already know the best DD ever is No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?
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#56 Apr 12 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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#57 Apr 13 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to weigh in on pup here, since pup was my main for a very long time at 75, and I participated in end game on pup. These are my opinions.

First off, pup is hideously expensive, and the top end attachments are required if you want to put out competitive damage. You don't need all of them, but you do need some of them, and few people run Targeting the Captain, which is where those attachments drop. In particular you need Turbo Charger as the sharpshot puppet builds it's tp through melee hits.

Second, pup used to be a fantastic solo with a heavy evasion build and the whm puppet. I used to pick fights with things people insisted I couldn't take just to do it, win or lose. Elmerthepointy has some great videos of soloing stuff back at 75. However, pup soloing is pretty much dead for three reasons. First, nothing of note can be evasion/blink tanked anymore. Second, everything puts out massive AoE these days, which kills your whm puppet. And thirdly, MOST IMPORTANTLY, nothing worth fighting is worth soloing anymore, so who cares? Triggers killed soloing.

Next, pup used to be among the best DD. Yes, even when people were war, then sam, then war again, then this that and the other thing, pup was a great DD as long as you were looking for flat damage over time. pup has always been a useless job in a zerg. Utterly useless. It is still a useless job in a zerg.

Moving on, pup hate control has always been the best in the game, and will always be the best in the game. Just vent hate onto a puppet, let it die, deus ex, ???, profit. No job will ever touch that. pup hate control is actually overpowered, in my opinion.

I don't have a parser, as I <gasp> don't use Windower, but pup damage just feels flat compared to other jobs these days. In particular, OAT drk, OAT drg, SuperHagunShohaSpamurai, all seem to perform far better with almost no work or expense by comparison. Armor is free, the weapons are free and the sam weapon is easy, you don't need to cap multiple puppet skills, and you don't have to worry about pets dying to AoE on drk and sam.

pup is an amazingly fun job, and very active. But if you want to spend a fortune and be overpowered make an empy cor, they have a very easy empy to make (by comparison). If you want an easy ride you can make a OAT drk, OAT drg, or superhagun sam. If you want the DD job that everyone wants to invite, you make a Ukon Warrior.

Once again, all of this is my opinion.
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#58 Apr 16 2012 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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gladius2011 wrote:
Well I havent played since 2007, and when I played I was a hard hitting RNG and I would always compete with BLM to see who could get the most dmage off chains and bursts. But alas, now I have no idea what a few of these new jobs can even do?


RNG nerf was in 2006 not 2007.

Edited, Apr 16th 2012 9:43pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#59 Apr 16 2012 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
gladius2011 wrote:
Well I havent played since 2007, and when I played I was a hard hitting RNG and I would always compete with BLM to see who could get the most dmage off chains and bursts. But alas, now I have no idea what a few of these new jobs can even do?
RNG nerf was in 2006 not 2007.
2005
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#60 Apr 17 2012 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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These arguments get so old.

If you want to say something one way or another, post your spreadsheet for mnk vs pup master only.

Then you will see the different the auto needs to make up for.
If you don't compare the potential DD of the master's you have not basis to start comparison. Both sides of that argument are being lazy and trying to dump the burden of proof on the other. You are both wrong until someone does the dirty work and someone else checks it.

Same thing happens w/ bst dd arguments.
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#61 Apr 17 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Thydonon officially gets the distinction of being the first person to talk about PUP in bulk text where I actually bothered to read the entire thing through, since he proved quickly on that he was attempting his best to be objective instead of just starting a long-winded ramble about how misunderstood the job is. The fact that it all seems reasonable and agreeable is icing on the cake. Kudos to you, sir. Will be looking for more good posts like that around here.
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#63 Apr 17 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh, your post is full of words, rather than numbers.

Yes, PUP can use V.Smite. So can MNK. Which one deals more damage per WS? Which one fires off a WS more often? Which one does more damage over time?

I mean, Hexa Strike was always an incredibly powerful weaponskill, as an example, but saying "White Mage can use Hexa Strike and make Light" isn't really an argument that is going to make people start inviting WHM as main-DDs.

Basically, every job has some silly powerful combos it can make. Unless you take into account how often it makes them, and how the total damage over the course of some period of time compares to it's competition, it's meaningless.

I'm not saying PUP is good or bad, but if you really wanna discuss it, some numbers are necessary. 'Sometimes I do a big skillchain' does not an amazing DD make. You have to compare how much damage it does over a period of time with how much damage another DD does in an equal period of time.
#65 Apr 17 2012 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
[...]make up for B+ skill instead of A+ and a few JA tools MNK has, you're sadly mistaken.

Because obviously Kick Attacks and 2 tiers of martial arts over Puppetmaster counts for nothing.

Zelduh wrote:
Tossing numbers around is pointless

So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers? Maybe we should go with AF color? Seriously...
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#66 Apr 18 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
lolwat. Someone was saying other DDs are DDs because they can make self-skillchains or something, when PUP can easily do it as well. But a lot of PUP's damage comes from good DoT, including the puppet. DON'T FORGET THE FREAKING PUPPET. IT EXISTS. IT DOES DAMAGE. A LOT.
Tossing numbers around is pointless, if you have half a brain and know how PUP works at all it's not hard to figure out how PUP can put out good damage. Use your head. PUP has plenty at its disposal to give it an edge over MNK. If you don't think an automaton can make up for B+ skill instead of A+ and a few JA tools MNK has, you're sadly mistaken.


A good parser will take into account the uniquely named puppet's damage, at which point it can be added to the player's damage. Same thing goes for wyverns. (Gets a little trickier with BSTs if they're all using the same pet.)

So the numbers aren't cheating you...
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#67 Apr 18 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers?


Numbers are finicky. They are a good baseline, saying this is what I can expect, this is what I should aim for. But that is really where hard numbers stop being effective, great on paper not so much in practice.

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.
- A PUP will generally not ever have to worry about this situation. It will not pull hate like a MNK and therefore will have more or less a standard DPS rate throughout most engagements.

What happens when/if the Auto dies, you can bring it back at half health, but it loses all its TP, and thus its damage potential resets.
- Will the next AoE kill it. Will you take time to heal it lowering your DPS by using other actions such as oils.

What if someone in the backline pulls hate, while the MNK and PUP follow the mob or wait for it to return the Auto can still nuke or RA the mob without losing DPS.

So many variables interrupt numbers. Numbers are good, but only to a certain point. Optimal rarely ever happens.


Now personally I think this argument is silly, PUP is a good DD, a strong DD, but it is not the strongest nor the best, it is good, definitely high ranking secondary DD option.
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#68 Apr 18 2012 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you know a good PUP, let them PUP when the situation is appropriate. The problem is with pickups; most PUPs are terrible, so people don't want to risk inviting them to anything they're not necessary for. This isn't anything against the job, it's just the state of the game/playerbase.

I love BLU, but I wouldn't invite a pickup BLU because 95% of them are pants-on-head retarded and I think I will explode the next time I see a BLU fulltiming Teal body. Same situation with PUP (but with different terrible gear choices).
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#69 Apr 18 2012 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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Can this thread move on or just die already? This is going in circles because of one person's hardon for a job well established so far as an overcomplicated underperformer.
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#70 Apr 18 2012 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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But then how will I +1?

Priorities, man!
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#71 Apr 18 2012 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers?
...


Stopped reading at popping defender.
#72 Apr 18 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.


lolwut? MNK does the most dmg when the monster is turned on him due to added dmg from counters (not iron giants or the likes ofc). Defender is never, ever used by good MNKs, ever.
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#73 Apr 18 2012 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Last I checked, march/haste/most COR buffs don't impact the automaton.

It's like comparing BLM to WAR. There are a lot of cases in which BLM is superior. It has high-utility, self-sufficiency, doesn't require a lot of buffs, has crowd control, scales well on high-level content.

Yet, if you want raw damage, you can buff the WAR to 80% haste, throw some COR rolls on it for extra oomph, and get some crazy numbers.

You can't do the same for BLM. You can't do the same for PUP, since only the master can be buffed in such a way, and the master is just a second-rate monk.
#74 Apr 18 2012 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
So when arguing about top damage dealer (By which people usually mean the strongest, or highest damage dealt over time), we should not use numbers?

What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.

The monk pops berserk and counterstance, and actually gain even more DPS. And since they are such a strong DD job in the first place, they really should be in that situation (tanking) without even trying.

Counterstance removes all DEF that comes from the armor you wear. The only DEF that stays in the VIT-based one (at 1 DEF per 2 VIT).

Berserk or Defender still have the full +/-25% attack, but there's very little DEF left to impact. There's not much to lose from going from 30 DEF to 22 DEF (Mobs will be pDIF capped in both case, so there's no difference in damage taken, but a very noticeable difference in your damage dealt, unless you were ATK capped in the first place, in which case you can just put 'zerk up for the lolz, because the mob you're fighting is meaningless.)

All this is clearly explained on the wiki -- you don't even need to play monk seriously to know that.
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#75 Apr 18 2012 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have a screenshot of 999+ Attack and 6 Defense on DRK/MNK in Abyssea after absorbing zerk from a bomb on top of Counterstance and Last Resort. Good times.
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#76 Apr 18 2012 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
I have a screenshot of 999+ Attack and 6 Defense on DRK/MNK in Abyssea after absorbing zerk from a bomb on top of Counterstance and Last Resort. Good times.

Can we see? :D
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#77 Apr 18 2012 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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**** people... so much stupidity from both sides... Laxedrane lit the Jintesignal, so let me see if I can't dumb this **** down for the whole lot of you that can't comprehend what Anza and co. have already covered. Prepare for a massive wall of text because I haven't posted in a while and I get backlogged if I don't post frequently (and you guys know how big my posts tend to be when I'm posting frequently.... Smiley: lol)

Firstly, though. Zelduh. Do us (pups) all a favor, and shut the **** up. Please. You don't seem to have any real understanding of anything you're talking about, you're just parroting **** which is, in my eyes, absolutely no better than the retarded full AF/eva gear campaign pup/dncs from pre-abyssea. I'm revoking your "Pup Advocacy" rights for the foreseeable future, until you sit down and take the time to actually read, learn, and comprehend what it is you're trying to defend. If you don't do that, you'll just make it worse for the rest of us.

Zelduh wrote:
lolwat. Someone was saying other DDs are DDs because they can make self-skillchains or something, when PUP can easily do it as well. But a lot of PUP's damage comes from good DoT, including the puppet. DON'T FORGET THE FREAKING PUPPET. IT EXISTS. IT DOES DAMAGE. A LOT.
Tossing numbers around is pointless, if you have half a brain and know how PUP works at all it's not hard to figure out how PUP can put out good damage. Use your head. PUP has plenty at its disposal to give it an edge over MNK. If you don't think an automaton can make up for B+ skill instead of A+ and a few JA tools MNK has, you're sadly mistaken.


This is why your rights are revoked. Tossing numbers is only pointless if the people tossing them don't understand them, or how to properly toss them. Also, you know as well as I do that most players don't have half a brain, and this goes doubly for pup, given the type of people the job attracts. Between an equally geared, equally intelligent pup and mnk, the mnk will almost always win. It has nothing to do with skill rank difference or available tools. The reason is that in terms of damage potential, mnk's potential in a given situation is simply about 100x easier to achieve, and is higher over all, so even when the pup has a lead in terms of both gear and intelligence, the mnk can still keep or outpace them. The difference has to be significant for the pup to win. I know this from personal experience. Mnk is a pure DD. Pup is not. Pure DDs will always win in terms of "most damage out put" because damage output is all a pure DD is **** good at. Pup is a real DD, the same as a mnk, but it is not a pure DD, and you need to stop fooling yourself into thinking it is.

Raelix wrote:
It's an average DD until the puppet gets killed by AoE, then it's a supergimp MNK while they chew on JA delay or have to move out of range trying to get it back up.

"Has access to great DD tools" does not mean it can apply them steadily and readily for that matter. Puppets are still rock-stupid. If you're talking about PUPs with Vereth, they'd do more damage by switching to MNK main.

PUP is good for free powerful nukes, ranged damage on enemies with powerful but <10' AoEs, or making old content laughably easy to solo with Valoredge and cannibal blade. You're assuming that because PUP is some godlike machine of death in one area, that it can do all these things better than jobs dedicated to such.

A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ass).
A real DD will outdamage any puppet and the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.

PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.

You're confusing PUPs POTENTIAL, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.


Raelix, I realize that you're responding to Zelduh here, but you're just as **** stupid (in this post. I normally consider you of being fairly intelligent), because you're making it absolutely clear that you have no idea what the **** you're talking about. Smiley: dubious Let me break it down for you.

A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.

No. Absolutely wrong. Between an equally geared blm and pup the pup will always hit harder on a single target nuke, because pup has soooo much more MAB available. If the two are equally geared, even with full thunder potency merits, the pup will still hit harder with Thunder V. It's a lot closer now than it was at 75, mind you, and if the two are totally decked out, the blm may be able to pull ahead (I don't know the numbers for how the final ToM thunder staff compares off the top of my head). That said, in terms of totally damage, the blm will win, IF HATE IS A NON ISSUE, but that has nothing to do with the puppet's AI, and everything to do with the relative RATE of damage. Pup has always been the hardest HITTING nuker, but at the same time, it is also the slowest by a wiiiiiide margin, because the pet gets no native fast cast, and to max out damage, one can't use the one fast cast attachment we get. A FAST nuking pup can drop triple ice Thunder Vs every 20-30 seconds (depending on over all maneuver gear and overload rate), but no faster, if they want full damage. However, if hate is a major issue, pup's ability to continuously pump out those 20-30 seconds nukes without ever needing to stop due to hate will make them the winner in terms of damage by a wide margin. Of course, this is purely damage, and doesn't take into account AoE situations, because it's obvious pup is absolutely useless for those. Additionally, utility spells are not necessarily an issue, because pup/sch is a very viable option in a lot of situations, especially ones where melee isn't advised, and we do get a **** of decent mage gear. Can we sleepga II? no. Can we handle popping off a sleep/ga with decent accuracy for an add or two? no problem.

A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.

The only reason a rng will outdamage sharpshot is because sharpshot is a pet and has its damaged reduced by that fact. Sharpshot's AI is not stupid in the least. A well geared pup will have sharpshot pumping out so much damage that it is always in danger of pulling hate, and it's the one frame that hate is always an issue with. You make it pretty clear that you don't realize that the ranged puppet should NOT be standing at range. If the pup using it has their rng puppet standing back at range the entire fight, they're **** stupid. Yes, its ranged attacks are slow (The changes to drum magazine helped with this, a lot), but the strength of it is that it functions exactly like a pre-rng nerf rng. It melees for TP, and it's not hard at all to get its accuracy up to decent levels. Sharpshot, and valoredge as well, have two serious advantages over players. level correction. i.e. they more or less ignore it, even without the attachments. Additionally, they can fight while moving, and almost never have the "the target is out of range" issue. This is why, back before kirin was 30secondzerged (at 75) a well geared pup's Valoredge would consistently be the top DD on a kited kirin fight. Also, for the record, and you should **** realize, KKK does not necessarily denote an uber pup. Highly likely? yes. Absolutely? **** no.

A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ass).

A real whm can out heal a full party of rdms and schs. Real whm is **** OP. That said, with the major improvement to the puppet casting AI, and combined with /sch or /whm, a pup can easily keep pace with, and probably out heal, a rdm or a sch playing healer. I say probably because none of us actually care enough to do it, and it does actually take a good bit more concentration on the pup's part than it would for the rdm or sch. Pup healing is sort of like blu healing. We've always been decent at it (blu was better, before. Now we're about even), we just refuse to let anyone actually know that.

A real DD will outdamage any puppet and the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.

Absolutely false anywhere except pure R/M/E user heavy buff zergs, and even then, if the pup has KKK, isn't retarded, and knows how to play the job to its strengths in that given situation, they're very competitive. The only reason pup falls behind in high end zergs is because of maneuvers causing JA lag. Pup is totally capable of getting 26% gear haste, on top of martial arts boosts, and the pet DOES have haste available and useable. The higher the haste, the worse the pup will perform. The only reason you see people on BG hating on pup is because in regards to DDs, they're always talking about nigh-haste cap level zergs and almost nothing else. At low-moderate haste levels, JA lag is almost a non-issue, and a competent pup is absolutely capable of keeping pace with, or out doing, any other equally geared DD. Also, I'm just going to completely ignore the stupid sitting on TP **** because that's silly and a blatant exaggeration based out of ignorance. Puppets only sit on TP with a specific attachment set (that almost no one uses outside of sometimes while solo) and even then won't hold it to 300. Yes, the puppet will hold TP occasionally, but they average WSing around ~120TP, and they don't TP at a snail's pace.

PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.
You're confusing PUPs [b]POTENTIAL
, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.[/b]

Pup's greatest failing has never been the AI. It was a major issue for the mage pets for a long time, but it's NEVER been the biggest issue. Pup's biggest issue has been, and always will be, the combined effect of it drawing in the "I wanna be a unique snowflake!" players and the fact that the job requires a much higher level of dedication and practice to play well than said players are ever willing to put forth. There's no such thing as an average pup. 90% of them suck horribly. The other 10%, however, that actually know how to play the job, are some of the best players in the game, both when they're on pup, and when they're on other jobs, because the practice and dedication required to play pup well carries over to other jobs. "Pup sucks because the people who play it suck" is not a valid argument, and it's the only one you can really make in any situation that isn't high haste zerging, which will never be pup's forte, and any half-intelligent pup knows that. The problem is that all the other DDs don't realize that there's a LOT more to being a DD than high haste zergs. No, Abyssea and VW haven't helped that at all, and have effectively forced that as the only "real" endgame content for the time being, but you know for a fact that with tanaka in charge, there's no way in **** that will stay the status quo now that the 99 cap has bee hit. Pup has always been at its strongest in events where it's variability is a huge asset, like Dynamis, Limbus, or Salvage, not zerg events like Einherjar/VW.

How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. **** how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game Smiley: laugh

Raelix wrote:
The PUP apologists aren't making the job any more relevant to the intent of the thread. I just made the assumption the puppet was waiting for the master every time because their WS rates always seemed a near match (this may also be because this was single digit counts per fight compared to the tens or twenties of WS of real DD). The Sharpshot's accuracy was horrendous too, like 65-70% even just on the tier 2 Zilart we were doing (this wasn't the KKK PUP btw).

And my AoE reference was mostly because you can't use Fanatics/Fools on a puppet, which is a major sticking point in VWNM.

But I get it. PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM... and none of the other DDs are getting haste or marches or are even above decent. I think I covered most of what was said.

That's a lot of 'ifs' and work to be average. Enough effort to put any other DD into such a top tier to make said PUP look pathetic. Please stop this tirade.

If I were to list the jobs not eligible for this thread, I would likely list PUP first, even after considering BST, DNC, maybe THF and NIN, and all before even getting into the vagueness of melee vs. ranged vs. magic DDs or negotiating inside or outside of Abyssea.

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that PUP is never the top DD in any situation. PUP does a lot of things pretty good, but bringing it up in a 'Best DD' thread was stupid from the beginning.

Edited, Apr 10th 2012 5:55am by Raelix


"Best DD Job" is the topic. "Best DD job in Absolute perfect conditions in a single type of fight" is not. Pup is not the best DD job in high-haste zerg fights, or fights where you have to rely on fools/fanatics, and no one worth listening too would every say that it is. However, it is not even close to being the worst in those situations, either (and I'm not talking about non melee jobs, I mean among all melee DDs). It doesn't suck. It's not the "absolute most damage output" job, but it is arguably the "most flexible and great at putting up solid DD numbers in the widest range of situations" job, though it competes pretty heavily with blu for that, so it's hard to say which one really takes it. Pup is an above average DD in any situation that isn't a competition between R/M/E mnks/wars/sams with the absolute best gear and capped haste, and even then, it's not even remotely close to the worst. Besides, equally geared, an intelligent pup can usually DD circles around thf, dnc, or bst. Especially bst. The only reason people take thfs and dncs over pups is because those two are relatively easier to play to the same level of ability, and offer TH/Haste samba respectively. Bsts, I love you, but you know full well you can't keep up most of the time. If the bst is using a high DD pet, they can keep up, but in a situation where the pet is going to get wasted often, a pup without their pet will manhandle a bst without their pet. Bst pets are just sturdier. Everything's situational, though.

One of pup's biggest strengths is that, if you ignore fools/fanatics situations, because those are just stupid to begin with (seriously, if you need to rely on temps, the fight is poorly designed, and you can't blame a player for that), pup is one of the top "survivor" DDs. Wars, Drks, Sams, Drgs, Rngs, Cors, Blms.... if they take hate, the only reason they can survive long term is due to cure spams from a whm, and even then it often requires having a good PDT/MDT/DT set to swap into, which can severely cut their damage output. Not uncommon that they die. You know who has the worst parse results in any fight that's not over in under 2 minutes? The DD who dies the most. Pup's most obvious strength is the ability to put out a good amount of damage with out ever pulling hate, but aside from that, they're tied with dnc for the 2nd highest natural evasion in the game, before shadows come into play, since both have B Eva skill and Eva Bonus IV. Nin's A- skill nets less natural evasion than the difference between it and dnc/pup and the eva they get from traits. Technically, dnc is #2 and pup is #3 since dnc has B+ skill, but the 6 skill difference is negligible at best. For those who don't know/can't remember/are too lazy to check, the caps are 417 (99nin), 404 (99dnc) and 398 (99pup), nin having a 13 skill lead on dnc, and a 19 skill lead on pup, but both pup and dnc having +60 eva from traits. 60 > 19.

Aliekber wrote:
catwho wrote:
You know guys, a bard can TOTALLY be one of the top damage dealers.

Totally and seriously. Smiley: nod

Pay no attention to the WAR I use as my DD job, It's just there for pretend. My bard has 5/5 Extentorator and knows how to use it!


Well, the saying does go "the BRD always wins the parse". I don't think they were talking about Twashbards though...


Just sayin', brd can be a pretty vicious DD when it wants to be. They've got the gear to pull it off. I always loved watching my brd friend melee solo **** like Kreutzet, Cactrot Rapido,or Ovni Smiley: lol **** LOVE YOU, BRUDAWG![/sm]

Anza wrote:
Pelamir wrote:
I apologize if I sounds like one of the PUPs who sends "macro'd essays" about the job at people, but I think that type of reaction shouldn't seem unexpected when so many people are utterly clueless about the job in the first place--many people have flat out told me "I know nothing about PUP." When PUPs explain things about the job, we don't have ill intent and we're not trying to annoy you--we're just trying to clear up the misconceptions about us.


Bingo.


Pretty much. People don't understand **** so they think it sucks because someone else who didn't understand it told them it sucks. This spread, and became stuck, and is something pup will never live down. However, I should also point out that a lot of us older pups do the "pup doesn't suck god dammit" speeches almost entirely out of reflex at this point. I've been playing pup since 2006, and I've been giving those speeches since 2006. Doing something for 6 years sort is sort of habit forming...

Raelix wrote:
Can this thread move on or just die already? This is going in circles because of one person's hardon for a job well established so far as an overcomplicated underperformer.

If you want it to die, you need to stop blatantly, and ignorantly, spouting off nonsense, and you also need to lose your holier-than-thou tone with the people trying to explain **** to you that aren't zelduh, and you need to lose it fast, because every one of them has demonstrated before that they have more than enough ability to completely destroy you in the numbers debate you're inciting, they're just being polite and civil. "It sucks because it sucks and no argument you make, no matter how well founded, will convinced me otherwise" is basically argumentum ad absurdum, though more specifically, it's more like "I don't care what you have to say, I'm right because I'm right even if I'm totally wrong." Pull your head out of your ass, please.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#78 Apr 19 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. @#%^, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game


I know a job that can do every last one of those things simultaneously without even skipping a beat and has used that fact to solo nearly everything in the game before SE made content either not soloable or not worth soloing. The community has laughed at that potential since 2004.

Not disagreeing with you, just saying being "versatile" is highly underrated in FFXI. It's always been about the absolute best-est best best at whatever content is currently "the thing to do". This is why you have a constant cycle of FoTM jobs.
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#79 Apr 19 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.


Why would I use Defender? So I can have 94 defense instead of 70? And Counterstance lowers our DPS? Defender yeah. Counterstance no.
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#80 Apr 19 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
What happens when/if the mob decides to turn to the MNK, and he/she must now use defender + counterstance. DPS drops off here.


Why would I use Defender? So I can have 94 defense instead of 70? And Counterstance lowers our DPS? Defender yeah. Counterstance no.


Hmm I think he was attempting to argue the "dead DD's deal no damage" line. A DD should never be using defender ... ever .... not even when their "tanking" .. in fact just forget the JA even exists. Survivability is an issue though, so possible lower damage when you macro in your "ohh **** gear?
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#81 Apr 19 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I love a good Jinte post, and yes I had the attention span for the whole thing, but this still irks me:
Lady Jinte wrote:
numbers debate

Okay, so where are the numbers? I lost my PUP vs. Zilart VW and many other parses when my RAID0 died.

Yes, I know PUP has mechanics to produce pretty numbers, be it with nukes or skillchains, but just like a Rhongomiant DRG can drop a 3k Jump when their Empy+2 and ODD procs at the same time it doesn't really matter because you've usually gimped your total output (I just showed on BG that Rhon's AM1 ODD doesn't outweigh using Camlann's to proc it without at least two magical haste sources) to reach such e-peen.

If PUP could self-SC, drop 4k+ nukes, and tank mobs with impunity all at once we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it doesn't do all these things at the same time. I know enough about PUP that when someone tries to tell me it's competitive with Post-Abyssea DD I can call bullsh*t unless they start putting numbers, parses, and facts up, just like any other job.

So while I made wide generalizations about PUP vs BLM, PUP vs RNG, PUP vs WHM, PUP vs DD, I thank you for taking the time to precisely affirm exactly what the **** I said beyond the specifics of the puppet having stronger single nukes but still losing overall. I'm being trite and objective because such things are as I know them to be, and still nobody as done anything but chide me while making no stipulations that what I stated was necessarily wrong.

This excuse of "X situation is bad for PUP" doesn't fly either, because it's turning into practically every situation at this rate, exactly as I stipulated earlier: Indeed PUP is competitive when other DDs are granted no buffs or brains at all!

Abyssea :"Bad for PUP!" Well yeah, it's bad for a lot of jobs and skews a lot of things. VoidWatch: "Zerg fights! Bad for PUP!" Not seeing how this makes PUP relevant to damage dealing since VW and other zerg fights are one of the core places where damage output actually matters.

So what then? Watch the puppet take 15 seconds to decide to cast a Tier 3 nuke to kill a mob that dies to any other DD in two melee rounds? Even in non-zerg situations (Solo, Original Nyzul, other assaults, ToAU missions, Add-on battles, pre- and post-rework Dynamis) I've seen nothing but PUP's lack of being able to focus their potential.

Other contention: You listed DRK amongst jobs that have almost no survivability, which is a major hangup of mine because that's more relative to how stupid most DRKs are that they can forget they have two stuns and the most powerful defensive spell in the game. We are kindred spirits that our favored job is bastardized by most of the people playing it. That's for another day though.

But what do I know? I've only been hanging around a shell full of these unique snowflake types the whole of my time on Diabolos and Siren, and though you do know me to be a person of high caliber analysis and tracking, I must just be pulling all of this out of my **** huh?

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 10:05am by Raelix
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#82 Apr 19 2012 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
I love a good Jinte post, and yes I had the attention span for the whole thing, but this still irks me:
Lady Jinte wrote:
numbers debate

Okay, so where are the numbers? I lost my PUP vs. Zilart VW and many other parses when my RAID0 died.

You've not posted any numbers at all, either, not even spitballs. I cba to throw numbers into a debate that hasn't used them yet, especially when they aren't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I agree 100% that pup is not, has not been, and probably will never be, the job with the highest damage potential. What I was saying was that you can't @#%^ing argue "Yea but the puppet dies so it doesn't matter" when discussing "pure damage output" unless you also account for the pup not pulling hate constantly and the survivability of the other DDs you're comparing it with, as well as their relative changes in damage output when they take hate, which is the most common and aggravating flaw people use when trying to argue that pup sucks, and you yourself did it.

Raelix wrote:
Yes, I know PUP has mechanics to produce pretty numbers, be it with nukes or skillchains, but just like a Rhongomiant DRG can drop a 3k Jump when their Empy+2 and ODD procs at the same time it doesn't really matter because you've usually gimped your total output (I just showed on BG that Rhon's AM1 ODD doesn't outweigh using Camlann's to proc it without at least two magical haste sources) to reach such e-peen.

If PUP could self-SC, drop 4k+ nukes, and tank mobs with impunity all at once we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it doesn't do all these things at the same time. I know enough about PUP that when someone tries to tell me it's competitive with Post-Abyssea DD I can call bullsh*t unless they start putting numbers, parses, and facts up, just like any other job.


I wasn't trying to argue the self SC bit at all. It's a handy toy but not something a good pup will rely heavily on. Also, I never tried to suggest pup can do all that sh*t at once, since it obviously can't. Self SC and dropping a 5k nuke, yea, but even that takes a sh*tton of practice, or sheer dumb luck, to get the timing right (Easiest way would involve having pre-stored TP on your puppet, then Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Vsmite -> Deploy -> Tactical Switch -> Vsmite->Thunder V, but I may have my order off, here, and I'm not really a fan of Vsmite for pup anyway, since Stringing Pummel is just as strong and easier to get because I'm an old@#%^ who completed nyzul before WotG came out). Pup's not a tank and never will be, we're just really good at not getting hit. What I was saying is that pup is able to swap between different roles quickly, to accommodate for sh*t that comes up, without needing to leave to change jobs. I personally take consideration of how quickly a pup can swap puppets into account when I judge how good a pup they are. I can do it in about a minute if I'm in on adrenaline rush and can stop moving without dying Smiley: laugh

Raelix wrote:
So while I made wide generalizations about PUP vs BLM, PUP vs RNG, PUP vs WHM, PUP vs DD, I thank you for taking the time to precisely affirm exactly what the **** I said beyond the specifics of the puppet having stronger single nukes but still losing overall. I'm being trite and objective because such things are as I know them to be, and still nobody as done anything but chide me while making no stipulations that what I stated was necessarily wrong.


You made wide, blatantly incorrect generalizations, and I was correcting them, because the spreading of blatantly false information is the number one reason why there are so many @#%^ing idiots who have no idea how to play their jobs. The puppet's AI has absolutely nothing to do with anything now, because it's almost entirely fixed, and the only things left are minor issues that bug us because they're inconveniences, but are left in because BALANCE. I'm not going to argue that pup could ever out heal a whm, because you know full well that the only thing that can out heal a whm is a better whm, but aside from that, sh*t is @#%^ing situational, and you know it. You're the one blatantly assuming only one single situation is at all relevant and absolutely no other situation could hold weight in the matter. Situationally, pups CAN out nuke blms. Situationally, pups CAN out pace rngs and other dds.

Raelix wrote:
This excuse of "X situation is bad for PUP" doesn't fly either, because it's turning into practically every situation at this rate, exactly as I stipulated earlier: Indeed PUP is competitive when other DDs are granted no buffs or brains at all!

Abyssea :"Bad for PUP!" Well yeah, it's bad for a lot of jobs and skews a lot of things. VoidWatch: "Zerg fights! Bad for PUP!" Not seeing how this makes PUP relevant to damage dealing since VW and other zerg fights are one of the core places where damage output actually matters.

So what then? Watch the puppet take 15 seconds to decide to cast a Tier 3 nuke to kill a mob that dies to any other DD in two melee rounds? Even in non-zerg situations (Solo, Original Nyzul, other assaults, ToAU missions, Add-on battles, pre- and post-rework Dynamis) I've seen nothing but PUP's lack of being able to focus their potential.


The problem is you're exaggerating excessively, and still don't seem to understand how the AI works at all. No one's trying to say every situation, I'm saying that the one single @#%^ing instance that you are demanding be the only relevant issue is the one that doesn't favor pup and no one's trying to argue that pup would win in that situation. Pup is not a @#%^ing zerg job and never will be. THERE'S A LOT MORE TO THE @#%^ING GAME THAN SUPERBUFFED ZERGS. Yes, right now, VW is the only real endgame, because legion and neonyzul are still fresh and haven't had their strategies figured out, which means that right now, the only endgame is a zerg heavy event. One, single event. The issue isn't that you're saying "Pup sucks because it's not a good DD" and we're saying "Pups not good in endgame events, that doesn't mean it's a bad job", The issue is that you're saying, "Pup's not good in Voidwatch" which we all @#%^ing agree with, but you're assuming that Voidwatch means "All endgame" because it's the only @#%^ing thing to do right now. Pup is not good in voidwatch, and it never will be. Pup was not good in Einherjar at 75, either. That didn't stop it from being a power house in other events that emphasized its strengths. One event =/= Endgame. One Event = One Event.

Raelix wrote:
Other contention: You listed DRK amongst jobs that have almost no survivability, which is a major hangup of mine because that's more relative to how stupid most DRKs are that they can forget they have two stuns and the most powerful defensive spell in the game. We are kindred spirits that our favored job is bastardized by most of the people playing it. That's for another day though.

Ok, totally my bad there, I completely forgot about stun/dreadspikes/drain/II, for some reason. I blame brainfarts.

Raelix wrote:
But what do I know? I've only been hanging around a shell full of these unique snowflake types the whole of my time on Diabolos and Siren, and though you do know me to be a person of high caliber analysis and tracking, I must just be pulling all of this out of my **** huh?

The main issue I have with what you're saying is that you're making blanket assumptions and silly arguments that about the one situation where pup doesn't shine and assuming that it applies across the board, which is @#%^ing beneath you. You're smarter than that, which is why it bothers me.

tl;dr,
What you're saying, "Pup's not good in one single event that caters to pure DDs and doesn't help the DDs that don't purely focus on damage, and because of that, it sucks."
What you seem to think we're saying, "No, pups good if you give it a bias, and weak the performance of other jobs!"
What we're actually saying, "We agree that pup's not good in that particular event, because that particular event has a heavy bias towards the pure DD jobs, which pup is not. If you reverse the situation, though, the opposite becomes true."

No one's trying to argue that pup doesn't suck compared to war/mnk/drg/sam/drk in VW. We're saying that there's more to being a DD than @#%^ing VW.

saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. @#%^, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game


I know a job that can do every last one of those things simultaneously without even skipping a beat and has used that fact to solo nearly everything in the game before SE made content either not soloable or not worth soloing. The community has laughed at that potential since 2004.

Not disagreeing with you, just saying being "versatile" is highly underrated in FFXI. It's always been about the absolute best-est best best at whatever content is currently "the thing to do". This is why you have a constant cycle of FoTM jobs.

Rdm doesn't even come close to the same potential for all three that pup and blue have, and it absolutely never has. It can be a decent nuker now that it has T4s, and it can be a decent healer again now with the healing update, and it was the top healer for a long time, but it's melee damage has always been complete garbage relative to any job that actually melees regularly; though still a step above melee smn. I don't disagree that versatility is highly underrated, but don't try to compare rdm melee to pup or blu melee, because it just doesn't make the cut. It's versatile, yes, but it's more meh~decent melee, meh~decent nuker, meh~decent healer. Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get **** for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 7:09pm by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#83 Apr 20 2012 at 2:27 AM Rating: Good
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Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get sh*t for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.


You just gave a rather large post berating Raelix about posting false info, then yourself post blatantly false info.

Did a bunch of number crunching between BLU vs RDM awhile back, and guess what ... BLU ended up 3~10% ahead depending on what your doing, basically did the BLU have a mule casting Dia II onto the target. Don't compare a 2005 RDM vs 2012 RDM, there has been a large increase in it's capability since then, mostly in the form of better gear and better self buffs.

RDM does get a nice sword WS, Requiscat tends to be viewed as crappy until you realize that it copies fTP and RDM has a metric **** ton of MND gear laying around. So much that it's better then CDC on everything except IT monsters / Abyssea. It was moten who pointed that out btw. Req easily beats out Vorpal in every situation outside of Abyssea. The fact that you even mention daggers at all proves that you've no idea what a proper melee build looks like, daggers currently have no place in it, not even with Exten. Req is 5 hits 1.2 fTP (with belt / gorget) 100% MND, with /NIN your talking 6 hits * 1.2 or 7.2 fTP worth of ~60~71 base DMG (Almace or fully upgrades Xcal) with 170 MND (no buffs), and that's without counting for DA's happening. Where Req get's crapped on is higher level targets with 600+ defense, then the attack penalty is so severe that you can't overcome it without outside buffs, and no body is going to have a RDM being buffed by a BRD or COR. Also while people may laugh at enspell's ~30 damage, it ends up adding about 12~15% to your damage which is a pretty big percentage for such a small self buffs.

Temper was a straight 20% DA, that is what's largely responsible for closing the gap between RDM and BLU in melee damage. BLU is still slightly ahead but RDM remains more versatile as their not limited by set points. Where RDM loses the most is in big zerg fights, the exact same place the other hybrid jobs lose for the exact same reasons, you have more then enough specialization present that you don't need versatility. And RDM now crush's WHM completely, you still thinking 2005 Blessed +1 WHM vs SH BD RDM. RDM has better gear, better weapons, and better self buffs.

The whole point of my post was to mention that everything you listed RDM has been able to do since 2004/2005, and the community ignored it just like their ignoring PUP / BLU / DNC's versatility now. And while you fought for PUP you demonstrated that your just as much of the problem as your spreading the same ignorance about RDM that others have spread about PUP.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 8:56am by saevellakshmi
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#84 Apr 20 2012 at 6:01 AM Rating: Default
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... In pure melee damage, on fodder mobs.
#86 Apr 20 2012 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
The best damage dealer in any and all situations is PUP, I don't care what anyone says.


That's really not helping matters...

I'd love it as much as anyone else who plays PUP if this was true, but it's not. It's not true for any job. (I'm ignoring the fact you said this just to get a reaction from the others here)

Zelduh wrote:
Show me proof that your bandwagons jobs will beat an equally geared/skilled/buffed PUP. I want to see numbers. Don't have any? Yeah, that's why they're meaningless. No one ever actually produces them, just anecdotal evidence of "lol guise, this one pup in my party did like, 50 damage, and kept missing, and he was half naked lolol! pup suuuucks! omg look at my damage *stroke stroke* I'm so hardcore compared to pup"


The same could be said about any job...

I play PUP because I enjoy playing it. Simple as that.
I also enjoy playing BLU and SCH, and along with PUP these 3 have been my favourite jobs to play for years now, simply because they keep me engaged and interested with more than just auto-attacking, pushing a few JA's when the timers are up, and WS'ing when I have TP

I even prefer playing SCH over WHM or any of the other mage classes.

And given all that bias I know none of those jobs are ever the best at everything.

Edit: when, not with

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 8:34am by Xakz
#87 Apr 20 2012 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
The best damage dealer in any and all situations is PUP, I don't care what anyone says. Show me proof that your bandwagons jobs will beat an equally geared/skilled/buffed PUP. I want to see numbers. Don't have any? Yeah, that's why they're meaningless. No one ever actually produces them, just anecdotal evidence of "lol guise, this one pup in my party did like, 50 damage, and kept missing, and he was half naked lolol! pup suuuucks! omg look at my damage *stroke stroke* I'm so hardcore compared to pup"


Dude if you and your puppet were on my server, I'd totally offer to go head to head with you on my WAR. I'm not even an Empy WAR, just a Vermeil Bhuj one that rides the JA timers like I'm on RDM and has little regard for my own personal safety.

I say this with the utmost respect to the full metal PUPs I've known over the years. In fact, I was looking through old Dynamis parses last night, trying to find someone I knew was on PUP who was in the top 3, just to help you out and give you your **** numbers, but now I don't want to bother. Smiley: oyvey

PUP is a hybrid job. Hybrid jobs will rarely be the top damage dealers in all situations. That's not the point of the job.
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#88 Apr 20 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
The best damage dealer in any and all situations is PUP, I don't care what anyone says.


This is FFXI and PUP is a pet job. The day PUP comes anywhere close to being top DD is the day Tanaka nerfs PUP straight into the center of a black hole from which they will never escape.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 10:01am by Camiie

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 10:01am by Camiie
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#89 Apr 20 2012 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just stop will ya zelduh?

You are just a caricature at this point and you are doing no one a service. Not the ppl that like playing PUP or the ppl who think that PUP is garbage. You are just playing the role of the second-rate troll who is stirring up mess for the sheer joy of it.

As i've been told by the admins, trolling ain't against the rules per se. So aside from trying like mad to rate you to hell, i'd like to say this you ya - and its from the heart

STFU Zelduh!!!!



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#90 Apr 20 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:


Dude if you and your puppet were on my server, I'd totally offer to go head to head with you on my WAR. I'm not even an Empy WAR, just a Vermeil Bhuj one that rides the JA timers like I'm on RDM and has little regard for my own personal safety.

I say this with the utmost respect to the full metal PUPs I've known over the years. In fact, I was looking through old Dynamis parses last night, trying to find someone I knew was on PUP who was in the top 3, just to help you out and give you your **** numbers, but now I don't want to bother. Smiley: oyvey

PUP is a hybrid job. Hybrid jobs will rarely be the top damage dealers in all situations. That's not the point of the job.


Hey, I resemble that remark. Not only was I always in the top 3 on PUP, I even made it to the top slot on several trips, once versus an amano SAM.

Was it because PUP was top DD?

No, it wasn't.

It was because I worked my **** off paying attention to what was going on, had the right attachments for the job and the right maneuvers up when they needed to be. It was because I engaged the mob as fast as possible to get every hit in I could get in. In short, it was a hella lotta work. And THAT is what makes the top DD in this game. It's not about gear (well, in a smaller part it is)...it's mostly about the player behind the job that cares enough to play the job the way it plays best or at least **** close to it. The good(or any for that matter) player on the worst DD job in the field will always outperform the best geared player standing around in Port showing off their gear.

And what makes this happen? I mean, what contributing factor counted the most for the good results? My thoughts and I think Catwho will agree, is that we were mages first (specifically main healers and not curebots). We cut our teeth on paying attention and managing the job, working fast or sweeping up the pieces later. We research mobs in advance to know their weaknesses and strengths and we pay attention, even anticipate their actions as they happen and adjust on the fly. Our /ja and /ws go off just the second they become ready unless the mob is absorbing damage in which case we are the first ones with our backs to it. From us you never hear a "lol oops", you get a "GDI !" when we **** up because we know better and it hurts when we phail (loldrunkbard excluded).

So to answer the OP's question, which is somewhere in this thread... the best DD job is the one you work at playing the best. After all, it's a game, have some fun.


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#91 Apr 20 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#92 Apr 20 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Pup's biggest issue has been, and always will be, the combined effect of it drawing in the "I wanna be a unique snowflake!" players and the fact that the job requires a much higher level of dedication and practice to play well than said players are ever willing to put forth. There's no such thing as an average pup. 90% of them suck horribly. The other 10%, however, that actually know how to play the job, are some of the best players in the game, both when they're on pup, and when they're on other jobs, because the practice and dedication required to play pup well carries over to other jobs. "Pup sucks because the people who play it suck" is not a valid argument, and it's the only one you can really make in any situation that isn't high haste zerging, which will never be pup's forte, and any half-intelligent pup knows that.


That sums up PUP perfectly (RaiseIII's post is spot on as well). Don't hate the job, hate the player.

I know the considerable strengths of the job, and even I am wary to take the risk of inviting some random PUP to an event because there are so many of the "unique snowflakes" Jinte mentions. Odds are that same player is just as bad at MNK/SAM/DRK/WAR, but it's a lot easier to cover for lack of brains/skill in those jobs as long as you have adequate gear. So I don't begrudge people at all for being uncomfortable inviting a PUP since you might not know what you're going to get. Taking a MNK who turns out to be dumb is less of a liability than taking a PUP who turns out to be equally dumb. But if you do get a good PUP, they'll stomp the **** out of a lousy [pick other DD here].

Though in a way, that should also be a little frustrating for good players of those other jobs. You know it irks you a little bit when some moron without a clue gets an 85empy on a DD job you love and that becomes their ticket to invites. It's a little disappointing to me that the gap between my well played MNK and the average braindead player's MNK isn't larger. Or that my THF that makes the most of the job's DD potential is viewed as the same as the guy who just hits the mob for TH and does a fraction of my damage. There is something rewarding about knowing that on PUP, the gap between me and the average PUP is big enough to make people comment on a regular basis.

So all I will ask the non-PUPs out there is to try to understand that when played WELL, PUP can be a great DD for non-zerg fights right up there with the best of them. If you know someone who is a good player who wants to use PUP in a DD situation, give them a chance. And if you want to tell the random person who you can't vouch for to come WAR/SAM/MNK/DRK instead, I completely understand.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 2:12pm by Anza
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#93 Apr 20 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wish I could rate you up more than once.


This. Also yes to loldrunkbard
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#94 Apr 20 2012 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Okay guys, enough with the bashing back and forth.

Zelduh, you've been saying that other people don't supply the evidence to support that PUP is a less than stellar DD, but you've yet to supply any evidence yourself to show why you believe they are the best. If you want to try and convince people about your beliefs, you need to do it in a calm and rational manner, not just start berating them because your opinion differs from theirs. Even one of the best, well geared, most knowledgeable Puppetmasters I know of (Jinte) just pointed out that Puppetmaster falls short of the true DD, and she's one to not say that out of personal bias, but rather straightforward number crunching. Just because she didn't post said numbers doesn't mean that they don't exist. So I say this, if you want people to believe that they're as good as you say they are, then prove it with empirical data, not just spout out declarations without any way of proving it.

As for everyone else, do I even need to say it? Just don't start flaming or trolling one another.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2012 2:40pm by Vlorsutes
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#95 Apr 20 2012 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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RaiseIII wrote:
Hey, I resemble that remark. Not only was I always in the top 3 on PUP, I even made it to the top slot on several trips, once versus an amano SAM.

Was it because PUP was top DD?

No, it wasn't.

It was because I worked my **** off paying attention to what was going on, had the right attachments for the job and the right maneuvers up when they needed to be. It was because I engaged the mob as fast as possible to get every hit in I could get in. In short, it was a hella lotta work. And THAT is what makes the top DD in this game. It's not about gear (well, in a smaller part it is)...it's mostly about the player behind the job that cares enough to play the job the way it plays best or at least **** close to it. The good(or any for that matter) player on the worst DD job in the field will always outperform the best geared player standing around in Port showing off their gear


And just because it's you Shade, here's one where Comedie kicks ass. Dec 14th, 2010, Dynamis Windurst. Shadechaos + Comedie total 8.75%, come in second, only behind Keio the calling BLM. (Catwho does not appear on the parse because Catwho was a pulling bard and all we do is sleep and die. Hehe.) Clemmy, Sociologist, Jainus, and Razorx on BST mean that teasing out the comparable damage from the other pets is hard (29.34% between all four BST and the pets, for an average of 7.335.) Firewing added a small bit to Laverda on DRG as well. Catacomb is on MNK. Seichi is on DRK.

What you see in these numbers is some of the very best DDs of their classes, in a situation where it's still "kill them all before they kill you" and there's no waiting around to proc stuff.

And RaiseIII, probably the best **** PUP on Bismarck, still can't beat out the suicidal BLM Keio.

QED: PUP can be a good DD. PUP is not the best DD in all situations.



Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
Catacomb                119551     7.89 %       81991           0         275       34982           0       2303 
Clemmy                    9949     0.66 %        8415           0           0        1451           0         83 
Darkseeker                  21     0.00 %           0           0           0           0          21          0 
Diagaro                  17029     1.12 %        7739           0           0        9290           0          0 
Gaspee                   57316     3.78 %           0           0           0           0       57316          0 
Gez                      41955     2.77 %       27767           0           0       14188           0          0 
Greatbob                 23234     1.53 %       17173         855           0        5206           0          0 
Jainus                   50167     3.31 %       20961           0          24       26453        2335        394 
Keio                    156061    10.30 %         125           0           0           0      155838         98 
Kitkit                   79477     5.25 %       63690           0         290       15380           0        117 
Lahurah                     29     0.00 %           0           0           0           0          29          0 
Laverda                  95841     6.33 %       52143           0         317       28318         192      14871 
Majordragonbaby          33943     2.24 %        9742           0        5607       18594           0          0 
Mingtae                   4872     0.32 %           0        4296           0         530           0         46 
Onatowa                  14540     0.96 %           0           0           0           0       14540          0 
Psychofetrus             47845     3.16 %           0           0           0           0       47845          0 
Razorx                   69374     4.58 %       42698           0           0       26676           0          0 
Rizil                    83222     5.49 %           0           0           0           0       83222          0 
Seichi                  103929     6.86 %       48632           0          48       48290        3512       3447 
Shadechaos               73514     4.85 %       49760           0           0       23681           0         73 
Sirflaw                     25     0.00 %           0           0          25           0           0          0 
Sociologist              11164     0.74 %        8676           0           0        2442           0         46 
Yamisam                  27539     1.82 %       26944           0           0         595           0          0 
Comedie                  59145     3.90 %        9663       25089           0       20306        4087          0 
Diabolos                  1025     0.07 %          77           0         948           0           0          0 
Firewing                  4701     0.31 %        2855           0        1846           0           0          0 
Garuda                   10707     0.71 %         683           0       10024           0           0          0 
Leviathan                 3474     0.23 %         699           0        2775           0           0          0 
NurseryNazuna            59739     3.94 %       52903           0        6795           0           0         41 
Shiva                     7755     0.51 %         741           0        7014           0           0          0 
SwiftSieghard           243985    16.11 %      221569           0       22372           0           0         44 
Titan                     1079     0.07 %        1079           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Compression            341     0.02 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Detonation             711     0.05 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Fragmentation          382     0.03 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Impaction              319     0.02 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
SC: Reverberation          803     0.05 %           0           0           0           0           0          0 
Total                  1514763   100.00 %      756725       30240       58360      276382      368937      21563


Edited, Apr 20th 2012 4:28pm by catwho
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#96 Apr 20 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
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50:50 DRK in 2010 in Dyna Windurst isn't convincing me. In fact it reeks of slack and 7-hit.
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There's always...not trolling him?

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#97 Apr 21 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
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Make entirely factual and relevant observation pertaining to the job I'm vastly intimate with and get ratebombed.

I like where this is going guys. Red Arrows are the secret to DD PUP taking over.
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#98 Apr 21 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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That particular DRK is also a Tarutaru and spent a lot of each run dead.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#99 Apr 21 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
That particular DRK is also a Tarutaru and spent a lot of each run dead.

That'd be strike 2. You may as well just not heal anybody and have the PUP solo everything, then it'll be top DD for sure!

I was incredulous towards their build, TP:WS split, and effort, but remember what I said earlier about how most 'meh' DRKs forget they have two stuns and the best defensive spell in the game to go with two Drains and two Aspirs? Smells like that too, particularly in double-dark weather Dynamis.

Now I can even point out the missing Endark damage from roughly 150-200 melee swings. 3k spell damage is probably both Drains once each and maybe a Dread Spikes or a single application of Endark tops.

To say "some of the very best DDs of their classes" of this DRK is bordering on an insult at this point. It's not that they're missing Apoc or Liberator or even a lolEmpy (I'd expect this out of an 80-85 Redemption owner actually), but that they're blowing the very basics of the job in an event that should be a happy hunting ground for them.

Post the Melee portion of the Offense summary please? That could answer many questions.

Edited, Apr 21st 2012 9:02am by Raelix
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Nilatai wrote:
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There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#100 Apr 21 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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And this is why I wasn't going to post a parse originally. I'm not going to get into an argument over whether members of a Dynamis shell that no longer exists were doing their job right or not. I'm not going to start arguing numbers about DRK for a person who doesn't even play much any more. I'm not going to go digging through my parses to find a time when that particular DRK topped the parse, which he did on more than one occasion.

This was an example to show what RaiseIII was talking about - that a good player can indeed take PUP to levels that embarass lesser DDs - but it's almost impossible for the best PUP to beat out the best in class on a job that specializes in damage.

If you want to go dig up a parse that shows how a DRK ought to be performing to prove your point, by all means go for it. I'm done.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#101 Apr 21 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get sh*t for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end.


You just gave a rather large post berating Raelix about posting false info, then yourself post blatantly false info.

Sorry, I guess my sarcasm glands have atrophied a bit due to recent lack of use, I was being excessively false for the sake of the lolddrdm meme. Thought I came through clear Smiley: dubious

Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
Okay guys, enough with the bashing back and forth.

Zelduh, you've been saying that other people don't supply the evidence to support that PUP is a less than stellar DD, but you've yet to supply any evidence yourself to show why you believe they are the best. If you want to try and convince people about your beliefs, you need to do it in a calm and rational manner, not just start berating them because your opinion differs from theirs. Even one of the best, well geared, most knowledgeable Puppetmasters I know of (Jinte) just pointed out that Puppetmaster falls short of the true DD, and he's one to not say that out of personal bias, but rather straightforward number crunching. Just because he didn't post said numbers doesn't mean that they don't exist. So I say this, if you want people to believe that they're as good as you say they are, then prove it with empirical data, not just spout out declarations without any way of proving it.

As for everyone else, do I even need to say it? Just don't start flaming or trolling one another.


She.

Raelix wrote:
Make entirely factual and relevant observation pertaining to the job I'm vastly intimate with and get ratebombed.

I like where this is going guys. Red Arrows are the secret to DD PUP taking over.


lolkarma.

Now, because I'm bored and have nothing better to do on a saturday evening, I'm going to go crunch some numbers and then prove both my points; 1: zelduh's being stupid, and 2: pup not being a zerg job does not automatically mean it sucks as a dd. Be back in a few hours with some generalized spitball numbers to account for a number of different scenarios to prove my points.

Changed my mind. There's way to much to account for in this math such that it satisfies everyone, and I really don't even give half a **** I give about a **** which is enough to chatter about it, but not enough to motivate me to keep fiddling with these numbers when I could be doing something more entertaining.

Edited, Apr 21st 2012 9:09pm by Jinte
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