I love a good Jinte post, and yes I had the attention span for the whole thing, but this still irks me:
Lady Jinte wrote:
Okay, so where are the numbers? I lost my PUP vs. Zilart VW and many other parses when my RAID0 died.
You've not posted any numbers at all, either, not even spitballs. I cba to throw numbers into a debate that hasn't used them yet, especially when they aren't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I agree 100% that pup is not, has not been, and probably will never be, the job with the highest damage potential. What I was saying was that you can't @#%^ing argue "Yea but the puppet dies so it doesn't matter" when discussing "pure damage output" unless you also account for the pup not pulling hate constantly and the survivability of the other DDs you're comparing it with, as well as their relative changes in damage output when they take hate, which is the most common and aggravating flaw people use when trying to argue that pup sucks, and you yourself did it.
Yes, I know PUP has mechanics to produce pretty numbers, be it with nukes or skillchains, but just like a Rhongomiant DRG can drop a 3k Jump when their Empy+2 and ODD procs at the same time it doesn't really matter because you've usually gimped your total output (I just showed on BG that Rhon's AM1 ODD doesn't outweigh using Camlann's to proc it without at least two magical haste sources) to reach such e-peen.
If PUP could self-SC, drop 4k+ nukes, and tank mobs with impunity all at once we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it doesn't do all these things at the same time. I know enough about PUP that when someone tries to tell me it's competitive with Post-Abyssea DD I can call bullsh*t unless they start putting numbers, parses, and facts up, just like any other job.
I wasn't trying to argue the self SC bit at all. It's a handy toy but not something a good pup will rely heavily on. Also, I never tried to suggest pup can do all that sh*t at once, since it obviously can't. Self SC and dropping a 5k nuke, yea, but even that takes a sh*tton of practice, or sheer dumb luck, to get the timing right (Easiest way would involve having pre-stored TP on your puppet, then Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Ice Maneuver -> Vsmite -> Deploy -> Tactical Switch -> Vsmite->Thunder V, but I may have my order off, here, and I'm not really a fan of Vsmite for pup anyway, since Stringing Pummel is just as strong and easier to get because I'm an old@#%^ who completed nyzul before WotG came out). Pup's not a tank and never will be, we're just really good at not getting hit. What I was saying is that pup is able to swap between different roles quickly, to accommodate for sh*t that comes up, without needing to leave to change jobs. I personally take consideration of how quickly a pup can swap puppets into account when I judge how good a pup they are. I can do it in about a minute if I'm in on adrenaline rush and can stop moving without dying
So while I made wide generalizations about PUP vs BLM, PUP vs RNG, PUP vs WHM, PUP vs DD, I thank you for taking the time to precisely affirm exactly what the **** I said beyond the specifics of the puppet having stronger single nukes but still losing overall. I'm being trite and objective because such things are as I know them to be, and still nobody as done anything but chide me while making no stipulations that what I stated was necessarily wrong.
You made wide, blatantly incorrect generalizations, and I was correcting them, because the spreading of blatantly false information is the number one reason why there are so many @#%^ing idiots who have no idea how to play their jobs. The puppet's AI has absolutely nothing to do with anything now, because it's almost entirely fixed, and the only things left are minor issues that bug us because they're inconveniences, but are left in because BALANCE. I'm not going to argue that pup could ever out heal a whm, because you know full well that the only thing that can out heal a whm is a better whm, but aside from that, sh*t is @#%^ing situational, and you know it. You're the one blatantly assuming only one single situation is at all relevant and absolutely no other situation could hold weight in the matter. Situationally, pups CAN out nuke blms. Situationally, pups CAN out pace rngs and other dds.
This excuse of "X situation is bad for PUP" doesn't fly either, because it's turning into practically every situation at this rate, exactly as I stipulated earlier: Indeed PUP is competitive when other DDs are granted no buffs or brains at all!
Abyssea :"Bad for PUP!" Well yeah, it's bad for a lot of jobs and skews a lot of things. VoidWatch: "Zerg fights! Bad for PUP!" Not seeing how this makes PUP relevant to damage dealing since VW and other zerg fights are one of the core places where damage output actually matters.
So what then? Watch the puppet take 15 seconds to decide to cast a Tier 3 nuke to kill a mob that dies to any other DD in two melee rounds? Even in non-zerg situations (Solo, Original Nyzul, other assaults, ToAU missions, Add-on battles, pre- and post-rework Dynamis) I've seen nothing but PUP's lack of being able to focus their potential.
The problem is you're exaggerating excessively, and still don't seem to understand how the AI works at all. No one's trying to say every situation, I'm saying that the one single @#%^ing instance
that you are demanding be the only
relevant issue is the one that doesn't favor pup and no one's trying to argue that pup would win in that situation. Pup is not a @#%^ing zerg job and never will be. THERE'S A LOT MORE TO THE @#%^ING GAME THAN SUPERBUFFED ZERGS.
Yes, right now, VW is the only real endgame, because legion and neonyzul are still fresh and haven't had their strategies figured out, which means that right now, the only endgame is a zerg heavy event. One, single event. The issue isn't that you're saying "Pup sucks because it's not a good DD" and we're saying "Pups not good in endgame events, that doesn't mean it's a bad job", The issue is that you're saying, "Pup's not good in Voidwatch" which we all @#%^ing agree with, but you're assuming that Voidwatch means "All endgame" because it's the only @#%^ing thing to do right now. Pup is not good in voidwatch, and it never will be. Pup was not good in Einherjar at 75, either. That didn't stop it from being a power house in other events that emphasized its strengths. One event =/= Endgame. One Event = One Event.
Other contention: You listed DRK amongst jobs that have almost no survivability, which is a major hangup of mine because that's more relative to how stupid most DRKs are that they can forget they have two stuns and the most powerful defensive spell in the game. We are kindred spirits that our favored job is bastardized by most of the people playing it. That's for another day though.
Ok, totally my bad there, I completely forgot about stun/dreadspikes/drain/II, for some reason. I blame brainfarts.
But what do I know? I've only been hanging around a shell full of these unique snowflake types the whole of my time on Diabolos and Siren, and though you do know me to be a person of high caliber analysis and tracking, I must just be pulling all of this out of my *** huh?
The main issue I have with what you're saying is that you're making blanket assumptions and silly arguments that about the one situation where pup doesn't shine and assuming that it applies across the board, which is @#%^ing beneath you. You're smarter than that, which is why it bothers me.
What you're saying, "Pup's not good in one single event that caters to pure DDs and doesn't help the DDs that don't purely focus on damage, and because of that, it sucks."
What you seem to think we're saying, "No, pups good if you give it a bias, and weak the performance of other jobs!"
What we're actually saying, "We agree that pup's not good in that particular event, because that particular event has a heavy bias towards the pure DD jobs, which pup is not. If you reverse the situation, though, the opposite becomes true."
No one's trying to argue that pup doesn't suck compared to war/mnk/drg/sam/drk in VW. We're saying that there's more to being a DD than @#%^ing VW.
How many jobs are there that can swap between being a decent~moderately strong melee, a decent~moderately strong nuker, and a decent~moderately strong healer without having to leave the event and change jobs? Blu and Pup. Thassit. @#%^, how many jobs can drop a 1.5-3k ws and a 3-5k nuke (numbers based on the range of mob defense) at the same time? Also, if you know what you're doing, pup can be one of the best kiters in the game
I know a job that can do every last one of those things simultaneously without even skipping a beat and has used that fact to solo nearly everything in the game before SE made content either not soloable or not worth soloing. The community has laughed at that potential since 2004.
Not disagreeing with you, just saying being "versatile" is highly underrated in FFXI. It's always been about the absolute best-est best best at whatever content is currently "the thing to do". This is why you have a constant cycle of FoTM jobs.
Rdm doesn't even come close to the same potential for all three that pup and blue have, and it absolutely never has. It can be a decent nuker now that it has T4s, and it can be a decent healer again now with the healing update, and it was the top healer for a long time, but it's melee damage has always been complete garbage relative to any job that actually melees regularly; though still a step above melee smn. I don't disagree that versatility is highly underrated, but don't try to compare rdm melee to pup or blu melee, because it just doesn't make the cut. It's versatile, yes, but it's more meh~decent melee, meh~decent nuker, meh~decent healer. Whm melee is stronger than rdm melee by a wide margin, and they don't even get half the decent melee gear rdm does. Daggers suck for damage unless you're a thf or a dnc with the JAs to pump up their weak hits, and rdm doesn't get **** for sword ws. Obviously I'm excluding Almace rdms, because R/M/E is a totally different beast, and if you NEED one of them to even be more than decent, it only proves my point. I don't have a problem with DD rdms, so long as they don't try to convince me they're able to out damage any equally well geared/equally competent DD job, because the gear and competence needed to make DD rdm work is pretty high end. Edited, Apr 19th 2012 7:09pm by Jinte