********* people... so much stupidity from both sides... Laxedrane lit the Jintesignal, so let me see if I can't dumb this **** down for the whole lot of you that can't comprehend what Anza and co. have already covered. Prepare for a massive wall of text because I haven't posted in a while and I get backlogged if I don't post frequently (and you guys know how big my posts tend to be when I'm posting frequently....
Firstly, though. Zelduh. Do us (pups) all a favor, and shut the **** up. Please. You don't seem to have any real understanding of anything you're talking about, you're just parroting ****, which is, in my eyes, absolutely no better than the retarded full AF/eva gear campaign pup/dncs from pre-abyssea. I'm revoking your "Pup Advocacy" rights for the foreseeable future, until you sit down and take the time to actually read, learn, and comprehend what it is you're trying to defend. If you don't do that, you'll just make it worse for the rest of us.
lolwat. Someone was saying other DDs are DDs because they can make self-skillchains or something, when PUP can easily do it as well. But a lot of PUP's damage comes from good DoT, including the puppet. DON'T FORGET THE FREAKING PUPPET. IT EXISTS. IT DOES DAMAGE. A LOT.
Tossing numbers around is pointless, if you have half a brain and know how PUP works at all it's not hard to figure out how PUP can put out good damage. Use your head. PUP has plenty at its disposal to give it an edge over MNK. If you don't think an automaton can make up for B+ skill instead of A+ and a few JA tools MNK has, you're sadly mistaken.
This is why your rights are revoked. Tossing numbers is only pointless if the people tossing them don't understand them, or how to properly toss them. Also, you know as well as I do that most players don't have half a brain, and this goes doubly for pup, given the type of people the job attracts. Between an equally geared, equally intelligent pup and mnk, the mnk will almost always win. It has nothing to do with skill rank difference or available tools. The reason is that in terms of damage potential, mnk's potential in a given situation is simply about 100x easier to achieve, and is higher over all, so even when the pup has a lead in terms of both gear and intelligence, the mnk can still keep or outpace them. The difference has to be significant for the pup to win. I know this from personal experience. Mnk is a pure DD. Pup is not. Pure DDs will always win in terms of "most damage out put" because damage output is all a pure DD is ******* good at. Pup is a real DD, the same as a mnk, but it is not a pure DD, and you need to stop fooling yourself into thinking it is.
It's an average DD until the puppet gets killed by AoE, then it's a supergimp MNK while they chew on JA delay or have to move out of range trying to get it back up.
"Has access to great DD tools" does not mean it can apply them steadily and readily for that matter. Puppets are still rock-stupid. If you're talking about PUPs with Vereth, they'd do more damage by switching to MNK main.
PUP is good for free powerful nukes, ranged damage on enemies with powerful but <10' AoEs, or making old content laughably easy to solo with Valoredge and cannibal blade. You're assuming that because PUP is some godlike machine of death in one area, that it can do all these things better than jobs dedicated to such.
A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ***).
A real DD will outdamage any puppet and the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.
PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.
You're confusing PUPs POTENTIAL, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.
Raelix, I realize that you're responding to Zelduh here, but you're just as ******* stupid (in this post. I normally consider you of being fairly intelligent), because you're making it absolutely clear that you have no idea what the **** you're talking about.
Let me break it down for you. A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
No. Absolutely wrong. Between an equally geared blm and pup the pup will always hit harder on a single target nuke, because pup has soooo much more MAB available. If the two are equally geared, even with full thunder potency merits, the pup will still hit harder with Thunder V. It's a lot
closer now than it was at 75, mind you, and if the two are totally decked out, the blm may be able to pull ahead (I don't know the numbers for how the final ToM thunder staff compares off the top of my head). That said, in terms of totally damage, the blm will win, IF HATE IS A NON ISSUE, but that has nothing to do with the puppet's AI, and everything to do with the relative RATE of damage. Pup has always been the hardest HITTING nuker, but at the same time, it is also the slowest by a wiiiiiide margin, because the pet gets no native fast cast, and to max out damage, one can't use the one fast cast attachment we get. A FAST nuking pup can drop triple ice Thunder Vs every 20-30 seconds (depending on over all maneuver gear and overload rate), but no faster, if they want full damage. However, if hate is a major issue, pup's ability to continuously pump out those 20-30 seconds nukes without ever needing to stop due to hate will make them the winner in terms of damage by a wide margin. Of course, this is purely damage, and doesn't take into account AoE situations, because it's obvious pup is absolutely useless for those. Additionally, utility spells are not necessarily an issue, because pup/sch is a very viable option in a lot of situations, especially ones where melee isn't advised, and we do get a ******* of decent mage gear. Can we sleepga II? no. Can we handle popping off a sleep/ga with decent accuracy for an add or two? no problem. A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
The only reason a rng will outdamage sharpshot is because sharpshot is a pet and has its damaged reduced by that fact. Sharpshot's AI is not stupid in the least. A well geared pup will have sharpshot pumping out so much damage that it is always in danger of pulling hate, and it's the one frame that hate is always an issue with. You make it pretty clear that you don't realize that the ranged puppet should NOT be standing at range. If the pup using it has their rng puppet standing back at range the entire fight, they're ******* stupid. Yes, its ranged attacks are slow (The changes to drum magazine helped with this, a lot), but the strength of it is that it functions exactly like a pre-rng nerf rng. It melees for TP, and it's not hard at all to get its accuracy up to decent levels. Sharpshot, and valoredge as well, have two serious advantages over players. level correction. i.e. they more or less ignore it, even without the attachments. Additionally, they can fight while moving, and almost never have the "the target is out of range" issue. This is why, back before kirin was 30secondzerged (at 75) a well geared pup's Valoredge would consistently be the top DD on a kited kirin fight. Also, for the record, and you should ******* realize, KKK does not necessarily denote an uber pup. Highly likely? yes. Absolutely? **** no. A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ***).
A real whm can out heal a full party of rdms and schs. Real whm is ******* OP. That said, with the major improvement to the puppet casting AI, and combined with /sch or /whm, a pup can easily keep pace with, and probably
out heal, a rdm or a sch playing healer. I say probably because none of us actually care enough to do it, and it does actually take a good bit more concentration on the pup's part than it would for the rdm or sch. Pup healing is sort of like blu healing. We've always been decent at it (blu was better, before. Now we're about even), we just refuse to let anyone actually know that.
DD will outdamage any puppet and
the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid
and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.
Absolutely false anywhere except pure R/M/E user heavy buff zergs, and even then, if the pup has KKK, isn't retarded, and knows how to play the job to its strengths in that given situation, they're very competitive. The only
reason pup falls behind in high end zergs is because of maneuvers causing JA lag. Pup is totally capable of getting 26% gear haste, on top of martial arts boosts, and the pet DOES have haste available and useable. The higher the haste, the worse the pup will perform. The only reason you see people on BG hating on pup is because in regards to DDs, they're always talking about nigh-haste cap level zergs and almost nothing else. At low-moderate haste levels, JA lag is almost a non-issue, and a competent pup is absolutely capable of keeping pace with, or out doing, any other equally geared DD. Also, I'm just going to completely ignore the stupid sitting on TP **** because that's silly and a blatant exaggeration based out of ignorance. Puppets only sit on TP with a specific attachment set (that almost no one uses outside of sometimes while solo) and even then won't hold it to 300. Yes, the puppet will hold TP occasionally, but they average WSing around ~120TP, and they don't TP at a snail's pace. PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.
You're confusing PUPs [b]POTENTIAL
, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.[/b]
Pup's greatest failing has never been the AI. It was a major issue for the mage pets for a long time, but it's NEVER been the biggest issue. Pup's biggest issue has been, and always will be, the combined effect of it drawing in the "I wanna be a unique snowflake!" players and the fact that the job requires a much higher level of dedication and practice to play well than said players are ever willing to put forth. There's no such thing as an average pup. 90% of them suck horribly. The other 10%, however, that actually know how to play the job, are some of the best players in the game, both when they're on pup, and when they're on other jobs, because the practice and dedication required to play pup well carries over to other jobs. "Pup sucks because the people who play it suck" is not a valid argument, and it's the only one you can really make in any situation that isn't high haste zerging, which will never be pup's forte, and any half-intelligent pup knows that. The problem is that all the other DDs don't realize that there's a LOT more to being a DD than high haste zergs. No, Abyssea and VW haven't helped that at all, and have effectively forced that as the only "real" endgame content for the time being, but you know for a fact that with tanaka in charge, there's no way in **** that will stay the status quo now that the 99 cap has bee hit. Pup has always been at its strongest in events where it's variability is a huge asset, like Dynamis, Limbus, or Salvage, not zerg events like Einherjar/VW.
How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. ****, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game
The PUP apologists aren't making the job any more relevant to the intent of the thread. I just made the assumption the puppet was waiting for the master every time because their WS rates always seemed a near match (this may also be because this was single digit counts per fight compared to the tens or twenties of WS of real DD). The Sharpshot's accuracy was horrendous too, like 65-70% even just on the tier 2 Zilart we were doing (this wasn't the KKK PUP btw).
And my AoE reference was mostly because you can't use Fanatics/Fools on a puppet, which is a major sticking point in VWNM.
But I get it. PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM... and none of the other DDs are getting haste or marches or are even above decent. I think I covered most of what was said.
That's a lot of 'ifs' and work to be average. Enough effort to put any other DD into such a top tier to make said PUP look pathetic. Please stop this tirade.
If I were to list the jobs not eligible for this thread, I would likely list PUP first, even after considering BST, DNC, maybe THF and NIN, and all before even getting into the vagueness of melee vs. ranged vs. magic DDs or negotiating inside or outside of Abyssea.
I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that PUP is never the top DD in any situation. PUP does a lot of things pretty good, but bringing it up in a 'Best DD' thread was stupid from the beginning.
Edited, Apr 10th 2012 5:55am by Raelix
"Best DD Job" is the topic. "Best DD job in Absolute perfect conditions in a single type of fight" is not. Pup is not the best DD job in high-haste zerg fights, or fights where you have to rely on fools/fanatics, and no one worth listening too would every say that it is. However, it is not even close to being the worst in those situations, either (and I'm not talking about non melee jobs, I mean among all melee DDs). It doesn't suck. It's not the "absolute most damage output" job, but it is arguably the "most flexible and great at putting up solid DD numbers in the widest range of situations" job, though it competes pretty heavily with blu for that, so it's hard to say which one really takes it. Pup is an above average DD in any situation that isn't a competition between R/M/E mnks/wars/sams with the absolute best gear and capped haste, and even then, it's not even remotely close to the worst. Besides, equally geared, an intelligent pup can usually
DD circles around thf, dnc, or bst. Especially bst. The only reason people take thfs and dncs over pups is because those two are relatively easier to play to the same level of ability, and offer TH/Haste samba respectively. Bsts, I love you, but you know full well you can't keep up most of the time. If the bst is using a high DD pet, they can keep up, but in a situation where the pet is going to get wasted often, a pup without their pet will manhandle a bst without their pet. Bst pets are just sturdier. Everything's situational, though.
One of pup's biggest strengths is that, if you ignore fools/fanatics situations, because those are just stupid to begin with (seriously, if you need to rely on temps, the fight is poorly designed, and you can't blame a player for that), pup is one of the top "survivor" DDs. Wars, Drks, Sams, Drgs, Rngs, Cors, Blms.... if they take hate, the only reason they can survive long term is due to cure spams from a whm, and even then it often requires having a good PDT/MDT/DT set to swap into, which can severely cut their damage output. Not uncommon that they die. You know who has the worst parse results in any fight that's not over in under 2 minutes? The DD who dies the most. Pup's most obvious strength is the ability to put out a good amount of damage with out ever pulling hate, but aside from that, they're tied with dnc for the 2nd highest natural evasion in the game, before shadows come into play, since both have B Eva skill and Eva Bonus IV. Nin's A- skill nets less natural evasion than the difference between it and dnc/pup and the eva they get from traits. Technically, dnc is #2 and pup is #3 since dnc has B+ skill, but the 6 skill difference is negligible at best. For those who don't know/can't remember/are too lazy to check, the caps are 417 (99nin), 404 (99dnc) and 398 (99pup), nin having a 13 skill lead on dnc, and a 19 skill lead on pup, but both pup and dnc having +60 eva from traits. 60 > 19.
You know guys, a bard can TOTALLY be one of the top damage dealers.
Totally and seriously.
Pay no attention to the WAR I use as my DD job, It's just there for pretend. My bard has 5/5 Extentorator and knows how to use it!
Well, the saying does
go "the BRD always wins the parse". I don't think they were talking about Twashbards though...
Just sayin', brd can be a pretty vicious DD when it wants to be. They've got the gear to pull it off. I always loved watching my brd friend melee solo **** like Kreutzet, Cactrot Rapido,or Ovni
********** LOVE YOU, BRUDAWG![/sm]
I apologize if I sounds like one of the PUPs who sends "macro'd essays" about the job at people, but I think that type of reaction shouldn't seem unexpected when so many people are utterly clueless about the job in the first place--many people have flat out told me "I know nothing about PUP." When PUPs explain things about the job, we don't have ill intent and we're not trying to annoy you--we're just trying to clear up the misconceptions about us.
Pretty much. People don't understand ****, so they think it sucks because someone else who didn't understand it told them it sucks. This spread, and became stuck, and is something pup will never live down. However, I should also point out that a lot of us older pups do the "pup doesn't suck god dammit" speeches almost entirely out of reflex at this point. I've been playing pup since 2006, and I've been giving those speeches since 2006. Doing something for 6 years sort is sort of habit forming...
Can this thread move on or just die already? This is going in circles because of one person's hardon for a job well established so far as an overcomplicated underperformer.
If you want it to die, you need to stop blatantly, and ignorantly, spouting off nonsense, and you also need to lose your holier-than-thou tone with the people trying to explain **** to you that aren't zelduh, and you need to lose it fast, because every one of them has demonstrated before that they have more than enough ability to completely destroy you in the numbers debate you're inciting, they're just being polite and civil. "It sucks because it sucks and no argument you make, no matter how well founded, will convinced me otherwise" is basically argumentum ad absurdum, though more specifically, it's more like "I don't care what you have to say, I'm right because I'm right even if I'm totally wrong." Pull your head out of your ***, please.